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Duped you need to get your story straight,
you said totally different things in past posts......
Which one is the true one.
The BS you said about your dealings with the TAG is not true.
I called, I refer them to your assertions in this board, consider your assertions.
They confirmed what I said, if anyone will use the name of the office of the AG to broke out a deal, will get immediately dismissed and charged.
The only thing I can say: you are a liar.
You said that recouped your money what you invested.
Which one of your posts is true?
This has nothing to do with what I said. Is all about what you posted here. I guess that it must difficult to delete your own posts !!!!!! Containing contradicting statements!!!!!
Do you realize that your are not dealing with kids.
You must think that you are dealing with kids, we are adult people who had put thousands on dollars into TATF, and we so far are proving to be robbed of our money by the con artists at TATF.
Still waiting for your response to 2711.....
What do you mean by "doing great"
Does it means:
No one gets paid.
Website just keeps misrepresenting facts on plantation forestry.
Communication is awful at best.
Large amounts of unsatisfied investors with TATF.
ETC ETC ETC....in a few words,
your spamming will not eliminate TATF con job on people, and your lack of dealing with facts and avoid confronting your own incongruence, just adds one more sewage to TATF cesspool.
Still waiting for your response to 2711.......
You can hype as much as you please, TATF is still an awful way to steal people's money.
You said that all must use 25 years as the only year of harvesting isn't it?
And only 25 years no other harvest time.
What happens you don't agree with your own statements!!!!
Well tell us where in TATF (teak) projections there is anything about 25 years returns?
Using 20 years is based on TATF web site projection for teak page....
Which part of TATF projections you don't understand....
Remember post 2711. Do you have a problem covering the issues reflected in the post!!!!
Thus, you agree that TATF is scamming people.....
Reminding about your proposal....
You propose 25 years.....but there is a problem
TATF also also proposes 7 years 13 years 17 years and 20 years harvests......so your advice is:
Throw away all those TATF forecasts from its web site and if you want buy plantation teak: wait 25 years.
That is case you are making.
For that simple reason, the case you are making for TATF you are saying that TATF web site is deceptive. Simply put,
based in your statement, TATF should eliminate from its publicity all forecasts except the 25 year teak.
That is the case you are making. The return on investment for waiting 25 years will be around 4.2% per year. Consider the St. Louis Federal reserve metrics for inflation and present value of money.
In plain dollars your statement will look like this:
1) you cannot buy from TATF website 25 year teak.....see the site only 20 year final harvest!
2) Let's say 20 final harvest will be the only possibility for last year buyer. In that case:
Cost of buying the tree: $41
After 20 years based on TATF forecasts a tree will yield .81 cubic meters. That is a hell of a 20 year old tree!!!!! In fact hat is 50% bigger than FAO, USFS, ITTO research of farm grown trees.
Now let's use real numbers from the US Forestry database.
A 20 year old teak log will yield a gross of ~0.35 to ~0.41 per tree.
Based on the value of money the sale price will be around $102 gross per tree equivalent of today's dollars, now add TATF commissions you are left with $79 per tree.
So What you were saying? That TATF misleads people!!!!! You are right!
There is another problem, for at least 10 years, TATF was promoting 25 year harvests, for 2010 all that "disappeared" from their web marketing. Now we have a totally new deception in place....fast growing teak....You know that there is no scientific research done in what TATF is promoting as "new" it sounds to me like a reincarnation of the past deception.
The questions stand as asked in past posts......
Are you OK? you are moving to degrees etc....etc.....
Stay with me here.......let focus in the TATF scam and post 2711
Can you reply to message 2711.
Or it is too much for you......
If cannot respond, I have to assume you consider TATF a scam like many others.
I guess you were dupedbysteve yo can change your name to scamedbysteve
How many foresters and loggers do they have that you can count? Can you give us a number?
You have no clue ........or you are not too smart.
It seems the later is more appropriate based in your past comments.
Where do you find 25 year old tree for sale on TATF website? For that matter 30 year terms in the TATF contracts....you are so full of it that I can wait for your replies.
Do you realize that you contradict yourself every time you say something, and you avoid any factual discussion.
You are going to get away with your BS.
Can you name any of the professional loggers and foresters, considering that Steve claims to have more than 10 farms.
I guess he has a few of those in staff and it seems that you know it well!
Can you share it with us ?
You propose 25 years.....but there is a problem
TATF also also proposes 7 years 13 years 17 years and 20 years harvests......so your advice is:
Throw away all those TATF forecasts from its web site and if you want buy plantation teak: wait 25 years.
That is case you are making.
For that simple reason, the case you are making for TATF you are saying that TATF web site is deceptive. Simply put,
based in your statement, TATF should eliminate from its publicity all forecasts except the 25 year teak.
That is the case you are making. The return on investment for waiting 25 years will be around 4.2% per year. Consider the St. Louis Federal reserve metrics for inflation and present value of money.
In plain dollars your statement will look like this:
1) you cannot buy from TATF website 25 year teak.....see the site only 20 year final harvest!
2) Let's say 20 final harvest will be the only possibility for last year buyer. In that case:
Cost of buying the tree: $41
After 20 years based on TATF forecasts a tree will yield .81 cubic meters. That is a hell of a 20 year old tree!!!!! In fact hat is 50% bigger than FAO, USFS, ITTO research of farm grown trees.
Now let's use real numbers from the US Forestry database.
A 20 year old teak log will yield a gross of ~0.35 to ~0.41 per tree.
Based on the value of money the sale price will be around $102 gross per tree equivalent of today's dollars, now add TATF commissions you are left with $79 per tree.
So What you were saying? That TATF misleads people!!!!! You are right!
There is another problem, for at least 10 years, TATF was promoting 25 year harvests, for 2010 all that "disappeared" from their web marketing. Now we have a totally new deception in place....fast growing teak....You know that there is no scientific research done in what TATF is promoting as "new" it sounds to me like a reincarnation of the past deception.
Prices of Plantation Teak
continue low but stable.
Continuing flow of lower grades teak to India from Costa Rica.
According to an analyst, the flow of plantation teak to India is good but imports mainly consist of lower grades.
Freight costs are at levels that reportedly cause problems to traders.
CR trader:
Latest prices for 15 to 20 year old logs FOB are in the same range as last month from $350 to $500 per cubic meter or $0.81 to $1.16 per bft. Total volume: 975 tons.
Add 30% for standard sawnboards.
I have not posted specific quotes and other than teak and from other sources due the lack of meaningful changes in last posted prices.
What it means for other than plantation teak buyers, any other tree is a losing proposition for any buyer at TATF selling prices.
I am going to ask you a favor.
Can you stop the BS.......
For how long can you run on empty facts?
I hope you are contracted to do this kind of pandering, otherwise what a waste of time!!!!
Now that we are ready to finish the year.
I will ask again, if anyone has received any money from trees dealt with TATF, could you post your experience here.
One of the two or both:
1) you are full of it,
2) or the agent representing the AG broke the law.
"I did say an influential friend had helped to set up my appointment and that the CR OIJ investigator had not wanted any publicity.
My guess is that due to the back channels utilised, no AG report was officially done."
I believe to have good advice and enough knowledge of the process to do not believe what you say.
Publicity has nothing to do with the process to record an action at any AG office.
No one will risk to act - back channels- in the name of any AG office and arrive to a settlement and do not log it.
What you stated that was done at the TAG for you is a federal offense.
Does it sound familiar the concept of:
"The use of a public agency and/or funds for private benefit and/or influence."
I have a little problem with your statement about getting the Texas AG office involved in your settlement.
I filed a FOIL at the office for any document containing any intervention with TATF aka Tropical American Tree Farms of Costa Rica, and three other legal names known of TATF or its owners.
You know the answer I received (e/& r):
Dear Sir,
As of October 1st. of 2010, this (TAG) office has not document or any related action to your FOIL petition.
So someone does not has its story straight, I think is YOU!!
Good news, Bad news
Good news: timber demand is increasing specially for plantation certified.
Bad news: TATF is not certified.
Good news: Timber prices are increasing specially planks for flooring and furniture.
Bad news: TATF does not seem to sell any of those......
Good news: Costa Rica timber exports are increasing.
Bad news: none of that is benefiting people who gave money to TATF.
Good news: some of the latest posting have some snips of good information.
Bad news: a large majority are revisiting and kicking the same dead-horse...
Welcome to the Tropical American Farms disaster area!!!!
Latest CR teak prices for expeort and farm harvested 25-35 years
Logs are running at $450 to $550 for assorted grade
Sawnwood is running at $500 to $675 for SG5 and SG6
This is a small improvement, demand for teak in China and India is improving. European and US imports are holding at record lows.
At present teak values, TATF forecast on returns are misleading.
At his point it is mute to define what really TATF says.
Over the last years all has proven to be a big pile of BS.
For what is worth, I received a different answer.
When I asked, the answer was: "those trees were already thinned last season, what you get is all good 13 year olds".
I would love to say "I got a check" but at this point I am convinced that this whole endeavor is a con.
Tropical American Tree Farms is similar to the hundreds of other Teak plantation investments tricks, that are turning to be well- crafted con-jobs on people who give them money.
Latest TATF Offer
With this little gem offer the insinuation/indication is that thinning have occurred, thus "might" be some value is those post thinned trees!!!!!!!!
Nah!!!!The con goes on..........
2000 Mangium - 15-year final harvest
post 10-year thinning
1995 Nargusta - 20-year final harvest
post 15-year thinning
2000 Suradan - 15-year final harvest
post 10-year thinning
2001 Trebol - 25-year
final harvest
pre-thinning
If those trees were thinned why mine where not when they are from the same years?
Do we have here two classes of tree owners?
None of that........the con goes on!!!!!!
Thank you for your response.
Do you think the tables in the website reflect any reality of those people like you who gave money to TATF?
What do you think those tables should be to be a more approximate reflection of returns?
Let me see if I am correct
You have 3700 teak
Year of planting 1993
Quick question: Which year you bought?
For 17 years holding teak trees you have received $5000.
So based on 1993 prices for more than 2000 units, I can conclude you spent around $135,000 and you said to receive $5 000 for 17 years of investment.
So you have recoup 3.7% of your initial investment for an annualized return of 0.2%, as long as you received your full amount invest in the next 8 years.
Don't you think the investment return tables in the TATF pages need some revision?
Best wishes to your IRA !
As far as any "investment" like TATF, I have not found any situation that I will advise anyone to get involved.
They are a few REITS that trade in the US and one in Switzerland that have 5% yield, as any trade equity they fluctuate like any other stock.
Angry mobs behavior in Costa Rica is not advisable nor here.
It depends how much you have, try to contact you State Attorney General.
If we get lucky Congress will pass the investor protection regulation this year, and then we can have some teeth to go after TATF.
As of now, trying to get TATF to provide with basic information, like harvest reports, has been a futile endeavor.
ITTO reports prices are solid,
The bottom price range for the past two years seems to have support.
Indian companies continue to buy Costa Rican farm logs at $375 to $400 cubic meter.
This pricing seems to be an improvement for Costa Rican logs, in comparison to last quarter and to other plantation logs in Central America.
Latin America seem to have a hard time competing with China and India when producing anything that requires finishing.
Brazilian finishing industry seem to be taking the brunt of the value added damage inflicted by low production costs in India and China.
Monthly Timber Report from ITTO
ITTO Newsletter for July 2010
Teak short notes:
China Grade A board (Indonesia) per cubic ft $2.75
Indian Market Mix Grade teak board (Costa Rica) per cubic ft $1.15
Costa Rica plantation logs $350-$375 per cubic meter -slightly lower than last report ($25)
Purpleheart: Sawn $1.65 per cubic ft
Suggestion to PROSPECTIVE New Tree Buyers.
1) Make sure you understand what are you buying when looking at TATF and the other 150 different names that are selling IDENTICAL products.
As per some posters here you are buying into "value added business."
My personal experience is that:
(CLICK THE SITES BELOW)
Tropical American Tree Farms aka
www.TATF.com aka
www.tropicaltrees.com aka
www.tropicalhardwoods.com aka
www.tatfsa.com aka
www.certifiedtropicalhardwoods.com aka
{Note to above: TATF claims no to have any certified hardwood for sale}
As another 150 plus web sites under the same marketing tracking web page, all linked to the same information.
ALL OF THOSE WEB ADDRESSES PROMOTE SOMETHING THAT DOES NOT FALL UNDER THE DEFINITION OF INVESTMENT.
IT IS MY EXPERIENCE THAT IT FALLS UNDER THE DEFINITION OF FRAUD.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED THAT YOU MIGHT BE PART OF A FRAUD WHEN YOU SENT MONEY TO ANY RELATED PARTY OF THOSE SITES.
I wonder why to perpetrate fact-twisting
as many trained legally individuals do?
As you well know, a scam is legally defined as: FRAUD
The court accepted definition of fraud aka "scam" is:
"A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury."
Fraud needs to prove the following:
"Showing that the defendant's actions involved five separate elements:
1) a false statement of a material fact,
2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue,
3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim,
4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and
5) injury to the alleged victim as a result."
Now, this is in the EEUU, but In Costa Rica is a different game. Fraud in Costa Rica is defined as an intended action. Thus, who can prove intent, to twist the twist in CR to prove intent by part of an enterprise is even more difficult. Reason why CR is known as crook's heaven.
The case against TATF is building itself little by little.
In all four elements of fraudulent action seem to be fitting to TATF tactics.
I love your tactics, blame the injured of fraud.
I WONDER!!!!! WHAT HAPPENED TO THE QUESTIONS I ASK YOU?
Getting near something here.
There is some indication that someone using different names develops a sales pitch for the same product under many different enterprises and rubric.
It is an old corporate trick used by issuers of penny stocks.
In this case is about timber investments.
As you can assume is near San Jose Costa Rica.
Now, I am going to REALLY surprise you!!
Read this carefully....
I'm seeking sources of information on growth characteristics, planting
requirements, sources of seed or planting stock for specific species of
trees. I will attempt to be succinct in my request for help, however,
some background will likely be helpful.
BACKGROUND
I have a friend who has been going to & enjoying the pacific coast region of
Costa Rica for the past 20 years. He has observed first hand the continued
clearing of the forest land for farming and about 5 years ago he made a
commitment to, in a small way, return some of the land to native growth
forest. He realized that the cost of doing so was beyond his means so he
developed what I consider to be a very smart compromise solution. This was
to plant Tectona Grandis (Teak) trees purchased as seedlings by individual
investors who would own those trees and ultimately receive the proceeds from
there harvesting (less some maintenance and processing costs).The revenue
from the tree investors has been used to acquire three large forest areas
that had previosly been completely cleared of all the native trees. The
funds have also enabled the planting of many more trees than owned by
investors. These trees will remain untouched. The idea is to, over time,
bring a balance of native species back to the land and continue to harvest a
variety of species on a percentage of the land while building the acreage of
"natural" forest.
My friend has developed a pretty good knowledge of Tectona Grandis, but, he
knows very little about the many other species that he knows have been/are
native to the area. I volunteered to help him find credible resources for
information on these other species.
SPECIFIC REQUEST
My friend has gven me a list of trees with to the best of his knowledge the
trade name, local name and botanical name of the trees that he would like to
learn more about. I've reproduced them below. I'm not a botanist so please
excuse me if the list names are inaccurate. What I most want to find out for
my friend is:
1) Where can detailed information be obtained for each species on growth
characteristics, planting requirements, risks to trees (insects, fungus,
etc.)
2) Are there any institutions doing research on these species and if so who
are they?
3) Where can seeds or seedlings be obtained?
The species of specific interest are:
Trade Name Local Name Botanical Name
Peroba Rosa Manglillo Aspidosperma Spp.
Goncalo Alves Ron-ron Astronium Graveolens
Brazilian Cherry Guapinoi Hymenaea Courbaril
Purpleheart Nazareno Peltogyne Spp.
Trebol Cristobal Platymiscium Spp.
Lapacho Corteza Tabebuia Spp.
Nargusta Amarillon Terminalia Amazonia
Idigbo Terminalia Terminalia Ivorensis
Cocobolo Not available Dalbergia retusa
Please forgive the long message. I very much want to help my friend achieve
his dream for this area and any help anyone can provide regarding the above
would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
Do you want me to tell you who the mentioned friend is?
I guess is easy to figure it out !!!!!
SURPRISE!!!!!
I hope the answer received back then is still valid today.....
Are you serious?
So TATF is not selling trees, then can you explain what is:
"the business of adding value"
You really confused me here.
I understand that a log is a tree, but what the hell is the business of adding value. To what? Is that idea what Carl Marx called the Value Added to goods?
What about those trees that you were interested, and do not forget the easy questions that I asked you. Specially the one about the quality of farms.
This month Costa Rica Teak market report:
Click here for ITTO Report
Costa Rica teak logs $375 to $400 per cubic meter as per report.
For the last 5 years since Indian buyers started to buy large amounts of teak in Costa Rica the prices reported by ITTO have averaged from $275 to $475.
The information provided by TATF in its web-projection page still is out of range with market prices by a sigma of 3 for the last 10 years.
For the new readers, what we are dealing here is with the big lie of wood harvesting projections for the last 10 years by TATF.
TATF has continued to project each Teak log to be worth 300% to 800% more than actually is.
Today one 20-25 year log in the market FOB will bring $250 to $300.
TATF still asserts in its web page marketing material, over time one log is worth from $900 up to $2400.m See Projections at TATF web site.
Well that is a big misrepresentation and the market does not support such falsehood.
Be careful is a Costa Rica out there.
Also remember TATF also sells other kind of trees, but nowhere in the marketing pitch you will find-out a single statement about possible returns for those purchases.
Be aware that Ipe supply is so large that prices are running at the equivalent of pine pulp that is $70-$100 per ton.
Simple and difficult questions not answered; I wonder why?
Can you answer my questions, more importantly, in relation to the importance of identifying the farms and if quality is an issue for you.
I wonder, why do you care so much about TATF farm location?
Or do you think that TATF has good farms and bad farms?
If that is the case can you let us know which farms are TATF bad and which ones are good.
The exact location should not matter to you because TATF does not provide anyone before purchasing any location, just tree information.
Now, if it really is a deal breaker for you, let's enter in escrow and you will get it.
If the case is that farm location is a deal breaker why did you buy trees from TATF without the location of the trees?
But you will not do the same, when I am giving you more than TATF will give you.
The only two reasons I can think for you so obsessed with location are:
1) you think that TATF is no doing a good job with the farms and they are some better than others,
2) you want to match TATF files with it.
I said 3000 teaks, and 6000 of various others, which part of 3000 don't you understand!!!
I said 15 years, which part of the math do you have a hard time:
the subtraction or the addition?
Edson Arantes dos Nascimento
+le
Critical unasked questions answered......
As I said in other posting.
The offer is for all 9000 standing trees.
The teaks trees are all standing.
They are all located in at least 2 TATF farms, no more than 25 miles from each other!
The other 6000 trees are in at least 4 farms.
You will get all information with the diligence package if you want to buy them: a notarized copy of the certificates, the Excel spreadsheet prepared by TATF with the farm rows and location details.
As TATF is concerned, as reported to me via telephone, "all those trees are in perfect standing" -quotes indicate verbatim TATF staff statements- "they are spaced to grow to full harvest" this said by one of the farm managers.
I have not received any thinning report for any of the offered trees.
If you are interested.
I will indicate to my attorney to set-up a private sale, an escrow account with standard terms; 10% of the asking price, credited towards the total purchase, you will received a notarized copy of the documentation and a termed private contract with a confidentiality agreement.
As I stated in my past email those are the trees, amounts, age and my asking price.
What else do you want?
After all the eagerness to buy trees!!!
What is happening?
Aren't TATF trees good enough for you?
Could it be that I am stocked with too many for your taste?
Be assure that they are for sale. All of them!!!!
What about the following:
15 year old teak at 50% discount from what TATF advertises as their worth that is around $75 per tree.
3000 units.
Plus
6000 trees
Year 2000
Premium Mixture
Suradan
Ipe
PurpleHeart
Trebol
Cocobolo
Gonzalvo Alves
They are yours for the TATF special 2000 unit discount with an additional 20% that is a 50% discount from regular prices!!!!!!
If interested send us a private email.
That is for an easy total buy-out of $600,000.00
Easy does it!
A "Cashier's Check" or "Certified Check" from any USA major bank will do.
We will travel anywhere to close the deal.
Edson Arantes do Nascimento
+le
Never lose sight of reality and the facts.
When spin takes over, reality takes second place, at least until the truth replaces spin. Usually it takes a long time to undo the spin.
Read the present Tree Owners News (TON) and go back to past ones and
based on what it was said 10 years ago and compare to what it said with the present and build an honest assessment.
It will add to the discussion of this forum.
I wonder who are going to be the beneficiaries of all those announced sales.
I think is a little more complicated than that.
Put yourself in the shoes of a lender.
I come to you and I say, you know my business (here it is the first flag for TATF)banks are not stupid, they know what is going on with their largest clients.
Imagine how smart bankers are that they got the biggest rescue package in the history of human kind.
I tell you as my banker, here is a piece of the farmland that I want as collateral for $XXX adn the machinery I want to buy is insured and is also the collateral for you, but look as you know the trees in the land are no mine, I have contracts out for 25 years for the ownership of the trees.
For you as a bank, this farmland de facto has not value until those contracts are expired.
There is not clear immediate liquidity, a bank will have a hard time to justify the loan near raw market value; in a situation like that you should expect to receive a very small amount with a very large collateral and probably at above market rates.
As long as trees keep been sold, good forest land with liquidity is still a good asset at market prices, and there is the other hole in the ground.
Raw land market might be dead, but it is not at the buyer's price, same with trees. I can say that there are buyers the problems is that sellers do not like what they hear as the offering price.
Personally, I have not had problem getting loan commitments from lenders and loans to put offers in the table, my problem has been the increase in lower quality collateral and the increasing rates for bridge-loans. Reason why I dropped more deals than ever.
Wood Market from ITTO
For those of you who do not subscribe to the ITTO newsletter, here are a couple of notes from the report.
Costa Rica average prices for Farm Teak CNF $375 to $400 per cubic meter parcel logs
CNF= (Cost and freight)
Very poor market for other woods. Balsa is the exception but at deflated prices.
Important Trend, the EU passed a law to implement certified wood imports.
This is very important, localities are now in charge of inspecting final construction products, in the EU inspections for certified sustainable products are serious business at local level, localities need to comply with EU guidelines to qualify for funding and get ISO certifications.
That is good news for farm wood, to be clear that certification does not mean farmed wood.
Wood deflation pricing versus inflation, that seems to be the pervasive trend.
Question, if wood deflates, why not the rest of the products?
Happy 4 th of July!!!