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That might be the case for some, but like I said... if Negative Goodwill means a payout is imminent than anyone that owns stock in JPM and that took the time to read the 8k that understands such a thing would have bought as much wmi stock as possible.
That's not the case...
And yes, I understand the MM manipulation... but be realistic here. FC is less than a certainty. It's actually far far far less than a certainty unless you want to believe there was a conspiracy to steal wamu that wasn't thought out at all in the least by those that perpetrated it.
That's not how these people work. They build the laws to their liking and then exploit them accordingly.
Negative goodwill on that 8k does not meaning a payout to WMI is coming any second.
"Maybe folks have bought up to the limits already."
If you own shares, regardless of when they were purchased, you own shares. If shares of WaMuq rise to 8 dollars per share, you can sell yours for that price.
If anyone that held prior to the seizure sues in a class action event... that excludes you.
But you own your shares... and your shares are no less valuable than any owned pre-seizure.
"Now I'm getting confused...So...
Any shares purchased post seizure are crap for a buyout/merger/FC but the ones I had prior are the ones that will be worth something in the event of any of the outcomes listed above?
So everyone adding really isn't going to contribute to any potential future wealth when this is all settled?
Does anyone have a link to share holders rights? or any link to back this up?
sorry new to this and wondering if adding was a mistake.."
I agree... but none of that points to an imminent payout to WMI. Something can be construed as a threat, or as most people read it... just a fact being shared. (and yes, I believe it was a threat)
Negative goodwill doesn't mean squat as for WMI getting paid... or EVERYONE and their sister that read that statement on the 8k would have bought up the legal limit of Wamuq and preferreds within minutes of coming across it.
Just because it seems like common sense and right and wrong does not therefore make it legally so. these crooks have covered their asses for centuries and you can bet they've not gone out on a limb here without feeling quite comfy in doing so.
And if you believe this was a conspiracy to take down Wamu then use your brain... the decision would have been made in advance and they'd have done so in a way that they knew they'd have a legal loophole in which to do so without being liable for squat.
"We truly don't know what went on between the FDIC and WAMU behind closed doors before the closure. However, there's just too much evidence, beginning with Paulsen's statement (which could be construed as a threat), that there is/was a lot of chicanery going on. Plus, we have JPIG admitting that a state of negative goodwill exists."
Sure if you want to make a few cents and risk not being here when a deal goes own... knock your socks off.
"So any blip in the share price at the end of the month ...sell?"
Am I the only one here that's not thinking with my wallet?
I appreciate all that Bopfan has contributed but please guys... you've all done a lot of DD here, reread this statement.
"The limitations on 1828(u) DON'T APPLY to (1) fraudulent conveyance clauses based on ACTUAL fraud, or (2) WMI's case -- i.e., constructive fraud -- because (as far as we know) the FDIC/OTS did not send WMI a warning letter about WMB being undercapitalized."
So the hypothetical legal case is back on because Bopfan says so... even though we know WaMu had some kind of arrangement with the OTS. Yet we're going to assume they never got a letter of warning from them?
"Also, just today WaMu revealed that it entered into a memorandum of understanding with the Office of Thrift Supervision “concerning aspects of the bank’s operations, principally in several areas of its risk management and compliance functions,” according to a WaMu statement."
http://www.financialweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080908/REG/809089968/1036
Everyone is so quick to assume that because we don't know this or that, that it's not the case... I know you guys mean well, but don't throw common sense out the window because you've got high hopes of some magical money being paid out based on speculation which in and of itself is based upon what ifs.
I don't mean to be a downer and I don't think this is going to implode on us or I'd have sold everything instead of buying more last week... but banking on this being worked out in the next week or two is likely just setting yourselves up for heartache.
Bopfan has been an interesting side note to this story and maybe there is something so what he/she is saying... but to be blunt, it's not concrete.
In fact, I'll go as far as to say that second piece of info posted today, was a feel good damage control post that's ignoring the obvious... the OTS was hands on with WaMu in its last days. You can bet your backside that if WaMu agreed to present them with an updated plan addressing some issues, then there were documents not only "Sent" to WaMu, but that WaMu then signed and gave back to the OTS.
Use your brains here people... I know it's hard to put aside the dreams of fast cash and a grievous wrong being righted... possibly within a week or two, but that entire concept is based completely upon well intentioned speculation.
The way our legal system works is that before there can be a trial... with a jury, a hearing wil tak place at which time a judge decides if there's legal reason to proceed with the case.
If the FDIC requires those it insures to sign away any and all claims of fraudulent conveyance, as part of the contractual obligation and the right to be insured by the FDIC, then forget it... there'd be no grounds to go any further.
It's fun to say what if... and to imagine it playing out like a sequel to My Cousin Vinny, but reality and programming are two separate things. And make no mistake, we've all been programmed to think that right always wins... and there's a reason for that.
Those unaffected by this case go on never questioning what happened, why, or if this could have been a shady deal... because they believe if that were the case it would be all over the news and the bad people would go to jail.
Sadly... that's not reality. It's just a program running in the minds of Americans that keeps them from questioning anything and everything that transpires right in front of their eyes.
Its a dangerous society that inherently believes that the government can do no wrong, if it did, the press would report it, and in the end, any such mistakes will always be rectified.
That's where we are now...
"Well, IMO if there is some type of trial (fraud) and if its a jury trial, JPIG and FDIC would lose big, unless the jury is composed of a bunch of idiots. There's enough smoke with this case to see where the fire originated from."
No biggie... I've been saying the same thing, but most just want to follow whoever promises the biggest and fastest payout.
There are no checks and balances with the FDIC.
That having been said, things weren't looking to shabby here before everyone went apeturds for FC claims made on the yahoo board.
Gotta stay level headed here and not just latch onto whatever feels good for the moment, though that may keep some people interested during the slow times... it just sets a lot of people up for being let down and throwing in the towel, not because anything's changed with the situation, but because their perceptions of instant truckloads of cash have flown the coop.
"but all one had to do is dd.... and that is why the FDIC needs to be watched more carefully... they are dangerous when no check and balance is there and they have a free hand... anything can happen and they are excluded.... what a bummer."
NEW MESSAGE FROM BOPFAN! Like I said the other day, lets be realistic here and forget this fraudulent conveyance stuff. It was a non-issue here a week ago when we were waiting on the 4 billion and NOls and hoping for a buyout.
As some of us have tried to point out, if the FDIC was subject to fraudulent conveyance, it wouldn't have taken a risk in doing what they did. They knew full well they are exempt from such charges, thanks to extraordinary powers granted to it by the Congress back in the 1950s.
These people have no scruples. But they've built a legal system that's very one sided in their favor, specifically for times like these.
PLEASE MAKE SURE EVERYONE READS THIS POST by Bopfan!
http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_(A_to_Z)/Stocks_W/threadview?m=te&bn=86316&tid=58012&mid=58012&tof=1&frt=2#58012
Dragon:
I think you are right about the fraudulent conveyance point, and I would rather be wrong than provide erroneous information. It seems I misinterpreted a statute I read some time ago, and this statute DIRECTLY bears on WMI's ability to go after the FDIC/OTS.
The statute is 12 U.S.C. 1828(u) and I misinterpreted to mean that constructively fraudulent conveyance claims were authorized, but on reading it today I see that they are specifically excluded. If I am interpreting it correctly now, WMI must show the FDIC acted with actual intent to hinder, delay, and defraud WMI's creditors, and I don't know if it can prove this. I'm moving this up on the board so people can evaluate this reading in light of everything else I've written on the subject.
When the heck is Cbay going to go green? It just sits there collecting dust.
It's a shaved gorilla though... and he knows he's standing there naked in front of a stadium full of people. Lets hope he's not too em-bare-assed to perform and starts swinging because as of now, he's looking cold and timid.
"The holding company is like a large gorilla standing around with a base ball bat staring at the umpire and the pitcher while they figure out if the last pitch was a ball or strike.
This gorilla thinks it was a ball but the pitcher is arguing that it was a strike! The gorilla wins because he has the bat and he's a gorilla so he get's to do what ever he wants.
If the umpire calls a strike he will be pummelled and if the pitcher puts up too much of a fuss he will be pummelled so it's probably going to be called a ball."
pure brilliance in the eyes of wamu shareholders
JPMorgan is “not out there looking” for an acquisition. And there is nothing that the bank is looking to divest, Dimon said.
But Dimon is leaving the door ajar in case opportunity knocks yet again. “We would never say never.”
http://blogs.reuters.com/reuters-dealzone/2009/01/15/dimon-never-say-never/
I've gotta be honest here, I look at this stuff and gt giddy with excitement. Literally like a little kid on Christmas morning.
But I'm not smart enough to interpret this stuff. If that "negative goodwill" statement was a sign of things to come, specifically of a vulnerability of the FDIC in this mess, then why weren't investors sopping up as many shares of WMI stocks as possible early in the day, let alone later in the day when the information would surely have gotten out via word of mouth.
I feel good, but not great and I swing back and forth, especially reading posts by those that appear to know much more than I about these things.
But my main concern here I suppose is that the FDIC is not your average corporation. If anything, from what I've read they're actions are not subject to any review. Granted we've seen them sued in the past, and even seen them lose...
But in this case, why aren't the creditors suing the FDIC over this? Maybe they will now... who knows? But I can't wrap my brain around a lot of the assumptions we're all making here.
Just because it sounds right, doesn't make it so. If that were the case, none of this would have happened from the get go.
The FDIC wields an extraordinary amount of power and the politicians have no say over any of the transactions it performs.
Perhaps a fair judge would add step on their neck over this... but I tend to feel that right now, we're all expecting a miracle from the corrupt of the corrupt.
We were in a much better frame of mind when we were just focused on obtaining control of the 4 billion dollars, the NOLS, and hoping for a buyout.
Now we're all focused on gift money from an evil entity that we believe is scared because of legalities that may or may not even apply to them... when in fact we know this whole thing stinks of countless violations, not only of the law, but of human decency.
I'm just trying to say... stay grounded. If something wonderful happens in the next week or two, AWESOME! But don't forget what we've been thinking for months. The focus was on the cash and the NOLs.
I feel like the mindset now is, we're gonna get paid and it's going to be any second. If things don't pan out over the next week or two, don't lose sight of the prevailing mentality of the past month or two.
I'm trying to stay focused on the cash and NOLs because if I allow myself to get high strung now, I can see myself getting disgusted and cashing out wen nothing happens only to see things escalate once WMI gets access to their cash.
He's the guy dressed as a shrub on the right.
Middletown here...
I tend to think bad times bring out the best in humanity. We've had it good for generations and perhaps its now our turn to feel the heat a bit.
Regardless, I'm not worried so much as I'm just disgusted to see so much of what countless Americans died and shed their blood to protect us from, so quickly embraced as a means of saving us from an economic meltdown.
But the answers to so much of what's wrong today are right before our eyes. As a people, we're just conditioned to trust, be it the news media, or politicians, or whoever.
Thats why 99% of America know nothing about WaMu's collapse beyond the hit pieces floated out there for that very purpose.
Regarless, I want to be proven wrong about an awful lof of stuff. But I've had a pretty good track record of being right about so much of what's happening now, not because I'm so intellegent, but rather... we're on a collision course with a one world financial system. That's quite simple to see by looking at the bailouts and and whatnot... not only here in America, but around the globe.
Iv'e watched as Islamic terrorists, not all of those who believe in Islam, but the terrorists have been rebranded as "fundamentalists". I've watched as nation after nation has rewritten their laws to remove personal freedom from all for the sake of "protecting" citizens from fundamentalists.
WaMu is a microcosm of things to come... think, the ghost of Christmas future. If things aren't changed, and changed soon.. the people of this planet are in for a hell of a ride... if you catch my drift.
I pray, literally... that something will give soon enough. I see the kids next door and it bums me out to see the world that they're growing up in.
But seriously, sometimes we need to feel a chill to revalue the heated homes, hot water, and indoor plumbing that we so often take for granted. Hopefully, the outcome of all of this will be that the American people will grow a backbone and a thicker skin so as to regain the bravery needed to flourish in tough times.
But as you stated, this thing flies and we're all better off $ wise. If it happens, think of those in need. We can make a difference in a lot of ways and should this pan out and should some of us gain a little financial blessing, "Do unto others..."
Feed the hungry and give them a ride to wherever they're going in your new porsche. Nuff said for now. :O)
line is, try not to get discouraged...And things usually have a way of working themselves out...They'll just work out better if this baby flys..."
Right... and him and Pelosi are going to pull us out of Iraq and prosecute Bush for war crimes right?
Nothing personal... but don't get your hopes up. The same people are running both parties, hence they both have approval ratings lower than my shoe size.
Most Americans are too stupid and indifferent to even question why we're in this mess. They're too worried about putting food on the table to research the hows and whys.
I hope it all pans out for the best... but looking at what we've got brewing here I've got a hard time being anything more than a "the glass is completely empty" kinda guy.
"What am I seeing that others are missing? I’m seeing a new President who is sick of throwing money at an accounting mishap. He’s not going to give another dollar to the banks."
Look around pages 99 and 100... I remember seeing at the bottom of one page and the top of the next. It was fraudulent transfer not fraudulent conveyance.
PFFFFT! This pans out and I'll have 3 closets freshly stocked with ladies. Oh wait... were you talking about the beer?
Whats the date on that thing? Was it right after the New Year?
Ain't that a kick to the groin...
Registrant:
Washington Mutual, Inc.
Washington Mutual, Inc.
1201 3rd Ave
Seattle WA 98101
US
+1.2063596677 Fax: +1.2063599000
Hey Climber,
The reason I mentioned it is that there was talk on another board about some kind of legal search listed in the minutes as to copyright usage or branding or something... I forget the terminology.
I'd look it up but I'm knee deep in the real world of office work and that nonsense.
WMI owns the name WaMu as well as the domain... it's not a typo and not part of a conspiracy theory. It's just a copyright thing, as in WMI owns the copyright.
JPM said they're changing the banks to JPM Chase anyway...
I know the drill... they aren't showing my bid. I moved up according to the movement here and I'm still not showing. Typically Etrade has been good for me, but this is ridiculous.
Etrade will not show my bid and I'm watching trades go by below it. These people suck.
Yeah for the record WMI must still own the name WaMu and Wamu.com
Products and services offered by JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A. and its affiliates.
Programs (including, without limit, fees, rates and features) are subject to change without notice.
© Copyright 1998 - 2009, Washington Mutual, Inc. All Rights Reserved
I'm pretty sure we've been through this already. Sorry to rehash.
Has anyone mentioned the following... it like everything else I post is probably meaningless but,
http://www.kccllc.net/wamu states the following:
Additional Links:
Washington Mutual, Inc. https://www.wamu.com/
We all know the site states the following "Products and services offered by JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A. and its affiliates.
Programs (including, without limit, fees, rates and features) are subject to change without notice."
Why the heck do they list wamu.com as WMI? You'd think they'd know better if the site and domain name now belong to chase.
I'm guessing at some point WMI will regain control of the domain name, as there is supposed to be a transition over from WaMu to JPM Chase. It's just ironic that they even list the address as WMI.
I suppose the point is moot... It's late and I should sleep.
I agree...
Good luck to all of you guys as well. It's been an honor to lean on all of you and learn a lot from you guys throughout this escapade.
"Actually,..I like it right here...just like it is..! LOL
Good luck to you WaS."
Relax... Worrying about it and getting all excited won't make a deal happen any faster. I'm telling you... I'm ready to sue JPM for causing me to develop tennis elbow from clicking refresh so many times.
But take the words of this hypocrite to heart. Believe it when you see it, or else you're probably setting yourself up for a heartbreaking late January.
In the meantime I'll be biting my nails and watching my last 3 hairs go gray. No sense in all of us prematurely wilting over this.
"WaS....this may not be a delay...the other delays we heard about like 2 days before hearing and a new date...here it is 2 weeks before hearing and we also have not heard of a new date....but time will tell....this is making me old fast."
Got any opinions on why it wasn't heard on any of the 3 or 4 other dates it was scheduled to be heard but wasn't?
Until something substantial happens, assume it's just more of the same old same old...
"Well does anyone have an opinion why the 4.4 bln.not listed for 1/29 ?"
Same thing with the preferreds... Though they may have always been so.
Tell you what... I've already spent my WAMPQ payout 5 times over, not counting the different ways I figured I'd spend it if it's only paid out in a small percentage.
Wedding ring for girlfriend, car for my dad, house, vacation... etc etc...
I'm just as guilty as anyone else. If anything, I gotta keep you guys honest so I don't get worked up to the point where I sit here all night refreshing the board like a kid starting out the window longing for snow to start falling.
Shy of news of a buyout, the news I want is that we pulled the cash from JPM.
Regardless, good luck guys and gals. We're getting closer to some kind of resolution. Hopefully it'll be much much sooner than later and financially gratifying for all parties involved.
"Thanks! WaS (Pun intended) a moment of excitement there. I've been around long enough not to get carried away. So I am back on the ground now. LOL!"
Remember when you were a kid and the weather called for snow. You'd go crazy with anticipation of a snow day. Heck, I'd sit up all night waiting for those first flakes, which many times never materialized on time.
The forecast here isn't overtly calling for a buyout. To some of us it looks like snow and feels like snow... but the forecast is calling for rain.
Don't set your sites too high so as to not be let down hard in the end. If if does snow... Big bonus snow day for everyone involved.
If you asked me yesterday if I thougt the hearing on the cash would be moved I'd have guessed yes, solely on the fact that its happened that way each time... The fact that its happened again could be a storm converging, but it's most likely just that staus quo and yet another set back.
"Too many coincidences here. I am getting really "NERVITED" nervous and excited at the same time."
I hope we're wrong, but I agree...
"I think that's a typo..."
FDIC was selling subprime mortgages? I find this information to be almost disgustingly funny.
Also note the date... July 20, 2008.
"Federal officials heap much of the blame for the subprime mortgage mess on lenders, claiming they recklessly made too many high-cost home loans to borrowers who couldn't afford them.
It turns out that the U.S. government itself was one of the lenders giving out high-interest, subprime mortgages, some of them predatory, according to government documents filed in federal court.
The unusual situation, which is still bedeviling bank regulators, stems from the 2001 seizure by federal officials of Superior Bank FSB, then a national subprime lender based in Hinsdale, Ill. Rather than immediately shuttering or selling Superior, as it normally does ..."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121641296022866029.html
FDIC Facing Lawsuit For Improper Lending
Just when you think the subprime mortgage turmoil is old news, something new and even more incredible pops up. Wall Street Journal has a story which sounds a bit hard to believe, were it not for the deluge of facts supporting the story. The FDIC is facing an estimated $70 million lawsuit filed by Plano, Texas based Beal Bank SSB, for selling it a portfolio of loans, many of which Beal Bank claims were made improperly.
What happened was that the FDIC took over Superior Bank FSB, a Hinsdale, Illinois based bank, in 2001. While on the lookout for a buyer, the FDIC continued to run the bank's subprime-mortgage business for several months, during which time they approved in excess of 6700 new subprime loans. The FDIC also sold off 5315 loans to Beal Bank.
In a recent court filing, the FDIC estimated that about 1,500 of the 5,315 loans it sold to Beal either have defaulted or are nonperforming. The FDIC already has bought back another 247 of the mortgages, most of them for violations of federal anti-predatory-lending laws intended to protect borrowers from unreasonably high fees or deceptive practices. Beal Bank has said in court filings that 73 of the repurchased loans were originated while the FDIC was running Superior. - FDIC Faces Mortgage Mess After Running Failed Bank, Mark Maremont, Wall Street Journal, July 21, 2008; Page A1
http://www.money-rx.com/blog/2008/07/fdic-facing-lawsuit-for-improper.html
WaMu has had nothing but bad publicity. The FDIC has had none and will likely continue to have no exposure to media scrutiny.
If WMI sues, the majority of the world will just assume it's their last ditch effort to blame the "innocent" FDIC that was just doing it's job.
Tells me WaMu should have had no interference from the FDIC as trying to sell itself until AFTER the bank was seized at which point the FDIC should have then begun the auctioning process.
That's purely based upon the short bit of information posted there.
I know it and I know they've controlled the media since then as well, hence, history ignores their role in the depression, countless bank failures, and an attempted coup against FDR.
Hence... I don't believe for a second that the media will ever cover this legitimately... hence, the FDIC is going to be just fine.
"do you people know jpm is know for doing this type of work with the fdic as far back as the 20's ...there in partnership somehow,to work together to shut co's down then buy them for peanuts,do your research ,smarten up..... but in wamu case they were wrongfully seized, so they have the cash to fight it ,so look out"
I disagree with this point 110%. First off, does the Fed care what people think about it or it's Unconstitutional Income Tax? No, because people are too stupid to know better.
All the press has to do is not cover the lawsuit or paint it in the light of all the FDIC was to do it's job and the already demonized WaMu/WMI will look like greedy dirtbags looking for free money.
99% of the people will believe whatever they hear on the news, no matter how slanted, ridiculous, or completely false said "news report" is.
As always, I hope I'm wrong... but I somehow doubt the FDIC is quaking in it's boots over fear of litigation. Government lawyers on the taxpayer payroll and a controlled press are it's assets.
If you think for a second that WaMu was "taken out" by the FDIC and JPM, then think rationally. Would they go through all of this trouble and never think... oh wait, what if WMI hires some hot shot lawyers?
I'd love to see the FDIC bent over into many an uncomfortable position, but until I see it I just can't put my faith in litigation that may or may not have been mentioned to the FDIC and JPM.
Sure would love to see them pay us though... And the sooner the better. I'd like to cash out before the controlled demolition of our entire economic system.
"This is where the FDIC is now. It is weighing its options and planning for all contingencies, including litigation (and publicity) and the possibility of a court ruling as to the value of the seized assets and the fall out from that result. It simply cannot risk the latter..."
I saw that... Heck, I'll throw another one out there. Burger King to buy out WMI. They want to buy 4 billion dollars worth of paper crowns. They'll take the NOLs for good measure.
"Ya, I just though I would throw it out there. There is another funny one... "WAMUQ and LEHMQ" to merge operations. LOL"
I probably stand alone in this, but I don't think so. The FDIC knew what they were doing when they seized the bank. I find it hard to believe they'd do so and then realize they made an oops and have to pay out to cover their backside.
I find it even harder to believe they'd just hand the cash over without a lawsuit even being filed, let alone won by WMI.
Just my take... I'd love to be wrong.
"Does this bode well for an fraudulent conveyance settlement. Is the FDIC getting ready to payout?"
You may be right. I've only speculated that might be the case because it's almost ridiculous to think WMI would leave the money with the people that stole the banks, if even as a means of spiting them.
A lot of others believe the money is there because they're working on a deal. how many months has it been?
I won't freak over another delay... but I want to see that money pulled from the JPM account, especially after reading the the legal fee minutes and seeing a good deal of time and money spent researching interest rates on bank deposits. If JPM is playing games with the interest... then it's costing WMI and us money, not only in interest, but the time spent calculating the variance and searching out info relevant to it.
Just my opinions of course...
"A few people have indicated that the reason for the delays so far have been due to the potential for the FDIC to lay claim to it and that somehow leaving it deposited in JPMC is protecting it.
Personally, I believe that if the FDIC has claim to it, it would not matter which bank the money resided in."