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Matty,
How do propose coordinating the visit? I do not get answers when I inquire about a visit.
In fact, I do not get any reply at all...
I did get a reply from www.tatffraud.com after registering.
I think the above speaks for itself.
P.S. The tatf web site is an embarrassment as there is nothing new for years. It takes little effort to take a few pictures of activities. Leads one to conclude that there are no activities to document.
Planb
MY EXPERIENCE
After Many Years of Owning Trees at TATF
Thinning - NONE (Multiple were promised)
Distributions - NONE
Responses when attempt to contact the company
via email - NONE
via phone - NONE
Faith in TATF and or the Brunners = ????
airborne (ABN) ranger (RGR) ranger vietnam (RVN) or ABNRGRRVN has over 30K trees and but he gets responses, sells at least 2 container loads of lumber, continues to PUMP TATF, and seems to have a different experience with TATF.
Anyone else out there that actually gets responses from the company?
planb
Future Tree Owners - TATF is Charity?
Now the truth comes out according to duped. Steve regards himself as an evangelist and there is no legal contract?
From duped's recent post
"I believe "investor" to be untrue as a descriptive word for the relationship TATF holds with the people who send money to TATF. After all, the support that they send to Steve is more like good people sending money to a charity. There is no legal contract binding Steve to his benefactor's genorosities.
Nonetheless, i believe Steve will repay his benefactors when he can."
That is a good question, and I do not know.
I do recognize, however, that had Steve put the agreements in Spanish it would have been harder to sell trees to Americans.
planb
The TATF Trap
It would appear that Steve has it both ways. He stresses that he is a good christian attorney and is moving out to honor our agreements, but that the agreements are, not enforceable under CR law.
If this is true, it is the ultimate scam.
planb
Duped,
I am not to worried about your pumping TATF on the boards because it is a self-discrediting action. No reasonable investor will buy into your posts so post on and bring it on, it just continues to expose the reality that TATF is mostly fluff and air.
My words will not make TATF respond to tree owners, and your words will not sucker in more investors. That is just where we are at this moment in time, Only Steve Brunner can provide relevant info and that is not going to happen until he joins the world of reality.
planb
Another board - The theme is the same, TATF is not delivering
http://tropicaltreeinvestmentforum.com/index.php?topic=3.0
What Contract?
From another board- I added the context notes [ ... ].
P.S. duped seems to be a split personality as his handle is used there as well.
planb
"The real estate law only recognizes titled ownership of land [In CR Tree Owners Have no Rights]. You are correct as to the agreement written in English as well it is not valid [In CR all contracts have to be in spanish]. I got to know the operation very well and am sure it is a scam by design, and it shows by delayed or no communication,no known payouts as advertized,false hopes and dreams.There has been serious reported crime on the farms especailly farm managers. Be very carefull here almost everyone has not recieved a dime its been over 18 years and they are still claiming payments out to investors. They dont even have plans for how and when investors will ever get their money back. The cycle will be over soon 25 years. The latest is send owners more money so they can remove them,that is not written anywhere in agreement."
TATF Record - Not one of ongoing Enterprise
Fall 2004 TON -
"As we have performed the many teak thinnings and observed the trees and their hardwoods, we have further refined our teak thinning schedule. We now project for future thinnings, that we will do the first teak thinning after the 7th growing season, the second thinning after the 10th growing season, and subsequent thinnings after the 13th, 17th and 20th growing season, and the final harvest in the 25th year."
"Raleo™ is growing strongly and clearly will be a wonderful benefit to every tree owner, both by creating greater value for the lumber from the early thinnings, and by establishing Tropical American Tree Farms as a high-end source of top quality, exquisitely beautiful tropical hardwoods."
Summer 2007 TON -
"So here is our long delayed update on all that we are doing on the farms, in the office, and at Raleo. Our goal from now on is to write more frequent, brief updates."
"We have established a core team, headed up by my younger son Jake, dedicated exclusively to developing high volume applications and markets for the young lumber from our early thinnings"
Spring 2009 TON -
"We are especially excited that we are less than a year away from the 17-year thinning of our first planting of seed-grown teak. These trees will be at an age where a significant portion of their lumber will be of a quality that can go directly into the international market without any additional value-adding other than the normal milling, grading and drying."
Summer 2010 TON -
"Not long after our last Tree Owners News we made the decision to delay further thinning during the softer hardwood market and are now genuinely excited that as soon as we can add the balance of the value adding equipment and begin full production and marketing of our value added products we will be able to resume full thinnings and distributions for all tree ages, irrespective of the hardwood market."
Web Site - Dec 3, 2010 -
"For those of you who are new to our website, a quick recap. We have devoted these last 18 months in developing value added uses for the wood from the thinnings and harvests produced by the farms..."
What WONDERFUL news will the 2011 TON bring?
I guess the good news is that the web site still exists and the bills continue to be paid for the hosting company, because all Tree Owners get is words and precious few of them..
planb
All, just what is a "Scam"?
As an example, I have some desert land to sell you cheap - most would say that land sales as this are "scams", although you do take title to land.
I do not believe that TATF is premediated or preplanned fraud, but I do believe that it has spiraled into a scam due to a variety of factors.
Just because the trees exist, does not mean that it is not a scam.
TATF's own website advertises on its projection pages that thinned lumber sells for 0.65/bd ft TODAY, yet it rots in the fields and they do not appear to sell any. They advertise that they thin young trees at 7 and 10, etc years old, yet they have not thinned any trees for some years, and mine are long overdue.
Regardless of the legal definition of a "scam" (if there is one), it sure appears that TATF has devolved into a scam.
planb
Damage due when trees not thinned-
The report below shows the growth rate of 12yr old plantation teak when it is planted at a density similar to that which TATF plants their teak and it is not thinned for the first 12 years. Growth rates are reduced. You can forget about having any teak to sell if TATF does not start thinning.
planb
http://www.mtg.unimelb.edu.au/publications/Farmers%20Forest%20Chapter%206%20Measurement%20of%20a%20teak%20forest.pdf
Value Added "Examples" - Be Careful
I have cut and pasted the section of the Summer 2010 TON below. Read it very carefully. Very little work is acknowledged, but rather it is suggested. The use of the terms "specified" or "we have begun" or "developed" occur in nearly every line item. These terms do not even make it clear that they have closed on the order or signed a contract for delivery of more than some sample items.
While this is an attempt at progress in the value added direction, it makes few, if any clear statements with regard to any bookings, or revenue from the value added operations.
If TATF had any of these, one would think that it would be clearly advertised since it would go a long way towards credibility!
Again, more mostly unsubstantiated fluff, and no specificity!
Planb
Examples of Value Adding
Being able to value add in volume will be a significant move forward for Tropical American Tree Farms. We have only just begun and as soon as we complete the added production capacity we will be able to create value for large volumes of wood from our farms. Examples of volume projects for which we have already begun production are:
*
We have begun the first deliveries for a two-year project for 5,000+ doors and hundreds of thousands of lineal feet of solid hardwood trim.
*
Another project that our hotel furnishings have been specified for is all 160 rooms of a new Holiday Inn. We have delivered the model room.
Gmelina is the specified hardwood for both of these large projects. Gmelina is increasingly specified because it takes a wide range of stains and finishes and its wood and veneer are gorgeous.
*
Another project for which we have been specified and have shipped the first items is a 200 room hotel in Europe. Teak is the specified hardwood.
*
Another is to provide all of the furnishings and decorative wood paneling and trim for the complete refurbishing of another hotel, including 100+ suites, the reception/lobby, lounge, restaurant, and bar, and the pool deck and pergola areas. Several of our hardwoods are specified including teak for the pool deck and pergolas.
*
Another exciting order developed by a very kind tree owner is for nearly 25,000 milled, dimensioned and surfaced custom teak “blanks” for a teak furniture manufacturer. This order will be completed and shipped by the end of this month.
David,
You Say-
"First of all, we can place an upper limit on the revenue of trees sold. TATF has said they have planted 2,000,000 trees (but they never said how many they sold; many were planted never to be harvested or in their own account). Anyway, the upper end of your estimated revenue was 3000 tree owners times 1000 trees each comes to 3,000,000 trees sold, which is at least 50% too high and could easily be two or more times the number of trees sold."
My response-
1) TATF told me (many years ago) that they sell about 50% of the trees and hold in their own account about 50% of the trees. This was one of the first questions that I asked during my buying process. (yes, my info is dated but I have no alternate info)
2) TATF has, over the years, mentioned "Special Buying opportunities" due to one reason or another. One of the reasons (based on my memory) has been that they have come across (or presumably purchased) already planted teak plantations. I have no idea on the size or number of trees, but do remember the events because the sales events were always for older trees that they purchased. Presumably, TATF did not plant these trees, and the 2 million number refers to trees that they planted only. Yes, you have to read everything TATF says carefully.
Quote from 2007 TON
"
* We have now planted more than 2 million tropical hardwood trees of 51 different beautiful species
* The trees we have planted to date will produce an estimated 150 to 200 million board feet of tropical hardwood lumber over the next 25 years – all tropical hardwoods that will not have been taken from the natural rainforest
* Our plantations now consist of 15 farms and nearly 14,000 acres
* We are growing beautiful tropical hardwood trees for more than 3,000 companies, trusts, individuals and foundations"
3) The 2 million number was released sometime ago (2007 TON). TATF still has continued to list trees for sale and they still list 2010 pre-planting prices on the web site today. One has to assume that they are somehow still planting (and selling), if you believe anything on the website.
4) At 14,000 acres, if just 25% of the land is dedicated to tree owner trees, 3500 acres = 1417 hectares, at 1100 trees/hectare = 1.558 million trees. Using $22/tree from my earlier post of missing funds, then this is $34 million, if 50% of the land is dedicated to plantation land, then the number doubles to $68 million. (I do think that 50% is probably too high)
So, to summarize, based on the analysis approach from this post and my other recent post, somewhere in the neighborhood of $34-$50 million of tree owners funds has been vectored off to the various pots of gold that TATF (and indirectly, the tree owners) have been chasing.
planb
If you wish to lodge a complaint regarding TATF,
One such place to possibly do so is the following link-
http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx
planb
David,
I never mentioned anything about "total costs to final harvest", but you took the time to post a summary of the costs in the article, I will build on the numbers in your post. Note, the article is dated 2006, so I will assume that the numbers are 2005 dollars.
The oldest trees (plantation teak) at TATF are approx 17 yrs old. So taking an average of the high and low costs from your post and subtracting the last 8 years of care and management costs works out to $7.77/tree. That is, less than $8/tree represents total cost to-date for the oldest trees at TATF.
In 2005, if you purchase teak from TATF (in volume of 500 or 1000 trees) you generally could not buy the trees for less than $30/tree (yes - I bought about this time and know the sales prices well from that time period).
Assuming that TATF is essentially cash poor and land rich today, that means that in, 2005 dollars, $22.00/tree has gone somewhere. At 3000+ tree owners, at 100 trees each this is 6.6 Million, and at 1000 trees each, this is 66 million (again, in 2005 dollars).
Where did it go? (Raleo, value added products, milling and storing worthless lumber, etc.) and Why will the future be any different from the past?
There are obviously some gaps in the data that I used, but others have posted on this board about the missing millions of dollars and they have been attacked. I wanted to show by approaching from another direction that they may not be that far off.
planb
TREE OWNERS - Think long before paying TATF to thin your trees.
It has been suggested that, as an option, tree owners pay TATF to thin their trees and that tree owners would all have a choice - to thin or not to thin. In practice this is, in large part, a fallacy and many such thinnings would be of limited value. The best way to explain is by example.
Many of the individual fields at the farms have very long rows. Tree owners get allocated rows of trees when they buy. At Sierpe, a row can have on the order of 100 trees in a row. A given tree owner with 100 trees that chooses to pay TATF for thinning would have his row of trees thinned, but the tree owners of the rows of trees on either side of him may choose not to give TATF any further money. Therefore, the tree owner which is paying for thinning would see limited benefit from it as the adjacent rows would not be thinned. Similarly, a tree owner with 500 trees, or roughly 5 rows, may pay for all 500 trees to be thinned, but the outside 2 rows may benefit little from the thinning.
Of course, the larger group of trees that you have, the less this feature would apply.
I would hope that the long awaited communications from TATF mentioned in an earlier posting, would address this issue.
planb
David,
I see that my assertion has support from fawtc.
You say - "Not to put words in planbtotrade's mouth, but I believe his assertion is that it was not done in order to avoid US SEC jurisdictional issues. I doubt that US SEC has jurisdiction over a Costa Rican company selling something in non-US countries. None of the countries you mentioned where TATF used intermediaries were the US."
I would say that you need to check out CAFTA. Costa Rica has recently signed CAFTA and was the last country to do so (perhaps 1-2 yrs ago - Central American Free Trade Agreement). Steve had plenty of warning that it was to be signed. With this signing this is the beginning of a significant reach back jurisdiction capability that the US will have with non-US Central American Countries regarding trade. This is also about the time that many of the things in fawtc's mentions in his posts have dissapeared.
I agree that I cannot prove a causal relationship conclusively, but the timing fits, and you cannot prove that it is not a causal relationship.
Separately,
With respect to your comparisons of F&F and TATF I still do not get the point. The article that I referenced was written in 2006 in hindsight as a case study of the F&F experience and discusses the lessons learned of teak plantations in CR.
Between looking at the article and the website of PanAmerican woods, an established, value added wood products company, you will see that they ship a max of 1 container load per day in 2006.
(the article mentions 1 container load per day in 2006 at the height of the world housing boom, the current production is likely less than that amount but that is speculation on my part due to world events)
In my opinion, this is about the maximum that TATF investors could hope for with respect to Steve's much awaited value added product business. Per the article, PanAmerican ships 30,000m3 per annum or about 12 million bd ft (30,000 X 424). So Pan American woods is roughly the size of an operation that TATF needs to build.
From the TATF website-
"Our objective is to be able to volume process all of the 4 - 6 million board feet of wood per year that the farms will produce from a full thinning and harvest schedule, as well as the approximately 4 million board feet of previously thinned young lumber, cants and logs already in inventory from the prior thinnings."
So TATF has to process about the same volume of wood that PanAmerican wood processed in 2006 to keep up with yearly production. This is not impossible, but will take years, if successful. Per the article, it took Pan American 5 years to build up to this point (each year, TATF falls further behind in care, management, and thinning).
In this case CAFTA may help TATF achieve these goals, but some have posted on this board that they have attempted to purchase lumber from TATF without success. How will TATF manage
the logistics of an enterprise the size of PanAmerican woods?
From the PanAmerican Website-
"We are currently one of the biggest FSC (Forest Stewardship Council) plantation teak wood exporter in the whole American continent, comprising over 6 thousand acres of plantation in the Costa Rican northwestern Guanacaste province."
Just the TATF Sierpe farm alone is almost this size. That means to be successful, roughly speaking, Steve has to eventually be the largest plantation teak wood exporter in the whole American continent, or something close to it. Also, PanAmerican has the advantage of being built on one large teak plantation while TATF teak farms are spread out. If you have been to CR, you realize that just getting the logs from the field (or milled cants, or milled boards) to the processing center will be a challenge.
I do acknowledge that the numbers do not add up in the comparison. Pan American woods only has 6000 acres of plantation, yet seems to ship a lot of wood annually. While TATF has more land, but predicts a lower amount of lumber to be harvested on an annual basis. It is possible that Pan American processes wood from other plantations and that much of TATF's land is not converted to plantations, but primary or secondary rainforest. In any case, it is one of the few comparisons that is available. Also, TATF has never stated that their product is flooring, it could be something else, but it is a or the logical choice.
Despite doing my best to find some retail sales pricing for PanAmerican Teak Flooring products, I could not find any on the web. If anyone can find this please post it. I did find teak flooring for 3-10 dollars/bd ft.
planb
David,
Fine, I will retract and rephrase the correction as in the below-
"TATF does not use any intermediaries for sales of teak seedlings for the likely reason that sales by an intermediate agent in the US would also be regulated by the SEC or related agencies in the US."
and
"It is likely not by chance that TATF does not have a sales agent in the US, if such an agent existed, then there would be regulation implications, and consequently, a degree of responsibility, for the projections and other business basics like communications."
THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED TO FINCA LEOLA - see the link
http://hermes.state.co.us/securities/pdf_forms/pressreleases/finca-press.pdf
David, your long comparative analysis on TATF verses F&F projections and costs are irrelevant since neither company has delivered on their projections to the majority of the investors. There is one confirmed payout by TATF to a tree owner for 13-14yr trees, but not a single other payout is known to this board for 13-14 yr trees, and not a single communication regarding the 17yr harvest is known to this board.
If you would like to address the issue as to why your comparison is relevant, I invite it, because I missed it. As always, I welcome any hard information to the contrary of my positions!
My 0.02 as always,
planb
David,
FYI, TATF has stated to me in the past that they plant 1100 trees to the hectare.
The article also states that costs are 4K to 6K/hectare where the costs include all the pruning, thinning, and care and management for the early years. Or somewhere around US $5/tree.
TATF charges quite a bit more than that, even during their sale events. So they have an additional perhaps $20/tree or more from us over the costs, and they still can not manage to care for our trees or thin them in a professional manner.
This is water under the bridge, but as mentioned before, TATF should have placed the care and management funds in escrow so that they would be there when needed. Instead, TATF has squandered it on Raleo and other unknown things. You have to admit that even if you facter in other things like paying for Land that is not reforested with plantation trees, that there should still be something left.
The only possible explanation for Steve not attempting to explain any of this is because he has no palatable explanation (to tree owners) that does not raise many questions regarding his responsible management of the funds.
If he wants to continue selling trees he should address all of the above, and start escrow accounts.
planb
David,
You point out the below and more-
"TATF has not used the same projections as FLOR Y FAUNA, it has not charged the same price for seedlings, it has not used the same harvesting schedule (20 years vs. 25 years), nor has it been structured with intermediary marketing companies implying verified and reasonable projections, so it is simply not reasonable to apply the conclusion of the report against FLOR Y FAUNA to TATF."
I would point out that TATF does not use any intermediaries for sales of teak seedlings for the exact reason that sales by an intermediate agent in the US would also be regulated by the SEC or related agencies in the US. This is evident by similar issues raised by Finca Leola sales in the US. The Colorado State SEC agency (do not recall the exact name of the agency) shut down the sales of Finca Leola trees via an intermediary in the state. Also, coincidentaly, at about this time, Finca Leola stopped posting here, and stopped selling trees on their web site. It would appear that they have off loaded all sales to ethical forestry in the UK where sales of such items are not currently regulated.
It is not by chance that TATF does not have a sales agent in the US, if such an agent existed, then there would be regulation implications, and consequently, a degree of responsibility, for the projections and other business basics like communications.
planb
All perspective CR Teak plantation investors should review the following information if they have not previously done so. It is a good summary of the business model, costs, and prospect. Each may compare it to your experience with TATF.
http://www.nibo-nv.com/pages/press/persbericht-apr2006.html
planb
matty,
My trip was further in the past than yours, but my experience was that they did a few things-
1) cut the underbrush
2) tied up he trees that were leaning over or blown over,
3) The TATF employee that guided us to the trees, actually pruned or trimmed the trees with his machete the trees while we looked at our trees.
All three of which help the young trees.
planb
schaef,
Your sports and leaking ship comparisons are all off base and do not apply here. Like I said before, they are all cases where you can be an active part of the solution, which is not the case here. You keep telling stories that have no relevance. It appears that TATF will not let you trim your own trees, therefore you have no active role to play in the TATF solution. You will not even be active to the degree of visiting your trees, totally passive, except to get personal with me.
You talk a great story but still have not identified anything that could be done other than controlling the phrasing of the posts on the board. There is nothing that can be achieved other than controlling the board because TATF will not cooperate or listen or is not in a position to cooperate (i.e. perhaps bankrupt)
Get you priorities straight-
If you (or we) are eating dog food in retirement, it is not because of my posts or anyone else's post here on the forum. It will be, in part, because YOU (We) made the decision to invest with TATF.
As an aside-
One benefit of visiting your trees, at least for some with younger trees, is that TATF used to trim the trees before your arrival, depending on the age of the tree. Thus, if you would get off of your keyboard and visit your trees, TATF would potentially do some care and management before your arrival. It seems to be the only way to get the trees trimmed.
planb
schaef,
When I visited CR and TATF (I have posted this before) to see my trees, I was not even shown one of the lots of trees and the lot that I saw had plenty of issues. The TATF office was not even sure what trees I owned-as I had to specify the details pre-trip (field, rows, etc). This was years ago, before this forum.
How would you feel if you coordinated the trip through TATF and did everything that was expected of you and you were not shown all of your trees? (Steve and an employee went out and took pictures of my trees many months later and sent them to me).
My fundamental question to you is - Given that there is no or very little information coming from TATF, at what point do you acknowledge or accept your investment loss? Do you visit your trees to try to obtain some information, or do you place a lot of words on this forum debating the type of information that is useful?
The reality is that even if Steve is successful with the value added products this time, it will be many years before most tree owners see any returns. AB trumpeted the 17yr harvests, but we have heard nothing. How many more years of no communications are you willing to overlook before you turn negative?
planb
schaef,
So in sports you have some control over the results by continuing to participate, besides, you are on the field, what else is there to do? Yes, I used to play some sports as well. In TATF, you only have faith in Steve (apparently you do) and no control, except to give TATF more of your money.
So what are your solutions besides to stop with posts that reiterate the points of failure (a cover up is no solution)?
Have you visited your trees? Have you researched teak plantation prices, teak products? Have you met or talked with Steve? Have you seen TATF facilities? Have you any forestry reports of your trees? Have you seen all the wood rotting in the fields in CR? Have you seen solar kilns filled to the top with young lumber that apparently cannot be sold? These are the actions of someone actively continuing to play the second half of a game on the field or the pragmatist.
Or do you just continue to ask those of us that have done some or all of the above to not post negatives here (Speaking of Don Quixote)
Our investment with TATF is now a lottery ticket.
You say--
"I am being pragmatic in this way: the money I invested is too much for me to lose easily. It costs me nothing to continue reading and posting, and I will keep up to date with any events at TATF and the experience of others....."
Good luck with that strategy. You want to keep up with our experiences from visiting our trees, yet you actually do or say or contribute little except to debate a lot of existentialistic things.
Like I have recommended to Jan, go see your trees, and then compare them to other plantations, the website, and your expectations. The neglect in care and management is obvious on many of the farms. There is no substitute for on site, eyes on trees. If you do not have lumber from your trees, nothing else matters - that is a pragmatist point of view that I have repeated many times in posts here.
planb
schaef,
You say -- your the pragmatist here and we are the idealists.
I would argue QUITE THE OPPOSITE. I am the pragmatist, you are the idealist. It is clear to me that little will ever come of my TATF trees in the form of monetary return, and possibly little in the form of lumber. You are the idealist, you think that there is a way to "fix" the situation or make the best of it, that is an idealist. Sometimes there just are no fixes and you move on, that is a pragmatist.
Steve keeps chasing high margin, high end products. Whatever the new value added process turns out to be, if it is not a high volume reasonably priced commodity, it will fail in today's economic climate. More Raleo yacht furniture will not help anyone out here.
planb
schaef,
I acknowledge that soft values have an impact. I do not believe that I have said anything to the contrary. TATF is not a public company so many of previously said things are not pertinent. Steve may continue to pump resources into TATF, but the TATF business model of the past 17yrs has already failed. Just look at the last 17 yrs verses the projections. It is clear to many of us.
I will not have my investment held hostage over me to stay quiet and hope and pray in silence and ignorance (without communication from TATF). That is essentially what you and TATF are asking. You are endorsing perpetuating the myth by drawing in other tree owners to support the model.
I fail to understand how the Brunners expect to sell trees when they shut the door on communications to existing tree owners. This should be MADE CLEAR TO PERSPECTIVE TREE OWNERS before they join our cult.
All that I have been asking for in regards to TATF is that they treat tree owners respectfully in the sense that they communicate to us as a group, and not just oiling the squeaky wheel. I have volunteered to make this communication confidential before via a non-disclosure agreement. Frank, open communication is all that I request, for positive, neutral, or negative news.
planb
schaef,
TATF will succeed or fail based on hard values, not soft values. Soft values, feelings, percieved values, etc. have only short term influences. Hard values will win out in the end all the time. A ponzi scam artist is still a ponzi scam artist, no matter how polite he is when he takes your money.
The stock that goes from 200 to 20 will eventually go back to 200 or to 0 based on the hard value of the business model.
My words on this forum do not change the viability of the TATF business model. We are all seeing the viability of it unfold.
planb
Jan,
I agree that we are all in a bad situation. I just do not see any way to begin to improve it until Steve communicates with us.
Hope to see you on the board at some point in the future. It is not my intention to drive you away.
regards,
planb
Jan,
You say-
"However, Homo sapiens is a social species. Social interactions are not always easy. In my job I have a collegue who I see five times a day in the hall, the stairs, the bathroom, you name it. She can not say “bonjour”, so I don't say bonjour either. If she were to ask me for a favor tomorrow, do you think I will say : “Sure, no problem, I'd love to that”, of course not".
Jan, If your collegue gave you a large sum of money for your business venture, you would not respond to inquiries?
I am an Engineer as well with a job to do that gets harder every year. I do not answer the phone with a long courteous greeting or say hello to all that I pass in the hall just to say hello with no other conversation. It is a waste of my time. However, when anyone approaches regarding the profession I am all ears. Perhaps Steve feels a similar way toward tree owners, but he has taken it all to an extreme and does not communicate to the tree owners and that makes him a poor business man. The reason that he does not communicate is simple, he has no positive news.
TATF is failing, Raleo is failing, why will the new value added product business be any different? I am not predicting, I am asking. The formula is staying the same - Only Steve makes the decisions, it is all shrouded in secrets, and he thinks that there is a conspiracy out there to get him. He makes it clear that he created the business model, and only he makes the decisions. Therefore, only he is responsible for the success or failure of the business.
For all I know. the new value added business was/is to sell teak products to Europe. With the Euro declining, any market in Europe is now worth less than it once was. In fact, the equipment that he just purchased from Europe now costs much less than when he purchased it due to the euro decline. Yes, he is off to a dubious start.
My comments on this board do not affect TATF. It will thrive or fail regardless of my comments.
Many board members overlook the fact that if your trees do not produce lumber, then nothing else matters. Again, visit your trees, CR, and TATF. Then, if you can be positive. it will be based on firsthand knowledge, and not faith or hope or desperation.
planb
Jan,
Ditto on your comment-
"Trust is gone between the tree owners and Steve."
However, with regards to your comment on character assassination, Steve has done it to himself. He has made too many promises and not followed through on any of them to date. In many cases, it costs only a few minutes of his time to post communications on the website and he does not respect his tree owner partners enough to do that.
-Has anyone received word of the audit results?
-Has anyone received word of recent thinning activity?
-Has anyone been able to purchase lumber from TATF?
-What about the 17yr teak harvests?
-Does anyone have any details of the value added products? You cannot sell them if you do not communicate to your market. If TATF purchased equipment, they should have the idea defined.
Need I continue? All indications to-date are that there is still no enterprise activity. Does anyone have any info to the contrary that they would like to share?
planb
jschwarz,
I do have a few pictures, but they are archived away and it would take a bit to find them. I do plan on visiting again in the next year or so and will take many, many pictures to share.
planb
Jan,
Your milk may be spoiled already and you simply do not know it. You should go see your milk. Again, I suggest that you take a trip and look at your trees. I have seen mine. They are souring with out any care and management.
planb
Justc,
Could you please note the farm name of your teak that is for sale?
I must admit, that if it adds diversification for me I might be interested as well. Also, is it $10.00/existing tree and your status of thinning, if known.
If you wish, send me a private email on the board.
planb
I would hope that any communication from Steve on this or similar issues address the following-
1) Is the lumber from the early thinnings marketable at any price or not? Current projections still show that it is marketable and that a profit can be had after thinning costs.
2)Can we thin our own trees and if not, why not? Also, can we have TATF just cut the trees and leave them lie or gice them to the employees.
3) A 1 million dollar advance on thinnings that are worthless is a 1 million dollar loss. It is 1 million dollars poorly invested and lost or mostly lost. How do we know that funds sent to TATF for the thinnigs will actually be allocated for the thinnings - given all the outstanding TATF debt?. Also, how do we know that Steve will not skim a management fee from the thinnings to help offset TATF costs elsewhere?
planb
Response from Steve
I have tried to talk to and with Steve, but I have found it impossible to engage in a real discussion. It may be me, too brutal in posing questions perhaps, it may be Steve, not willing to engage in a discussion. I just want to transmit to you his last e-mail to me. I wish you all the best. I will attempt to stay away from the board, but that may be harder than I would like to; it remains the only source of information on TATF, however poor it may be.
Jan
Steve's mail:
Dear Jan,
Thank you very much for all of your time and thought and your effort.
Please tell the board that I have responded to each of your recent e-mails and questions and that I have written that we will be reporting to all tree owners who have trees that are ready to be thinned with the suggested number of trees to thin, that we have already advanced more than $1 million of our own funds in harvest and processing costs on tree owners’ behalf to thin and process their trees and cannot advance any more, and allow each tree owner to decide for themselves if they want to provide the funds to thin and process some or all of the suggested number of trees, or if they prefer to allow some or all of the suggested thin trees to continue to grow, that the harvest and processing costs are just that, costs, not a price to be negotiated. The harvest and processing costs are shown in our on-line projections but will soon be modified somewhat as we update our projections, and to save our tree owners’ time, we will include for each tree owner an estimate of their harvest and processing costs for each group of their trees should they choose to have them thinned.
I had not intended that the above be private.
Thank you very much for your kind wishes.
We wish you the very same.
Thank you again.
Warmly,
Steve
Snap - I must admit that I modified the saying from "Opinions" to "Ideas" a few years ago for personal use in another context but it works here. I was actually in town last week, but will not be back for a while so our beer will have to wait for at least 6 months.
Back to TATF. Steve is no spring chicken and one has to wonder how long he can keep up the 1 man show. One can continue to chase things like Raleo and the promised high volume value added products, or one can sell the lumber for market value.
It is rather ironic, TATF keeps chasing the big payout, if they would just thin, mill, and sell the lumber for market value it would be difficult to be critical even if the 7 yr thinnings produced a net of $7/tree or 0.30/bd ft I would accept it as TATF would be holding up their end of the agreement.
I get the feeling we are all in this predicament because A) we bought trees (A bad decision made on our behalf), and B) Steve won't admit that he has made some bad decisions and sending $7/tree to investors would be as much as an admission.
The other possibility is that perhaps Steve cannot even net a positive amount after thinning costs, this seems more likely the case. If that is the case, then he should say so and discuss the options, but all that we have is silence.
Planb
Planb - I do not necessarily disagree with your message and think you are probably right. Unfortunately for tree owners, if actions really do speak louder than words, then your points are certainly very valid.
It was Teddy Roosevelt who said:
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."
Interesting, the last time I heard ideas are like a**h****, I was in land far far away (from North America) where English is spoken with a twist but a more common version is "opinions are like a**h****, everyone has one and they all stink" because it is the man making things happen that counts - ergo the above quote.
Trust me when I tell you that I really feel and understand your frustration. While Jan may or may not be successful, he is attempting to get into the "arena" so I still vote that we give him our support to at least try. This is significant for reasons I have already delineated. Even if he is not successful, their is definetely something to be gained (by all) from his attempt.
Thanks much for your input! It is always refreshing and keeps our expectations grounded when we hear from the more experienced here this board. The next time you are in town, stop by the puzzle palace and have a beer (on me). :)
There have been may ideas floated here in the recent weeks, some of mine included.
But we have a saying around here - "Ideas are like assholes, everybody has them". It is execution that separates the men from the children.
TATF is the only entity that can act on any idea, and Steve only acts on his Ideas. TATF has our trees hostage and we have little recourse.
My prediction is that Steve will not entertain any of these ideas, because he has his ideas and his ideas are the only ones that count. Treeowners do not have rights. All of the board's ideas would require recourse and accountability, thus, Steve and TATF will not accept them.
It is likely too late anyway for there is no indication that TATF is an ongoing enterprise. It takes so little effort to update the website to document the ongoing activity and build credibility, unless there is no activity, then it is difficult. The website is all years old except for the efforts to sell additional trees...
All the optimism in the world does not change the TATF track record. At this point, TATF would appear to be 1 couple with considerable mostly mortgage free forested/plantation land holdings, considerable additional debts, and no other indications of an enterprise.
If anyone has been there in the last year, seen Raleo in action, or seen thinnings in action, seen any other enterprise action, then please correct me.
planb
snap, I second this!!
kkurtz,
Welcome to the board. You finish up your first post with the following-
"I still think this is a good investment especially as we get closer to the final harvests. I don't know what the answers are, but I am sure this blog is not accomplishing anything positive. Like Matt and Jan, I hope this blog soon becomes positive so some good can come of it. I think as a group you have to decide what you want to accomplish on the blog. Once you have decided, then go about solving the problems in a positive manner. If you don't, it won't matter how well the trees are growing at age 20 or 25 because all of us will have lost everything."
I strongly disagree that this board has not accomplished anything positive. Accurate information is always a positive thing. While there is much on the board that may not be accurate, much of it is accurate.
Raleo went bust regardless of this board. Raleo went bust because the wrong market was targeted at the wrong time. The world economy crashed regardless of this board. Teak prices bottomed out regardless of this board. 25 year old teak trees are currently not worth much regardless of this board.
TATF has made it clear that they do not want or do not value suggestions from the board. This board just made the problems at TATF public and open. It is always in our interest as tree owners to be informed by multiple sources, and not just TATF as they have not provided all the material information.
planb
schaef,
Your point is well taken; however, for the case of buying back trees 10 years later at half the price and reselling them as a "Special Opportunity" there are added benefits to this approach for TATF.
For example, should they buy back the trees at 1/2 price from unsatisfied owners, they could include a clause that they not discuss their experiences with TATF. Much of the negative press would disappear, unhappy tree owners would terminate their relationship with TATF on an improved basis, and TATF would make money by reselling the trees!
Seems like it is a win win case for everybody, should there actually be a market for the trees. In fact, TATF could list tree owners' trees on their site as part of the special opportunity and take 40% as commission. At this point, many tree owners would be happy with 60% back.
There are many possibilities along these lines, but they all are dependent on having a market for the trees....
planb