Democracy starts with you, tag your it! ...Thom Hartman
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the rock called Boardpost
What triggers COOP actually wanting, or better put...finding it neccessary to access the legacy debt collateral?
What forces COOP to ever acknowledge these assets? If they can let it sit on the back porch, and still borrow debt implicitly with folks like KKR, what is their incentive to every acknowledge it?
Thanks AZ for your efforts as always, and taking the time out to do it! The sub-tranche info is quite interesting, and I never caught that back then.
The LT is done and gone, and that is HUGE wall to collapse for us going forward.
Exciting times!
Awesome, lol.. well said!
I've been reading the Proxy pdf.....Is WAND Holding Corp - that is apparently still alive, aka KKR affiliate....acutally WMIH in a sense? By lead arrangers, who set this all up, and in reading the proxy papers today.....why is Wand Holding the recipient?
So for COOP to buyback its own shares from KKR affiliates.....a la Wand Holdings maybe?....
Are you thinking that the COOP buyback of KKR's shares, is to regain control of itself....in other words a pre-arranged event as part of the 'hide-the-sausage' shell game?
In other words, this is the first sign of WMIH/COOP realigning with legacy assets?
wild guess here, but did KKR hold too many shares, despite the BOD allowing them to exceed 5%?
Thx for posting this. I was gonna say same thing earlier, but was on the road
How can you say "WILL Continue"
when your SEC LT quote says
"COULD continue" ?
You are heinously misinterpreting the SEC filing or you have insider information to make the claim that the LT "Will continue"
Yep, This was Chapter 11. !! The right to reorganize around actual Assets > Liabilities.
The message board distraction dialogue, has been 12 years of rhetoric as if this was a Chapter 7 liquidation based solely on APR.
I can't wait for tomorrow AZ! Good riddance WMILT! What a milestone! It's gonna be great seeing those DTC markers outlive the WMILT, lol
What a painfully long haul, but at least the spent time here is like traveling through a box canyon. Eventually we all come to the end of the trail, and they have nowhere left to hide the sausage.
They are running out of time and delays. COOP is springing leaks and PPS is rising. When we hit inevitable equilibrium and those paths cross....Yowzaa! HLCE
I was just going to suggest leases. Boeing loves using this strategy. And WMI most likely leased whatever it could - branch footprints, airplanes, etc. ..., and only bought if it made sense (WMI Seattle Tower). But if I'm building an empire, buying property and owning buildings kills your cash and leverage potential up front... versus leasing, which lets you scale up incredibly fast for the same amount of seed money.
If WMI consolidated owned any property, the shell game played with leases is 2 things. To keep liability away from the parent and assets. And second, to reduce tax liability and keep profits up for the parent/shareholders with low cost leases.
The leasing sub barely scrapes by, maybe loses a bit of money here and there, and absorbs all the BS lawsuits, maintenance and such.. Just a tool for a specific job.
Imagine your selling craft espresso, and a person spills it onto themselves, and they act surprised that coffee is hot, so they sue for millions.....hehehe....The last thing a parent corporation needs or wants to deal with, is this muckety muck.
But personally, I think WMI leased way more than is generally thought, due to scaling up growth potential and as evidenced by how quick JPM could dispose of WMB footprints, as well as reading the FDIC PAA and various JPM Notices to FDIC for indemnification.
As far as the WMI tower here in downtown Seattle, it was debtor property, and unfortunately the debtor could choose to sell it for quick cash during the largest housing crash in near history,.....and they did.
I agree, the longer Alice fights windmills, the longer WMIH/COOP and all 3rd party associated groups get to play and leverage our assets for cheap, before they have to give them back.
Exactly!! They think we're stupid but we know exactly what's going on.... She can't be that bright to continue this charade while we actually lost FAR more than we could have ever gained.
If she could win (but won't), we'd have much bigger problems as the POR7 would then be moot and the BK pierced. Every creditor would jump back in... How does another 13 years sound? bobby, large,? any other cheerleaders?
As its obviously costing more than we gain, she's either in it for herself (cash me outside) or for certain creditors and debt holders, who hid the sausage in 2008 and lost to us years ago in 2012.
I take these efforts as an affront personally. She is trying to trojan horse hijack everything we fought and won...
Keep on cheerleading the dissipation of our assets. Mayb Jay Bray will spill some coffee on Alice and she can drag this out another 5 years
Quote: "Would you rather have 900 for each P share NOW? Or would you rather litigate for several years trying to get that extra 100. (Only using these numbers as an example) ?"
And said in another '3rd party' way....'Would you rather orchestrate an intentional and strategic conflict between beneficiaries, so that you WMIH/COOP can keep using their money for years while they fight over scraps? '
Cheapest money there is - to use ours who released...., versus debt or leverage borrowing - requiring paying higher interest rates and giving up more shares/preferred in exchange.
Everyone like to ride a good horse! And we are that horse
totally! Time is money, and money is money. Alice and these Quixotic court battles have cost everyone more than the value she is arguing about. It makes ZERO sense!
When you look at who stands to gain by the delays...., then it makes perfect sense.
The longer Alice drags this out for them, the longer WMIH/COOP gets to play (leverage) off of our collatoral without paying those who released.
imo, she will / is 'encouraged' to quixotically chase any avenue of delay
haha, it passes something alright : )
Exactly!
I don't think this is about a few bucks with her or Ps, this is about trying with every dying breath to overthrow the results of POR 7 and the re-org.
Minimal cost to keep appealing, but the upside is tens of $Billions if successful.
Agree. She was against having an Equity Committee in the beginning. That should indicate quite clearly whose interests she has in mind. And it isn't retail equity.... There are interests here that have been trying to overthrow POR 7, since the day they got trounced.
C'mon now.....the trustee only reports to the beneficial owner. If you released, you just own percentage of the beneficial owner.
The trustee doesn't have to notify any of the thousands of us who hold a tiny percentage interest.
Yes, 5 different separate filings
Is it possible (under Unconsolidated Sub reporting rules), That the reason it appears as disappeared, is something about the Bankruptcy process, allowed them to therefore establish $300 million as "historical cost" or "purchase price". Like setting your computer back in time.
in other words, truth in Actual numbers, is allowed to be hidden behind some beginning, meaningless, basis number derived from BK.
Payment owed to DTC tracking marker holders is a liability to a newly re-oprganized WMIH/COOP when WMIH reunites with its legacy assets - mostly due to those who released....especially, if these values are >$20B... WMIH would look bankrupt again, and would be on the OTC still.
So if they pushed these certain bankruptcy remote liabilities, legally off the current COOP books as "Unconsolidated Subsidiaries", then WMIH/COOP looks much healthier as an ongoing enterprise. (Assuming 3rd party trustees haven't disbursed 12 years accumulated interest yet, as our DTC markers are still valued at zero today.)
But what happens if the 3rd party trustees disburse those 12 years accumulated interest? It seems WMIH could keep claiming "historical cost" and playing the same shell game....
It seems we need a way to force WMIH's hand when that time arrives. Although I'd think something this crucial wouldn't have been missed by Susman et al.
And that's the rub......They don't have to report under the literal usage of the term Unconsolidated Subsidiary. You won't even see that term, because if there is value, it can be reported (hidden in plain sight) under 'historical value' or 'purchase price' within the Consolidated filing. But what if that value is at the moment...zero?
My posit, was to say the value is zero at the moment, like we see in our DTC escrow accounts, then technically there is nothing to report at all ! catch my drift? If 3rd party trustees haven't released 12 years accumulated interest yet, then what is holdup? If the 3rd party trustees just now released 12 years accumulated interest, how long can WMIH delay passing it on? One reporting quarter?
Its like WMIH has legacy who released in a Catch 22. We know its there, because we have DTC markers. But we don't know what we got or when, because the current value is stated as zero.
This is the nut shell game WMIH is playing.
My question is what can we do to escape this whirlpool we keep circling around in?
Thx! I finally sat down to read the latest 10-K filing this morning. I was struck how the word "Consolidated" was used often by both WMIH and it's auditing accounting firm, to define the degree of complete/ incompleteness of the audit and the filings.
Using consolidated so specifically, alluded that the opposite could be true as well. So I looked it up to see if Unconsolidated Subsidiarys do exist, and they do,. It's quite common.
To me, there's no reason to think that's not the hide-the-sausage game they have played amongst themselves to date...
Something to think about.... Unconsolidated Subs are used to hide liability so as not to reflect poorly on your Consolidated Books. DTC tracking marker value owed to those who released, is a future liability at some point in the future, against legacy assets returning to the old debtor after BK. And maybe WMIH/KKR is using as collatoral for Merger/Acquistions, this asset pool that largely(at the moment until disbursed) belongs to those who released. Certainly it had to have been the virtual collatoral fagainst loans for WMIH to Acquire Nationstar. SO I'd bet its still 100% being withheld for this future acquisition purpose...maybe until WMIH's balance sheet after growing Nationstar is strong enough to borrow on it own, without using any unconsolidated subs as collatoral.
Even if WMIH controls < 20% compared to legacy who released, they could be playing fast and loose with usage of it for growing COOP while they can, at our expense. If a person sells a house for $2M, that had a private mortgage note for $1.5M......that person could delay repaying that note just long enough to qualify for buying their next new home and mortgage.....so it looked like they had $2M in cash, when in fact they only had $500k.
The longer they hide it from us as an Unconsolidated subsidiary asset, the longer they get to use it. It's like free gas for the estate attorney's cars, when we the heirs haven't been told yet that what we actually inherited, is a gas station. All we got was a letter verifying inheritance rights to the estate after the specifics gets sorted out.
We just need to blow the doors open, and light a fire!
Whats interesting about those numbers is they stay nearly the same from 2007-2013. You'd think there'd be tremendous growth during those 12 years due to accumulating interest,, and yet at emergence from re-org, they report to be in the same place they started? Makes me think just enough was left in the WMI preferred managing sub to cover costs, and all the cream/profits were hidden somewhere else (another Unconsolidated Sub?)
And how'd it drop so fast from 2006? Sure the housing market was tightening up a bit, but 2006 was still red hot. For mortgage interest income to decline 500% would mean virtually every WAMU product was in default, and we know that's not true at all ! Senate hearings said less than 10% !! So where did those billions from 2006-2007 go?
Almost as if preparations were being made to be BK ready if need be. And then it was, in late 2008
haha, I figured as much!
What do you bet in 2008 the WMI Preferred managing subsidiary went to zero at bankruptcy !
I'm wondering if the WMI Preferred managing sub is considered an Unconsolidated Subsidiary since 2008. Our DTC tracking markers are worth zero at the moment in our brokerages. Zero current value x's 3000 name/place holders is still = 0.
So as an Unconsolidated Subsidiary, either "historical cost" in 2008, and/or the "purchase price" to me in 2012 WMIH Re-Org in my brokerage tracking marker, is literally Zero right now. No historical or purchase value = nothing to report to SEC legally if it's an Unconsolidated Subisidiary.
The managing WMIH subsidiary having a zero historical cost as an unconsolidated subsidiary, therefore has nothing to report on the consolidated SEC filings.. imo. zero at this moment in time, means zero to report or show anywhere. its worth 'nothing', at the time of reporting. We know its there, we see our tracking markers, they do exist....but until value replaces zero, then nothing gets reported to the SEC maybe?
Why is the value still zero; nothing? Maybe 12 years accumulated interest earnings still haven't been released yet by the 3rd party trustees? Its the only thing that makes sense.
So, what possible brainstorm issues could a third party trustee have, be worried about,.... to still legally justify and postpone releasing 12 years of accumulated interest that they have a legal and fiducial responsibility to lord over?
fdic? doubt it. Waiting till AG SCOTUS appeal window closes? could be technically speaking being used....
I realize stalling techniques are BS, but even BS lawsuits still occupy time and space in the legal system frivolous or not. And if someone's goal is to stall, why not be frivolous with our time and money? Kinda what I'd expect from these Kruel types.
Consolidated filer versus Unconsolidated filer. Learn the difference! It's what we are failing to see, IMO. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/u/unconsolidated-subsidiary.asp
Seeing how WMIH trading as COOP, and loves to SEC report and be accounting audited based on "Consolidated subsidiaries", I thought I'd read up on how "Unconsolidated Subsidiaries" can be hidden in plain sight on balance sheets and financial statements.
An Unconsolidated WMIH subsidiary, where WMIH/COOP has less than 20% or zero shareholder control..(like say where legacy who released for DTC markers own the majority), in true hide-the-sausage fashion, this "passive investment" can be hidden by recording this investment (no matter how massive it has grown to be over 12 years and counting...) under its 'historical cost' or 'purchase price'.
Unconsolidated Subsidiaries can literally be worth tens of billions of dollars right now, yet be reported on Consolidated financial statements under historical cost or purchase price.
When you look at what legacy WMI shares and DTC tracking markers are worth then and now, historical price is really nil.
WMIH trading as COOP has been able to literally sweep the entire value of legacy WMI, under the rug.
Interesting quote in PR
"The Company utilizes non-GAAP financial measures as the measures provide additional information to assist investors in understanding and assessing the Company’s and our business segments’ ongoing performance and financial results, as well as assessing our prospects for future performance. The adjusted operating financial measures facilitate a meaningful analysis and allow more accurate comparisons of our ongoing business operations because they exclude items that may not be indicative of or are unrelated to the Company’s and our business segments’ core operating performance"
All but admitting there are legacy WMI/WMIH not being accounted for.....in other words, its like their saying it'd be too complicated and confusing right now to include that info so we just leave that legacy stuff out for now, to just focus our core ongoing forward movements.
LOL
I get that.....But look a bit deeper....WMIH/COOP as an SPAC for KKR, WMIH/COOP claims interests in VIEs which are liability sheltered income earning vehicles to protect WMIH/COOP, by which that company can still use it as collateral to raise bonds or even as guarantees for future merger acquisitions.
sound familiar? How did WMIH qualify for loans to buy Nationstar? I think COOP/KKR is playing fast and loose (one more time to come) with the situation our legacy assets have been sheltered within. Time must be running out, hence the 8-k. Maybe these WMIH/COOP VIEs are going to be collateral for one last big KKR masterminded Merger/Acquistion by COOP within the next 60 days?
In a way, they are admitting some proof of life in these VIEs we knew had to always be there. Its just they aren't done using them yet.
Couple that with 382 ownership limitations (so the NOLs would no longer be in jeopardy) expiring in August 2021? I think another M/A is coming this spring
from google: SPE versus VIE. Mr Cooper Group uses GAAP if I'm not mistaken.
"SPE is a special purpose entity…under GAAP, if the SPE meets certain criteria (given below) then it is supposed to be consolidated (as opposed to before (pre-Enron) when SPEs were off balance sheet items) and the SPE is called a VIE if it would be consolidated.
VIE - co’s equity isn't enough to finance the co…OR…the investors/share holders dont make any decisions OR dont bear the risk OR dont recieve any capital gain…
ok now lets move on to IFRS (International Financial Reporting Standards)…IFRS still calls an SPE an SPE, if it meets the criteria for consolidation or not…and the criteria is - the parent gets the benefits from the SPE, parent makes the decisions, parent absorbs the risk as well as the reward and parent has residual interest in the SPE…
so its just a difference in the name as i said in their definitions… practically the same thing, and yet they’re not…"
So WMIH, now call Mr Cooper Group, says it has VIE investments on or off balance sheet. So, since we as shareholders don't make the decisions for the VIE investment trusts......because the appointed Trustees do for these various VIEs........kinda makes it sound like we are ALL still waiting on these independant 3rd party trustees under certain legal and fiduciary duties to disperse when appropriate.
Some technicality is still holding things up at the various VIE trustees, IMHO. Maybe its waiting on the WMILT last official breath for BK to really be over, over... Maybe its AG scotus appeal window period...Maybe its?
limitations to ownership: limitations to ownership protect the existence of NOLS to use against future income, and now they expect those limitations to end August 2021 ?
What can we infer by the dissapearance of those limitations?
1) that WMIH/Mr Coop is trying to run the clock out on retail until August 2021, by which they can wrest as many COOP shares from tired retail as possible going forward from September on? Seems unlikely as they can't affect DTC tracking markers in any way.
Or
2) Is a near future 'profitable' income event going to occur prior to August 2021, by which the Billions in NOLS are used up against this income event, by which said limitations to ownership are logically no longer even necessary?
Why is August 2021 the limit to 382 ownership issues?
I still think back to REIT's do have until June of any following tax year to report income with some small financial penalty. But with Billions in NOLS to use up......who cares about a few penalty bucks in a sense. If the legacy REITs report out to June 2021, then August 2021 as the end of '382 limitations to ownership', makes sense to me chronologically
What you highlighted is interesting to me, thanks. I think what needs to be defined first is who/what is "successor" and "predecessor" to really understand this.
Prior to merger, Both WMIH/legacy WMI and Nationstar had interests in securitization income. So when referencing the consolidation of financial statements, are they still just referring to Nationstar? to WMIH? to Both?
I'm away from desk, and haven't had a chance to read and absorb all this yet. On one hand, I could see this being the same old delay and usage of Nationstar's books, as a temporary cover-up for 'everything' legacy WMI......and on the other hand, I could see this quoted statement as correct for both Nationstar and WMIH reading between the lines as a double entendre.
So to me, defining the context of Predecessor and Successor in this financial statement up to 12/31/20, is the key to unlocking that door.
However, a lot has happened since 1/1/2020, and this financial statement is over 45 days old
Why does she waste her time here? + Why do hedgholes waste their time here? = She/They one and the same
That Note 6 is like Swiss Cheese. Full of holes, lol
no kidding! I've noticed that as well.
Exactly.