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Royal Dude,
Glad to see you back posting. I try and follow everyone's views but don't post much because of lack of knowledge to contribute but mainly health reasons. There are a lot of great posters that I respect and also some crap bashers who continue to make fools of themselves.
Yes, Ron you can be the winner if you insist, but you would have had to agree to the 75%/25% split and signed the releases to be this winner. Would that decision you made not have modified your property rights?
Let us agree that we are both winners if we get a fair payment. I know I will be happy either way. I am so blessed in many ways other than playing the stock market. Good luck to everyone.
ReikoBlack, This was an old post I had in June 2018 which was my opinion then and still is. Good luck all the longs.
dugit69
Re: None
Monday, June 04, 2018 6:27:07 PM
Post# 521217 of 720042
Absolute Priority Rule/US Supreme Court
My opinion: The absolute priority rule is the law of the land, not to be changed by any judge or the FDIC without “CONCENT” of creditors. In our case the bankruptcy court did not change the absolute priority rule but merely approved the new agreed settlement plan by TPS, P’s, K’s, and U’s and ruled their plan to be fair and equitable. That plan was for all future assets to be distributed at 75%/25% to the end. The creditors only approved the U’s participation because of possible higher assets. The U’s consented because of higher chance of getting anything is better than nothing. Everyone signed releases. The argument of assets outside the bankruptcy court means nothing because U’s agreed to the new plan distribution of 75%/25% for their stock ownership for any assets returned.
April 6, 2017, the United States Supreme Court held that bankruptcy courts may not approve structured dismissals that provide the distributions that violate the Code’s priority rules without the consent of the affected creditors. Google It. Only way to change priority rule is with “consent”. Consent happened with the settlement plan, which made the POR7 the only distribution everyone will see.
The Supreme Court did not address “Gifting”. Gifting also changes the absolute priority rule and affects creditors. I believe the 2017 ruling by the US Supreme Court applies to bankruptcy courts and the FDIC the same. The FDIC cannot gift JPM a multi billion dollar company for 1.8 billion without the written consent and release of the creditors. Same as the bankruptcy court, in my opinion. The majority of our assets are still intact and most will be coming back.
Good luck to everyone and hope WMIH starts to move soon. I am unable to respond to questions but wish everyone good luck on this investment. I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents on an issue that no one seems to agree. Not wanting to change anyone's opinion because it simply does not change what happens. I also can see the opposing sides opinion. Just not what I believe. I appreciate everyone’s hard work and contributions.
Absolute Priority Rule/US Supreme Court
My opinion: The absolute priority rule is the law of the land, not to be changed by any judge or the FDIC without “CONCENT” of creditors. In our case the bankruptcy court did not change the absolute priority rule but merely approved the new agreed settlement plan by TPS, P’s, K’s, and U’s and ruled their plan to be fair and equitable. That plan was for all future assets to be distributed at 75%/25% to the end. The creditors only approved the U’s participation because of possible higher assets. The U’s consented because of higher chance of getting anything is better than nothing. Everyone signed releases. The argument of assets outside the bankruptcy court means nothing because U’s agreed to the new plan distribution of 75%/25% for their stock ownership for any assets returned.
April 6, 2017, the United States Supreme Court held that bankruptcy courts may not approve structured dismissals that provide the distributions that violate the Code’s priority rules without the consent of the affected creditors. Google It. Only way to change priority rule is with “consent”. Consent happened with the settlement plan, which made the POR7 the only distribution everyone will see.
The Supreme Court did not address “Gifting”. Gifting also changes the absolute priority rule and affects creditors. I believe the 2017 ruling by the US Supreme Court applies to bankruptcy courts and the FDIC the same. The FDIC cannot gift JPM a multi billion dollar company for 1.8 billion without the written consent and release of the creditors. Same as the bankruptcy court, in my opinion. The majority of our assets are still intact and most will be coming back.
Good luck to everyone and hope WMIH starts to move soon. I am unable to respond to questions but wish everyone good luck on this investment. I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents on an issue that no one seems to agree. Not wanting to change anyone's opinion because it simply does not change what happens. I also can see the opposing sides opinion. Just not what I believe. I appreciate everyone’s hard work and contributions.
Statement by Bizreader, “Indemnity is one thing but the Dimons of the world often confuse the of idea of indemnity with other things such as theft, breaking the law and getting away with it, playing unfair and misrepresenting facts without any consequences”.
I agree with your statement 100%. I wonder how it came about that the FDIC had such a disagreement with JPMorgan over liabilities that they had to enlist the Department of Justice to strong arm Dimon. I think there is a very strong chance that Dimon was also refusing to return most of WMI’s assets and the Department had to set Jamie Dimon straight on JPMorgan's liability with the FDIC-R and there would be no "Indemnity".
Everything is inter-weaved and I believe the stars are lining up nicely.
nhtrader, What I like the most about the 13B settlement is that Jamie Dimon had to publicly admit that he was legally wrong and JPMorgan did not have FDIC’s robust indemnity in WMB receivership agreement as stated previously by Dimon. JPMorgan knows that if they try and obstruct the full return of WMI’s assets there is now no indemnity. I also believe the Department of Justice reiterated to JPMorgan their liability if all of WMI’s assets are not fully returned to FDIC-R.
Indemnities did not apply as per Jamie Dimon's statement; “we thought we had robust indemnities from the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation and the WaMu receivership, but as part of our negotiations with the Department of Justice that led to our big mortgage settlement, we had to give those up".
JPMorgan "had to give them up as per the big mortgage settlement". Jamie found out that his assumption of robust indemnities does not trump the Constitution that the Fifth Amendment provides that private property shall not be taken without just compensation.
I believe Dimon confirms AZ’s Unicorn Theory!
Dimon's statement, "And in the WaMu case, we thought we had robust indemnities from the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation and the WaMu receivership, but as part of our negotiations with the Department of Justice that led to our big mortgage settlement, we had to give those up".
I believe Dimon’s statement confirms AZ’s unicorn theory that JPMorgan assumed that FDIC would give them and their cronies the $100’s of Billion’s of assets owned by Washington Mutual. I believe Dimon thought he had robust indemnities given by FDIC for the assets taken from the Holding Company but later found this to be incorrect. Susman argued the Holding Company’s legal rights thus saving equity. During our mandatory mediation the Department of Justice was also forcing a separate negotiation with JPMorgan to return big mortgages back to FDIC-R. POR7 approved along with JPMorgan mortgage settlement.
Holding Company’s assets will be coming back to equity through the FDIC-R, as soon as an entity can be set in place to properly service the assets, which is the second part of AZ’s theory.
Roach, Might want to have another conversation with your accountant. Yes max. limit is $3,000 against any short term capital gain (Assets held one year or less), referred to ordinary income.
IRS allows you to off set total amount of Long Term Capital Gain (Assets held one year plus one day) against your NOL (Net operating loss carried forward) You can carry over the unused NOL to the next year.
Short term Capital gains = $3,000/yr.
Long term Capital gains = Up to NOL with unused carried forward.
I'm no expert with large businesses but this is the way it is for personal filings.
33B+ Known Value of Disputed Assets Look at 19,20 and 26. Good refresher on the disputed assets that is part of Closing Arguments leading into settlement of POR 7.
Washington Mutual (WMI) - Closing Argument of the Equity Committee (1st Confirmation Hearing in December 2010)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/63319846/Washington-Mutual-WMI-Closing-Argument-of-the-Equity-Committee-1st-Confirmation-Hearing-in-December-2010
AZ,
Thanks for your well thought out theory. I can see where this approach would be beneficial for escrow marker holders and WMIH. This option would be plausible to returning assets back to old shareholders through their escrow markers and at the same time enhance WMIH share price. I appreciate all the work you and others have done keeping these discussions on track.
I don’t pay any attention to all the naysayers for they have their own personal agenda, which is not in the best interest of the investor.
Thanks again!
So if the escrows get 10billion, does someone know what the per share amount for old commons?
I believe commons would get $2.09.
I agree that only a Court of Law can determine if and when a corporate veil is pierced of the holding company or any corporation for that matter. Misinformation to discredit a return in the waterfall to escrow holders is very strong on this board for some reason.
Clawmann I wanted to say I appreciate your contribution to the board.
I have discussed this with my accountant, who I believe is very knowledgeable in this area. He confirmed that wmih shares received on conversion acquire the basis of your old wamu shares and the escrows tracking shares have no basis. You should be able to confirm this basis through your brokerage account.
All payout from escrow will be treated as capital gains. Held less than 1 year is short term capital gains and taxed at the same marginal rate as the taxpayers other ordinary income rates. Held for one year and a day is long term capital gains and taxed according to individual income bracket. Since we have owned and held on to our escrow for over a year and a day then any payout would be treated as long term capital gains.
olti -- well, what you state as "we all know" that -- it's not what was in the docket. Facts matter.
...Catz
I get the individual foreclosure folks -- trying to save their house -- playing the games with the system saying "show me the note" and all that stuff.
Some courts/jurisdictions allow for such technicalities to muck up the works. Dot eyes, cross tees, etc."show me the note" games....
Catz
I guess when it comes to JPM illegally foreclosing on families to take their homes away you just do not want to be bothered by "Facts matter"
Under the priority or waterfall of Law then P’s would be compensated $1,000 face value plus interest before U‘s received any money. However this changed under POR 7, when both P’s and U’s agreed to the 75/25% split with no cap for P’s.
Who comes out better under this agreement will be determined by total dollar amount that flows to LT, if any. If LT gets under 10B then I would say U’s benefit more with the 75%/25% agreement than the old waterfall priority. Over 10B and P’s will benefit the most. I believe the LT is bound to follow the 75/25% split by the POR7, right or wrong. I appreciate LG and his optimistic posts and hope you are correct.
Good luck to everyone.
"because you were fooled into selling u's and are stuck with the capped p's. "
Royal, I believe you meant to say that Piers were capped by POR 7 and not P's! My understanding is the P's are not capped and are now to receive 75% with 25% going to common. I do not want to put words in your mouth but do you and others agree?
Biz, I agree that this is great news for justice and not sure how this will play out but the waterfall might see some funds. If I remember the bond holders settled for around 355 million and owed around 6.2 billion. Not sure how the settlement with bondholders was structured if they are able to collect more through fraud. JP Morgan was still taking an additional 6.9 billion at time of settlement. The bank debtholders also had around $2.4 billion in claims filed with the FDIC receivership and I am not sure how this was handled.
I agree that there is a lot of funds that might be in front of common, P's and K's but there are 16 major banks along with 2 major UK organizations that participated in the alleged fraudulent scheme. Damages will be in the high billions if proven.
Soxfan,
I agree with you 100%. Washington Mutual Litigation Trust might get some dollars from the FDIC lawsuit for fixing LIBOR. I believe we are talking a lot of damages. This news can be very big if you are holding escrow shares.
The closed banks' losses flowed directly from, among other things, the harm to competition caused by the fraud and collusion alleged in the complaint," the FDIC said in the lawsuit.
WAMPQ (aka Series R Preferreds) 939ESC992 1 $528.90
WAMKQ (aka Series K Preferreds) 9393ESC84 1 $13.22
WAMUQ (aka Common Shares) 939ESC968 1 $1.05
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ao7ke4KaAvgDdDdpUWlyZUFDUTRySHlnbW14VU1CUHc#gid=0
$5,000,000,000
Trade,
I also echo best wishes to you. You have always represented yourself as a caring person. My prays are with you and your family.
bob,
Not sure what you are saying? First P's are 4.5B and now P's are 3B to get face value. I like your numbers but don't understand how you derived them? My calculations and others are that it will take 10B to make P's whole.
$10 Billion would bring an estimated $1.79 per share to U's and would bring P's to a $1000 and K's to $24.75.
Those numbers are calculated from 1.4B U's, 3M P's and 20M K's as estimates for having given releases!
Lawrence147, Thanks for the post. It has been a while since I read this but this article reconfirms wy GS can get burnt Big-Time if this goes to trail. Settlement or orange jump suits.
Hope things happen sooner but Troy Racki comments agree with hardasset's 2014 deadline. Patience is what is important with WMIH. The main thing is not to get excited for a deal will happen soon enough.
http://seekingalpha.com/author/troy-racki/comments/symbol/wmih.pk
US to File Civil Charges Against S&P Over Ratings!
Hope LT follows suit!
Federal prosecutors intend to bring civil charges against Standard & Poor's for wrongdoing in its rating of mortgage bonds prior to the 2008 financial crisis.
Allegations against the McGraw-Hill unit will center on the model used to rate the bonds and will reportedly be made in lawsuits to be filed as soon as this week.
A move by U.S. officials would be the first federal enforcement action against a major credit rating agency over alleged illegal behavior tied to the financial crisis.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100432491
Blackstone to Become Investment Bank?
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100430369
Blackstone, one of the world's largest alternative asset managers, has quietly secured a securities underwriting licence as its expanding capital markets operation strays into investment banking territory.
Blackstone's ambitions to date are more modest. "It is just an arrow in the quiver," says one person familiar with the matter. "It is a way to serve clients in corporate restructuring or in the mergers advisory business or in the private equity portfolio. If it proves interesting, Blackstone may grow it over time."
Volume 375,812
Ask .82
Yes I meant 2030 and not 2013. Thank you
2013 I believe is when the senior notes run out and also the NOL's. Perhaps other's could share on the senior notes.
10 Billion that lenders Said to Be Near Deal Over Foreclosure Claims!
A $10 billion settlement to resolve claims of foreclosure abuses by major lenders is expected to be announced on Monday, several people with knowledge of the discussions said Sunday, after weeks of negotiations between federal regulators and 14 banks.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100357141
Crey, Thought you might be interested in this settlement.
You guys need to calm down and actually read her post before you go off on a fit. All she is saying is that “if” escrow holder’s are paid then a lot of them will probably buy more shares in WMIH, which will cause the price to raise. I agree 100% with her statement since I will be one of the escrow holder’s to do exactly that. Not worth discussing further until that event takes place. Good luck to all.
Tradeinman,
chaarles had earlier posted his estimates with post #379623, that would require 5 billion for P's to get the $500, which would be 1/2 of par. Do you disagree with these figures?
The escrows distribution:
For every 100 million:
1- Prefs (ks,ps and tps) - 75 million
Ks - 6,66 % or 5 million, 0,25 USD/share. Rounded number assuming all shares granted releases.
Ps - 40 % or 30 million, 10 USD/share. Rounded number assuming all shares granted releases.
TPS - 53,3 % or 40 million.
2- Commons - 25 million
1,4 bill granted releases, 0,0178 USD/share
Absolute priority no longer defines the relationship between preferred and common equity; sections 23.1 and 25.1 do that now. My understanding is the absolute priority did exist right up until the final hearing when TPS agreed to drop their opposition to the plan. The judge approved the language of the plan that defines the 75/25 split because there were no objections to the plan.
Chaarles on Post # of 379706
The escrows distribution:
For every 100 million:
1- Prefs (ks,ps and tps) - 75 million
Ks - 6,66 % or 5 million, 0,25 USD/share. Rounded number assuming all shares granted releases.
Ps - 40 % or 30 million, 10 USD/share. Rounded number assuming all shares granted releases.
TPS - 53,3 % or 40 million.
2- Commons - 25 million
1,4 bill granted releases, 0,0178 USD/share
Sorry about the message. It is old. For some reason it came up on my alert.
Anyway the link might come in handy for some.
Thanks
Docket #8359 : Joint Submission of the Official Committee of Equity Security Holders and JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A. Concerning the Equity Committee’s Oral Motion to Admit Designations from the Deposition of Travis Epes [Case: Washington Mutual, Inc.]
http://courtreads.com/docket-8359-joint-submission-of-the-official-committee-of-equity-security-holders-and-jpmorgan-chase-bank-n-a-concerning-the-equity-committees-oral-motion-to-admit-designations-from-the-de/
My understanding, is $29.4 million in unpaid excise taxes, penalties and interest that Oregon says Washington Mutual owes after it set up tax shelters. I don't think they will win.
If you noticed this morning the media ran down all Chinese solar stocks because of their debt ratio, like there is any difference between them and FSLR. This is such B S but propaganda does help move the market for a short term trade. There is risk in solar, just like every other type of investment but at these low levels I believe STP has a tremendous upside compared to losing $1. I added a few more shares today and will continue to do so. I do not believe STP is going BK or any other Chinese solar company within the next 12 months.
I agree that the GSF issue will be forgotten very soon. We had good news today but there was a negative article about Chinese Solar’s going BK by our market controlled paid media. Trying to stew negative news is because China Solar is undercutting other countries solar, including the US cost and our media is trying to run down China solar businesses. This will iritate the Chinese Govt. and they will support these solar companies and make them stronger thru further competition. I believe STP will benefit tremendously. Everyone needs to do their own DD work.
As I said earlier, we should close green today.