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Doma, good point re: NTRU independent TSS. e/
orda re: Wave's CSP
Yes, connections to the sides of Wave's proprietary CSP. Wave is definitely first mover in this space! If anybody attempts reverse engineering on the sides of the CSP stack, you can be sure Wave has thought out counter measures to alter the stack, counter counter measures and so on.
Doma re: STMIcro using NTRU
I believe that STMicro went with NTRU/Wave because it's the best solution. I would imagine they could easily have made their product work with Infineon's TSS, but wisely they chose NTRU.
Doma...I agree. I really doubt Atmel will develop their own CSP, let alone an interoperable one.
dig space re: Infineon and NTRU
It's my understanding that NTRU would work with Infineon's TPM but Infineon would have to switch from their (Infineon) TSS to NTRU's.
Edit: An Atmel guess:
I will permit myself to speculate on Atmel and software without having knowledge about what actually goes on inside a semi-conductor company. I believe that Atmel is in fact considered to be a semi-conductor company:
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/pr?s=ATML
It does not seem that Atmel's numbers are particularly strong.
Perhaps semi-conductor companies have software departments as software may be an integral part of semi-conductor design and implementation.
I really doubt Atmel will attempt to develop their own TPM software, other perhaps than the most basic interface required for their embedded systems TPMs. The tech is over my head, but their TPM for embedded systems I believe might require keys management technology from Wave.
At this point it could be a question of Atmel getting design wins for their embedded systems TPM and negotiating the terms with Wave for those implementations that will require Wave services.
It seems that IBM may be phasing the Atmel TPM out. In that case the Atmel TPM runs with IBM TPM software, so I doubt TPM software development was an issue for Atmel in that implementation.
24601, thanks for the PM. e/
Edit: awk/doma re: Infineon TSS
awk, you said it...Infineon's OEM customers will require interoperable TPM software which equals Wave.
I say let Infineon finish their v1.2 TSS...they'd better or they will lose BRCM to NTRU.
But even with Infineon TPM product running on their own Infineon TSS, they will, to repeat the aforementioned, need to provide their OEM implementers with interoperable software in case those OEM customers deploy different TPMs across their platforms (SKS's "software image" reference in the last CC).
Of course another reason for Infineon to bundle Wave is what Wave's platform has to offer end users...like KTM for example...stuff that Infineon doesn't have.
Thanks VH! e/
Edit: Doma re: Atmel software
I doubt Atmel will develop/provide their own TPM management software as they are not a software company and even if they were I doubt they could readily replicate Waves' platform.
Will Atmel's embedded systems customers require Wave's keys management for their end users? I would imagine there is potential that they will.
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/pr?s=ATML
OT: eamonnshute...yes they did. e/
OT: Thanks awk re: idi
Thanks Foam!
Your summary makes a whole bunch of sense! Thanks for this and your STmicro sleuthing, including your very siginificant Pay TV TPM find!
http://public.2idi.com/=Ramsey2
Hi RWK re: Dell
I love your Dell/McAfee analogy! That sure sounds plausible to me. It would not surprise me one bit if a Wave-run Dell TPM center has been discussed and could be in the works. It really fits...Dell will need Wave's software platform since they likely will not develop their own (Infineon is IMO a hugely distant second choice) and they won't want to mess around with customer support. It would be a perfect model from which Wave could do activations, and sell and manage upgrades.
And you are right, Dell could be waiting for v1.2 before really kicking off the volume.
Regards,
R2
Edit: Doma
Thanks for putting together a comprehensive summary of the TSS options.
I am pretty sure that Dell recognizes the value of Wave's platform and will either bundle Wave via NSM or will highlight Wave at the Dell website as recommended third party support for activating and managing TPM platforms. I suppose however that if indeed Dell opts for the BRCM ethernet controller TPM for their laptops then of course Infineon will be listed as an ISV by Dell also. Wave's ESC is such a superior launch tool to anything else that I find it hard to believe that Dell will not promote it across all their TPM-enabled products.
When it comes to IBM and HP implementing the NSM Super I/O, perhaps they will stay with their current TSSs and not use NTRU. Obviously IBM and HP users stand to benefit from Wave's launch and management platform (ESC and ETS) more than they would from IBM's and HP's platforms respectively simply because Wave's offering is so much more robust. But, since IBM and HP both provide their own branded software platforms for their TPM-enabled products we may not see either actually bundle ESC/ETS...instead Wave will have to rely on the aftermarket for TPM activations using Wave...and of course there is always the aftermarket for post-activation upgrades (where even if the user turned on their platform via IBM and HP they then go to Wave for upgrades).
Dell is potentially a better story since they are less likely to offer their own branded software platform and will therefore be more likely to actually bundle Wave (to encourage user activations).
Doma re: TSSs
I see your logic...so that would mean that NSM would build their Super I/O for IBM with the IBM TSS (for IBM only).
NSM Super I/Os for other PC OEMs are likey to be constructed with the NTRU TSS. Although it sounds like if HP specified the Infineon TSS for their NSM Super I/O, that NSM would then build the Infineon into their product...but then that would involve licensing from Infineon I believe, just as BRCM pays Infineon to license the Infineon TSS for their ethernet controller TPM.
Doma re: IBM TSS
Are you sure that IBM's TSS works with anything except Atmel?
I thought one hallmark of the NTRU TSS is that it works with all TPMs...I would not have thought the IBM TSS is so enabled.
Doma re: NSM and NTRU!
I have not been here much recently so I missed the NSM/NTRU connection! Great find!
I beleive the original NSM SafeKeeper licensed the IBM TSS...NSM changing to NTRU TSS is good for Wave!
I wonder if IBM can/will tweek their software to interface with the NTRU TSS.
Hi Doma
You are right...PC OEMs spreading different TPM silicon across their platforms, notably desktops vs. laptops.
He did mention that in the CC and it would indeed provide an extra incentive for Dell to provide ETS/ESC since they might very possibly implement different TPMs at the same time.
Well, we also know that even for single silicon PC OEMs that Wave offers the best platform anyways!
re: NSM v1.2 TPM
1. Has anybody inquired to NSM as to the schedule for release of their v1.2?
2. Just a thought, but I wonder if Wave IP to be used in NSM's v1.2 will be any different from the IP currently licensed to their v1.1b? Wave seems to have enjoyed a particularly robust relationship with NSM over the years, so I wonder if there is something else from Embassy that might be relevant to NSM's upcoming v1.2.
Doma...you were right...good work! e/
edit: Something I find interesting about Atmel's new embedded TPM (small pin count) is that it offers up a new focus for Atmel in the TPM market in view of the IBM PC business they appear to losing to NSM.
go-ks re: customer support
I assume TPM software user support calls will be directed to Wave if it's Wave's software, whether it's a Dell, Gateway or any other PC that uses Wave's software...for example STMicro's PC OEMs. Of course if the user upgrades their Wave software from Wave, then it will be Wave for sure that will be providing user support.
It will be very interesting to see if a good % of IBM and HP machines end up with Wave software. Dell is the largest piece of the enterprise market.
Wildman re: Atmel
The STMicro bundling deal suggests that it will be the TPM OEM who will provide software support when supplying a PC OEM who does not have their own software. For example both IBM and HP provide their own software so in the case of Atmel selling TPMs to IBM, Atmel only has to be concerned that their TSS works with the IBM software, and is otherwise not concerned with providing IBM with the software. Apparently STMicro will be selling to PC OEMs that do not have TPM software, hence the Wave bundling.
So, it stands to reason that if Atmel is to supply OEMs other than IBM, that they would need to provide software such as Wave's so that their OEM customers will be able to offer an enabled platform.
oknpv, I agree! e/
Snackman, it's always a pleasure! e/
Hi Snackman
I agree except that I think we can expect licensing revenues to be quite modest compared to what will be realized for the selling of per seat services and server licenses. But you are correct on the income sources:
1. Licensing fee (Wave crytograpic IP) paid for every single SafeKeeper shipped. Definitely a boost for shareholders to see Wave aboard such a high volume item!
2. Bundling of ETS by PC and chip OEMs...known cases are Intel and STMicro. In the case of STMicro it's interesting that their OEM customer(s) apparently are content to take the bundled ETS delivery from STMicro (their TPM vendor) and not in a bundling deal with Wave directly. Perhaps we will still see ETS bundled by NSM per the STMicro deal.
3. Sales of server licenses and per seat services.
Also:
1. There is further potential for the licensing of Wave's IP in the wireless space to name just one possibility.
2. Embassy E2100 in government applications to name just one possibility.
Doma re: no NSM TPM software
No software is listed for NSM, as there is for Infineon's TPM, because NSM does not offer it's own NSM software, whereas Infineon does. I realize you know that, just clarifying your observation for the other readers.
I do however think there is an excellent chance that various deals will emerge between Wave and PC OEMs who are implementing NSM's SafeKeeper, where ETS is either bundled by or jointly promoted with the PC OEMs.
Thanks
player1234/rachelelise...thanks. e/
Hi player1234
But do you know if the SEC in turn requires the company to issue a public statement acknowledging that they have received a delisting notice from the Nasdaq?
edit: Hi zen!
As you already know Wave will be/is aboard all NSM SafeKeepers (all NSM TPMs) with their crytographic engine IP. What's remains unknown is what Wave software (ETS) bundling arrangements will be made on a per PC OEM basis. In other words whereas any implementing PC OEM will be implementing an NSM chip that uses Wave IP for which NSM pays Wave, it's likely still the choice of the PC OEM to include Wave TPM management software (ETS). Personally I think Dell is an excellent candidate since Dell will likely not develop their own TPM software, and Wave's only competitor, Infineon, does not offer the interoperability on their platform that Wave offers.
Another factor in any announcements at this point by Wave, is that the negotiations with NSM for the revised licensing terms may not have yet been finalized. And, the question of PC OEMs licensing ETS may be a factor in those negotiations. For example it's possible that the new NSM terms will be similiar to the STMicro deal where NSM would bundle Wave software (Embassy's ESC and CSP) if that arrangement is agreeable to NSM's PC OEM customers. Sounds like Wave is making their "launch kit" bundling package available for cheap, so IMO it's a no brainer for the PC OEMs.
So, perhaps we are seeing some selling pressure from the $.85 investors, locking up their quick profits? Personally I think $.10-.15 profit is modest but on $.85 it does equate to over 10%.
svenm... STM terms unannounced. e/
theguvna re: Wave selling services
Hopefully the renogotiated NSM licensing terms will be similiar to those with STMicro, where Embassy Security Center and Wave's CSP will be bundled with the TPM. ESC is a great launching point for TPM users and will definitely help drive Wave's aftermarket.
As best we know, Wave will receive a royalty for every SafeKeeper for Wave IP (crytographic library). What is unknown is whether additional fees will result from bundling Wave software per the STMicro deal.
Likely, it's up to each PC OEM with respect to accepting any Wave bundling. Bundling can be presented two ways:
1. A Wave CD ships with the PC and will be up to the user to install.
2. The PC OEM pre-loads the Wave software on the PC.
If bundling is not presented, then the user will only be able access Wave software directly from Wave or through a Wave reseller.
Whitewash...always a pleasure! e/
Hi zen!
Seems that NSM is first to market with an integrated TPM. Broadcom is yet to announce any product placement for their version.
Therefore NSM's 1.1b is the only integrated product available. It's highly logical that NSM has a 1.2 under development.
When Broadcom does finally announce product deployment, it's my guess it will be 1.1b. Broadcom licenses Infineon's TSS (TCG Software Stack) for their TPM, so unless Infineon has a 1.2 TSS ready, Broadcom's TPM will be 1.1b.
awk
They will have to have Wave's ESC/CSP platform...of course!
zen P.S.
Yes of course awk's question was a rhetorical one!!!
rosie btw...THANKS! e/
barge re: NSM Super I/O
I can see why Wave needed to renogotiate the licensing terms...LOL! Looks like the big three OEMs are all involved with this.
Would not surprise me to see new licensing terms with NSM similiar to the STMicro agreement.
It's obvious...no deploying OEM can go without Wave's ESC and CSP platform!
OT: attn: RWK
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