Tornado Alley (PROG)

[fuagf]

brooklyn13, There are responses to attacks, and responses. I'll remind you of positions
of two very prominent and respected Israel leaders. One late, one still with us.

Ehud Barak blames Binyamin Netanyahu for “the greatest failure in Israel’s history”

See also: Vengeance Is Not a Policy
"There Is a Jewish Hope for Palestinian Liberation. It Must Survive.
"Omar and Tlaib Are Condemned in the US for Saying What Prominent Israelis Are Saying
"Supporting Palestinian rights is antisemitic because Israel wants it to be"""
https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=173028605
.. and ..
Netanyahu’s Betrayal of Democracy Is a Betrayal of Israel
"Israel’s Netanyahu back in power with hard-line government"
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[...]
Mr Barak advises the government not to rush a ground operation. “We’re not facing an existential threat from Hamas,” he says. “Israel will win this.” Once all the reservists who have been called up have undergone refresher training, Israel can take control of most of the Gaza Strip and destroy Hamas’s centres of power and military capabilities “in two to six weeks.” Unlike the major ground operations in 2009 and 2014, when Israel simultaneously entered different areas of the Gaza Strip, thinks Mr Barak, this time the offensive could be carried out in stages.

Although he is confident about the army’s ability to pulverise Hamas in Gaza, the IDF will face some constraints. Israel has acknowledged that Hamas took more than 120 civilians and soldiers hostage. Mr Barak thinks that a ground operation should be delayed if an agreement can be reached to release some of them.

He also wants Israel to ensure that its actions are seen as legitimate by the wider world. In the aftermath of the terrorist attack most Western governments offered Israel their full support. But “the support also comes with an expectation we abide by international law in our operations,” Mr Barak warns. “Support will erode when there is footage of ruined homes [in Gaza] with bodies of children and weeping old women.” America’s naval presence—on October 14th it deployed a second aircraft carrier group to the eastern Mediterranean—is partly designed to deter outside actors from entering or escalating the conflict. But it “also emphasises Israel’s need to operate according to international law”.
[...]
Mr Barak believes that the optimal outcome, once Hamas’s military capabilities have been sufficiently degraded, is the re-establishment of the Palestinian Authority in Gaza. The authority, which was established under the Oslo Accords and runs the autonomous parts of the West Bank, was ousted from Gaza by Hamas in a bloody coup in 2007. However he warns that Mahmoud Abbas .. https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2022/08/23/the-ageing-ailing-palestinian-leader-does-not-do-much-governing , the Palestinian president, “cannot be seen to be returning on Israeli bayonets”. There will, therefore, need to be an interim period during which “Israel will capitulate to international pressure and hand Gaza over to an Arab peacekeeping force, which could include members such as Egypt, Morocco and the United Arab Emirates. They would secure the area until the Palestinian Authority could take control.” Yet for now, other countries in the region seem to have no desire to contribute troops to such a force.

And then there is the great reckoning that will take place in Israel once the war ends. Questions will be asked as to who was responsible for the failures in intelligence and planning that allowed Hamas to take Israel so completely by surprise and to then reach civilian communities where they committed such horrific crimes.

“The immediate operational problems are being fixed now,” he says. “But a much deeper assessment will have to take place later.” When that happens, he is convinced that the blame will fall on Mr Netanyahu. “It will be clear that, above all, Netanyahu had a flawed strategy of keeping Hamas alive and kicking… so he could use them [Hamas] to weaken the Palestinian Authority so that no-one in the world could demand that we hold negotiations [with the Palestinians].”

[Insert: Netanyahu’s policy of relying on Hamas to keep the Gaza prison from boiling over allowed his government to focus all its attention on advancing .. https://apnews.com/article/west-bank-benjamin-netanyahu-israel-government-e36ed7260e0398406d9a8ba319b0b741 .. West Bank settlement,promoting .. https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/22/middleeast/israel-judicial-overhaul-palestinian-fears-mime-intl/index.html#:~:text=She%20refers%20to%20the%20overhaul,the%20end%20of%20last%20year. .. a judicial overhaul to enable annexation without granting Palestinians civil or political rights, and raiding .. https://apnews.com/article/israel-west-bank-jenin-militants-raids-ba4cfdd551349900aefb43158b6f2bcb .. Palestinian cities and refugee camps to arrest or kill militants it could no longer rely on the Palestinian authorities to control. While the wardens were looking the other way, the prisoner organizations in Gaza put their carefully concealed plans for a revolt into effect.
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Few people know the Israeli prime minister better than Mr Barak.
[...]
Mr Netanyahu is squarely to blame for the crisis, believes Mr Barak. Israel’s strategy towards the Palestinians has backfired. “Because the deaths were mainly of civilians and the state has forsaken its most basic commitment to its citizens—to keep them alive—this was the worst type of negligence.”

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We know you don't like Netanyahu, but i have seen you only ever put all the blame for the situation on
Hamas. And i think Barak has more insight and understanding of the situation than any of us here do.

**

Now to the quotes i was chasing, you know them both well

All the Palestinians coming home, of course, is one of the Zionists greatest no-nos.

" Yea, I would like to see all of these Palestinians move into Israel and start displacing the people who live there. "

As Peres told them so many decades ago:

That is, Peres thinks that the Likud Party and its partners are living in a fool’s paradise if they believe they can annex the whole of Palestinian territory without getting the Palestinians as Israeli citizens eventually. And then, Peres says, no more Israel as a Jewish state.
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[...]
Reminder: Related: Ehud Barak: the military mast aring a US television interview last year that he would "probably" strive for nuclear weapons if he were in Iran's position.
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With more -- https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=174402440

Only a sentence more here -- https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=174402925

brooklyn13, We all feel Israel's pain. Just both Peres then and Barak now were and are able to have a much
more realistic look at it than you are willing to do. They as some of us here today also feel Palestinian pain.

"If you don’t want a fucking war don’t start a fucking war.
I know, this is the first one, ever, in which innocent civilians are being killed during war
Maybe Hamas could release the hostages or surrender or accept the ceasefire?
Why should they when they can count on gullible mooks like you to carry their water?"

Netanyahu wants it all, yes - river to the sea - and to stay out of jail. And Netanyahu wants the Palestinian National Authority .. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority .. out of the picture too. You are at odds with both the Peres and the Barak thoughts. It's only right and realistic to also consider what the Palestinians want, to end this war.

There is an old saying .. put yourself into the other's shoes...