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Scottrade info....just trying to do my part to the collective efforts going on amongst shareholders.
I called Scottrade today to talk to them about ballots, along with asking them 4 or 5 other follow up questions that would be considered part of With Catz Twilight Zone that he refers to.
They were completely clueless so my 4-5 twilight zone questions weren't even asked. In fact, they have no corporate actions department you can talk to, and said that they have a Re-Org department but you can't talk to them. The guy answering the phone was the only one you could speak with and he called "in the back" ( LMFAO, whatever the F%$# that means) to check on it.
Now since they probably haven't received the info from 5-10 biz days from Jan 13th, my call Im sure was premature and Im assuming they will have more insight once they have that, but I wanted to call today to at least see if they knew anything, and they don't. He said call Washington Mutual for the info. It's a complete clusterf%$# thus far.
Yep, there are some outside possibilities that still exist, but I think if those happen, you would have time to get back in or accumulate commons, don't think youd wake up and cant get in because the PPS is flying. I also think that logic is out the window when dealing with this judge. She botched the DIMEs ruling, and this isn't an even playing field in her court unfortunately. All IMO of course.
Voo, you need to realize something....Just because someone has a different opinion than you, doesn't mean they have an agenda or ulterior motives. There are people on here much smarter than I am and ever will be, in regards this case, which is extremely complex. I feel like I have a good grasp of where we currently are thru listening and analyzing some of the things I have picked up on thru them, so I pass that on in the event that it can help others be informed. Nothing more than that.
I may be wrong about the ultimate outcome of this case, but I sure as hell am not wrong about what is getting ready to happen with POR7.
Yep...and again, no disrespect.
I think for many, the U's hold a lot of sentimental value, and that is what a big issue is, they are hard to part with, they are like members of the family, lol. People have had them for so long, and believe in them so much that they don't want to say well just what if they still have a chance to blast off. It's like rooting for your favorite team and they are down 35 in the 4th quarter. Could they come back? Well.....about less than a 1% chance they will, but people don't want to miss the greatest comeback ever so they don't leave or turn the game off.
Me, I shut my TV off after POR7 came out and I know how Im voting, but I hope U's dont get totally wiped out, that would be terrible, but I think it's something people have to at least be aware of. All IMO of course.
Huh??? They will have a cap in the NewCo stock and commons wont???? And where do you surmise this from?
Why??? And why would you call anyone a sheep for dumping something that is worth less than something else once it converts. Unless you think the POR is going to be defeated, or their is going to be a short term PPS burst, please let me know why you back U's so much still.
And I like you Yanik, I'm not taking a personal shot at you. I know you have been in here fighting the good fight, but I just genuinely am curious as to why you would still accumulate U's at this point when they will convert into NewCo stock at a rate less than P's will????
OR Jack here is another option for you....You sell all your U's and convert them to Ps, because even if the split remains 70/30, your Ps convert into more NewCo shares than your U's do. It makes literally zero sense why anyone WOULDNT do this, but I digress....The only reason people held U's is for the lotto ticket aspect (and that's why I did too), but can people not see that U's are going to now either converted into NewCo stock, just as Ps are, or they are going to get devalued even less with a chance at extinction? Why even take that risk, the upside has left the building. There will be no more separate common class after this plan is confirmed, everyone will be equal as shareholders of the NewCo, so now it's just how many shares of NewCo stock will you have, and you can only get those shares by trading in your Ps,Ks, and/or U's.
I swear to god, this feels like people are running around here telling other people to leave because a Hurricane is on a direct path for your doorstep, and people are saying nah its ok, Ill ride it out!!!! Or like walking into Noah's arc with 3 cows. The bouncer at the arc says you can convert your 3 common cows into 2 common cows and get on the arc. "Well what if I dont want to". Well then we are going to slaughter 2 of your cows before you get on the boat. "Ok, just slaughter them, I'll get on the boat with 1!"
Barring a rejection of the POR, the end of this phase of our program is staring everyone in the mirror. It's not hard to see.
That's not what I meant by wiping themselves out. What I meant was, many P holders also own U's, therefore, many will have a decision to make on how they vote. And one option that will face P holders would be to vote NO with their Ps, in hopes that the judge changes the 70/30 split to a more favorable one for Ps. If that happens, then yes it could wipe commons out, hence my point of P holders also wiping themselves out if they also held U's. Their P's wouldn't be gone, but their U's would.
Of course if one were to do that, they would probably be better served selling all their U's before the vote and converting them to Ps, but I digress...
I actually feel sorry for you VOO and Im happy you got 1000 Ps recently so you aren't completely bent when this thing shakes out. You are starting to take on the persona of Matt Dillon in The Outsiders, and you know what happened to him in the end.
But please spare us with the voting advice until you can distinguish that Pacer isn't just the nickname of a basketball team from Indiana. Your bravado is going to cost some people their ass, including your own.
Yeah it sucks and nobody disagrees with you, and it's even worse for pre-seizure holders who got completely F$#@@ by these corrupt pricks BBBBBUUUUTTTTTT
This is where people need to stop with the Revolutionary War mindset and start using their brains. We would all like to go throw tea in the harbour, but the rules of this game have changed with POR7 and if you dont adapt to those rules, then you should take your $ out. There is no knocking out of the crooks in this disaster, it's not going to happen. You need to reload your ammo and re-focus it to help yourselves.
This is the most ironic part of this whole process....Commons are going to be wiped out, not by the debtors, but by the P's. And most all P holders will either be also wiping out themselves, or wiping out what their former selves once were, common holders.
I hope that people hellbent on holding U's really sit down and do some reading and studying this weekend if you still think you hold lotto tickets, because you dont anymore. And I say that from a loving place because I used to be completely holding commons.
Now excuse me while I go put on armour for the fire coming my way.
I am right there with ya Jack, and even more disturbed that he was posting under a yahoo name of Hammr6. WTF ???
And furthermore, I would like to pose a serious question to Don (fsshn) because you are operating under the premise that once we take control of the newCo, it's grow, merge, grow, merge, grow, merge providing the real value in the next 12-24 months. That confidence indicates that the person in charge of the NewCo would know what they F$#@ they are doing. That sure as hell doesn't sound like MW. This guy sounds like anything but, and they are more and more all in it for the carcass of cash that is left.
There is the school of thought (and hope) by some, that SG are these master strategists and this is a plot to trap the debtors where they want them and they have all these things lined up......then there is the school of thought that says nah, SG is completely clueless and what you see is what you are gonna get. I really want to and have believed the former, but there are very strong signs right now that point out the obvious on the latter.
What do you think Don? Even you have to step back and be concerned at how this has turned in the last week or so. I know I sure am.
Im glad that you submit this and for all the work you do.
To me, as much of a joke that this case has become, nothing is more of one than what these clowns bill the estate and are raping on a daily basis. From all the attorney fees to what they spend for lunch, it's a complete mockery and an embarrassment to the f'n forefathers for god sakes! Eat a f'n peanut butter and jelly sandwich you $#%holes. To hell with Occupy Wall Street, all someone needs to do is put what they take from the estate on a front page somewhere. With how much people are hurting and how pissed off people are, someone should just hammer them into oblivion on it. And someone should hammer the judge if she doesn't clawback almost all of it.
The entitlement and just absolute greed of Weil Goshal is disgusting.
Serious question....When does the law of common sense apply for all of the ridiculous fees the debtors bill the estate??? I mean with what is going on in the world, and how pissed off people are, why can the judge not just put a stop to it?
I think we are looking at another delay or no luck on mediation Dec 8th.
No, you are still single because you don't have any $$$ left to pick up any women and they don't want to sit in the dark with no electric or heat because you just went All In with the rest of your life savings on some WAMUQ!
However, I actually wasn't even referring to you, I was talking about the Chestwaxin New York Assassin who has 750K shares of pure, unadulterated commons, yet is handcuffed by a 15 post per day maximum. That paradox is one you can't put a comedic value on. Perhaps if this does hit big, he can get upgrade his iHub membership. Something that should really be BAUGHT.
But in all seriousness, I loved your post. It's far and away the best thing I think I have ever read on here, and that is saying something. You should flle something with the court asking for money from the estate for your utilities Rosen is probably going to bill the estate for the Xmas light bill in Times Square for the holidays anyway.
This board has gone completely insane, and it's all because we are post drunk because we all read every f'n one of them every day. Im pretty sure that if you took the people that read this board daily, and put us all in a thinktank after this ends, we would probably cure cancer and solve the genetic code. If you stare hard enough, you will see the settlement numbers in all the posts. That's the level this thing is on.
At this point, I would be happy with just one post from Cabroncita followed by drinks. You can find me down at the Regal Beagle with Larry, Jack, Mr. Furley, and Voodoo.
Ignoring all that has transpired, blindly going on what someone else invested in 2+ years ago, is not an investment style I happen to recommend.
2xs value x .06 is only .12...
we'll see if this even gets that high.
Catz...Thanks for the reply via PM. I don't have that anymore so I couldn't respond, but again thanks for the thoughts, much appreciated.
And so Uzual Suspect doesn't delete this offtopic post like he does everyone's but his own.....hey how bout those windfarms!
Catz...moving this discussion forward because I think a lot of people would like to hear your thoughts on this, I know I would.
Let's hypothesize that the GSA DOES in fact get killed here before the end of the year.
Is it fair to say that the GSA is our current Darth Vader, and IF it goes away...there is a good chance that most of the outcomes now favor all classes of equity, and in a potentially big way?
On a sidenote, one X factor that I personally think will come into play if this happens, that will neither logically make sense or even fit the math, is that the market will take the share price on a ride that will be substantial. Now when I say substantial, I am not talking about tens of dollars that will repay the people that owned this in the 40s. I am talking about perhaps up to a few dollars, which would be substantial for people that own at the current levels. And that is PURE SPECULATION on my end, but something that I think would happen.
If I may try and decipher this Wang Wang because I share the same spirit as you do, and hope you are right, but it's not that simple, and it's where I feel most people on this board are having trouble. Here is where the faction of guys like "With Catz" operate. (And I don't want to speak for him, but you have to somewhat respect his opinions, but they basically are saying: )
POINT A is bankruptcy court- Where we are now, and it's pretty simple math on what the recovery can be.
POINT B is District Court- It's where all the big $ will be, but in order to get there, we have to get rid of the GSA because it strictly states in there, and im paraphrasing, that there will be no district court, they get released from that. There is no Point B until Point A is passed.
While Im sure that the With Catz crowd has thought about scenarios on what and IF will happen when we move from Point A to Point B, they don't let their minds get there until it actually does, so they speak in the moment. Where many of the other crowd who are looking for big $$$ operate, is they automatically assume that we will be moving from Point A to Point B, and it's just a matter of time.
Neither side is either right or wrong, this is all speculation but clearly educated guesses can be made. And both sides are all lying if they say they haven't run all the scenarios. And that is why many people say, risk accordingly to what level you want to take on.
In a nutshell, owning Washington Mutual commons is like banging some skank without a condom on. Hey, you might not need it and be fine with it if you want to be reckless. You may also catch a disease and lose everything. Let's just hope for all of our sakes, that at the end of the day we are in a clean whorehouse and can have as much fun as we want. I think that is what everyone wants and has as the same goal, but the philosophies of how we get there are up for grabs and must follow a process based on what you believe.
Dale45 is a miserable human being who sends private messages to people he doesn't like. I wouldn't pay attention to him!
Thanks for that Radium, you were one of the ones I was hoping would respond. I know there are some others, I know Catz has some time in his hands and isn't busy enough, lol....Don always has good replies on these topics. Come on boys, and girls, keep them coming.
Let's speculate for a moment if you care to participate in this, because the reality is there are some fantastic minds on this board that do help a lot of people, and a lot of us would like to break away from the legal jargon and talk more in terms of compensation. I am man enough to not portray myself as this great expert, and am not to proud to ask for opinions. I have done my DD like everyone else but am not in the same stratosphere mentally as several on here when it comes to this case. Nevertheless, I feel like that doesn't make you less of an investor, so with that being said, what I would like to kick off in a debate for those of you who are pretty knowledgeable is WHAT ARE SOME POTENTIAL OUTCOMES FOR COMMONS?
And let's assume for a moment that this discussion is based on a positive outcome for commons, meaning we DONT HAVE TO DISCUSS AND LIST the worst case scenarios in which we all know exist. I will throw out some opinions of what some on here have already said and the reasons why, and feel free to add any I haven't covered, your opinions on what I have listed and what you think possibilities are, or any new potential outcomes that aren't listed. BUT MAINLY ELABORATE ON SCENARIOS. Also, I totally get that many will say it's better to own Preferreds, but since this is the commons board, I think it would be nice to get some scenarios out there that pertain to COMMONS. I certainly would love to hear all opinions and have a thinktank, extreme as many will be and regardless of what some will think are dead on or impossible. So please ELABORATE AWAY. I think this will be beneficial to many.
POTENTIAL OUTCOMES (ALL MY OR OTHERS IMO) THAT HAVE BEEN DISCUSSED ON HERE THE MOST:
1) THAT COMMONS WILL RECEIVE A MONETARY PAYOUT
The big argument here between the two camps on this board if you will, are that the YES CAMP says we are getting 2x or 3x an $8 offer that existed years ago. Others on the extreme scream out $30-$70 because the EC quoted a $30B number. Some say a dollar, some say a few.
The NO CAMP says this is not humanly possible because the numbers don't add up to that, and won't and can't in a BK court.
One not really talked about question I have however is what about the combo that both camps are right, but the market starts going crazy sensing an opportunity for commons to go up to a lot thinking that lawsuits or going after JPIG and FDIC in DC. Under that theory, how plausable is it for the commons to go up to $1,2,3,4,5, etc even if the numbers that we do know don't logically support it?
2) THAT COMMONS WILL RECEIVE NO COMPENSATION BUT THE NEW COMPANY
In this case, some questions are:
1) How many shares would each current common share be? Would it be a 1:1 ratio and the new co have 1.7B outstanding shares, or would it be more realistic to expect a split of 5:1 or 10:1?
2) What is the potential for the new company and the time frame it takes to get there? Some say this could hold the most value. Do you think that means dollars or tens of dollars?
3) Following on #2, if it is a newCo, what will the dynamics be, will there be a company come in to buy it to take advantage of the NOLS, etc?
4) What is the impact that the HFs would have on this. If they get their claims dismissed, is it beneficial for them to get on board with the new company and try to boost it as high as possible to recover $, which in turns benefits everyone, or do they try to napalm it?
3) THAT COMMONS RECEIVE A COMBO OF BOTH CASH AND THE NEW COMPANY
All the pros and cons are pretty much covered in #1 and #2.
Would love to hear any and all feedback to get a legitimate discussion going on potential outcomes, think this board needs to look into the positive, thats why we are all here, and at the end of the day, everyone deserves it, especially the ones who have been f'd the most and been here since the beginning of this atrocity.
He got warrants to purchase 700 MILLION common shares at $7.14 anytime in the next 10 years if he wants.
Seriously, is it that hard to read and due some DD vs just coming on a board and running your mouth and making stuff up. BOA is not being bought by JPM.
It's not, the rumors of BOA being bought by JPM can now go up in smoke as of today, in the form of Warren Buffet.
Keep in mind he now has warrants to buy 700 Million common shares at $7.14 of BOA over the next 10 years and Im sure he will exercise those rights in the future.
Which is exactly what I just said in my post. Not doubting their nobility, but that doesn't mean that supercedes the results of how bad some sounded.
Im sure I am not the only one that feels that way, but if you want to pretend it wasn't awful then go for it. If anyone from SG our other attornies representing us spoke like that, this place would be in full meltdown mode.
Shocked at how awful the Pro Se speakers are.
And let me preface this post by saying I think the Pro Se people involved in this case are great for the cause, and no doubt have helped a lot. I mean, arguably if it weren't for Nate Thoma, we wouldn't even be here today. So it's not a bash to say they suck or they don't know anything.
With that being said, it's baffling that the same people who sink so much time into crafting great written arguments and spend so much time on the case, fail to do the same on the SPEAKING part.
Now granted, the judge probably wasn't going to be swayed too much on Pro Se opinions yesterday but there was one example in particular where it could have hammered home a good point. Dorothea (sp?) Barr had an absolutely awesome point, in that she COULD NOT trade under the confidentiality agreement while being on the EC. This was powerful because it completely refuted what the hedgies were saying earlier about how it wasn't a big deal. She was also going at the end of the day, so it was a nice way to put the cherry on top of the EC sundae,. Unfortunately she was reading from a paper and stumbled her way through it. It just reeked of amateur hour and left some scratching their head that this lady was on the EC???? And I am sure she is great and that doesn't reflect her mental skills, but that unfortunately doesn't count when you get up and speak.
J Berg, wow, that sounded like a 3rd grader getting up and reading his book report for the first time. And again, I know his written arguemnt was great, but was possibly one of the worst read arguments ever. The content in it doesnt even matter since the delivery was so bad, it certainly lessened the impact of his message.
Look at how good Parker Folse and Art Steinberg was/are. The way you speak and deliver your lines, is just as important as the content. For the love of god, if Pro Se are going to ever speak again in this thing, please practice what you are going to say, be able to go off of memory, and make it meaningful. Take a public speaking class.
And again, Im sure some will blast me, and I realize they went to Delaware while I sat at home, but if you are going to bring the wood, step up your game and learn how to speak, because some of the speeches yesterday were almost unbearable to listen to, and really lost their impact because of how they were delivered.
You are wrong, Radium Soup is correct.
WOW. Google Kermit Kubitz. This is who we need to have as the face for Equity in the fight against the media to get the real story out.
Think this guy has some credibility after saving a girl's life and almost dying from it? That's a hero straight out of central casting.
Great Post and insight that hopefully more people will read and comprehend....
Some people on here like to play attorneys because they stayed at Holiday Inns, but it sometimes gets absurd hearing the same 3-4 posters question every single tactical move, especially when they aren't privy to the EC's lawyers strategies.
This case isn't being tried by some recent law school grad who now thinks they are Johnnie Cochran, or the weekend warrior from Smallville U.S.A, who can rip apart Seth Ard's voice inflection in between painting his fences and milking his cows.
Good lord people, things are going well. Sit back and enjoy the show.
Great job Dave. We didn't hear you the 3 other times you have told us this. Now get to the Tulsa Convention Center and get yourself some front row tickets to the Tulsa Rodeo with your $97.45 you made today. If you play your cards right you might even have some leftover to take the family to Western Sizzler.
Go for it. I mean Im getting a good laugh at a guy who has a Jimmer Fredette avatar. Was Scooby Doo not available?
You couldnt be more further from the truth if you think I'm a MM Larry, lol.....I'm on the same side as you and if you knew who Edmond Dantes was then you would know there are a lot of long WAMUQ'rs in MonteCristo trying to fill their bags with Jamie Dimon's gold.
So do you care to make a prediction on what the Us ultimately end up with? I won't hold you to it if you are wrong, just am interested to hear your thoughts on where it ultimately plays out at.
And can we start calling you Don "The Dragon" Wilson
I don't recall any specific quote just your overall tone made it sound like you weren't high on Us. I'm sure if you go to that board and read you can pick out the highlights. And again, I personally like your chart analysis and am not flaming, just always curious on the changing of tone and what leads one there. Not a whole lot of neutrality on this board, most seem hellbent in their stances one way or the other.
Dragon,
Are you optimistic and long on the U's or just looking to take advantage of mini runs? Reason I ask is you pretty much hammered and trashed the commons on the K's board last month and now you seem to be singing a different tune. Not a flame, just curious on what has made you change your mind?