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WAMU and Covered Bonds:
Washington Mutual (WAMU) was a major U.S. savings and loan association that faced financial difficulties during the 2008 financial crisis.
While WAMU did issue covered bonds, the specific details of the Euro-denominated covered bonds you mentioned are not readily available in the sources I found.
It’s important to note that covered bonds are typically backed by a specific pool of assets (such as mortgages) and are issued by financial institutions. They are considered safer than other types of bonds due to the dual recourse feature (both the issuer and the cover pool back the bonds).
If WAMU had outstanding Euro covered bonds issued by a nonaffiliated statutory trust, these bonds would likely have been separate from WAMU’s bankruptcy proceedings. However, without specific details, I cannot provide a definitive answer.
Chapter 11 Bankruptcy:
WAMU filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in September 2008, which was one of the largest bank failures in U.S. history.
During bankruptcy proceedings, different classes of creditors (including bondholders) are treated differently based on the priority of claims.
Covered bonds, being secured debt, may have been excluded from the bankruptcy process if they were issued by a separate trust and backed by specific assets.
COOP will continue to buy-back under priced shares UNTIL it announces a dividend, and then the share price will shoot up. That is why they are repurchasing these shares. After the dividend is announced and the share price is greatly increased, then there is a chance that more shares will be reissued. We will see.
Or maybe, COOP knows how much our shares are undervalued, so they just buy all the shares they can afford, and all the other shares go up in value.
It could be that COOP has NO plans to redistribute the shares. That could definitely be what they are doing. And when and if COOP decides to have a regular quarterly dividend, then all of these shares go way way up in value. I don't see COOP ever redistributing these shares. They are permanently retired.
Thanks for all of your responses. We need to see both sides of the story.
Thank you Ron for the Libor Link.
Who May Participate In The Distribution of The Net Settlement Fund? In order to participate in the distribution of the Net Settlement Fund, you must be an Eligible Claimant. That is, you must be a member of the Settlement Class who timely submits a properly verified, adequately supported and otherwise valid proof of claim showing that such member of the Settlement Class transacted in Eurodollar futures or options during the Settlement Class Period. If you are not an Eligible Claimant, you will not receive any payment from the Net Settlement Fund
I don't believe I qualify as a Member of this Settlement Class. During the Settlement Class Period, I did NOT have transactions in Futures or Options.
Probably disqualifies almost all of us from getting a distribution.
What say you??
Pick.......Banks and Brokerages can send a couple of small amounts to an account to verify it's accuracy. They would notify the account holder first, and let them know that 2 small deposits are going to be made. They want the account holder to verify the amounts, and then they are usually deleted. They are never going to be for one penny, and there is always going to be 2 different small amounts, under $1. It's insane to believe that this one penny interest transfer is a precursor to Billions of Dollars coming out of no where into our accounts. Insane.
Lodas, AZ, anyone.........Per the FDIC website, the Receivership Balance as of Sep30, 2023 is $14.8 Billion of liabilities. In other words, the FDIC says that WAMU still owes them $14.8 Billion. IF, Libor settles and earmarks more than a $14.8 Billion payment to FDIC, would any of the extra money go back to the old WAMU shareholders? Of course, we wouldn't get any money until everyone ahead of us gets paid back first. What if FDIC ends up getting $20 Billion just from WAMU Libor claims.........is there any scenerio where the old WAMU Preferreds, and Commons will see money trickling down to US????? Any way???
Hopefully AZ will step up and answer this key question.
I enjoy reading posts by both Lodas and AZ, and would like to see more back and forth discussions, from both sides.
In December 2017, the DC Circuit Court ruled that the FDIC (Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation) cannot seize beneficiary ownership of trusts. The case was won by Deutsche Bank Trust Company. As a result, the FDIC was compelled to return $600 million of JPMorgan Chase’s down payment for Washington Mutual Bank (WMB). The income generated from all the Mortgage-Backed Securities (MBS) trusts, which amounted to an impressive $8 billion in profit in 2007, rightfully belonged to the beneficiaries of those trusts. This legal decision clarified the rights and protections of trust beneficiaries in the context of FDIC-insured banks
Indeed, the old shareholders of Washington Mutual (WAMU) stock are indeed considered the beneficiaries of those trusts. However, it’s essential to understand the nuances of the situation:
Trust Beneficiaries:
The income generated from the Mortgage-Backed Securities (MBS) trusts rightfully belongs to the beneficiaries of those trusts.
In this context, the old shareholders of WAMU stock are indeed beneficiaries because they indirectly hold an interest in the MBS trusts through their ownership of WAMU stock.
Chapter 11 Bankruptcy:
Chapter 11 bankruptcy is a reorganization process that allows a company to continue operating while restructuring its debts.
During Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceedings, the company (in this case, WAMU) aims to reorganize its financial affairs and emerge as a viable entity.
The bankruptcy court oversees the process, and creditors (including trust beneficiaries) have a say in the reorganization plan.
Distribution of Assets:
The distribution of assets during bankruptcy depends on the specific circumstances and the court’s decisions.
Generally, secured creditors (such as bondholders) receive priority in asset distribution.
Unsecured creditors (including trust beneficiaries) may receive payments based on the available assets after secured creditors are satisfied.
Shareholders (including old shareholders of WAMU stock) are typically last in line for distributions.
Timing of Payments:
The timing of payments to trust beneficiaries depends on the bankruptcy process.
It’s possible that some distributions may occur before the Chapter 11 bankruptcy is finalized, especially if there are available funds.
However, bankruptcy proceedings can be lengthy, and beneficiaries may need to be patient.
Legal Complexity:
Bankruptcy cases involve complex legal proceedings, negotiations, and court decisions.
The specifics of how trust beneficiaries will be compensated depend on the court’s rulings, the company’s financial situation, and the reorganization plan.
In summary, while trust beneficiaries (including old WAMU shareholders) have a rightful claim to income from the MBS trusts, the bankruptcy process introduces legal complexities. It’s advisable to consult legal experts or monitor official bankruptcy updates for accurate information regarding distributions and payments during the Chapter 11 proceedings .
28 U.S.C. § 1715 - Notifications to Appropriate Federal and State Officials:
This section outlines the requirements for notifying relevant federal and state officials when a proposed settlement of a class action is filed in court.
The term “appropriate Federal official” refers to either the Attorney General of the United States or, in cases involving certain financial institutions, the person responsible for regulatory or supervisory matters related to the defendant.
Similarly, the “appropriate State official” is the individual in the state who holds primary regulatory or supervisory responsibility for the defendant or who licenses or authorizes the defendant to conduct business in the state.
The notice must include various components, such as copies of the complaint, details about scheduled judicial hearings, information on class members’ rights to request exclusion, proposed or final class action settlements, and any agreements between class counsel and defendants
You can believe in anything you wish. Yes, this BK is not actually closed by the FDIC yet.
However......IF IF IF, as you say, JPM is going to pay old WAMU Shareholders some cash to close out the BK, it does NOT have to raise money by selling long term or short term bonds. JPM has currently $900 BILLION in Cash. It does NOT have to sell Bonds to pay us.
So everything Royal is posting is total BS.
What the Safe Harbor Covers:
The safe harbor applies to:
Settlement Payments: Payments made to settle securities or commodity contracts.
Transfer Orders: Transfers related to a transfer order.
Termination Payments: Payments for terminating or liquidating securities contracts or commodity contracts.
Margin Payments: Payments tied to margin or collateral for these contracts.
Hiding Assets:
Companies cannot use Safe Harbor accounts to hide assets.
Attempting to conceal assets from the bankruptcy court is not permissible.
If a debtor intentionally hides assets, they risk losing the discharge (the order wiping out qualifying
debt) and remaining liable for the debts they sought to eliminate in bankruptcy.
Just read AZ post, but it was just deleted. I wanted to tell him that I was able to understand what he was saying. Instead of cryptic partial sentences, AZ has actually written complete sentences and it is more readable. As soon as I read it though, it was deleted!!!!! What happened?
Why am I here:
1. This is a COOP board, and not an old WAMU Crying Investor Group
2. I own a large amount of COOP Shares
3. I sign on here to discuss COOP performance
4. I signed Releases and received COOP Shares in return
Why are you here??? Do you own COOP Stock?
What the Safe Harbor Covers:
The safe harbor applies to:
Settlement Payments: Payments made to settle securities or commodity contracts.
Transfer Orders: Transfers related to a transfer order.
Termination Payments: Payments for terminating or liquidating securities contracts or commodity contracts.
Margin Payments: Payments tied to margin or collateral for these contracts.
Hiding Assets:
Companies cannot use Safe Harbor accounts to hide assets.
Attempting to conceal assets from the bankruptcy court is not permissible.
If a debtor intentionally hides assets, they risk losing the discharge (the order wiping out qualifying
debt) and remaining liable for the debts they sought to eliminate in bankruptcy.
This board has been taken over by delusional posters and uninformed investors. They are now fighting over whether it's 25 or 75%, K vs P vs Common theories, & discussing tax implications of receiving Millions of $$$ into their accounts!!! There is ZERO proof of anything coming back to old WAMU shareholders, but that is not stopping them from arguing about who gets the most money & which luxury items they buy first!!! Every Visa card offer that they receive is now interpreted to mean they are on some kind of list of upcoming Billionaires!!! Haha. It is comical to see investors acting like they are getting Billions of $$$ after 15 years of nothing with ZERO documentation or proof. Wow. Even COOP going up and down with the market is interpreted as some kind of sign that money is coming. It is bizarre. I am hoping the FDIC will close this case quickly and one day this board will be COOP only.
You are taking out your anger on the wrong people. Lodas is posting very good documentation, and is asking real questions. Instead of trashing fellow Investorshub COOP posters, why not start attacking the ones who are really responsible for your loss.
Try contacting Killinger, Rosen, JPM, FDIC, Congress, Judge Walrath, and all the other crooks who stole WAMU shareholder value.
Killinger was highly compensated, while driving WAMU prices down to about $0.04 per share, rejecting JPM's bid for $8.00 a share.
While CEO of Washington Mutual in 2007, Killinger earned a total compensation of $14,364,883.
In 2008, he took home $25.1 million in compensation.
Killinger received a $15.3 million severance payment in Sept 2008 as well as a $445,200 lump-sum payment for vacation benefits & a $300,669 special payment.
I am here because I own a lot of COOP stock. I also signed releases. Just because I have to see documentation and real proof, you now question me?
The real question is WHY are you here??
But you really don't get it Bob. Just because we were unfairly sacrificed in 2008 and many on here are angry. That does not mean that anything more will be ever be coming back to us. Sorry for me, and everyone. Your own personal opinion doesn't mean anything WITHOUT documentation!!! If Billions were coming back, everyone would hear, read, and talk about it. Nothing is going on.............
Ban Bob Forever!!!!!!!!
This post has NOTHING to do with WAMU, cancelled escrows, or Libor. NOTHING.
Reiko- I agree with you on the statement "Those who signed their release(s) became eligible to receive a distribution, per the GSA, and were also given the right to receive any potential future litigation proceeds."
However, it looks like since Class 18 was not made whole, they will receive all the 'future litigation proceeds' BEFORE Class 19 and 21 see any additional compensation. There could be something from Libor, but wouldn't Class 18 take it all ??
Please explain
You are correct. But I say it for myself too. I had a large amount of WAMU before the FDIC Midnight Raid, but fortunately I was able to buy more cheap shares.
But I have only made money as COOP has increased from $40 to $78. That is where I have done well.
But the saddest part of your post, is that you are responding to a Spam Advertisement!!!! WOW.
And, IF IF IF there is any kind of $$$ coming back to the estate, it will ALL go to impaired Class 18, and there will be nothing left for 19 and above.
If anyone on this board feels that this is unfair and unreasonable, you should file a claim with the FDIC:
FDIC as Receiver of Washington Mutual Bank
1601 Bryan Street, Suite 1410
Dallas, TX 75201-3479
Attention: Claims Agent
(888) 206-4662
Just trying to get the facts and understand how everyone is thinking here............
So we had JPM paying $1.9 Billion to the FDIC in 2008, and taking over ownership of WAMU.
But you are saying that somehow they left $800 Billion on the table .
And now old Equity Shareholders can just walk in 15++ Years later, declare ownership. and become Millionaires?
I find it interesting. BK Vultures usually eat 99.999% of the Carcass.
Of the 4 items I mentioned that are driving the exuberance of getting paid more money, I believe that there is a combined ZERO % chance of any large amounts of money coming back to old WAMU equity. Maybe 2 years ago I held a 1% chance, but today that is a big fat ZERO. It's been too long, and all the crooks have stolen all the assets. The only way former shareholders of WAMU are going to get more compensation is if Congress gets involved, and that is NOT going to happen. Nice to see COOP taking off. Hope this run helps out with all those old WAMU shareholders who lost big money in the FDIC raid.
Vodka..........there are 4 reasons for the exuberance.
1. LIBOR Settlement coming to an end with potential $$$
2. FDIC finally closing the BK Books and $$$ will be returned.
3. Safe Harbor/Hidden Assets Theories
4. COOP being forced to issue new shares to WAMU Old equity.
If you put someone on ignor, what happens when your ignored poster posts something, then one of your friends comments on it in a reply post, then you will only see your friends post & know nothing about what he is responding to? Is that a problem?
I have blocked no one on this Board. So, when I sign on, I see everyone's post. Many on this Board, especially the believers in major cash coming back for their cancelled WAMU shares, have blocked everyone who have a different opinion than them. So when these believers sign onto this Board, they only see posts that support their own beliefs and theories. Therefore, they believe what they read every day, even more and more, because that is all they see. It's like only watching Fox News, and never CNN. You don't get a balanced, realistic view of the situation.
This is a dangerous thing to do, on any Board. I personally want to see everyone's posts, because I want opinions/facts from both sides of the aisle. Unfortunately, the ONLY way to have one board to discuss 2 different Stocks, is for WAMU believers to block COOP followers. I suppose COOP followers are also blocking WAMU posters too. Crazy..............2 separate topics being discussed on 1 board.
Good question. I would guess that InvestorsHub has a policy that cancelled shares or companies that are currently NOT trading, cannot have a board here. WAMU is no longer traded and is not relevant to this board. COOP deserves a board that discusses COOP, and not about a 15 year old stock that nobody owns. So, I guess that is why we are currently sharing this COOP Board with hundreds of disgruntled, cancelled, former shareholders of WAMU.
Lodas- The posting on this board is greater than 90% done by pre-BK WAMU shareholders who were greatly impacted when the FDIC decided to take over on that fateful Thursday night in 2008. They are angry about what the government, JPM, FDIC, and Lawyers did to steal their money. Yes, original shareholders were eventually given WMIH/COOP shares as compensation, but it was not a fair & reasonable amount. In a BK, former shareholders are only compensated in a minority of the BK's......less than 10%. I was also a pre-BK shareholder, but I had averaged down and bought more shares weeks before the takeover by the FDIC. Many people on this board were holding large amounts of WAMU stock and their average costs were greater than $30. It is hard to recover from that loss, and the crumbs given to us did not compensate enough unless you bought more BK shares, held these for years, and rode COOP from $6 to $75, selling options the whole way........like you and others.
I wish InvestorsHub would separate this board into 2 parts......COOP and old WAMU. However, I don't think they will because WAMU is not even a valid symbol and is not traded anymore. Leaving this as ONE board is causing all of these problems. It's funny how the believers in Billions coming back, are constantly accusing anyone who doesn't believe in this fantasy as paid posters or bots. This makes me think that InvestorsHub is happy with all the volume on this board, and there is no incentive to change it. So we continue to have a COOP board with 10 times as many posts as it would normally have. Can you imagine the crickets on this board IF these old WAMU dreamers had a different place to vent? We all would be better off.
WMI Holdings, Inc. (WMIHC) is a holding company that emerged from the bankruptcy of Washington Mutual, Inc. (WMI) in 2012. According to the web search results, the assets that are controlled and owned by WMIHC are:
WM Mortgage Reinsurance Company, Inc. (WMMRC), a subsidiary that provides reinsurance for mortgage insurance policies.
WMI Investment Corp. (WMIIC), a subsidiary that has no assets or liabilities.
A net operating loss carryforward of approximately $6 billion as of March 31, 2013, which can be used to offset future taxable income.
Cash and cash equivalents of $423.2 million as of March 31, 2013.
500,000,000 authorized shares of common stock and 5,000,000 authorized shares of preferred stock, with a par value of $0.00001 per share.
This is a COOP board!!!!!!!! That is why Lodas, myself, and many others sign on here........to read and talk about COOP.......Mr. Cooper.
I have a lot of COOP shares (because I signed Releases) that I obtained from my WAMU Preferred Shares. I was a holder of WAMU Stock before the fateful Thursday in 2008.
We sign on here to discuss COOP, and 90% of the discussion is hysteria about getting paid Billions. The story has been going on for 15 years.......................... Used to be "secret envelopes of assets", then it was "Safe Harbor", then we were going to get money from "BOP and the lawsuit", then we were going to "get New Shares", then we were "waiting for the Hedges to get money", now we're waiting for the "LIBOR" and then we will be waiting for the "BK to Officially Close"....and when this doesn't happen, then it will be something else.......
We are tired of hearing about it. This is a COOP Board.
And the higher it goes, the further it will fall. What a great way for the Hedges to take over the game......drive it up, then short it down, buy back, and repeat.
One possible example of such a scenario is the case of Enron Corporation, a former energy company that filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in 2001. Enron had created hundreds of special purpose entities (SPEs) and trusts to hide its debts and losses from its financial statements, and to transfer assets and liabilities to off-balance sheet entities. Some of these entities were controlled by Enron’s executives and shareholders, who received large payments and stock options from them. After Enron’s bankruptcy, some of these entities were investigated and sued by creditors, regulators, and shareholders, who claimed that they were fraudulent and illegal. However, some of these entities were able to avoid litigation and keep their assets, which were later distributed to their shareholders. For example, LJM Cayman LP, an SPE managed by Enron’s chief financial officer, Andrew Fastow, had received over $40 million from Enron in exchange for taking over some of its troubled assets. After Enron’s bankruptcy, LJM Cayman LP was able to sell some of these assets and return $13 million to its investors, who included Enron employees and executives.
The Tangible Book Value of JPM is $204 Billion. So cancelled WAMU Shareholders are expecting to get $300 Billion from JPM??? Haha.
It's the most important document/agreement that you have, supporting the idea that more money is coming to old shareholders. I would think you would be happy to repost. I have been reading most of your posts over the years , but cannot recall ever seeing an 'agreement' that JPM has signed stating that they will pay more later on, before the BK is finalized.
Ron- Please post details of this Memorandum that you mention in your post............
"The OTS and WMI had a Memorandum of Understanding that the two banks, WMB and WMBfsb would shore each other up as needed."