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Zeev - I'm holding quite a few shorts. Should I hedge some of it at the 1420-1425 level. Perhaps even starting at the 1430 level or so? Or should I just sit tight. Your thoughts are much appreciated :)
'deadbeat' 'jar' and others. I am curious. Do you actually invest in stocks? Or do you just 'cruise' the boards looking for avenues to bash homosexuals with your interpretation of the Bible?
I am beginning to accept the notion that many have PM’d me that you, jar others are simply ‘cruising’ the boards looking to ‘bash’ others with your interpretation of ‘evangelism’. Very sad if true. For in reality you are only pushing people away from God and not bringing them closer. Remember what Jesus said to His disciples. “They will know you by your love”. May this be true in our daily walk.
I am afraid what many have told me is true. That being that discussing such issues with you, jar and 1 or 2 others on this board is truly a waste of time. Good luck and God's grace with your walk with God. And oh yes - happy investing :)
I am saddened 'deadbeat' that you equate ones sexual orientation with pedophilia, murder, stealing! It shows not only an ignorance of basic science but a gross misunderstanding of God's grace and the Word of God itself. Prejudice (prejudging without understanding) is man's (and satan's) creation - not God's.
Sarai it is always dangerous to say these people are like 'x' and these people are like 'y'.
Jar and I are probably in agreement on much more than you think! I too believe that "the Bible was written by authors who were directly inspired by God". The 'trick' to the whole thing is that God always uses fallible man(kind) to bring forth His infallible message. There is a bit of a mystery to it (why not tell us more clearly??!!??). But I believe the mystery lies in the fact that if one truly wants to search and find the heart of God they will do so. If God laid everything out on a silver platter (like writing it with His own finger on a wall of stone) then it wouldn't mean as much to us. Seek and you shall find, knock and the door shall be opened. I think the truth lies in these statements somehow. Life is a search to find and live out the will of God. Thankfully the 'basics' are right there for all to see and neither the right nor the left disagree on them.
As Sam says... The only REAL issue is Jesus Christ. On this Jar and I are in total agreement. Secondly that "the entire law and the prophets" are summed up by the Law of Love.
Everything else is truly anciliary issues that only cause a few 'bumps' along the way! Luckily Jar and I share the same love of the Word of God. With that - and an open mind/heart (and a healthy dose of the Holy Spirit!). The truth will be revealed in time. The key is to keep searching for it and to stay open to it's message once it's revealed! (life IS good no! :D
"This is silly. When you become a Christian, you agree to change completely."
Jar you just won't let me leave will you! I do have to address this one before I leave! Jar! God changes our hearts first my man! If your left handed you don't suddenly become right handed! If you have blond hair and blue eyes you don't suddenly sprout brown hair and brown eyes! If you are heterosexual you don't suddenly become homosexual (and visa virsa)! Come now! Let's not mix apples and oranges my friend!
You are again confusing homosexuality with some sort of emotional or spiritual 'downfall' in the human condition! God could care less about if we are right handed or left handed, male or female, black or white, gay or straight! What He is after is perfecting His loving nature IN us (see that wonderful list in Galatians again!).
I don't mean to be rude Jar but I will get back to you concerning your last post this evening. I am way behind on my errands, the kids are due home from school any minute and I still need to clean the house! I promise though we can discuss Romans 1 and anything else you wish to this evening. Until later then :)
Jar - I do not believe studying through a subject is doing "contortions". Especially when you are dealing with a subject as important as this one. After all, we ARE discussing roughly 5-10% of the world's population here. Now it may not seem like much. But try the shoe on the other foot for a moment.
Let's suppose for a moment that the Church told you that you could accept Jesus Christ all right. But that to please God (really the Church) you needed to become a homosexual else you would be "sinning". Wouldn't that be bothersome to you? Wouldn't you want to study the subject out a bit to see if they were correct or incorrect in their interpretation of Scripture? Remember it is you who are telling THEM to change. They are not asking you to. Studying the Word of God to understand and rightly divide God’s will from man’s doctrine is always a worthwhile “contortion” in my opinion.
Jar let us attack the problem before us with clarity of purpose and not attempt a ‘shotgun’ approach that attempts to drag this discussion in a hundred different directions. The issue on the table is clearly – “Is Homosexuality a sin"? Yes or no? Using Scripture to prove ones case of course.
On another note simply because one interprets passages Scripture differently than you do does not make them a “false prophet”, imply they are preaching a “false Messiah” or indicate that they are using a “different gospel”. It simply means that they have a different interpretation.
Look on the bright side. If Paul didn’t have a “different interpretation” of the Gospel and the saving grace of Jesus. The Christian church would still be entirely Jewish! If Luther didn’t have a “different interpretation” of the Gospel we would not have had the reformation. If the northern churches didn’t have a “different interpretation” of the Gospel concerning slavery we would be a divided nation and slavery would still be practiced! If the Pentecostal movement didn’t have a “different interpretation” of the spiritual gifts this past decade wouldn’t have seen some of the powerful moves of God that can now be attributed to the divine work of the Holy Spirit.
Jar – “different interpretations” should be discussed with open minds and open hearts. Using the Bible (not our prejudices) and our common profession of faith in Jesus Christ as the center point from which we begin our discourse. Proclaiming that anyone having a different “interpretation” of God’s Word is a “false prophet” is a pretty heavy accusation no?
Let us begin again. “Is Homosexuality in and of itself a sin?” Shall we start with the New Testament or the Old? My preference is always the New as we are under a new covenant however we can start ‘at the beginning’ if you so desire.
Note: I forgot to mention that you leaped upon the "signs and wonders" aspect. Totally ignoring that these gay Christians also possessed a profession of faith in Jesus Christ (not a false Messiah). Their lives exhibited all the fruits of character discussed in Galatians AND some of them had obvoiusly been gifted with spiritual gifts. I agree totally that anyone only exhibiting "signs and wonders" without the other two witnesses (i.e. their profession of faith and their character - i.e. the fruit of their lives) also present is to be suspect. I gave a three fold witness - not one.
Sense earth, in it's natural and unpoluted state, is simply a rough mirror of our spiritual home. My personnel belief is that the beautiful trees and flowers, animals and my pets will be in heaven too. They aren't like us having 'choices' to make in this life. They just are who they are. I would be heart broken if my shepherd Buddy wasn't there waiting for me when I finally get home for good. I will add though that I have never fully studied this subject out (i.e. animals in heaven). It just was never an issue for me. I fully expect heaven to be what earth was intended to be. And for me that includes my beautiful mountains, lakes and trees. Oceans and animals and some wonderful, wonderful people.
Again Jar I think your thoughts are still skewed by the notion that homosexuality is in and of itself a sin. Therefore such a sin is comparable to stealing, lying etc.. If you look further you will see that stealing, lying, bank robbery, fornication etc… are all sins that break the great commandment of love. They are acts that in and of itself are a) harmful to either you or someone else and b) harm ones relationship with God. As such they break the great commandment of love. On the other hand ones sexual orientation in and of itself is spiritually neutral.
As far as “twisting God’s word” nothing could be further from the truth! If you know of any other places in the Bible outside of the 3 passages in the NT (all of which I alluded to) and the 3 passages in the OT (2 are related to the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and the 3rd concerning the Levitical Law) I would be most interested in hearing it.
Now I have a question for you. According to your interpretation that Homosexuality is in and of itself a sin. According to Matthew 7:18-20 which spiritual fruit would you expect a “gay” Christian to exhibit? What would it mean if instead they exhibited the full gambit of fruits listed in Galatians 5:22-23? Further how would you explain them leading others to Christ knowing that satan would never do such a thing for it would be “dividing” his house (Luke 11:17-20). Further more what if some of these people had even been given many (if not most) of the spiritual gifts listed in 1 Corinthians 12 (remember the story of Peter in Acts 11:15-17)? How do you reconcile the two? Is such a thing even possible knowing that “light” and “darkness” can have no fellowship (2 Cor 6:14) and that there is no such thing as spiritual “neutrality” (Mark 9:38-40, Matthew 6:24, 23:8)?
Now I tell you the truth Jar – I have seen it in our church and countless others across the United States and abroad. There is a great Christian movement happening RIGHT NOW in the gay community. But it isn’t quite following the ‘program’ you and mls may think it might! But then that is the beauty of God no?! His ways are far beyond our own. Born in a stable our King of kings came always to the lost and down trodden. He did not follow the finally set rules, regulations, time line and agenda the Pharisees and Sadducees had proscribed! God’s will is, and will, always be done! He will always find a way to reach His people (not necessarily ‘your’ people mind you! Lol!). And He still brings the same message of love and forgiveness he brought to you Jar! A love without boundaries and a mercy without end. And yes, He even invited the Romans, Gentiles, blacks, women and….. gays(!) to His table. Selah
"Homosexual behavior is a sin" - I think we have found the crux of our disagreement. You interpret Scripture to proclaim homosexuality as a sin (and about 1/2 to 2/3 of the Christian community agrees with you) and I do not (the other 1/2 to 1/3 of the Christian community agrees with me).
Studying the further you will find that the different interpretations revolve around the follow:
1. The interpretation of the word "arsenokoitais" found in 1 Cor 6:9-10 and again in 1 Timothy 1:9-10. You interpret that word to mean "homosexual" while I interpret that word to mean promiscuity.
2. The interpretation of the word "phusikos" (Strong's #5446) and "phusis" (Strong's #5449) which means "natural" found in Romans 1:21-31. You probably interpret that word to mean what is "natural" for you (I presume you are heterosexual) is what is "natural" for everyone. While I interpret the word to mean 'that what is natural for each individual'. i.e. For a homosexual being with another partner of the same sex is what is "natural" for them while for a heterosexual being with a partner of the opposite sex is what is "natural" for them.
3. The interpretation of the Sodom and Gomorrah story. You probably see the acts of the men of Sodom as some sort of homosexual activity while I see it as an ugly and violent gang action in which sexual orientation had little relevancy.
We could go further into the holiness codes found in Leviticus. However while that study is interesting. I think we both agree that we are no longer under these laws anymore with the coming of Christ.
Have I correctly summarized our differences of interpretation? If you would like to discuss any of these I would be more than happy to do so. Perhaps off-line so we don't bore anyone else on this thread? Normally I wouldn't get into minutia of Biblical interpretation like this (except during my work with Church activities or during my own personnel study time) but when your discussing discriminating and alienating roughly 5-10% of the human population through an interpretation of 2 words and 1 story we are talking some pretty serious stuff!
I too find nothing in Scripture that would forbid trading in stocks. If God has given us gifts and resources we serve Him best by putting those gifts and resources to good use. If we hoard (or hide) these gifts and/or resources then I believe we are not fulfilling His best for us. Some folks (like ZEEV!) obviously have a great talent for such endeavors. To not use these talents would be akin to an athlete or a musician or dancer never expressing their God given gifts.
When I used to compete in Track (Javelin) my personal motto was: His gift, my joy, His glory, our victory (or defeat! Lol!) In short, I felt I was honoring God by developing and using my God given "gifts" to the best of my ability. In my opinion someone who has the gift of buying and selling (anything legal) is no different. They have a God given gift - let them use it!
mlsoft - are you implying that a homosexual cannot be a Christian and a Christian cannot be a homosexual? If so, there are problems with such a notion.
Let's begin with the idea that a homosexual cannot be a Christian. John 3:16 clearly states that "…God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
The word “whoever” (or “whosoever”) implies that any and all can freely accept the gift of life that Jesus offers the world. There are no preconditions and no one is excluded. The ONLY requirement is that one “believes in him”.
Does a homosexual have to convert to heterosexuality or celibacy to remain a Christian? No. Spiritual maturity (or immaturity) has nothing to do with ones sexual orientation. What God is calling for us to do is to live out His royal commandment of love (Matthew 22:37-40 and Galatians 5:14) while maturing into the “fullness of Him” (Christ).
Sorry for being so late in replying back to you. I was busy taking care of our daughter today. As far as your question concerning the proper historical translation concerning this word. I believe both Worrell and the King James versions predate the NIV by a good 400 (KJ) to 500+ years (Worrell). It is only our latest translations (e.g. NIV) that are now retranslating arsenokoitais into “homosexual”. Such a radical retranslation of this word has caused no minor consternation within the Theological and academic communities. However it surely isn’t the first time political overtones have shaped our translation of certain passages within Scriptures. Thankfully these issues get worked out over time.
On another note you seemed to have some issues with passages in the Old Testament and in Romans 1. If you would like to discuss these I would be more than happy to do so. Should we take this off-line though? I don’t know how many other folks on this thread would enjoy such a discussion as much as we would! :)
You will find when studying 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 you will find a variety of translations. Worrell says “sodomites”, the NIV (of which you quoted) states “homosexuals”, while most other versions, King James included, state “abusers of themselves with mankind”. The confusion comes from the proper translation of the Greek word arsenokoitais (Strongs #733).
From talking with Bible scholars it seems that this word is a form of Greek slang and thus the confusion on how it should be properly translated. The best translation I’ve been able to find comes from an article written by Paul R. Johnson in an article titled "A New Look at Arsenokoitais".
"The Greek compound term arseno-koitais literally means ‘the male who has many beds’. The word arsen means ‘male’, the adjective o means ‘the’, and the term koitais is defined as ‘many beds’. Thus, the entire phrase means a male with multiple bed-partners; a promiscuous man. Everywhere that the word koitais is used in the plural in the Bible denotes promiscuity. However, when the same word is used in the singular form, the Bible gives approval because the singular denotes monogamy."
In short, God is not against homosexuals nor heterosexuals per say. These passages are instead preaching against wanton promiscuity. By the way Sam – the author of the book you were encouraged to read. Is a wonderful man, a devout Christian and a good friend :)
I think an explosion in the tire would cause the shuttle to break apart 'all of a sudden'. I don't think the evidence is pointing in that direction at all. I think the thing was coming apart the moment it hit CA and the problem only got worse until the whole thing disintegrated over TX.
Interesting. That might also explain the explosion sound we heard as the shuttle passed overhead. Whatever it was I'm becoming more and more convinced that the Shuttle started it's initial break up near CA. Once something started to go wrong the Shuttle's flight path would begin to divert off it's intended course just enough to cause excessive heating (and vibration?). The data as the shuttle passed over CA and NV is imperative to have.
What is the "blue jet" theory?
Zeev. My neighbor who is a retired NASA engineer has his own theory.
a) The shuttle started its initial break up over CA - not Texas or even AZ.
b) The break up was caused by a confluence of events.
1. Missing tiles that left the shuttle vulnerable to heat spikes and would cause the aircraft to not operate/fly optimally.
2. The shuttle's problems were exacerbated when it hit a high pocket, or "bubble" as he calls it of atmospheric air over the Sierra mountains (possibly even over the Pacific ocean just off shore). Such atmospheric bubbles can extend to extreme altitudes in these regions.
3. He came to these conclusions various ways. 1) The missing heat tiles alone he feels wouldn't have brought the craft down. 2) A load explosion was heard in our area as the shuttle went overhead. It was NOT a sonic boom and was heard across a wide area around where I live (high in the Sierra mountains near the NV border).
My neighbor had other 'proof' to back his theory but it was over my head. He used to work with two of NASA's top atmospheric scientists so he knows a thing or two about this. Unfortunately they (and he) are retired now so they are trying to figure out how to get the info to NASA (and have someone listen!). By the way. He came to these conclusions 2 days ago. Before any of these videos or other evidence came forward to support his theory.
"heating should have been observed as soon as they hit the atmosphere over the pacific". Zeev - a lurker here :) Just a quick note on your thoughts concerning heating when they first re-entered the atmosphere. I live in the Sierra mountains above Sacramento. The shuttles flight path went right over our home. Several of our neighbors - including one man who was a former NASA engineer heard a loud boom at exactly 5:59am as the craft flew overhead. It was NOT a sonic boom but more like an explosion. My neighbor is rounding up the reports now and trying to time them back to when the craft should have been directly overhead. The times appear to be quite close.
Now he has his own theories about what happened but the sum of it is this. That the craft was starting to break-up long before it got to Texas.
Hey guys - nice to see many of the 'crew' here :).. still hoping SI can make it though!