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I don't know the answers to your questions, Velcro. My guess is that they went with EnergyOr because they were available for a song, that they were relatively nearby, and that, by owning them, PLUG had full control of the direction of the engineering studies and tests to suit their own goals.
As to PLUG having a history of powering small UAVs, it seems they are happy to take credit for things EnergyOr did before PLUG bought them, as evidenced by this line on their webpage: Through our 2019 acquisition of Montreal, Canada-based EnergyOr...In March of 2015, we powered the world’s first fuel cell multirotor UAV, later used in conjunction with the French Air Force’s Centre d’ Expertise Aérienne Militaire (CEAM).
As for expecting PRs on any specific topic, I never know what to expect, but I'm usually happy with whatever they decide to share with us.
If anybody is interested in PLUG's progress in drone fuel cell technology, these links should provide some insight.
https://www.plugpower.com/applications/e-mobility/aerospace-uav/
https://www.plugpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/ProGen1kW_F090120sm.pdf
https://www.plugpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/ProGen300W_F090220sm.pdf
JB- I think you expect too much from a company that has already undertaken the challenge of changing the way the world powers itself.
From reading the press release on the EnergyOr acquisition, I don't see them promising to send drones to market. Instead, I see them promising to "integrate small, ultralightweight fuel cell technology into its already robust portfolio of ProGen hydrogen fuel cell engines in a capital efficient manner....further enhancing Plug Power to position as a comprehensive hydrogen fuel cell solutions provider for the future needs of logistics applications."
Further, Andy says, "It’s a natural progression for us to take our innovative technology and what we have learned in the material handling and e-mobility spaces and apply that to other industries that will thrive with HFCs. EnergyOr is the expert in the UAV fuel cell market, and we are excited to incorporate their technology and expertise as part of the Plug Power team.
https://www.ir.plugpower.com/Press-Releases/Press-Release-Details/2019/Plug-Power-Announces-Acquisition-of-EnergyOr/default.aspx
So, no. I don't see them ever intending to operate a drone business (or a car, truck, bus, or airplane business, for that matter). As they stated, they bought EnergyOr to help them understand and engineer the hydrogen powered drone business.
The purchase appears to have been successful, as is shown by yesterday's news of that HevenDrones intends to include Plug Power's fuel cell stack technology and systems capabilities in their next generation of heavy lifting drones. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/plugpower-enters-alliance-hevendrones-commercialise-162236960.html
Even if some don't consider it news, it's still another win for Plug Power...and I'll happily take it.
PlugPower Enters Alliance with HevenDrones to Commercialise Hydrogen Drones
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/plugpower-enters-alliance-hevendrones-commercialise-162236960.html
We have been expecting Groton to be COD a long time now. Didn't we decide in about January that FCEL's part of the project was completed, and they were waiting for some other company to complete their electrical(?) work before it could go online?
Thanks stew, but the joke was that PLUG is building TPD (tons per day) plants and this analyst thinks he knows enough to place a $13 price tag on PLUG even though he didn't know that.
Good luck this week!
I think there are also several investors who are pleased with PLUG's mega-symposium, as PLUG held to a 14.9% rise for the week. Let's see if next week gives a better indication of how many are in each camp.
Does anybody know what a temperature programmed desorption plant is? This guy says PLUG is planning 1000 of them by 2028. He also gives them a price target of $13. https://www.thestreet.com/investing/coker-palmer-lack-of-detail-plug-power Very deep analysis, indeed!
Thanks Steve. Here is a link to the full news release...and it has a cool photo to boot. https://www.airflow.aero/news/plug-power-10-2021
WTM- From this article: " Considered alternative fuels under the Energy Policy Act of 1992, CNG and LNG are sold in units of gasoline or diesel gallon equivalents (GGEs or DGEs) based on the energy content of a gallon of gasoline or diesel fuel."
https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/natural_gas_basics.html
Interesting article, WTM. It goes to show that when using the same comparison unit, in this case a tank of fuel, hydrogen is easily seen to be the superior choice.
Plug Power lawsuit dismissed
Tonawanda Seneca Nation had challenged the findings of environmental impact study of hydrogen power plant at Genesee County industrial park
By Mark Scheer
A judge has rejected the Tonawanda Seneca Nation’s legal challenge to the findings of an environmental review of the planned construction of a $264 million hydrogen fuel plant in rural Genesee County.
In a Sept. 28 ruling, Genesee County Judge Charles Zambito determined that the nation failed to add the plant’s developer, Plug Power, as a “necessary party” in a lawsuit that sought to prevent the company from building its new plant near “sacred” hunting grounds on the nation’s territory in the Town of Alabama.
“The Nation is considering next steps in light of this decision,” said Gussie Lord, an attorney with the group Earthjustice, the nonprofit environmental law firm that assisted the Tonawanda Seneca Nation in filing its legal claim.
Plug Power, an Albany company that specializes in the development of hydrogen fuel cell systems, announced in May plans to build the new “green hydrogen” plant at the Science, Technology and Advanced Manufacturing Park, a 1,250-acre industrial site that is being developed near the edge of the Nation’s territory in Genesee County.
The nation filed an initial lawsuit on June 4, naming the Genesee County Economic Development Agency as the lone defendant and challenging the agency’s finding that “all potential impacts” associated with the project had been “adequately addressed.” On June 18, the Nation filed an amended motion to add as defendants officers of Plug Power and the Genesee County Economic Development Agency.
In both legal filings, leaders from the Nation argued that the project had the potential to infringe upon “property of religious and cultural significance” on the nation’s territory, including the “Big Woods,” a dense forest area near the western edge of the STAMP site.
In his ruling, Zambito determined that the nation filed its initial lawsuit within the four-month window allowed for objecting to the findings of environmental reviews. However, he also determined that the nation’s amended filing failed to add Plug Power as a respondent in a timely fashion and ruled the company was a “necessary party” to allow the nation’s lawsuit to move forward.
Officials with the Genesee County Economic Development Center have spent $26 million in mostly state funds on land acquisition, design, engineering and other “soft” costs at STAMP. Plug Power is scheduled to become the first commercial tenant at the site and has agreed to build a $55 million substation that would provide electricity to its plant as well as future STAMP tenants.
In exchange for creating 68 full-time jobs at the hydrogen fuel facility, Plug Power will receive tax breaks and power discounts totaling $270 million, representing a subsidy equal to more than $4 million per job.
JB- Why anyone would want a more enigmatic (puzzling & darkly expressed) CEO is beyond me. Sanjay has also been out there spreading the PLUG vision.
Also, the $500 DOE loan offer was reported in a news release: https://www.ir.plugpower.com/Press-Releases/Press-Release-Details/2021/Plug-Power-Invited-to-Submit-Part-II-Application-for-Proposed-520-million-from-DOEs-Title-XVII-Loan-Guarantee-Program/default.aspx Is that what greg wanted?
Also, when Andy said he expects high hydrogen costs to resolve themselves, he said it after explaining the reasons for the high costs and what was done to mitigate them. There is no reason for a follow-up news release to announce that hydrogen costs have dropped.
As for the cost of production plants, the GA plant is expected to cost $84 million as per this news release: https://www.ir.plugpower.com/Press-Releases/Press-Release-Details/2021/Plug-Power-Announces-Green-Hydrogen-Plant-in-Camden-County-Georgia/default.aspx , and the green hydrogen plant in NY is expected to cost $290 million per this news release: https://www.ir.plugpower.com/Press-Releases/Press-Release-Details/2021/Plug-Power-to-Build-North-Americas-Largest-Green-Hydrogen-Production-Facility-in-Western-New-York/default.aspx. I notice that, when there is a partner, PLUG doesn't talk numbers. There might be a reason for that.
As to greg's concern about a growing pipeline of customers not being revealed, as long as Andy keeps raising, and beating, the projected revenues, I have no problem waiting for the customers' names until he is able to provide them.
The only thing wrong with Plug Power stock is a national financial system that is flirting with disaster. It has nothing to do with the company's transparency or leadership. Also, when reposting from other boards, please make an attempt to verify what is being reposted.
Velcro- I agree, but don't forget PLUG was asked to apply for $500 million in government aid earlier this year. Maybe they don't need a stimulus package to receive some money.
I don't see anything about PLUG or the hydrogen industry in your post. I also don't see anything true about the Dems.
Steve- From nvestment on StockTwits:
Feels like Universal Hydrogen tweet today about new office in France and Plug having Airbus on symposium agenda are linked.
Interesting fact: PLUG has jobs posted for 55 different locations.
JB- Has PLUG announced any deals with Airbus? I notice there is an Airbus VP presenting at the symposium.
Does anybody think PLUG might see a few dollars from this project? https://hydrogen-central.com/sk-group-south-korea-hydrogen-port/
SK Group to Build South Korea Hydrogen Port
September 14, 2021
South Korean conglomerate SK Group will spearhead a project to build a port energy ecosystem for production, logistics, consumption, and utilisation of hydrogen.
SK has signed a memorandum of understanding with the country’s ministry of oceans and fisheries, which considers ports as the best place for the construction of a hydrogen complex station, converting port mobility and vessels to hydrogen fuel, and building a blue hydrogen production base. Blue hydrogen is produced using natural gas and capture and storage technology.
Energy company SK E&S plans to build the first hydrogen complex station in the Yeosu Gwangyang Port by 2023 to serve as a base for supplying liquefied hydrogen gas to ports and a hinterland complex.
The ministry said it will review the possibility of creating a hydrogen energy ecosystem for major ports nationwide, including Busan Port, Incheon Port, and Ulsan Port to supply more than 60% of South Korea’s total hydrogen consumption through hydrogen ports by 2040.
Earlier this year, SK Group announced plans to invest around $16.5bn over the next five years to establish a domestic hydrogen energy industry.
Part of the investment will be directed to the construction of a liquefied hydrogen production facility with a capacity of 30,000 tons per year from 2023. In the second stage of its hydrogen roadmap, SK E&S will build a blue hydrogen plant by 2025 capable of producing 250,000 tons per year.
WTM- Much easier to understand. Thank you for explaining it so well.
Do you know the current price of a kg of hydrogen?
WTM- The only thing we disagree on is the amount of gasoline it takes to equal the energy output of 1 kg liquid of liquid hydrogen. You say 2 gallons of gasoline while my simple computations say 2.7 gallons.
Either way shows the superiority of hydrogen.
Toofuzzy- The point I have been making is that comparing kilograms of hydrogen to gallons of gasoline, confuses people...even experts like JB.
Using the same unit of measure simplifies the comparison of each of their units of energy. Only once a comparable unit of energy between the two has been established, is it possible to do a cost analysis of each fuel.
My earlier posts established that it takes 2.7 times the gasoline to equal the energy gained from 1 unit of liquid hydrogen. Use whatever unit you want to use, but whatever it is multiply the cost of the gasoline by 2.7 for a comparable cost analysis.
JT- That was my point.
Since 1kg of liquid hydrogen has the same energy as one gallon of gasoline, and one gallon of gasoline has 2.7 times the weight, then, pound for pound, hydrogen has 2.7 times the energy of gasoline.
Andy should compare the two fuels pound for pound (or kg for kg). It would make his point more convincingly than how he is doing it now
JB- Maybe Andy is confusing us by comparing a unit of weight (kilogram) to a unit of volume (gallon).
1kg of hydrogen = 2.2 lbs
1 gallon of gasoline weighs 6.07 pounds, which means there are 2.76kgs in one gallon of gas.
Is it fair to compare 1 unit of something to 2.76 units of another thing to determine which is a more price efficient fuel?
Being fair, 1 kg of hydrogen = .45 gallons of gasoline, which is 1kg also.
What does this equal weight comparison do to Andy's cost comparison? Maybe Andy should start comparing the two fuels with the same weight or volume category.
Here is our silver tongued CEO being interviewed on Bloomberg today:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2021-09-20/marsh-plug-power-ceo-building-the-biggest-hydrogen-plant-video
Steve- Did you miss this portion of the news release?:
"The project includes construction of a new tertiary wastewater treatment plant in the city of Mendota that will provide recycled water for the people of Mendota and supply the full needs of the plant."
A waste water plant will be expensive, but I think the cost of it will be shared by CA governments.
JB- It may be CA is offering much higher incentives than NV. Either way, the yearly revenue seems extraordinary, especially considering that, once the plant is completed, the annual production costs should be minimal.
Solar panels last at least 25 years and fuel cells about 8?. The plant should practically run itself for 8 years.
JB- Good point. Everything is more expensive in California. The CA price of diesel gasoline is $4.31 a gallon as compared to the $3.37 national average.
https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_gnd_dcus_sca_w.htm
30 metric tons a day x 365 = 10,950 metric tons a year.
10,950 metric tons X 2200 lbs = 24.09 million lbs liquid hydrogen per year.
24.09 million lbs X .4 = 9.636 million gallons of diesel per year
9.636 million gals of diesel gasoline a year X $4.31 a gal = $41.53 million per year.
Maybe PLUG should plan more plants in CA. Lol!
WTM - Sounds profitable! Let's run some numbers:
1 metric ton = 2200lbs liquid hydrogen.
1lb liquid hydrogen = .4 gal of diesel gasoline.
https://afdc.energy.gov/files/u/publication/fuel_comparison_chart.pdf
50 metric tons per day = 18,250 metric tons of liquid hydrogen per year.
18,250 metric tons = 40.15 million lbs of liquid hydrogen per year.
40.15 million lbs liquid hydrogen = 16.06 million gals of diesel gasoline.
1 gal diesel gasoline = $3.37 U.S.
https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/
16.06 million gals per year = $54.12 million per year.
Update for this one plant: 30 tons = .6 of 50 tons
$54.12 million X .6 = $32.47 million per year. Not bad!
Your sacrifice is very much appreciated, uk.
Thanks Mikman77.
On another note, read this: https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/infrastructure/google-invests-1-billion-euros-in-germanys-digital-future
and this:
https://www.ir.plugpower.com/Press-Releases/Press-Release-Details/2019/Plug-Power-and-ENGIE-Partner-Globally-to-Expand-Use-of-Renewable-Hydrogen-and-Fuel-Cells/default.aspx
Does anybody think PLUG fuel cells will be used in this agreement somehow? If so, it could be big for us.
JT- I happy to hear anything about PLUG but I don't agree with these guys. All they see is numbers. To understand the history of the development of the hydrogen economy is to understand the reasons behind the years of losing money.
They cherry picked the worst reading of the most important category: operating revenue. We all know the reason for the large negative number for fiscal 2020, but your pundit isn't interested in knowing why. Except for that one reading, revenue is expanding at rocket-like speeds, and there is every reason to anticipate that velocity to increase in coming years.
Let me know when they turn positive on PLUG. That might be a signal to take some profits off the table.
JB- When doing the comparison you suggest, might I suggest those companies be viewed when they were at the same stage of development PLUG is at now?
I remember AAPL nearing bankruptcy and needing a huge infusion of cash from its main rival MSFT to remain in existence. At one point they had less than 90 days of cash in the bank. https://medium.com/illumination/how-microsoft-saved-apple-and-why-they-did-it-635f4fc8b058 So far PLUG hasn't needed a white knight to save them.
In 2017, AMZN had only posted a handful of profitable quarters and yet sported a $470 billion market cap. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmarkman/2017/05/23/the-amazon-era-no-profits-no-problem/?sh=5c93c18a437a Growing revenue without immediate concern about profits? Does that sound like anybody we know?
As for TSLA, this article from 2018 details its need to keep raising capital in order to fund its large losses highights the difficulties in bringing a game changing product to market before the market even knows it wants it. TSLA had amassed $9 billion in losses. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimcollins/2018/04/25/a-brief-history-of-tesla-19-billion-raised-and-9-billion-of-negative-cash-flow/?sh=6cedca0b3d65
In summation, I understand PLUG has had an even harder row to hoe than these companies, due to its farsighted prediction of a hydrogen economy being farther from realization than smart phones, online shopping, and BEVs, but, much credit due to Andy, the world is finally ready to embrace his vision. Will PLUG grow to the stature of AAPL, AMZN, and TSLA? Nobody knows the answer for sure, but we can be sure the budding hydrogen economy promises to eclipse all of their markets in total annual market value, and PLUG is staking out a sizeable worldwide claim in that economy.
Battered and bruised, after years of proving the worth of a hydrogen future to a resisting world, PLUG moves forward with over $3 billion in the bank, partnerships with world class companies across the globe, and a federal government prepared to throw hundreds of millions of dollars their way.
I'll take my chances with PLUG.
JB- That is true. Time will tell.
Nice find Jack.
Do I read correctly that Schumer wants PLUG to increase STAMP production from the planned 45 tons of green hydrogen per day to 500 tons per day, and he intends to use his power in the Senate to get the government money required to accomplish that? Quote from the article:
"By increasing the output from 45 tons to 500 tons per day, Plug Power would be creating 700 additional jobs at the STAMP site", Schumer said.
This would nearly double PLUG's current planned total U.S. green hydrogen production of 500 tons daily to 955 tons daily.
BIG NEWS if he can pull it off!
JB- I see. Today was planned a good bit in advance. Do you know what took him to Brussels?
Would you mind sharing with the board a brief biography of who you are? Nothing too personal needed.
Andy blew off the Hydrogen Shot Summit today. I wonder what came up that was more important? Sanjay filled in and did a good job.
The main impression I got from listening to it today is that there is a LOT of impending competition in every facet of the hydrogen space; and they are all running to win the race.
I wonder if PLUG might get added to the NASDAQ 100 this year. Their market cap would qualify them as of now, I think. If it was, that would remove a good bunch of the shares from the float.
There are lots of possible positive catalysts looming.
Jeff Bezos predicted Amazon drone delivery as early as 2015. GSEs are happening now. Last mile vans will happen when green hydrogen is plentiful and the customers are ready to roll them out. The federal government may play a part in speeding things up.
None of these sound like bigger hyperbole than what has, and is, being accomplished. Their times are coming soon.
I took your post 45144 as being as close as you'll come to giving a strong buy recommendation, and doubled my position in PLUG.