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Dread, where did the CEO update come from? I don't see anything on Torvec's website. I love the back and forth on this board, VERY interesting, but it's kind of weird that I get more real info, not just rants, on this board, than I do from Torvec.
BTW, IF the deals happen as described and IF that news gets distributed and understood by the general public, your back of the envelope figures might end up being low. THAT would be funny after a year of beating on this stock. Not as funny as American auto investors looking to China for innovation and growth. Too bad Dodge is run by Germans and GM is run by bad accountants.
That article seems about right. I don't see how GM avoids becoming another US Steel over the the next ten years. Maybe they will build new plants next to the ones Honda and Subaru built in the US and fill them with non-union labor. If they don't come up with a way to get rid of the $1,500 per car disadvantage, it won't matter what they do.
Gleason Power Systems was acquired in 1989 by Diesel Kiki, who then changed their name to Zexel. We adopted Torsen in the name to better distinguish what our division does as compared to the rest of Zexel Corporation.
Zexel Torsen, Inc. was a part of the global Zexel Torsen business which was majority-held by Robert Bosch Corporation since 1999. Torsen designs and currently manufactures the patented TORSEN® differential.
Toyoda Machine Works Ltd. purchased the worldwide Torsen division from Robert Bosch / Zexel Corporation. Zexel Torsen, Inc. has been renamed Toyoda-Koki Automotive Torsen North America Inc. to reflect this change. The company name change became effective September 1, 2003 -
From the Torsen.com website. Can't remember where I heard what the purchase amount was. Might have been at a stockholders meeting.
The more relevant fact would be how many millions did Toyota pay for the rights to the original, heavier, more expensive, Torsen. Of course that's all moot if no one is interested in Iso-Torque.
Tor, I agree with the jist of what you said. I hope you are right. I think Torvec has done a great job of making something from nothing up till this year. My concerns are on two issues. Why not spend a little of that stock earlier this year when it was hanging at 7 and put a better face to the public? That would have boosted the price enabling more funding for lots of things. IF this low profile was to appease some OEM for future bragging rights, what is that worth and how long do you do that without a deal? I HOPE that's the problem and not just some OEM stringing them along. If the competition is shorting us, how happy would they be with no PR from Torvec?
The other issue is company growth/size. I know Torvec has no intention of being a manufacturing company, but it sure seems like they could use someone who has experience with limited runs. I don't know what I'm talking about only what I see. DARPA here and gone. Is Motron or whatever that company was called out now? They aren't going to do auto navigation any more? If a remote FTV was a great idea 9 months ago, why stop working on it? Energy recapture, apparently Eaton has 'bags' that work to some degree, their problem is their earthmover, high pressure pump. Is the DodgeRam running or not? Is it being mothballed because Dodge is 'stupid' or is the testing finished to the point that nothing else can be learned? Didn't Torvec buy that truck? If nothing else, after the EPA smackdown, wouldn't it be worth driving around EPA headquarters with a lite up display showing the MPG under 35MPH? Sorry, that's a crazy idea. Anyway, is the Tahoe running? THAT was hyped, wasn't it? If it's testing is ongoing, how about an update? What happened with the Nissan windshield?
I don't expect answers to every question and I understand why Torvec would not want to reveal important information to potential competitors, but I don't get the split personality. Don't tout something if you aren't going to provide updates and the updates can be general enough to not reveal strategic information. Of course you would need someone who understands marketing to do that correctly. Instead we get engineers who take it personally when someone asks what is going on with a project THEY bragged about a few months earlier.
How about this, engineers work on making the metal things work better, someone else devotes themselves to making a deal and the MISSING person at Torvec, a person who updates the world in a way that makes the stock worth more, the ONLY funding this company has, which enables more things to be refined faster. I don't understand why that isn't a high priority, I don't understand why the question is mocked by engineers like they have all kinds of ad agency experience, and I don't understand why the empty suits they've hired to do that kind of planning have been so inept. Actually I do. It's because they are engineers and they think they know everything.
That said, if there is more going on than meets the eye and someone cuts a good deal, I take most of it back. After the missteps of the last year or two, I'm losing confidence anyone at Torvec even understands what I'm talking about. It's NOT hype, it's not slick hustle, it's about being on point and building confidence with anyone who follows the company, instead of bouncing all over the place. That's my opinion, I hope I'm wrong and the Torvec master plan is ready to hit the heights.
Maybe it's MY logic process, but I was going on the presentation of a stockholder meeting from 2 years ago when Keith was talking about the EPA projects, one of which was the energy recovery system. He was very happy to report that Torvec pumps could do a much better job because of the weight, cost and lower pressure efficiency. Skip forward a year or so and I see Eaton working with UPS. I thought Torvec was working on SOMETHING for school buses in that time, but I guess it was too busy getting new equipement installed.
If James thinks deriding ONE possible use of the vaunted Torvec pump for delivery truck energy recovery, means that all potential uses of that technology are not worth an effort by Torvec, then this company is in more trouble than I thought. He was much better off with the 'we are too small right now to pursue every path' line. Considering the coverage, sales and actual money that would come to Torvec IF they could get OUR pump working on any kind of car or truck, I would think it would be WORTH it. Don't tell me about how many school buses there are in the country that could benifit from Torvec and then not do anything about it. I KNOW the gearpack and the IVT are suppossed to be the school bus effort, but it's certainly big enough for large accumalator tanks/bags. I really don't care what kind of car/truck they put them on or what company they work with, I do care that they can't put some money and effort towards an idea they touted two years ago. Say you don't have the business organization to tackle THAT problem right now, DON'T tell me that it isn't worth the effort. How many trailer trucks are there in the world? How much money would they spend on something that would boost mileage? Even a non engineer can figure this out.
Look, the problem seems more and more obvious that Torvec is running into what a lot of small companies encounter. Someone hs a good idea and builds a company to a point where they need to start delagating responsiblities and start working as a team. Westinghouse was a marketer, he couldn't build a generator if his life depended on it. Tesla couldn't market free energy. Someone at Torvec ought to admit that they possibly aren't as good at product presentation, market research, and executive vetting as they are at engineering.
Keith had a heartfelt defense of James with his last open letter. Fine, good, everyone is doing the best they can and it's been wonderful in the past. Whatever. I hope there is a nice deal from Nissan with the Z-car and the Iso-Torque. Limited as it's market is. Nice eye candy, but definately a niche market. I'm guessing it's sales numbers vs Mustang or even Corvette are puny. If a deal is close, won't matter and it will be great news. Just not in the same league as a recovery system that would have the potential to save trucking lines millions as well as every school district with buses.
I think Torvec has some great WORKING machinery, but I'm real tired of the arrogance and stupidity of some of the public comments from management. It's one thing to ask for patience about companies that want to keep everything low profile, although how long you keep your widget under a basket so they can claim credit for it, might be debateable. It's another to mock ANY idea that would raise the public profile of this company. A company that touts videos on it's website. I take that as a desire for the world to see it's products. Maybe I'm confused about what 'public' means. The botched attempt at DARPA seems to indicate that someone at Torvec wants the world to notice them. So, I'm confused. I don't understand why some money hasn't been set aside to hire professionals to market this company. If that's what the $6 million spent on CXO-go away was meant to do, it didn't. Someone, like the people who found them and touted them, owes all of us an apology, not ridicule. But, I'm not an engineer, maybe in their world that all made sense.
Hey, I'm just tossing spitballs here. Just my opinions, take them for what their worth. I have some understanding of what it must have been like to actually get this stuff built and tested. That was an admirable effort. I admired it so much that I invested hard earned money into it. If people get upset because of anything I said on this board, too bad. Come back with some nonlame replies and I'll start cheering again. To say that there is some confusion about nonengineering aspects of Torvec seems to be a valid statement in my world.
I'm too impatient for my own good a lot of the time. I want Torvec pumps to work with energy recovery, IVT's or anything else. I'm sure that with enough kludges, Eaton can get their pumps to work and go to market with an energy recovery system that will make them a LOT of money. Ford's CVT may come up short against Torvec's IVT, but it is driving around right now, just like Audi's. Maybe a company so small and so thinskinned that they take the time to whine in public about something someone as insignificant as me says, can't compete in the marketplace. Especially when only 3,000 or so people know about them.
Even an idiot like me understands the problem with Dodge's masters, the Germans. They were not going to toss that Audi monstrosity for the IVT. No matter how many engineers were excited by the Torvec product and I heard someone say at the last annual meeting that some were impressed, it only takes ONE German who loves the Audi contraption more to kill it. Where this moron, me, goes off the track is why that matters. So what if Dodge didn't bite. How does that keep someone from driving it to Washington with a big sign that says, around town this truck gets ...% better milage than any truck it's size? Too high profile? Instead people can find out about Torvec through a court action.
BTW, I'd also have big photos of the FTV doing it's thing in the mud vs the Jeep. I guess I'm the one who is crazy. Why would we want to tell the world about this stuff when we are so close to a deal? Hey, if that's the case, great.
I know it's a stunt, but so was the Jeep thing and Torvec management seemed tickled with that. Since I have a virtual $600,000, I'd find some sand dunes and spec out just what the FTV can do. Then I'd truck it to California and talk to Jay Leno. He loves auto tech. I'd show him some stunts on the beach vs Jeeps. Oh, hey I hear the snorting from Torvec headquarters from here, BUT Jay does have a restoration garage with staff who could be contacted and shown marketing stuff or actual stuff. He does drive his Stanley Steamer, former firetruck, Ford GT, Rodded up Buick, converted Toranado, jetbike, and regular old motorcycles to a nearby bar where gearheads hang. Park it THERE. It would be fun to see the IVT in print in his column in Popular Mechanics. Think that might help the stock?
BTW. Even Jesse James is thinking 'green'. He's going to go for the land speed record with a hydrogen powered car. Right now BMW holds the record. He loves the idea of pouring water into a fuel cell and going fast. Maybe HE could use the pumps, the IVT or 'steerdrive' on a monster car. These are out of the box ideas where any idea is considered. Guess what? As farfetched as anything that I have suggested on this board is, it's still has more merit that anything CXO go nowhere, has done and it didn't cost anyone $6 million.
Zendo has me thinking of a virtual campaign using a virtual $600,000. Oh, never mind. James says no one can get a hold of any high profile, newsworthy people, who would love to be associated with 'green' tech. I guess that's why Tom Hanks was on letterman talking about an electric car company he sunk a couple of million into, because he likes wasting money. Paul Allen of Microsoft would be another person to contact. Oh, silly me, I forgot NO one can even approach them, you have to hire auto 'executives' who can make the BIG deal. Well, where is it? All the last year has proved is what anyone who put together a powerpoint show for a high level management type already knows, 99% of them have ONE priority, THEM. They never take a risk, they never do their homework. They are masters of writing THEIR contract, but have difficulty getting up to speed on the most basic informtion about what their company actually makes. I've seen it up close and personal at Kodak, Xerox, Bausch & Lomb, IBM and elementK. Maybe it's just me, but I get the strong feeling that is the kind of leadership Torvec bought into.
What I don't get is the videos on the website. Obviously someone at Torvec is proud of what the FTV can do and the Jeep looking like a Model T. Someone wants the world to see the ice demos, the Dodge IVT running, etc. If that's the case why not promote it? Is the website only suppossed to be for people in the know? If the last 2 or 3 companies that were hired or partnered up with were the ones who were suppossed to do this, they were utter failures. How many more people know about Torvec tech than knew about it a year or two ago?
Considering the state of signed deals and the stock price, I'd say almost anyone's opinions ought to be considered. How much worse could their theories be than EXO on the go, outta here? Shame on the guy who hooked up with the guidence tech people for DARPA. THAT was bushleague. Either announce that it's 'development' tech and you hope to make this year's challenge OR debug it far enough ahead of time to be sure it works. Going in halfdonkeyed is worse than not doing it at all. In my opinion. Hire an engineer or two and get an old school bus and start developing the energy capture system. If that hasn't started already.
Instead of hiring another empty suit who has been downsized from one of the big three, hire someone who actually knows how to sell, anything. NOT a sales manager, NOT a VP of sales, someone who has INCREASED market share, who knows how to present, who knows how to show any client how they can make more money for less cost. I worked with a guy like that who got the maximum for his company and still made the client feel like he was getting a great deal. NOT somekind of 'discount', but a higher level of quality for less money than the competition. He's working for Kodak last I heard.
I respect the quality of the engineering at Torvec. I've committed what is for me, significant money on the future of this company. I know the reluctance of any firm to change or try new tech. BUT if the engineering is worth the best people and equipement, so is the public face of the company. Some people NEVER get that. We've all seen presentations that are unreadable, videos that were boring or unwatchable, color combinations that are painful, type so small as to be unreadable or over a photo so crucial information is lost. How does that happen? Because someone bought cheap talent or they place NO importance on new people getting the message. The fact that those things create lasting impressions until the day they are burned or landfilled doesn't matter. J.G. sounds like he would like to have Arnold or Pataki talking about Torvec, but he thinks that is impossible. Instead he's in court with worthless 'execs' in a tug of war over money that could have refined the DARPA effort or spread the word about Torvec tech to the public.
Hey, I don't know what's going on behind closed doors, I have to judge what tidbits I see on this board, the Torvec website and what I can gather from the blizzard meetings once a year. I don't know how to get a piece of auto tech produced, I don't know how to shape those contracts. All I can do is evalute the face the 'sales' team presents to the public... I mean stockholders. I don't consider the pathetic reports on channel 8 or the attacks in the Rochester Business Journal to be 'Marketing' to the public. If anything the efforts at public education about all things Torvec, could be considered counterproductive. This is getting old. I'm even starting to bore me, going over the same old issues. Maybe I'm making it worce by venting and getting the wrong people more defensive and more dug in. If THAT's the case, I'm sorry. Not trying to mock anyone, just trying to make a case for another view on how to position and market Torvec. The tech is exciting, the possibilities are great, but I think the drumbeating could be better and sooner or later either the low profile pays off or it becomes time to go HIGH profile. I want the company to work and I'm hoping that there is a Torvec product in school buses everywhere very soon. In the meantime I think it would help everyone involved if more people were aware of the company and bid the stock up to the price it would have, if more people than read THIS board, knew about what Torvec is. They will NEVER know going by whatever marketing plan is in effect. I just hope that the way they find out about Torvec ISN'T because of some kind of idiotic court action.
Torotrak uses two cones that come together, they spin in a viscious fluid that is suppossed to lubricate as well as create a gripping surface for the cones. They have a nice marketing campaign, but their system is about as efficient as a slipping clutch. They've burned through a LOT more money than Torvec has and still can't get their trans to work on large, powerful things. I guess at it's current price some would consider it a good buy. Seems like THAT company doesn't have near the potential of Torvec, but I could be wrong. The problem is even someone who isn't an engineer can see the kind of heat generated by pressing a really fast cone against another. But like I said, I could be wrong and am happy to be updated on the engineering side. Marketing, promotion, salesmanship, barter, trades, proving profit, those are different issues.
What interest would Toyota have? How many MILLIONS did Toyota pay for the old version of the Torsen? Of course they would be interested in a lighter, less complicated, cheaper to make version. The only question is why a company like, oh let's say NISSAN, isn't turning metal on the iso-torque right now. If it were an open license someone would be making the iso-torque today.
I'm very surprised that Torvec was able to get a patent on a design that uses many principles from the Torsen, but the fact of the matter is they did and they have it. I'd love to know why Toyota isn't talking seriously with them as a way of reducing their costs on their Torsens. Maybe as the soon to be largest car company in the world, they can afford to spend more to make their non-slip diff. But if you are a competitor of Toyota wouldn't a Z car with twin iso-torques be an interesting model to have?
Ghosn is amazing. I don't think many people thought he could turn aroung Nissan like he did. Unlike GM he didn't try and do it with frantic commercials and pleas with suppliers to use less expensive metal, in fact less metal altogether. I saw the Chevy PT clone, the HHR on Monroe Ave. today. What a homely car/truck thing. Tiny and clunky at the same time. I don't know how the price compares to the Scion box or the Honda Element, but if they sell their expected quota of these things, I'll be stunned.
I hope the latest Torvec update has the effect they want. Maybe this is news for someone, but teaching a few who weren't paying attention seems like effort misdirected. Wouldn't a wider airing of the Jeep vs FTV do more to boost the stock and shore up confidence in the company? I'm sure if more people knew about Torvec the stock would move upward. If it ever got to 9 again, the same critics who complain about JG would marvel at his adroit marketing skills.
Yes, it is a great way to set up a company and move from blueprints to working preproduction hardware, but some showmanship/marketing like the DodgeRam truck doing an economy run, touting the better mileage, the potential for biofuel, would probably do a LOT more for Torvec right now. If it towed the FTV and also demoed THAT, even better. IF every full sized truck in the US used a Torvec IVT tranny today, what would that do for dependence on foreign oil?
Each day is a golden marketing moment for everything Torvec has. A marketing person would know what 'hooks' to provide for the media to get this company into a newscycle. It does take skillful prepackaging and effort to get the word out. Sad to say that doesn't seem to be on Torvec's radar. It's ALL backroom negotiations with them. I really hope that works out, just seems a shame in this time of national emergency over oil that technology that would make a big difference is sitting on the shelf. Can the idea that actually promoting the working prototypes might do more to get an OEM to use the Torvec tech, than the game of being shuffled from one executive to another has done? If the stock was at getting wide exposure and the hardware was getting followup stories in the national media, could that really be a WORSE idea than the present course? I think the engineering and testing for Torvec is topnotch, I wish the marketing/promotion effort was of equal quality.
Maybe I'm wrong, I hope so and I will be happy to admit I was totally offbase if a deal comes through. Maybe for some unknown reason the update had to be the type it was. I guess the recent legal dustup requires a certain amount of attention. It's funny that when a commissioned salesman doesn't perform, he's out the door without a whimper. I wish the world worked the same way for auto executives with puffed up resumes. If Fain and company were just salesmen, which is ALL they are, no one would have spent a day talking about their lack of performance.
Meanwhile the Jeep video was compelling. I hope more people see it and I hope it just isn't stockholders who manage to find the site and watch it. Now if someone could do the same sort of thing with a Hummer in the mud or snow, spectacular. When the puddles get a skim coat of ice it might be interesting to take on a snowmobile that moves at the same speed and see if it can go the same places, over curbs, etc.
If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there, does it make a sound? If a company has a super product and no one knows about it, does it matter?
Joke of the day. Hey, since my ruminations seem to cheer JG up, I came up with one this morning that ought to give him a chuckle.
Torvec has a running Tahoe, correct? The H3 Hummer is basically a rebodied Chevy Suburban. Suburban and Tahoe relatively close in size, design, correct? The IVT with gear pack is modular and can be utilized by a wide variety of cars/trucks.
I noticed the NEW Hummer building on Winton yesterday. Gee, those guys must be thrilled with the DAILY wall to wall coverage of spiking gas prices. Would they be motivated to do something with one of their salesman demos? Would their dealership benifit by a Hummer that suddenly became the most fuel efficient in the world? Now imagine if Torvec could announce to the media that IT had a drivable SUV HUMMER, even if it was basically a Suburban/Tahoe and not really the military spec Hummer, that instantly got better mileage. Pretty funny, right?
Here's another one while I've got you. The operating theory with Torvec seems to have been, 'we don't want to embarass potential clients, because then they would go out of their way to NOT buy our tech.' Reasonable. Makes sense to a point, but wouldn't Dodge be a self cancelling exception to this idea since they bailed on the Ram? So why not show the 'investing' public how the Torvec Dodge compares to the DaimlerChrysler Dodge?
When I was a kid Bendix Brakes used to test the upcoming car and truck models on a stretch of mountain near Jennerstown, PA. I was sort of like a kid who wants to fly living near an Air Force base in the sense that every once in a while I'd catch a glimse of the upcoming new Ford model months before the general public saw it. Unfortunely it always had a little fabric type disquise so I couldn't be sure exactly what model or company the mule belonged to, till I saw the public model later. Point is, and here's the part that JG will enjoy, Torvec could do the same thing if they don't want to offend a particular OEM. Take off the grill, paint it flat black and cover it with fabric, cardboard and fiberglass. Weigh it on a trucker's scale in front of news cameras and then prove that it can get 5%, 10%, 38% better mileage. Now that's funny.
I'm being silly. I understand that what we have here is another Lockeed 'skunkworks'. Deep cover, Area 51, Black operation. Only the guys who have been proping up 50's tranny engineering should know about how cool the IVT is. After all they might build the FTV someday. Oh, wait a minute, we've crossed those guys off the list right? Detroit is stupid or German owners are, something like that. The Chinese are the real deal. I hope so. Unless hiring an idiot who doesn't know how to talk in a business meeting, screwed the deal. Sounds like JG learned something I found out a long time ago, the resumes of a lot of 'important' people are a waste of paper. Shame on the speaker for blurting out something that embarassing and shame on Torvec for not vetting the guy, the organization better before bringing them onboard. Ultimately though, how important could it be? Most business people I've met would cut a deal with the devil for the millions, I mean billions, of dollars that are at stake.
So there you go. I hope this brightens someones morning. I have to pack, I'm scheduled for a meeting in California next week. "Hasta LaVista, baby".
Nice attitude. Tell Artguy to set up this and that if he is so smart. HEY, it's not MY company, I just own too many shares.
So, I'M in charge of promotion? Excellent, since unlike JG, I HAVE done promotional campaigns for big companies that actually make and sell stuff. How binding is a verbal contract? If I show up at Torvec tomorrow will they have ANY funds set aside for promotion? Let's figure out a payscale that I would be happy to defer for 6 months. If I could not attract enough NEW investors to double the present price, Torvec can keep their non-existent funds.
JG is ready with the putdown, I wish he was as good with results instead of excuses. Arnold is impossible? How will you know if you never try? He does have a couple of Hummers, he DID convert at least one for PR purposes, and he loves to showboat. I'll agree with JG on one thing. Arnold and everyone else won't pay attention to FTV if they never see it. So, so far the 'insider' plan is working well. Outside of a few 3 minute shots on local TV, in the afternoon, no one knows the revolution is here. If Arnold is too hard, how about the Sage Rutty car show? September 11th at the Mendon Fire hall. Hundreds of cars, thousands of people. Loop the video and double your awareness factor.
Hey, I'm just kidding, JG. You guys are doing great... with the engineering. As far as the marketing, news and internal structure, maybe not so well.
I did enjoy the UPS smackdown. Very Clintonian sidestep to the fact that Eaton is working on a prototype with FedEx. Is that not true? Maybe I'm wrong. Sometimes it happens. I actually sold 130 shares of Apple to buy more Torvec stock. The iPod had been out for a year and Apple could not get above 25. Then I sell and ONE analysis suddenly gets excited about iPod and it goes to 75 and splits. Meanwhile Torvec falls from 9 to 2. So, sometimes I make a mistake, but I admit it. Do you guys EVER do that or is everything rationlized to the upside? I understand being defendsive in your position. A lot of misleading things have been thrown your way. I don't know you, I don't know what is happening behind the scenes, but you don't know me either. I've been entrusted by companies a lot bigger than Torvec to present their products to the world. Successfully. Who's doing that for Torvec, you? Maybe I have some marketing lessons to learn from Torvec, I'll watch and see. I appreciate the chance to learn something from people who are really good at what they do.
BTW, just let me return to regenerative braking for a second. I know UPS isn't working with anyone on energy storage. It's just that since FedEx IS working on a prototype with Eaton, they seemed like a logical alternative. I know how they value efficiency. Did you know the Japanese study them for effective methods? That the drivers leave the truck a certain way to put them one step closer to the address? And so what if Eaton wasn't working with anyone? What possible effect does that have on Torvec? Remember how excited Keith was about the EPA efforts in that area and how cool it will be when Torvec pumps are used instead of Eaton's earthmovers? Now Torvec can't be bothered because I mentioned UPS?
But seriously, is the deal that if I get Arnold to return a call, I'm director of marketing for Torvec? Cause if THAT'S the case, I double dare you.
I think it is great that the brothers are doing this. A lot of people in their position would not. My questions and concerns still stand and ironically are reinforced by the effect of having an interview. Stock from 1.9 to 2.7.
Imagine what effect dragging a Jeep out of the mud with the FTV would have if it were a news bit for TV stations. How about calling the discovery channel? They have a lot of time to fill and sooner or later people are going to finally get enough of the Tuttles and their goofy choppers.
A logical question for whoever is in charge of presenting Torvec images to the world. Would anyone go to an interview with clothes they slept in, unshaved, unshowered, and with muddy shoes? Of course not. Then why show videos that are obviously homemade? Jerky pans, clumsy focus and apparently little if any editing. Why would you show the FTV struggling to climb a pile of logs, then sliding backward as someone yells in frustration? Those moments belong on what the pros called the 'cutting room floor'. Today anyone with professional broadcast experience would put them in their desktop trash bin. My point is that this town has MANY people with Broadcast video experience. NOT wedding shooters, NOT someone who bought a new camcorder, NOT a relative who knows how most of the buttons work, but Professionals who have the gear and more importantly the experience to know what to shoot, how to shoot it and WHAT to edit to make compelling video. The people I know could probably be hired for a couple of thousand dollars for a one day shoot. Maybe even expenses and stock, although these days that would take more shares than two months ago.
Everyone thinks they know how to direct cause they have seen a lot of movies. Guess what, it's a whole nother skill set. Something very few engineers have. How long is 3 seconds? Most people think that is a very short period of time. It's really kind of long when you are trying to fill the screen with animation or move to another shot or make a transition to another scene. The viewing public is conditioned to shorter and denser visual hits today. You have to know what you are doing to get their attention, hold it and get your point across. The slightest rough edge, the slightest mistake in camera operation or sound or editing shows up and maybe the public can't tell you exactly what's goofy about the footage, but they instinctively know it. It's like you are surrounded by chefs and you keep eating hot dogs. The undercover quality of Torvec videos was cute for the first year or two, but now it just looks inept. I have to think a potential buyer would be thinking, 'these guys can't shoot a video, why would I trust their judgement about vital tech for my company'?
Image matters. Attention to detail matters. It can elevate or kill whatever follows. Too many people are too close to their baby at Torvec. Someone with the proven skills, and I'm NOT talking about an overpriced agency, just a good shooter, editor,director, and art director, could make the videos and print material that would make the proposals be taken more seriously. It would also attract more interest from people outside the inner sanctums of the auto industry.
I'm not too confident anyone at Torvec understands this concern. It took how long to get a sort of professional website up? I say sort of because of the pace of updating and the ease of calling up video. It could be considered a little thing, but so is a little toliet paper on your shoe. Companies spend fortunes on image and promotion, not because it's fun, it's hard work, not because it's easy, but because done right, it works. Why does Coke continue to spend millions every year to promote their product? Why are they very, very serious about continually trying to find the best promotional presenters they can? Everyone knows who they are and what their product is.
Torvec is about 7 miles from R.I.T.'s industrial design school. Could someone call an adjunct professor there and get their class to go to Pittsford to look at the FTV? Better yet call the school till you get the right person and load up the FTV on a flatbed (why isn't this thing certified for the highway yet) and do the water bottle, curb climing demo in their parking lot. Then have a class or two design some alternative trucks. I don't care if there is no intention of making the cool, professional level, FREE, designs. All I care about is the excitement ONE day and a couple of phone calls would create for FREE. Then the students and/or adjunct professor send the designs to competitions, magazines, etc. Every time they show their portfolio to someone for YEARS afterward, Torvec is discussed, FOR FREE.
Movies aren't shot in real time even if they look that way and style involves a lot more than color matched clothes. I really, really wish the right people at Torvec would realize the need for working with PRODUCTION people with skill sets they DON'T have. And for goodness sake hold off on anymore hyped resumes from auto EXECS with more BS than results. I've seen way too many executives who couldn't produce squat on their own, but are very skilled at taking credit for underlings work and for keeping their job. They often excell at taking the actual producers name off the project, if it turns out well, and pointing to someone else if they don't do THEIR job. Titles mean nothing in the real world, only results matter. The problem is who is in the company that would understand this issue or who could even know who to select and trust to produce the best visuals with a lean budget? No one, judging by the efforts so far.
Maybe I'm deluded and this is just a rant from a frustrated artist, but if I'm right will anyone admit it? Will anyone consider my questions. I guess we will see. This does NOT require a six figure campaign with one of the few agencies left in town, it could get a LOT better with a tiny step forward. Like having the next video shot by someone who actually was paid by a company the size of Kodak to make their product look good.
Some random questions and guesses at the answers.
1. Why isn't something mentioned about the deicing tech? If no info can be released because of Nissan's involvement, say so. Something like problems being worked on, moving toward prototype, etc. otherwise investors and potential investors might think it's another case of frozen tech so to speak.
2. Eaton is spending a LOT of money to get their energy storage via braking device to work on FedEx trucks. We were told that Torvec has a much better answer for this tech by using their pumps. This is a gigantic market that seems to not have the 'not invented here' stupidity of auto manufacturers. The current spike in fuel is going to make them even more inclined to seriously look at not quite there yet tech. What efforts have been made for using the pumps in this area? We keep hearing about the Army and School buses, but that is quickly followed by we can't spare the men and some parts aren't ready yet. WHAT? Hire another engineer and get someone to call UPS. The lack of parts sure wasn't a problem when it came time to fix the pumps on the FTV. This is much easier to sell than tooling up for a truck that doesn't use roads. Maybe consider a partnership with someone like a brake company? Is Torvec is like an A.D.H.D. company, bouncing around from one thing to another because they don't have a clear prototype to market plan or is it because they are trying TOO hard to get a limited number of things done as cheaply as possible? At some point and I think a lot of people think we are past it, the focus must start to shift from testing to perfection to P.R. and marketing. Imagine the money that would become available if Torvec could anounce that THEY are working on a prototype with FedEx instead of Eaton. Somehow the "bags" aren't a roadblock for Eaton and FedEx.
3. Does the IVT work? We know it is quite compared to the competition and we know it doesn't have the leakage or blowby issues of some pumps, it uses fewer parts and many interchangable parts, lighter, gearpacks, etc., but is it ANOTHER case of not enough money for more than one or two? Forget 38% improvement, if it can really get 10% improvement, my son could sell it. He may not be waiting for Ford to buy it or some company in China, he might do something crazy like get a partner and start making the thing. It's cheap and simple right?. As he tours the country stopping at every TV station in every city from coast to coast, he would mention how much less it cost him to get there than all the NON Torvec trucks like his. If the best efficiency for the IVT is around town up to 35MPH, why isn't there a heavy duty version on a DELIVERY truck? Would a more fuel efficient DELIVERY truck or school bus make the news? It supposidly worked on a Dodge Ram over a year ago. Now it has gear packs so where is a DELIVERY truck version? My son and I aren't engineers, we just understand the logic to this question and are puzzled as to why Torvec is dead in the water, or seems to be, on a crying need like this.
4. The FTV is great but who knows about it? Do the engineers at Torvec actually think the public goes to their site and watches the nonprofessional videos? Oh, that's right Torvec can't really tell anyone about it because they are in deep negotiations with car companies and they don't want to scare them off by bragging or something like that. Listen that was one thing when you were still banging the first few prototypes around, it's getting old. I would suggest less gloating about the jeep stuck in the mud on a semiprivate website that not even all 3,000 stockholders go to and maybe something PUBLIC. Put up $10,000 to any stock Jeep that can keep up with the FTV over a couple of laps in the mud. Call the TV stations, show the gold eagle coins and rip the tarp off the FTV and show the world. At the end, after the FTV pulls the Jeep out of the mud, announce the Torvec economy challenge of stock Dodge vs Torvec Dodge and double the money. Would things start to actually happen if the world saw that? Would that be a news story many stations would cover? Would, and I know this is crazy, Popular Mechanix do another story on Torvec? Their last one was something like 1977. Which reminds me-
5. How come no one wants to buy the better, cheaper Torsen? Do the bean counters in EVERY car company really like paying more for a slightly more complicated version from Toyota? If VW has to build their cars in Mexico because of price issues, what's their problem with saving a few bucks on 4motion? Another case of not enough salesmen, not enough money, too distracting?
Maybe this is an idea, QUIT talking to the people you are talking to. They seem to be impotent jerks who will maybe take a call, but will never buy your product. How about the growing movement of altervatives to Detroit that are popping up? Bio fuel, guys who convert hybrids to all electric, computer guys who are trying new thinking like the guy who sold Paypal and now he is building his own private rocket company. Paul Allen is funding a new design private jet. Some people have the money and the spirit to go against Detroit. IF they are in China great, but does Torvec ALWAYS have to put all eggs in one basket at at time? Did anyone call Punoz in Georgia? Here's a guy who made a car with adhesive instead of welds, honeycomb instead of sheetsteel and his race cars beat the best that Detroit can throw at him.
Ok, I'm ranting but boy am I sick of seeing things like the FTV stomp the Jeep after it turns around within it's length AND NO ONE KNOWS ABOUT IT. What's the point of going through snow drifts that stop a Hummer if NO one sees it? Only a bunch of engineers would have a truck that gets noticably better fuel mileage at a time when fuel IS AT AN ALL TIME HIGH, and not be able to figure out a way to demonstrate that to the world. It's called an economy run, you know where the competitor runs out of fuel and you keep going?
I'm starting to feel like that guy in the Warner Brother's cartoon with the Al Jolson singing frog that only performed for him. Look some of the Torvec stuff doesn't work, some of it doesn't work as well as they would like, some works fine, and some works great, but if they are going to stick with this theory that no company will buy anything if they show it off to the world, I'm afraid it will be death by committee. At some point why not go big and go public, the behind the scenes stuff hasn't amounted to one sale, instead everyone is pointing fingers over who deserved to get paid for NOTHING. Give me a Torvec IVT with gear pack that will fit into Arnold's Hummer and I'll get more public interest in Torvec than all the goofy executives they've gone thru. As gov. of CA, he IS a little concerned about his SUV image. He made a public notice out of the fact that he converted his FLEET of Hummers to run on Propane. I'd bet $100 none of the 'industry' executives ever thought of the possibility of even propossing an idea like that. Instead they couldn't find a garage for the FTV for two months. Stupid. Anyone want to bet that there are 12 guys in the garages and car clubs around Rochester who could have done a better job of promoting Torvec tech than the whole company did last year?
Hey it's a public forum and I'm frustrated. I know I have patience issues along with my spelling problems, but this was suppossed to be the year something happened. Last meeting it was, 'now the IVT is real, it's built and it works'. Now in 5 months what will the excuse be? Not enough people to do everything?
Stock went to 3. Imagine where it would go if the company had the PR guy from the 'Look at us, we use a Mac to make a VW drive around a parking lot' company.
As I said in post 2440, I have serious doubts about 'the world's FIRST autonomus(sp) VW'.
a. It's driving around a FLAT parking lot.
b. What's in the trashcans? Beacons?
c. What are the people doing in the chase truck that never gets very far behind the 100 yard journey.
d. Who is the guy who keeps about 10 feet away from the 'world's first'?
That said, they ARE in and Torvec isn't. I love Macs but sending a VW on an unkown 750 mile cross country trip could be more than even OSX can handle.
If THIS was the deciding factor, seems like maybe the software guys at Motron or whatever it was, didn't make their case.
Theses are the meaningless debates one has when the company who SHOULD be developing start assist tech for large trucks doesn't have the money to hire engineers to put on the problem. EVEN though there is at least ONE guy at Torvec who would love to solve THAT problem. Eaton would be making money TODAY if they had Torvec's pump instead of their high pressure, used to be in an earthmover, pump. I can't mock them TOO much, they are in a deal with FedEx right NOW.
I'm not encouraging A.D.D. at Torvec, I guess they can't work on more than 3 things at once. I'm ranting and more than a little confused when a hacker company throws a Mac into a Tourage and THEY GET IN THE COMPETITION. Engineers don't do P.R., but isn't there someone in that company that does? I guess we will see sometime this year.
Here is the actual site. Click on the Tourage(sp) photo and it will take you to another page with a strange video of the VW going about a 100 yards around a parking lot course with 2 trashbarrels with GPS?, while it is closely followed by a chase truck.
I remember the days of interface design where you had a button or an underlined word to go to a link, not hidden words or tapping on photos.
http://team.gobanzai.com/home.html
THAT'S the problem, they should have used a MAC. Check out the link about DARPA. Interesting in that the off-the-shelf miniSUV uses GPS 'checkpoints' to navigate. I thought the course was a secret till start time? I guess as long as there aren't any 8" rocks in front of it, all should go well for them.
http://www.powerpage.org/cgi-bin/WebObjects/powerpage.woa/wa/story?newsID=14767
Coming up on the anniversary of the big rally for Torvec. I'm not a brillant manager/CEO type, but if I were in Torvec management or on the board, I'd do something to tout some aspect of this company. It's one thing to be misleading potential investors by promising vaporware or bogus deals, it's another to showcase what you have. I want to believe there are actual agreements with actual companies that are holding them back. I DO think enough correspondence has happened to warrant that mindset, but I also have a growing doubt about the ability of engineers to be competent salesmen.
The new management touts a good resume, but I've seen a ton of management types who can barely function when given a real problem. We will see if Torvec's faith in them was justified. Just once I'd like to see the real deal in management in a company that I have money in, besides Steve Jobs or Jack Welsh. So many empty suits in business who do nothing or ruin a company and still come out smelling like a rose. I really hope that's not the deal here.
The information gap is growing larger for Torvec because of how they set up Tahoe. Results or an explanation via some kind of UPDATE is something they owe stockholders. Nothing I say will prompt that, but the stock dropping to 2 might wake someone up in whatever marketing department they have at Torvec.
SEC? Was that satire? Sometimes it's hard to tell on this board. I certainly understand the rising frustration with the lack of deals, sales or even new updates from this company, but if the SEC is going to start investigating companies that underperform I wish they would start with EDS.
Class action? For what? The last update was on the 15th of this month and that was to highlight the significant progress in making the FTV an artifically intelligent truck.
If you want to complain about the marketing results, you will have a LOT of company. Why, who knows? Not enough people, too many management types who talk better than they walk, too much focus on making stuff, tweaking stuff instead of promoting what works. Whatever the reason, we do agree that there ought to be a ban on position papers and an uninstall of powerpoint on every computer at Torvec.
There's GOT to be a salesman somewhere in this town who can sell a proven, value added, part like the improved, cheaper, Torsen. I wouldn't be surprised if the problem is not orders, but someone to make the thing. Or the wrong person trying to sell it.
It's a fair shot to say that perhaps engineers aren't the best people to be selling their babies, but that's what the reshuffling was suppossed to be about. Seems like they mean it, seems like the Dodge and the FTV actually work, seems like the patents are in order, there also seems to be a growing panic on this board that wants to wipe all that aside.
Explain exactly how Torvec is like Enron. Enron had nothing but a ponzi scheme of contract shuffling, Torvec has tested and patented technology. Throwing names like Enron around smells like something also, and it has nothing to do with valid criticism, but a lot to do with impatience. Here's an idea, SELL, take a loss or not and find another HOT company. Pfizer must have a new drug about to be released, Apple is going to roll out new 3D focused machines and maybe a Beatle branded iPod. Go for it.
You are correct. I'm a believer in the tech, more skeptical about the sales. The Torsen cured a problem, the IVT replaces both conventional trannys and Frankenstien experiments like the Audi CVT. A LOT more resistence, I'm guessing. You would think anything that could deliver more than 1 or 2 MPG would be big news. Maybe it will be in the near future. I sure hope so.
Sometimes you have to wonder how anything gets done in this world. Deming showed them the way and apparently someone thinks quality is important because a LOT of companies make a big deal out of the Baldridge award, but the reality is a lot closer to 'car of the year', which is just a paid ad.
We have the best tech or should have, but then you hear what the head of GM says about how they are going to get back in the race and it just makes you shake your head. Management seems to think advertising will put them back in the black. Unions don't seem to understand that they need to change the whole dynamic of worker management at GM or they won't have their $27 an hour jobs. I just hope the Chinese build better cars than the sailboats they built a few years ago. A friend of mine sails and sold boats. He said the Chinese got everything backwards. Ropes made of nylon that you want to stretch like an anchor rope were in the rigging and the dacron ropes were on the anchor. Wrong wood on the deck, etc. Looked good though.
Easy to be a critic, BUT sometimes critics are right and they have the advantage of a fresh set of eyes. I'm certainly hoping that Torvec is working the right people toward a deal, that agreements are forming, that numbers are being bounced around. As has often been said the time is right, the engineering seems right, the costs appear to be doable, etc. Contacts seem to be happening, so what else do I want? If all this is going on good, I'll bid my time and keep hope alive.
There is something else that really ought to be addressed though. How many companies, managers and bosses look for trouble? How many WANT to hear bad news? How many LISTEN? I'm afraid the tendency is to rationalize, to cover up, to ignore, to trust the WRONG people. A company like Torvec has been in a bunker from day one. Your ideas are stupid, you can't do that, it costs too much money, people will never buy it, etc. They hung in there and proved most of their critics wrong and they did it THEIR way. They have much to be proud of, but can they go on the offense? Think of their situation, it must be SO tempting to want to do the easiest deal right now, to want to make the connection that had time invested in, pay off. The problem is you have a changing cast of people who claim to be the ones to make things happen at OEMs. They play at implementing new tech, but in the case of Chrysler talking to anyone but the new, senior German owners and management is a waste of time. I think that is what killed the Dodge deal. Can you imagine selling a German engineering they didn't have a part in? Can you imagine getting a German to change their mind? Don't start, my wife's family and my mother's family go straight back to Bavaria. Point is, established OEMs are giddy that they can design and build a car in less than two years. They are quickly going the way of US steel. Will we still have anything resembling GM or Ford in 15 years? Will they even be in business?
On the other hand doing a deal with the Chinese and NOT being ripped off is a pretty good trick, but at least they seem more open to truely new tech. I'm guessing Torvec thought the same thing about Korea though.
Hang on, if you are still with me I'm about to make my original point. Work the phones and backroom deals, but it's time to open up the company a bit. The website was a start, now go to the other media. Strengthen your hand, put fence sitters on notice, get some new players, shake the cage. I UNDERSTAND the whole, 'we don't want to scare OEMs, we WANT them to rebrand, we WANT them to take credit for inventing etc., but how many times has that NOT worked in the past? I think there is a real concern that all that does is let some midmanagement or even upper management pretend like they are really doing something by LOOKING at new tech, when in reality it's all they can do to put a new bumper on last year's model.
Torvec, consider this. Keeping it quiet does NOT work. You could have an entire issue of Popular Mechanics devoted to you and a year from now no one would remember. You would however get a BIG infusion of money. Then you could hire some MORE people and PUT the PUMP on a big delivery van or school bus AND MAKE THE ACCUMULATOR TECHNOLOGY not only work, but make millions of dollars. Saying the 'bags' aren't ready is NOT a reason. Liablility concerns are, not enough money to make the parts is, not enough in house engineers to devote to it is, but here's a critic's observation, expecting GM or Dodge to somehow fund it is a long, long shot.
My increasing frustration is probably a really good thing. I'm a guy who left money on the table with pfizer and I actually got tired of holding Apple a year after the iPod was selling like crazy. I took a loss on Apple to buy more Torvec. Apparently that was the signal moronic analyists were waiting for because Apple went nuts immediately after that. I'm so stupid I'd do something crazy like putting the Dodge Ram on a track against every other SUV and truck I could beg borrow or steal and send the tape of it lapping everyone to every news outlet on the planet and I'd end it with a shot of the same truck with a regular tranny beside it and the MPG numbers under both with "The difference is TORVEC" under that, with the website and phone number. Wild stuff, eh?
Thanks for that link. It reminds me that at some point and I think we are at or very close to the point where it doesn't matter about the engineering any more. Some companies may or may not have workable, bankable technology. John Deere, Eaton, EPA or that friction/nonfrinction English company. Maybe Torvec is way better than anything out there, more efficient, lighter, cheaper, etc., does it matter? If it can't be sold in kit form or as part of some OEM product, it is just another Sterling engine kind of deal.
I think it IS great engineering and I think it has done an amazing job of producing real world results in a very short time with relatively little money. Something much larger, better funded companies could NOT do because of layered management, buyin, checkoffs, etc. Great, now what? It's TIME for all the big resume types to set up and do their part. MARKET Torvec, sell Torvec. If there were EVER a perfect storm of conditions to capitalize on this engineering, NOW is that time. Demand is there, OEMs need this now, the public is buying more and more into these technologies everyday and government officials are requiring exactly this kind of tech in every other law they pass.
Look, if semi-kit car companies like Panoz or whatever his name is in Georgia can build a multimodel car line and if Saleen can build a Ferrari beating sportscar, somebody, somewhere can build an FTV or a diesel car/truck that shames any OEM. Maybe nothing will happen because there is a business plan that requires an OEM royality deal, maybe the tech is still too raw for production, I don't know. Seems to me though that there are enough HIGHLY paid MBA types involved at Torvec now to move way beyond where Torvec has been. It's one thing for gearheads to R&D and come up short on the presentation or marketing side, it's an entirely different thing for marketing and business people to fall short while they are getting a LOT of money. Time to step up.
At this point I don't even care if they can't say ANYTHING about the engineering, DO SOMETHING. Tout the company, show the equipement, brag about the history, dare to be great. I'm fast getting to the point where I'm starting to think that if I were marketing a company this way, I would be fired or at least having some rude board meetings. Maybe good things are being spell checked right now, but if these new corporate types think announcing DARPA is marketing, they don't deserve their payscale.
I'm not usually this cranky, but I am less than impressed by the public positioning of this company since they announced the Tahoe experiment. It's laudable to avoid hype and overselling, but I have to honestly say that there seems to be more enthusiasim OUTSIDE this company about their hardware/software/ideas than inside. Stockholder tours, mileage challenges, reporter test drives, rescue stunts, something ought to be in the works, BESIDES confidental talks with OEMs. Or not. What do I know?
Look, the test for the engineering is simple, it works or it doesn't. I think the test ought to be required for the suits who tout their resume to get involved with Torvec. DO SOMETHING. The non disclosure thing is wearing thin. 3 months since the stockholders meeting may not be enough time to finalize a major deal, but it IS enough time to announce a plan, an update, a deadline.
Maybe cabin fever will go away next week when I can walk outside without a coat. I know it would go away with some NEWs from our favorite site.
Good points, but. In house engineering has had what motivation to innovate? Take Ford for example. Their innovation was to use an aluminum piston in their tranny instead of a piece of steel. How much did that save Ford? How much did it cost the consumer? Maybe 50 cents for Ford, $1,200 for someone dumb enough to repair a Tauras. Don't ask me how I know this. Ask any Addeco shop, it's a sick joke in the industry. You would think Ford would care about the memory of duped buyers and the bad word of mouth. Maybe the 6 speed auto they spent billions on has the needed steel part. Who cares? I don't, I'll NEVER touch a Ford again. GM isn't much better. Did you know the new Malibus aren't grounded properly and a current leaks through the front wheel bearings. They fail out of warrenty and the buyer is now the owner of a 2 year old car that needs major repair. This was talked about on the radio car show out of Buffalo recently.
My long winded point is that innovation may be talked about at OEMs, but they sure have a poor track record of following through. Any retooling is apparently fought tooth and nail and the lengths the bean counters will go to sell us crap is apparently limitless. Hey, your Ford SUV tends to rollover, deflate the tires. Innovation, that reminds me of the GM 'diesels' of the 70's. Remember them?
Two things will move OEMs to actually use new tech, a really big backlog of $30,000 vehicles and state or federal laws with hefty fines for not obeying said laws. Both are happening. I think they will use every stunt they can. Really big batteries and electric motor/starters, shutoff at lights, dual fuel, maybe even... diesel cars. Which reminds me of a black Ford diesel Escort miniwagon I test drove years ago. The salesman gave me a true look of pity, and he was right.
Will I live to see the FTV or IVT or ICE on the cover of car magazines, or any magazine? I am starting to wonder. All of the above are reasons why I'm looking at the 'outsiders', not domestic car companies. I'm sure Detroit still has their execs driving carefully maintained by the factory iron. I think the combination of living high on the domestic market for a long time and the pressure of dealing with the unions is leaving them wide open for more loss of market share. Maybe they will radically rethink, but more likely they will just move more plants offshore and generally downsize. Looking way to much like the old steel industry.
Enough of this, what do I know? Not only did I actually buy a Kcar once, I've owned more than one Ford.
Iso-Torque seemed like a reach to me at first. Kind of like trying to relive a past hit, but I like it in spite of big, bad Toyota owning the original.
First it is cheaper and lighter and that makes it better engineered in my book. So it's a great traction device, what good is that for a lot of cars? Look around, who thought SO many options like power windows, door locks and AC would be standard. Competition and the buyers demand it. Better handling, SAFETY, engineering are the next thing. Every goofy rain sensing option is out there some industry driven, some government agency driven. Offering Iso-torque would be a great way for an up and coming OEM or even lower priced models to step up into higher priced, more profit territory. Copying Mercedes grilles can only take you so far. Maybe the question is who will actually turn metal to make the darn things. Someone call Hillary, a plant here could make them and staff with some of the 200,000 new jobs she was going to bring to upstate.
Otto has to be more useful writing letters to OEMs than he was at trying to be Lee Iaccoca. Maybe it's more staffing by crisis, but for now I'll take the view that it's putting people in positions they are better suited for. Stability and protected turf is often overrated. Accountability for performance or at least that tone is a better theme. This is a small company and they HAVE to work together as a team. If they really respect each other, they will work not just for themselves, but also not to let the team down. In some ways people can take shots at this company. I might be wrong, but I've worked for far worse. They HAVE a track record of achievement, which is something some higher profile competition doesn't have. They did get some things running. The testing setup has been mocked by some, but they have overengineered a lot of it because a LOT of people really want them to fail. How many years and millions of dollars have the EPA spent on THEIR diesel experiments?
This is all moot given the politics of oil. China's demand smashes the old theories. SUVs stacking up for companies like GM and Ford are a problem RIGHT NOW. New standards 2 years away. All this seems to tell me, even a screwed up, revolving chairs, prototypes only, company like Torvec is in a prime position to change things. The status quo will destroy Ford and GM. On the other hand I actually used to believe Vice Presidents of major corporations had to be really sharp to rise to that level, then I met one. It's certainly an interesting time for car OEMs and with more concerns than I would like to have, I'm going to hang on to my meager share of Torvec and see if the world changes bigtime in the autotech sector. I remember the FIRST Subarus that were imported over thirty years ago. If you would have told me someday I'd own 2 of them, I would have thought you were nuts.
What a poker game. Are the cards there? Every time I doubt Torvec, I remember the actual, running achievements. Torsen and working FTV. I tend to believe the IVT is also the real deal. That's a wonderful thing, but a lot of other things often get in the way of wonderful things.
The not invented here syndrome applies to any huge staff that had a history of market control for years. They build up political partitions with power and budgets and will fight tooth and nail to protect their sphere of influence. Even if several lower level engineers who are still focused on engineering rather than their position WANT the IVT tech for say, Chrysler, there might be ONE senior German director with ties to the AUDI snowmobile CVT who will reject THAT idea at every turn. A very real possibility. It's nice that the Dodge runs and is a practical testbed, IF it still has an IVT in it, but somehow I don't think Chrysler is going to get it. The Germans run that show now. I thought the Gleasman's experience with VW would have countered that, but the reality seems to look like a dead end. Considering that VW sold more cars in China than Germany last year and that they build VWs in Mexico, it would not surprise me to see them slide back to the dead zone between the time of American build Rabbits and the new generation Golf.
The talk from China sure sounds ambitious, but Malcolm Bricklin is a wild card to say the least. There might be ONE Chinese engineer or manager who understands that standing out in the crowd with a cheap car or truck that delivers better mileage than the competition would be a way to sell 250,000 cars here by 2007. That part would seem to be a logical fit for their marketing side and the cheaper, simpler IVT would seem to be a fit for their production side. It really would seem to be a win win for them. Just depends on how real that company is and how reliable their business contract would be, but at this point even if they welshed on funding, I have to think the exposure would make up for it.
Barring a startup in China, what else could break through the tranny departments of 100 year old companies? The Army? You would think anything that would actually work on an armored Humvee would have a fast track to production. If Eaton can make earthmoving pumps work with pressure tanks to increase MPG for delivery vans, I know Torvec pumps could work even better. The BIG problem there is money and people to be devoted to that. I don't buy JG's idea that the 'bags' aren't there yet. Sell some stock, reorganize something, hire more people, do whatever and get the controls figured out to put the Torvec pumps and tanks on school buses, FedEx, UPS, garbage trucks and mail trucks. If it works on a Humvee, make it work on a semi and put one on the Dodge. Someone at Torvec has labeled this a distraction instead of an opportunity.
Now I'm ranting. If Nissan announced they were going to use the ICE tech on their windshields or some news ANY positive news happened, we could all stop moaning. Oil getting tighter and tighter, I used to think that would speed things up. Now I'm not so sure. There really seems to be enough deadwood in some or most companies that somehow they would rather pay huge fines and stack up SUVs and trucks that no one wants, instead of pulling all stops to look for anything that might actually work. Ford spending millions or was it Billions of dollars for a 6 speed tranny that got them what, 1 or 2 more MPG, says all you need to know about why THAT company is bleeding money.
Don't know how much THIS added to the board, but I feel a tiny bit better venting.
I AM skeptical of engineers ability to market their engineering. Hopefully that's what all the 'business/marketing' people will do. They are onboard, this is what they are suppossed to be good at, so DO it.
Having gone thru an estate that involved PA and NY, I was only trying to point out that there are wrinkles that change every year. What was a good idea one year gets upside down after a few changes of legislature at state and federal levels.
All of this would be moot if the marketing guys did their job and actually got someone, somewhere to turn a lathe on one Torvec patent.
Until there are a lot more shareholders to question his position, J.G. is going to continue to roll around the deck. Again, won't matter if I see the Dodge or Tahoe on TV with an IVT working.
I'm in the grumbling line, just way in the back at this point.
Thank goodness for this estate planning angle. For a second there I thought the FTV did drive around and that the IVT was running in the Dodge truck. Nissan probably took their windshield back and the patent office is realizing their mistake in granting those patents. None of this stuff is worth anything because some people think they can devine the PRIVATE finances of someone else. Bright and early tomorrow I'm going to sell all Torvec and take my losses like a man.
I used to think only the shorts at Raging Bull cared about me wasting my money, it's heartwarming to know they are here as well.
1.9, 9, or 4.25, I really don't care. I saw the designs, I talked to the people and I think it has real potential. I know there is competition, but even with my limited engineering skills, it's obvious that most, if not all, of them are much less efficent.
Now I have been itching to see an article on the working prototypes in Popular Science or Popular Mechanics, like they used to have for the Torsen. Even better would be an announcement from the Army that they are tooling up for IVT trannys.
Meanwhile, all you would be executors will be surprised when the reality hits you. I would not wish that job on anyone, and if you think you will skate through it, you could find you are mistaken.
If the Transrevolution IVT lights a fire under people at Torvec, GREAT. Contrary to their claim, I see a belt as a major part of their design and it sure looks similar to the offset shaft IVTs of earthmovers. If they release their Dodge results, that would be interesting. I'd like to see what kind of torque loads it can handle. I could easily be mistaken, but putting THAT in a motorcycle seems absurd.
This caught my eye on Drudge...$127 billion project called Future Combat Systems is biggest military contract in American history...
A remotely controlled FTV would be an interesting item for the Army to have. Maybe an armored FTV that could go where the Bradley can't and go a LOT faster.
I hope Dobbs is the real deal and that the Army is testing the heck out of Torvec technology. The Torsens in the Hummer should have paved the way. That ICE technology would be a nice trick for Army things. There's light at the end of this tunnel, right?
I'm the guy who asked Jim about any news reguarding accumulator applications of the Torvec pump. Keith had been quite positive in the past as to how the Torvec pump could do the work of 2, much larger, Eaton pumps.
Jim replied that the "bags" technology wasn't there yet. Not sure what he meant by that since the debate revolved around how much pressure was needed and the size of the tanks to store it. I mentioned in the question that size of tanks weren't that big of a problem on buses, garbage trucks and delivary vans. Stop and go, under 35 MPH, seemed like a good area with a good financial incentive.
The funny thing is, as I was talking to Keith's son after the meeting an engineer from Torvec came up to me and thanked me for the "good" question. He was quite interested in doing exactly what I asked. Felt there was a good solution with the Torvec pump. He pointed out that it involves more time, effort, money and people than Torvec had right now. It COULD be done, but it involves more than just hooking up a pump and some tanks. Lots of liability issues on top of just making a working and tested system.
So I don't know if Torvec can get over the tipping point and get enough income to hire all the people it needs to make more than R&D stuff happen. Given all that, I'm still long, waiting for something like Tahoe results.
I agree. I would like to see more public coverage of the FTV, but this contest has a LOT of potential pitfalls. An optimist would think that the Army wants this as a final condition for somkind of project. Maybe dreamer instead of optimist.
Where is the Tahoe?
You can either believe there is more smoke and mirrors than real engineering or you can believe that Torvec has learned a hard lesson several times. That lesson being there are major forces within EVERY automotive company that will spend a LOT of money and time to pick apart any results Torvec releases.
This is what happened with the EPA. Torvec comes out of nowhere and throws a big rock in the middle of their carefully constructed pond. The way EPA results are obtained have NOTHING to do with real world driving. Outsider tech that shows up 10 years of EPA kludged together junk that doesn't work off a testbed, had to be slammed. Otherwise some highly paid government workers would have to defend spending $60 million.
All the equipement and time is being spent to make defendable results. I think it's overly conservative, but they've been torn apart before and I think they want to announce big. Anything promising better than a mile or two per gallon for less cost better be real and they know that.
Getting tired of waiting, but expecting an aggressive, professional marketing effort when they do. I want to see cutaways in Popular Science in months not years.
Hi. New member. Used to post on the spam board under Pittsfordny. Just to add my 2 cents. Chrysler is a German company and getting a German to buy into engineering that they didn't invent and that would directly challenge their CVT effort via Audi, is next to impossible. I think they went there because of the past record with VW/Audi and the Torsen, but they should have expected a senior German engineer to come down hard on the DodgeRam IVT. I guess Ford is happy with the beltdrive contraption they use in the 500. If it works like their usual trannys, that will be a nightmare after about 20,000 miles. Japan and Korea all seem to follow Toyota which leaves GM and their billion dollar dispute with Fiat or China. I'd rather see them dealing with #1, but if it gets a working IVT in a mass produced car, I don't care who builds it, unless it's Yugo. A lot of chips on the Tahoe and you would think any significant improvement to SUV mileage would be BIG news, even outside of Rochester. I guess we will see soon.
I've been long and deep on this company since 1.9 per share, but it sure looks like make or brake time soon. Gas/oil issues, China issues, diesel issues. Something sold about school buses, whatever. The DARPA race is a risk, the best machine so far went 10 miles, but at least the FTV will get some coverage. If it breaks down or gets stuck, I'm not sure the Torvec PR people are good enough to finess that.