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pasolboy: That's what RA claims. The auctioneer has been quoted as saying about 1M:
Seller, auctioneer differ on Jackson auction tally in Las Vegas
Associated Press - June 1, 2007 5:24 PM ET
http://www.deserttelevision.com/Global/story.asp?S=6599948
Both are exagerating. The final total was less than 600K, 720K when you add in Guernsey's 20% buyers premium. I can provide you with HTML copies of my xls files that directly link to the results as reported by the eBay listings. Each entry provides a direct link to the results for that item, so you can try to find where my numbers went wrong, but you won't.
Items that did remained open after each session closed (0.00 result during the auction session) were later closed out by marking them as closed at the minimum bid of 100.00. This was done to remove them from the active list. However, even if you add in 100.00 for each of those items, the total is well under 610K/722K.
virginian: Occasionally, when something exciting or really interesting happens, I'll sign up for a monthly subscription. But 99% of the time, I rarely come close to double digit posts.
I'm frugal. Don't like to pay for what I don't use. And, those rare times I pay for a month, I find myself posting way too many absolutely meaningless posts (beyond the meaningless posts most people here think I already post), and wasting my time, all in a misguided attempt to get my 12.95 worth.
Trust me, if anything really exciting happens here that I think needs me to go beyond 15 posts, I'll get a monthly subscription.
nsearle: Nice to see he responded, with apparent candor and honesty.
Does make one wonder how good their DD was on TCLL before they did the deal.
Ouch...
virginian: You know that I don't believe for 1 second that any such offer was made - RA makes patently false claims all the time (2M to move the items to Las Vegas?).
But let's give you the benefit of the doubt. If there was such an offer (actually, he was quoted the next day as saying he turned down a 75M offer), it was one of the biggest blunders he could ever make.
What do you think would have happened to this stock if he took the check, put out an 8K announcing the deal, which outlined exactly what he was going to do with the money)?
If there were any shorts (which I don't believe either), it would have hurt bad. And it surely would have made some of his current stockholders quite well off financially.
Ok, so he would have had to pay a shitload in capital gains on the 50M, or on any profits he ever makes on this deal (if any), but there certainly would have been plenty left over for buybacks and dividends.
Oh well...
virginian: Interesting definitions, but still muddy up the identification of ownership, particularly the opening sentence in the second link:
The "owner of master recording" is the person or company who covers the costs of making a sound recording of a musical work and is therefore usually the owner of it.
Clearly RA didn't cover the costs of making the recordings in the first place.
But I'm not sure it really matters - There are CDs available that cover every song MJ or the Jacksons ever recorded, in numberous combinations of regular releases and greatest hits. Don't see much of a market in trying to put out new ones from the masters, even if someone could.
The question of value lies in the 14 unreleased songs.
If there is any value, it will take a very long time for any of us to find out. But I'm sure that RA will remind the world that he has these tapes often...
virginian: You would think that lawyers working out a settlement would be able to adequately communicate with each other just what 20 items means the first time around. Not only that, RA's lawyer apparently didn't adequately communicate what it meant to the judge.
But then, we are talking about legal speak...
Somewhat interesting info about the MJ settlement. It appears that the settlement ran into some trouble.
The following link is to RB info about a hearing to clarify the settlement (what the meaning of 20 items is). According to the info about the hearing, MJ's settlement allowed him to select 20 items from a list of 58 auction items. USXP's lawyer balked at the fact that he select 20 auction items, but that some of those items included more than one physical item. RA's lawyer wanted the settlement redefined as to limit MJ to 20 physical items, but the judge believed that MJ was correct in picking 20 of the 58 listed auction 58 items.
http://ragingbull.quote.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=USXP&read=521766
Apparently the matter didn't get settled because a new court hearing about the issue is scheduled for 6/6/2007:
http://ragingbull.quote.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=USXP&read=521863
Here's a link to info about the court case as reported by that court:
http://courtgate.coca.co.clark.nv.us/DistrictCourt/asp/CaseActivity.asp
I analyzed all of the auction items that closed during the auction with no bid registered (all of those items are now marked as closed at 100.00, the minimum bid, because until eBay did that, they'd still be listed on their site as active, even though the auction is over). Most of these items show that there were no bids. But there are 63 that originally closed with no bid, but now show at least one absentee bid had been made. Of those 63, there are 43 that show more than one absentee bid had been made.
It is pretty clear to me that even if RA loses this argument over what 20 actually means, there are some items that will return to his control. Which ones, I have no idea. But some.
Just thought you guys might find this interesting, if for no other reason than it verifies that the settlement did allow MJ to take back ownership of 20 items of his choice. Explains why many of what were the best items listed in the auction got no bids.
lifegear: Last post for today (15th) - Yes. In fact, I posted a 'transcript' of what RA said during it here.
Did you get filled at .0006 yet? The Bid and Ask briefly dropped to .0005 x .0006 earlier.
As for buying because of my BS, well, whatever floats your boat.
Goodnight and good luck.
virginian: I'm saying he can't use them to re-release the material. What value they have after that, I have no idea, but there isn't much left for which they can have value.
virginian: There are 14 unreleased songs, per RA's claim. That is enough to make a cd that can include any of those that weren't copyrighted, which is a stretch to assume that they'd cut a master tape of songs they forgot to copyright.
As for being worth alot to whoever owns the Jackson catalog, I think it is pretty safe to assume they have their own set of high quality recordings, probably digitally enhanced and saved on digital media, which could explain why the 'master tapes' are kicking around.
Good luck with that. If those 14 songs aren't copyrighted, he might have something - assuming that the reason they never copyrighted and released them wasn't because they sucked.
lifegear: Could, if like I said, the Jacksons somehow made a master tape of songs they didn't bother to copyright.
But then you have to ask yourself why were they never released? Could be they never got around to it. Could be that the songs really suck.
You can hang your hat on the possibilities that they forgot to copyright the material. Good luck with that.
lifegear: That depends on RA. He has to somehow convince a fast majority of the people who bought the 10B or so shares based on his claims of megamillions in auction revenues that all is well.
I don't like his chances. He might be able to get people like you and virginian to let him get away with once again not delivering on his promises/claims, but a lot of people bought on the hype.
And, of course, he's been good at coming up with new promises/claims.
My only point has been that the master tapes are another promise he can never deliver on.
lifegear: That is the only possibility, but only if those unreleased songs were never copyrighted.
virginian: These are masters for released songs. Only 14 songs, by RA's claim, are unreleased.
Therefore, since they were released (put out as records and cds), your argument has no validity regarding anything except for the possibility of the 14 unreleased songs.
lifegear: Huh? He bought a collection of about 10000 items that included the tapes. He didn't sit down and negotiate a price for the tapes on their own.
Please, explain to me how anyone can re-release songs that were previously released by Capital Records and other major labels without their permission?
virginian: Do you think a record company released songs that weren't copyrighted? Do you think any song writer would let them do that?
And we're dealing with the Jacksons. Do you think they'd not copyright their songs?
And once the songs were released by a record company, who do you think has the intellectual rights to those songs? Do you think anyone can come along and re-release them?
According to RA, there are 14 unreleased songs recorded by the Jackson's. Do you really believe that MJ or his father had no business sense when it came to the music industry?
lifegear: That's not the point. The point is RA kept ranting to anyone who could possibly quote him about the fantastic amount of money the auction was going to raise. He's claiming to have something of extreme value (the tapes) that have no real value.
RA claimed he was going to buyback shares and give cash dividends based on the net proceeds (sorry, but the proceeds would have had to exceed expenses to be net - there are no net proceeds). There will be no buyback or cash dividend. He might continue to mutter about it, but it ain't going to happen.
He announced that he'd turned down a 50M offer, then the very next day he was quoted as saying he turned down a 75M offer.
He kept increasing the size of the collection from the 10000 announced at the purchase, to 20000 about a week before the auction, to 30000 a couple of days later.
As for USXP having any other value, that's up to you to decide. But in time you'll find out what the 'bashers' already know, and that is there is none.
Good luck to you anyway.
lifegear: And you continue to conveniently forget the copyright issue.
RA has admitted that these 'master tapes' contain only some unreleased songs. Copyright protects those, but lets go past that to the released songs - they are the intelectual property of the record company that released them. Doesn't matter whether they do or do not have their 'master tapes' they have the rights to the material.
Any attempt to re-release them would never fly - and if he did manage to pay an independent studio to create the cds for him, he'd get crushed in court.
Please, explain to all of us how he can possibly own the rights to these songs.
I'm not exactly sure what this last entry is all about. Is it just about CKYS failing to do something within the next 2 days, or is it about Plant as well?
If Plant is still fighting the SEC charges, it seems to me that his main defense has been 'I didn't do anything, someone else did it.'
Well, if that is his defense, then it would be foolish spending any money to defend the company itself. If anyone at the company committed the violations that the SEC is alleging, the company is also guilty.
Just a thought. Don't really know what's going on (obviously), but if the scenario I described above is correct, I'd expect the company to do nothing, and the SEC to file for default ruling.
tomvlasic: I don't think so. The SEC only does that when there is a massive amount of evidence that a company has no real business at all except for selling shares.
Doesn't mean that if they don't do it they think the company will survive. The SEC is perfectly willing to let the company go bankrupt (which is exactly what will happen if they fine the company any significant amount - the fines could be in the multi-millions range).
fishman444: There would be monetary penalties for Plant and CKYS. Plant would probably be barred from ever serving as an officer or board member of a publicly traded company.
Those are the typical results of a SEC prosecution. No reason to think anything would be different here, particularly if the SEC wins by default (no defense put up).
FHansen350: It means the SEC files a summary judgement request that seeks to have the judge find the defendents guilty, by default. The request also cites the remedies sought.
If Jim/CKYS don't get their legal act together now, it means the SEC wins now, and there is no appeal.
""We have two times the number of items here still in our warehouse," he said."
So much for having 30000 items.
lifegear: The copyright is granted by the US government to a specific individual, notably, the song writer. Unless that person signs over the rights to another individual, typically by contract with a singer or record company, the song cannot be used for commercial purposes.
There is no chance that anything that was left in the stuff that Vaccaro sold to RA and his entertainment partners gave him or them the rights to use any music, written or recorded, for commercial purposes.
He could try to buy the rights.
The numbers for today's afternoon session are in, and it was pitiful: 97,975.00.
That puts the total for the 3 sessions at 501250.00.
Tonight's listings aren't going to bring this thing anywhere near 750,000.00.
So much for the 10s of millions of dollars RA was hyping to anyone who could quote him.
virginian: I asked you this before. Which statement by RA was correct:
The 10000 items cited in the PR that announced the purchase (backed up by the info on the website)?
The 20000 items he began citing about a week before the auction?
Or the 30000 items he cited a couple of days later?
And what do you think could possibly be left to sell off after this auction (which, BTW, included over 7780 items in the lots by my count, and some lots had many more items likely than what I was counting)?
He sold a four poster bed, 16 lots of 20 each of the same victory programs, hundreds of magazine covers, thousands of pictures and slides, hundreds of records, fan mail, everything under the sun.
Whatever he has left wasn't worth trying to sell, or Guernsey's would have tried.
Stolen from the ANS Yahoo! board:
Hundreds of THOUSANDS (not MILLIONS).........
Michael Jackson auction pulls in hundreds of thousands of dollars
Shore area man who once held memorabilia also bought some items
Posted by the Asbury Park Press on 05/31/07
BY BOB CULLINANE
STAFF WRITER
A few weeks ago, Asbury Park contractor Henry Vaccaro vowed he would "absolutely not"' bid on any items of Michael Jackson memorabilia when those items came up for auction.
But when the auction began yesterday in Las Vegas, Vaccaro not only bid, but
purchased 10 items from the massive collection of Jackson family memorabilia he
once owned.
"I would have been crazy not to buy them,'' Vaccaro said of Jackson items he
bought at what he called bargain prices. "If you were there, you would have bought
them too."
Vaccaro was among a crowd of 75 to 100 bidders who attended the auction, run by Guernsey's Auction House, at the Hard Rock Hotel and Casino yesterday. The auction will conclude today with two more auction sessions.
Reports of the auction reflect mixed sales, with some items, like stage costumes
of the pop star, fetching nearly $20,000. Meanwhile, a platinum record for the
Jackson mega-hit "Billie Jean'' sold for just $100.
"There are about four or five serious bidders in the room,'' Vaccaro said this
morning, "and they're spending hundreds of thousands. Everything else is being
sold online.''
The Internet auction site eBay (www.ebay.com) is providing online bidders a
chance to join the auction through its ""live auction'' feature at http://search.ebay.com/michael-jackson_L...
Vaccaro said he purchased a "Muhammad Ali Boxing Superman'' comic book for $200 after seeing similar books sell at the auction for $1,100.
He also purchased a lithograph of a drawing of baseball stars Willie Mays, Bobby
Bonds and Barry Bonds, which is autographed by all three. Vaccaro said he paid $100 for the artwork and already has been offered $500 for it.
Vaccaro also bought some stage costumes worn by Germaine and Tito Jackson during the Jackson's 1984 “Victory Tour.”
"I'm having a lot of fun,'' Vaccaro said.
Read Friday's Asbury Park Press for full coverage of this story.
BTW: Anyone who wants me to prove my numbers, I will gladly email you html copies of my xls files, one for each auction session. Each will list all of the items as active links to the items on eBay, the number of items each lot actually contained (sometimes a best guess), and the closing price.
It should be noted though that all of the items that had no buyers during these two auctions now appear on eBay as having sold at the minimum bid of 100.00 each. This was done to close them out so that they would not still be reported as active.
ETrade shows that .0002 is 122.22% higher than yesterday's sub-.0001 close. It should be possible to do the math to see how much lower than .0001 was the actual close.
Sorry, but no. The best stuff went off yesterday (what they didn't give back to MJ as part of the settlement, anyway).
Go to eBay and take a half-hour or so reviewing the listing of the items available today. There are some items that may get over 1000.00, but very, very few.
101,700 (though that may be off by 50.00, as others have come up with 101,650).
Afternoon auction was just over 301K.
Together, just over 403K.
The live auction they are talking about is the same as the regular auction. Just reports the results of the bidding, internet and floor.
It is not a separate auction.
lifegear: RA may own some tapes, though we have no independently verifiable evidence of that, but he does not own the copyrights for the material. Without the copyrights, there isn't much he can do with those tapes at all.
I'll be double-checking my numbers tomorow AM, but this auction's results were pitiful: 101,700.
Just over 403K today.
When you get down to .0001 trading, trades can go off for less that that price. .00005 trades would show up as 0, because the quote services aren't able to handle sub .0001 trades.
But they can happen. Some brokers allow them.
xbingshot1: Sorry, I didn't mean to give everybody so much false hope...
The 20% is Guernsey's cut. eBay gets something, but I'm not sure what.
RA doesn't get any of Guersey's cut, in fact, he may have to pay a sellers commission.
Sorry, there was a rather large error in my file. Total is actually much lower at 301625.00.
358900.00
What he'll have left is pretty much worthless. First off, he originally announced in the PR where he stated he AND PARTNERS bought the collection that it had about 10000 items. About a week before the auction he claimed it had 20000 items, then about a day or two later 30000. With RA its always best to believe the smaller number of multiple claims.
When I built my spreadsheet this weekend I looked at every lot and recorded how may items it contained. I came up with over 7500 items, and there were several lots that it was impossible to determine how many items there were, because no number was given, yet the item clearly indicated large number of items - some probably several hundred pieces.
Now if you go to the USXP website and see the description RA gives, if you go to the last PDF, you'll see he lists only 1800+ items (some multiple items per listing, just as with the auction items), and states that another 1900 existed that weren't worth noting.
So, it pretty much looks like he has gotten every item that the auction house thought there was a chance of selling into the auction.
Now, clearly there are going to be a lot of items that didn't even get 100.00 minimum bid (a stupid limit). But I don't think any auction house will hold another auction to try to sell them (he could just try selling them on eBay himself).
Good luck to you...
P.S. Yes, my speadsheet is adding up the items as I enter the prices they get.