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Agreed, Roger! I'm hanging in. No reason not to!!!
I couldn't agree more, Roger. Long term investors get restless when they see the kind of action we have seen as of late. I'm sure the company would like to see a rise in stock price, as well, but they are the ones who have to do something about that. We are at their mercy and they ARE the ones that need "to step up", as you said!
You know, Roger, yes that would have been awesome-- but I'm with you on this. I'm long and bullish and I'm always willing to wait-- as these exciting things brewing in the company take time and many times people need to see it happening before they are willing to jump on board. However, I feel that if the company looks like a win win situation, why not hop on board when the price is still a bargain?!! By the time others catch on, we will have seen some decent profit already, my friend!!
As they say, Roger-- Good things come to those who wait!
Absolutely, Roger! I couldn't agree with you more!
I agree, Jerseyfish, as this also shows a couple of things. 1. They have a worthy game plan that they presented to obtain that credit. 2. They are deemed credit worthy and at a decent interest rate, so they have decent credit. 3. They already have a plan in place to utilize this to clear up debts and reorganize to free up a sizable amount of cash to proceed with more acquisitions by using a sound strategy instead just plunging into more debt. So-- not just any company can acquire this amount of credit line without some very positive attributes going for it!!
Well, wallstsouth, I gave you a chance to prove your were a serious shareholder of STCC and you fell "short" (pun intended) when you said-- "don't need DD". I see your alias was only "born" a short while ago and all 13 posts so far have been attempts on this board to frighten people into "panic selling" as a true "short" does. We really are not interested in your "Mumbo jumbo" and the last short who came on this board screamed for a nickel. And you want a dime. Well please dream elsewhere and YES, if you have no DD to back your info up, you're just pulling it from your....ear!! And sorry, but that does not count and won't work here. This group DOES their DD.
Curious, wallstsouth, this will "never recover" based on what? An opinion? Or do you have some DD to back that up? From what I have seen so far, it seems to show solid with financing news out today. Those are all positives IMO. Thanks!!
Thanks, Mr. T! Good to see you again!
Hi. I see some of my old stock friends here-- Mr.T, Alchemy, CJ--who were here last year when this was an APS stock pick. I made a very decent amount of money buying in at .08 and selling at .415. Now I'm seeing that you all feel there is some hope that .0017 is pretty much the bottom and it will bounce up from here. I've considered picking up some cheapies, as if indeed it would go up from that, one could make a decent chunk of change! I've written to Richard and he still says that TAGG needs to be a success for him. He says all it needs is monetization and it is nearly there. He said that of course he is not at liberty to make any announcement until they are certain of what those will be. He said he continues to do his best.
So, my old trader friends-- and even those who are new here, what is your opinion and what makes you hold the opinion that you do? Any input would be greatly appreciated!!
Thanks checking into that. It's always a positive sign when they email a shareholder back in such an expedient manner, as well. Thank you for sharing her email response with us!
Agreed!!
Thank you for setting the record straight! This is indeed a company with potential!
Well, kentonmag1, considering that you have NEVER shown any interest in this stock before, why now? It is usually those who wish to short the stock that suddenly show up with all the negatives to put fear into people so they jump ship and make it much more delightful for shorts. True, I have not posted on this board before, either, but I HAVE held this stock for some time now. I am not one to normally post, but occasionally I will, especially when I see a short coming from a mile away to start the "fear mongering"
Yes, you are correct in your info that it IS priced considerably over book value (as are many other stocks) and you are correct about the cash on hand, but-- as Roger said, this is an actual company trying to make a go of it, as evidenced by their acquisition. Since that JUST happened, one would not expect to see the fruits of that labor in ONE day.
Furthermore, the 52 week low was .15, and that was before the acquisition. So, it held its own pretty darned well. So, why, now-- would it "fall hard and fast to 5 cents", when it has not done that before?? Could it be a short's dream? Why yes, I do believe it could.
I'm with Roger. It's taking some hits now from shorts, and then it will recover. So, if you do not hold shares, which I presume you DO NOT, then move on over to the board in which you DO hold stock, instead of popping onto this one all of a sudden to put the fear into those of us who DO hold shares in this company, in a rather shameful attempt to create fear and panic.
This is not a one day pump and dump, just because it was profiled by some newsletters. Those are the ones that jump up, and then drop like a stone. This one has floated along pretty nicely for some time now holding its own. Yes, I'm sure the shorts would love for it to drop to .05, but it hasn't so far, so why now?
Well, the judge has given Google EVERY chance to show the court that they intend to cooperate. And at every turn they show him that they have ZERO intent to do so. On the other hand, he can see that Vringo has made valient efforts to hammer this out fairly-- BUT--Google just keeps coming up with new ways over & over to thwart any efforts by Vringo to work this deal out. There's that old adage--- If you give a person enough rope, they will eventually hang THEMSELVES. Maybe Judge Jackson is doing just that. When he rules he may say to Google--' I gave you every opportunity to do the right thing, BUT, you did NOT. So now I'm going to make the "right" decison for you!! Simply a possible scenerio, and also just IMO.
Hey, it all counts!! Glad to hear it!
Awesome Celtic that you got in at 2.77....perfect timing!! And you said it-- let's go!! Woo hoo!!
Gotta love VRNG today! Looks like things are looking UP!!
true nuff said
Thank you!!
Agree. Google has gone with their "head through the wall" on basically EVERYTHING. That now includes them saying- Well,we don't LIKE the jury's ruling so we want it thrown out and changed to OUR favor. Imagine if every defendant could simply do this any time they did not care for the jury verdict. Why even have a jury trial then? To demand this makes a mockery of the entire judicial process.
REBUTTAL to RAVICHER
VERY well thought and EDUCATED rebuttal to Ravicher "hit piece"
KevinPorter
Dec 5 09:48 AM
VRNG 12/05 updated valuation
Total Estimated Cash Value $8.35
Conservative Company Fair Value $11.69- $12.52
JJ ruling on math error should be any day next week
Past Damages Recap
158M (Google past damages fix)
15M (4 other defendants)
15M (Oct 1 - Nov 6 Supplemental damages motion)
+ interests
=
Almost 200M
Quite a change from the current 30M
The table of past damages presented during the trial is from Sept 15 2011 to Oct 01 2012 (only 12.5 months).
That's why VRNG already filed a motion seeking for supplemental damages from Oct 01 to Nov 06 (day of verdict).
I was wrong about the annualized number 173M divided by 13.5 months, it's divided by 12.5 months.
173M / 12.5 months is 166M annualized
a much better annualized number than previously thought (prev estimate 153M)
Actually final 2012 number should be about 175M since revenues are ramping vs 2011, especially mobile ads which are more than 3 times 2011
Future Royalties might be higher than 3.5% or JJ could up the 20.9% AdWords portion.
Using only 3.5% of 20.9% and a very conservative 11% y/y AdWords growth we have 740M of future damages.
Skyrocketing Google mobile ads (2016 estimate is almost 4 times 2012)
will probably fuel overall ads growth to 20% Y/Y and we have 880M of future damages.
Future Damages
740M very conservative
810M conservative
880M likely
950M possible
These numbers are much higher than my previous estimate
Using the 810M conservative estimate, Total award already won 1B (almost 200 past + 810 future)
3.5% or 20.9% upped at final judgement = Total award 1.5-2B (to be calculated)
Laches appeal worth 350M extra potential => GOOG should think twice about an appeal
Don't forget the image damage for several years for such a big company infringing in its core business and the fact that they paid 500M just to settle the canadian pharmacy ads issue.
If I were Google, I'd buy the patents or VRNG for 1-1.3B as soon as possible ($9-11.5 a share) through an hostile takeover if necessary. As soon as possible means before MSFT YHOO or any other or before VRNG starts its own search engine.
Hostile takeovers through tender offers involve the acquiring company purchasing the shares of the target firm directly from shareholders or on the secondary markets.
Buying all or a majority of the company's shares allows the acquiring company to possess ownership of the target company.
GOOG could offer $1B ($9 a share) and acquire the company by owning just 51% shares, thus paying only 510M vs 1B lost in the trial (or even more if JJ ups future royalties) and getting more than 500 patents. Why shouldn't they do it ?
Regarding an appeal
An appeal is not a de novo trial.
After a jury trial, it is very difficult to win an appeal, almost impossible.
The appellate court can only reverse the trial court's decision if it finds a legal mistake in the trial court proceedings that was so important that it changed at least part of the outcome of the case.
The fact findings of the jury re infringement will stand here.
Google can't change that.
Basically Google has already lost it all.
There could easily be no appeal at all, otherwise Google will risk the laches amount (350M) and 3x damages.
These are even more reasons to takeover VRNG.
New Search Engine
Imagine Vringo asking for an injunction immediately after starting a new search engine.
That would be fun.
At that point GOOG would buy VRNG for any sum (3-6 Billions) without risking an injunction ruling.
Company Valuation
Fully diluted shares only if warrants are exercised.
If warrants are exercised = 55M extra cash for VRNG, which puts cash at 115M already (60M+55M)
If you use a net 52% (after legal and taxes) of 1B + 115M cash
+ NOLs Net operating losses in previous years which should help another 20M,
you have net cash of $5.95 a share fully diluted (much more if JJ ups 3.5% or 20.9% at final judgment)
Search patents vs other GOOG adwords network partners (at least $0.40 a share net value)
Search patents vs MSFT YHOO (at least $1 a share net value)
Telecom patents vs ZTE Huawei Motorola Cisco Juniper Siemens etc. (at least $1 a share net value)
Total Estimated Cash Value $8.35 (using conservative numbers for each of the 4 parts 5.95+0.40+1+1)
Newly acquired Spectrum patents vs ? (unknown value, not even used in this valuation)
New Lang patents vs ? (unknown value, not even used in this valuation)
VRNG was able to win about 1B out of a 3M patents purchase. This is a 333x multiplier.
These guys are geniuses.
The Stock should be at the VERY least valued at a 1.4-1.5x estimated cash multiplier which is $11.69- $12.52 per share.
This is a very conservative multiplier.
Just look at VHC, it's trading at a much higher multiplier.
The $11.69- $12.52 range is a good short term target.
VRNG is a real gift at this price.
Excellent point!!
Yes SA article was beyond ridiculous. Anyone who takes that advice to short at 4 deserves to follow the foolish author right off the end of the gang plank like they're going to!!!!
Very Insightful.. .From: msgreenacres (Rep: 42)Date: 11/15/2012 11:29
Forum: Vringo, Inc. - Msg #1996Thread #673475698 (Rec: 0)
VRNG....I listened to the conference call yesterday.....
The most important thing I heard was that they own over 500 patents, and Lang
filed for 9 more of his own patents just in the last quarter.....
They bought the "2G", "3G", and "4G" mobile technology patents.....now that is big
This ZTE lawsuit is just one of maybe 10, and when asked if they were suing MSFT and
YHOO....we got the political answer "can't say".....but I get the feeling the answer is yes.
Ok, they only had 60M cash on hand and 0 debt......but they also have not settled the Lawsuit with GOOG, TGT, AOL, ETC. It's still on the judges docket, and they are asking for interest retroactive.
Motion days are Tues and Fridays, but with something like this....judge can decide at anytime.......
Good to buy and hold on drops....I loaded up today
Slim to None
November 13th what to consider as we wait
By edvacourt . Nov 13, 2012 10:32 AM . Permalink
Yesterday morning I mentioned the filings from Vringo relative to seeking an extra month of past damages, Becker's damages calulation declaration and so on. The calculations that Vringo is asking the court to confirm are the same ones that the court would need to confirm AND change from Google's past damage calculation by the jury. I get that people want to focus on the future and the future here is very bright but I don't want people to think for a second that Vringo is simply going to let that money get away. I have spoken with more than one attorney that does this specific work for a living. The idea that Judge Jackson will not correct this mistake is in their opinion laughable. He may be hoping that he won't have to correct this mistake (settlement or some other satisfactory conclusion to the case) but I'm thinking it is likely that he will. Also, Vringo wants a final ruling here that sets precedent (federal jury verdict) as it turns to the many other infringers that it is likely to pursue. A settlement with no ruling is not what Vringo is playing for.
I continue to believe we will have a resolution this week (perhaps not a full one but at the very least a bifurcated one) that takes any uncertainty out of the Vringo value equation. My personal opinion on the weight of the facts that we know post trial is that this company is severely undervalued. For those that think a mistrial is a possibility that is also highly unlikely according to my sources. Should the Judge decide to declare a mistrial he is likely only to retry the damages question which I have also been told favors Vringo since no new evidence is likely to be allowed and a new jury could choose the high end of Becker's scale of 40% instead of 20.9% (and there is nothing lower than 20.9% in the record) which of course would not moving in the right direction for Google. Should that specter arrive look for Google to settle post haste if in fact those discussions are not ongoing now.
Royalties higher that 3.5. Federal Decisions Indicate Post-Verdict RR higher than 3.5%
By brian48393 . Nov 9, 2012 2:39 PM . Permalink
Well, I tried to post links, or at least copy and paste and YMB is acting crazy, but here is point my anyway. If you search "Post-Verdict Royalty Rates Higher than Pre-Verdict", you will find many law articles on the topic. The Federal Circuit Opinions are evolving on the subject, but as they stand right now, the 3.5% that the jury used in it's verdict is only the starting point that Judge Jackson will use when imposing the future rate because Google is now a "willful infringer" after the verdict. Google may very well be staring at a 5-10% royalty rate moving forward if they do not settle. A small sampling of Federal Opinion : "Federal Circuit decision that there is a fundamental difference, however, between
a reasonable royalty for pre-verdict infringement and damages for post-verdict infringement. Prior to judgment ,liability for infringement, as well as the validity of the patent, is uncertain, and damages are determined in the context of that uncertainty. Once a judgment of validity and infringement has been entered, however, the calculus is markedly different because different economic factors are involved."
For what it's worth, I think your theory has some teeth to it. I agree the stock is being "held down". I also think there are many factors being discussed and considered. It may surprise a lot of people.
EDVACOURT update! VERY promising!
Post trial update: Jury calculations, Judge's ruling, settlement or buyout
By edvacourt . 15 minutes ago
A few things quickly this morning. I have spoken with attorney's with both corporate and patent litigation backgrounds. This is for informational purposes only however and I am not suggesting anyone trade on this information. First, since there has been no final ruling the judge can absolutely change the faulty verdict math. If a ruling had been made it could still be done but is considerably more complicated. I'm looking for an all in number of $173M in past damages to be awarded by the Judge. I am also expecting that the judge has or will order the two sides to attempt to settle again. He may hold the the future royalty number back and keep the "threat" of injunction in his back pocket while he gives them a short time frame to work it out. Google will want a number that gives them a paid up license and authorizes its use by their clients. I'm guessing this number will be around $600M. I think Google will cover expenses on top of that.
This would work well for both sides. Vringo gets the payment now and there are no appeals. Vringo can also seek to litigate against non-Google partners. For Google the matter is over and is not outstanding when/if there is an FTC lawsuit against them. This stock is considerably undervalued here and I think we will see that as the ruling comes out hopefully at latest by the middle of next week. I would imagine that Vringo counsel has already illustrated the damaging effect a "win" has had on their company. I think the Judge recognizes and seeks to rectify this in short order. I still consider a buyout to be remote but others have illustrated reasonable rationale for this. I don't think it happens primarily because Vringo would like to continue to roll out their own company
James Altucher answers on Twitter today 11/8 right before market close
Very interesting......
1). He was asked by @nj_joejoe:
Question:
@nj_joejoe: @jaltucher $VRNG did you like the results from the trial?
Answer:
@jaltucher: @nj_joejoe the results were great: $GOOG guilty and $VRNG makes $600-800mm
2). He was asked by @WesStull:
Question:
@WesStull: @jaltucher Your top 5 growth stocks in order? Say years ago, answer could have been Apple, Google, ISRG, etc. Which ones now?
Answer:
@jaltucher: @WesStull. 1). $TROV 2) $VRNG and 3 others i cant say yet
So there you have it! A GOOG defeat, a $600-$800M award, and $VRNG rated as his 2nd growth rated stock!! Looks promising!!!
If it truly is botched, the courts have an obligation to correct it. And when the dust settles, the the stock should refect it. As you said, then $10 or over.
Thank you for being the voice of reason. Yes, research and DD bears this out. Instead people were playing "chicken little" and running amok saying "the sky is falling, the sky is falling" And monkey see, monkey do- EXCEPT for the people that did their DD and research from start to finish on this.
Roght. And the jury followed this formula exactly like the judge wanted them to. So, there would be no reason for him not to OK their royalty award since he made it clear this is the formula HE intemds to follow as well.
Yep you are absolutely right. Before waiting for the dust to settle, they ran with the wrong info!!
I totally agree. People panicked and failed to wait for the entire picture. As you said- two sides to every coin.
I was actually foolish enough to think that Google might settle before the trial. Silly me. That would have required Google to "do the right thing". They haven't done the right thing before, so I guess they figured, why start now? After all, being crooked has worked so well for them up until now... why blow a good gig they got going? One word for them. Pathetic.
Right you are!! And I agree- some jail time for the rich, thieving crooks may cause them to ponder a little before they stomp all over people. Unfotunately, those are also the ones who have enough money to "buy themselves" out of every jam.
I've never dined and ditched...lol...but you're right about Google...they are definately out of town on this one...and feel entitled to "dine and ditch" They need to be taught that there's NO free lunch!!