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Has any investor gotten any information about their trees from TATF? When surveyed a few months ago the entire investor sampling - 100% - reported they had not. These investments appear to be dead. The owner of the tree farms, the man who sold the trees, for two years now refuses to answer any of the owners' repeated questions about the status of their trees. Mr. Brunner's silence is ominous.
Reasons to keep this forum active: It is the only voice for the betrayed investors in TATF. Without it the only thing the world would know about this company is what is presented on its website. Our experience presents a radically different picture. TATF trees are sold to buyers under false pretenses. The forum keeps intact a growing base for eventually initiating legal action - the only apparent hope left for regaining some portion of the original investments.
When enough investors discover this forum then agreement on seeking a legal representative with each of us contributing a modest amount to get started will come about. This may take another year or two. My guess is that beyond our hundred participants there are another several hundred investors who read the postings, with more locating the forum each month. For this to remain viable we must continue to regularly post experiences, information, and ideas.
belmontx
Do we own trees that actually exist? fawtsc, the points you made in this post are compelling. The increasing doubt investors have not only about the health and growth of their trees but their very existence should by now have caused Mr. Brunner to issue a clarification. He keeps up with these posts, you have described an easy way for him to allay doubts, yet he doesn't do it.
Why doesn't he? He can't do it if he has sold more trees than he has planted. Visiting our trees doesn't prove that they aren't owned by others, as well. This would explain his company's silence the past two years and indicate the magnitude of the deception.
belmontx
I think you miss the point. Our "hot air" expressions, as you call them, are not primarily to express frustration, they serve two important purposes: 1)to warn off other innocent potential investors so that they don't suffer the same fate as present tree owners, and 2)to continue to exert unrelenting pressure on Mr. Brunner to start doing the right thing by his present investors.
The second point is probably the only chance we have of seeing any kind of a return on our investment in our lifetime. It is becoming known (see fawtsc's posts) that the legal system isn't going to work without years of effort and large expenses; it is also increasingly clear of the failure of of the just-wait approach in hopes that thinnings, processing, sale of lumber, then payment of distributions will happen. As for resigning to only receiving payments at final harvest, do you have an extra 20-30 years?
Brunner knows that as soon as he starts informing the board of exactly what is going on with his maintenance of our trees, farm-by-farm, species-by-species, and age-of-tree by age-of-tree the discussion here on the Hub will become collaborative rather than damaging. That he doesn't do that speaks volumes as to what is actually going on with TATF.
The entries on this forum have had considerable impact already, they must not end. Can you imagine our individual contacts with TATF over its non-performance if this board had never happened? (Remember what they were like before you found this.) Each of us would have exactly the same knowledge of the status of our trees as we have now but we would not have any awareness whatsoever of the experience of any of the other investors. We wouldn't know that apparently no one save for ab, happiesttreeowner and lawyerfromohio (relatives or old friends) has received any returns whatsoever for any of his trees, dating back as far as trees planted in 1993. Because of the board we know what the state of this company is, and we possibly can have some positive influence on gaining returns from our investments.
This is not to say that we shouldn't encourage ideas encouraging our own collaborative efforts as Jan and Snap have proposed. I just don't think we should stop our active interchanges on this board. In and of themseves, they have great potential value for our cause. And I certainly don't agree with the suggestion we "just write the whole thing off" if we don't redirect our energies to other people's ideas.
belmontx
A splash of cold water --
For all who might feel relieved to read Steve's message to Jan and think that this is some form of progress I would advise you to go back to sbrunner's posts during February and March of 2008. These were two years ago and he was consistently sounding a similar optimistic tone - in this case that thinnings and distributions were just around the corner.
It's what this man does that counts, not what he says, and he so far appears to have done nothing to maintain our trees since 2006. As all of us know from falling for his writings on the TATF website and purchasing trees from him, he is a skillful promoter who knows how to persuade people with his words. His tactic continues to be to reassure and delay. Our experience with him through countless emails years back confirmed this. In our case what he continually said was going to happen never was concluded.
Also, take note that the vital questions matty and planb raised a couple of posts back will remain unanswered by this man.
At this point it would serve Mr. Brunner's interests for him, through an intermediary, to be able to sooth the Hub forum with his generalities about the status of investors' trees, rather than provide transparency and answer specific questions.
belmontx
This TATF investment has become turned upside down for investors. If one reads the promotions and tables on its website you get the idea that you buy trees and a slow but sure income stream will come your way until the big payoff at the end. It is that stream that attracted most of the current investors -- an investment that pays distributions before you cash it out, even showing in the thinning tables that they would get several times their entire investment back by the 14-year thinning. But we are learning the bitter fact that the money stream is to go the other way. The investors are to send more money to TATF for each thinning with no assurance of any kind that the thinning will result in sales and distributions.
This may not have started out purposefully to be a scam, but Mr. Brunner's behavior, or lack of same, is making it seem awfully close to one now.
belmontx
Regrettably, investors learned this after purchasing trees. This was the bait that succeeding in selling the trees. Now any willingness to finance tree thinning would be motivated more by protecting the wellbeing of the trees than on the intermediate distributions which were so important to those who sent TATF their money. This really is the crux of the problem -- inaccurate or false advertising leading to investors believing they were betrayed.
belmontx
The cost of thinning was not included in the purchase price of investors' trees but, rather, it was to be deducted from the proceeds of each thinning so that no out-of-pocket cost was to be incurred by the investor. Because the company is apparently not proceeding with the thinning necessary for the health of the purchased trees the present proposal by Jan is that, with proper safeguards, we advance this cost to TATF so as to get the thinning initiated. (In effect, this would not be a repayment as I stated in my last post).
Two problems with this approach are evident: how to ensure that the funds would be used solely for thinning of the participating investors' trees; and, as you pointed out, how to determine the actual costs for this work
belmontx
I agree with every thing you said. TATF does not appear to be undertaking a deliberate effort to cheat its longstanding investors. Luring in new ones with glowing and effusive descriptions of success on their website is another matter, however.
It would seem that this company is an organization which may be slowly falling apart and we on this board don't know why. Blaming it on the board is like shooting the messenger. All we know for sure is that the health, maintenance and ownership of our trees are at great risk. Recent board discussion has included ways in which tree owners might take an active role in maintaining their trees.
As to grongron50's post, agreed, repaying for thinnings promised as part of the original investment but still not done does sound kind of crazy doesn't it? But how else are we going to get it done?
belmontx
Ab, why do you keep posing on this forum as a normal investor in TATF? Or is this post your way of admitting your participation in the management of the company?
Readers have seen Jan's last post to you on Feb. 27 as well as Chuly Washy's post today, Mar. 1, which reflects the plight of all the other investors. Many others in the past have questioned the unique nature of your relationship to the company.
belmontx
The TON ab refers to is almost a year old. What he so confidently speaks of is:
"Audit: We have asked Hans and team to conduct an exhaustive audit of all of the trees on our farms, to confirm both their quantities and quality. It is an arduous process because of the large number of trees and extensive areas of the farms and, considering the amount of work they have in addition to this audit, will likely take the rest of the year to complete."
Like virtually all of the forecasts on the TATF website this one did not come true. The "rest of the year" ended two months ago. Some might say the TON, in general, which tree owners waited three years for, is mostly crafted puffery.
belmontx
Somehow Iogic tells me that fawtsc's doubts are more compelling than your confidence, matty
Each participant in this forum could well imagine himself sitting in Steve Brunner's chair as he reads these daily posts. (He tells Jan he doesn't, but he also said thinnings would occur at 7,13, etc. years). As such consider this:
Visualize the main topic of this forum as a slowly spreading wildfire (suspicion of company negligence or connivery with fear of investor financial loss) which threatens to engulf us all. It developed slowly over the past two years and now is accelerating. There is one person (the owner) who all along could immediately slow its progress, if not put it out. That person stands back and lets it gather force instead of extinquishing it with truthful information about the status of his investors' trees.
Why would he not do such a simple thing to ameliorate such a huge and painful problem for so many people who believed in his enterprise? There can be only one answer to this.
belmontx
For all of the understanding explanations about what we guess to be Mr. Brunner's dilemma posted lately, how do you who post such caveats (while, admittedly, profering constructive suggestions) reconcile them with his continuing website promotions (see the latest "Whats New" on TATF, as well as his spreadsheet projections for teak)? These enthusiastic and upbeat descriptions of his tree farms and the extensive and periodic rewards which will likely come from those who invest in the trees he sells are virtually identical to the promotions which successfully parted us from our money 5,10 and 15 years ago.
In other words, doesn't the disconnect between what Mr. Brunner says to prospective investors on the TATF website and the reality that actual investors have experienced with TATF say something about the likelihood of negotiating successfully and in good faith with this man?
As to Jan's learning that the owner doesn't read the Hub anymore, I would guess that between intel from ab or kevin, plus the occasional peek on his computer, our comments are not being ignored.
belmontx
Along with Just, I'm in. Your Spanish song convinced me. E-mail to follow.
belmontx
Since Mr. Brunner reads our posts regularly he no doubt is reading these proposals of yours as you post them. Because of that, it would seem to me you would be able to reach him immediately via phone or his email, tree1@tatf.com. Get some encouragement from him, then ask us these questions. They would have real meaning and could start a breakthrough.
belmontx
TATF is a one-man show. I agree with your last post, justcfrall.
I would like to maintain an open mind on this forum, able to give serious consideration to the good ideas which have been presented recently, but it is difficult to see TATF at this point as anything but an investor black hole, no matter what we do. The recent suggestions on this forum have been constructive. Like all the rest of you, more than anything, I would like to see some return on our family investments in this company, however much and whenever.
But here's the thing. TATF is a one-man show. There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that the owner, Steve Brunner is an active reader/participant on this forum. As such he reads every post. He is fully aware of the thoughts, reactions, anguish, creative ideas and proposals we have been expressing. This has been going on in its present form for six months. We have said many times (and he has read us saying it) that he can reduce the barrage of criticism whenever he wants to by simply emailing his investors and telling them the status of, and maintenance schedule for, their particular trees, right now, and telling them that he will continue to keep them notified; and by updating in honest detail the TATF website and resuming posts here, using his own sbrunner handle, to give us the truth of the trimming schedules, the state of Raleo, and the current condition of his operation. However, he doesn't take any kind of action in response -- no posts, no emails, no realistic additions to his website news. He remains silent, except second-hand in the form of occasional op-ed pieces bylined as ab, fjonas, lawyerfromohio, or happiesttreeowner. This tells us what we need to know about the usefulness of trying to negotiate with him.
Our views are transparent through these public posts. TATF is not. Mr. Brunner has complete control of that. His silence is deafening. That silence is his answer to any and all of the ideas cited here.
belmontx
With our newcomers to the board there seems to be a trend emerging towards mollifying the Bruners in any way we can so as to perhaps create a spirit of all of us working together to help them out of the dire financial straits we imagine them to be in. New posters have mentioned the "angry and frustrated" remarks we have put up here with the implication that we may have alienated ourselves from the company. Further, there is the assumption that they mean well, they have fallen on hard times, victims of the economic cycle, victims of some intemperate remarks posted on this website which have cut down on their sales of trees, etc.
As a long time member of this forum and as one of the most critical of TATF I would ask the recent posters to look for "angry and frustrated" postings. Frustrated, maybe, but the messages on this board have been uniformly reasoned and to the point. There haven't been any vicious or unfair statements that I am aware of during the two active years of this forum.
Several points are needed for perspective here:
1- It is doubtful the Brunners are poor. They have a severe cash-flow problem, likely. Their land assets are huge, no matter what the fluctuations in the teak market. They may choose to live in modest dwellings but they are land tycoons.
2- Morality is an overlooked issue to those who are urging more understanding here. The Brunners clinched many of their sales on the basis of their fundamental goodness and spiritual qualities. This was featured in the website promotions and in the face to face interactions they had with those buyers who traveled to their farms prior to purchase, as we did. What has happened the past two years is a moral failure on their part. The cutting off of response and communications with those who sent them tens of thousands of dollars is a breach of faith, no matter what their difficulties are. Recent new posters on this board treat Steve's silence as more of a reticence than what it is, an ominous escape from a moral commitment to those who trusted him. At this point his veracity is very much a question. He has tried to use clever lawyerly phases on his website news so he cannot be nailed directly for whoppers.
3- Before direct communications with Steve broke down his tactic the past two years was to delay and indicate that thinnings, reports, distributions, etc. were just ahead, just ahead, and then later just ahead. The strategies being proposed now, insofar as they involve urging collaborative work with him, would fit well into his delay, delay tactic. Like committee work. The idea that our remarks are choking off the new funds the owner needs in order to put our investment trees back on track for maintenance is fanciful thinking. Those new funds would probably be used to pay social security funds past due to the CR government.
I am more pessimistic than most but my efforts with him date back further than many and I deduced some time ago that his good intentions have morphed into a major defensive operation to cover business failures. I am not a member of his circle of friends who originally bought trees from him and have, separately and only, received some original distributions from him. If this stalemate can last indefinitely we will all give up and fade away. I don't intend to give up and I don't intend to fade away. The pressure this board has put on the owner gives us our best chance of eventually gaining some return on our investments, If not, we are forming a large enough base to use legal means.
belmontx
based upon your experience w/ TATF
Be interested in any perspectives on post # 1791, including the analogy with the auto dealer ads, ab. Also be sure to include your analysis of the resell vs firstsell comparison.
belmontx
If this is your way of responding to Jan's detailed and powerful last post to you, it is typical of your contributions -- avoiding the issues raised and papering over valid criticisms which poke through the facade by giving yet another copy of the company spin you started with on this forum. Jan's honest attempt to have you establish your credibility failed because you would not answer his points and thereby authenticate your identity and truthfulness. Doing so would have done more for your company than anything you could do otherwise. Not doing so confirms that you are other than what you proclaim.
Just posting another replication of the TATF website spin over and over again instead of responding to questions makes it clear that you are not, as you would have us believe, another typical investor caught up in this unfortunate scheme.
belmontx
Good and thoughtful post, but your final line almost negates the whole message -- "great company"," grownups trashing each other". The latter must refer to the contributions from the surrogates of Mr. Brunner and our responses to their statements.
I appreciate the spirit of your involvement in these discussions, Jan, however I think your portrayal of this dispute as a squabbling among equally aggreived and suffering parties is wrong. It is, in fact, a protest against a wealthy entrepreneur who has victimized (intentionally or by neglect) a large number of investors who bought into his idea of an environmentally friendly purchase of tropical trees. Whatever hardships TATF is currently experiencing have nothing to do with investor behavior and everything to do with its failures. Little of the room for compromise is with the buyers, most all is with the owner who, through incompetence or malice, has ignored his responsibilities.
I agree that we must try to find a way to gain redress, and that the way forward is not helped by name-calling. However, the expectation that Mr. Brunner, or ab, is going to respond to our offers is not promising. He has already shown, for three years now, that we cannot believe what he says.
Thanks for trying , though, and don't give up your participation in this forum. Many of the things you have written have been helpful.
belmontx
This message seems to have little to do with the content of Mattyo's post. Perhaps you should reread it and issue him an apology. I don't know anyone on the board who has been more conciliatory and has worked harder on this venue to achieve positive and constructive outcomes between investors and TATF than matt. Your admonishing post to him is misdirected and makes me wonder about the motivations for your sudden and intense involvement on this board.
This is not trashing but you likely will consider it as such.
belmontx
TATF has our money; we don't have their money. The company owes us reports, information and distributions from thinnings; not the other way around. If you/Steve have to sell land to accomplish this, do so, rather than asking us to give you/him more capital.
Again, the planet we are from seems to inform our comments on this forum.
belmontx
so far you have admitted you twist the truth
Here is what justcfrall actually said in his post #1703 which you misrepresented:
"Ab- The damage that has been done is by TATFs to many of us investors that are very numerous now. For over 10 years lies to us about how likely distributions will happen, . Lies about how good all our trees are progressing (way below normal) .Pitifull in many cases. Violations in honoring the contract (thinnings, sellings, distributions) Fact. A disregard for the investors. Poor communication if any. In your opinion we all on board should except this in silence . TATFs is years behind their scheduled contractual agreements with investors ,this board and complaints did not begin until many years after these violations. We all deserve a refund or honoring of the agreement. We gave our money in good faith . Is this an investment at all? Not really so far . This board is the only way we investors can share real facts with one another ,you call this trashing. I would be carefull about accusing us of trashing, disredit, damage.I suggest you re-read the forum postings and change your accusations. It is true the facts are ugly and they are coming out.Normally businessmen will honor their contracts to investors and strive to profit for them. With TATFs only timely communication would be a miracle! Example to help you reason (I know you cant) - When a bully in school steals my money or lunch time and time again and I am to small to defend myself against him and his friends I go to other victims ,the principle ,and the guards to watch and witness the crime. When the bully gets caught I get my money back and he leaves me and others alone. In my opinion TATF is the bully and I/we are the small ones. You are the only one who has had a happy camper experience with TATFs even though you hav'nt visited the farms in ,many years 10 or 12? You have not even seen the trees on about half the farms. But I guess your trees are growing nicely, and by the way your writing style is nearly exactly the same as Mr. Brunners."
Would you care to rewrite any of his other sentences in order to add more smoke to the smokescreen you use to obscure the sad reality of what TATF investments have become?
belmontx
Sending TATF more money - You have to be joking.
When we sent you our hard-earned money we were told that we were purchasing your seedlings or clones and this included their care and maintenance. In turn we were to receive periodic thinning distributions until final harvest. These trees were sold to us with your's/Brunner's projection that these distributions would more than cover the purchase price by the 14th year. Well, we know this didn't work out.
Nowhere in our wildest dreams did we think that, instead of receiving these distributions, we would be asked to subsidize TATF for the maintenance of our trees by buying more trees and urging others to do same ... or loaning TATF the money! Get real.
Since you are so close to the operation I strongly suggest that you have individual status reports sent to each of the investors -- reports which specify what, exactly, is happening to their trees. More than anything else,the lack of this information is what makes TATF more and more seem like it has become a scam.
And, by the way, include gps coordinates for each investor's trees when you send them this report.
belmontx
Good luck with that!
We've all helped Steve raise plenty of cash in the past -- 30 million?-- and now you want to help him raise more? Give us a break.
He reads this board daily, and posts often, so I don't exactly think you are going to surprise him when you contact him with this sweetheart of a plan.
I know the investor who wants to sell his ron-ron trees, and some of the rest of us would like to sell our TATF trees to you if you are serious. As far as finding his message, they are all available by going back. Look for justcfrall's postings. While doing that try reading the older messages to see how this whole discussion has become as critical of Tropical American Tree Farms as it now is.
belmontx
Mr. Veenstra, Credit to you for such a cogent and generous assessment of the predicament which brought this forum into being. However, several problems arise from our accepting your premise that we should start working together with TATF to make our investments more viable.
1- Your suggestions represent a positive approach based on rational steps to be taken by honorable people. However, reviewing the disconnect between his projections and subsequent proclamations with the fate of his investors -- the integrity of the owner is in serious question. He continues to post almost the same kind of misleading information and tables on his website in order to attract new tree buyers. Again and again his Tree Owner's News and his postings on this board revise or ignore earlier statements he has made regarding thinning schedules, Raleo's development, etc. In spite of their repeated and earnest efforts to communicate with him he will not provide investors any accurate information about the status or maintenance of their trees, thinning schedules, or current market conditions for their trees.
2- By urging investors to start building up rather than tearing down TATF on this forum in order to help the company attract new buyers we, in fact, would become complicit in causing others to become possible victims of this, at best, failing business plan. It this did result in a few payments to investors does the name Ponzi have any significance here? This forum has saved many potential investors from making the same mistakes we have made and it is more likely than not increased from zero the possibility that some return to us will eventually occur.
3- In extending such sympathy to Mr. Brunner you ignore, or are not aware of, the vast real estate holdings this man has amassed in Costa Rica during the past 25 years. His land has appreciated in value and currently is worth a fortune in the opinion of a Costa Rican government official. Because of this there is no reason that the owner of TATF could not, by selling off a fraction of his land could, at the very least, refund his investors their original purchase price for trees that now, according to the owner's own estimates would be worth several times what he had sold them for.
Most of us would agree that TATF did not start out as a black hole for investors, but that is what it is fast becoming and our extending further patience and investment would not change that. Whether this situation has developed as a result of incompetence by the owner or from duplicity is not known. If we had to choose I think we would rather be a victim of the former than the latter, but what difference does it make?
Constructive efforts on this board are most likely to be in the form of finding legal remedies in the Costa Rican judicial system.
belmontx
Since you are the designated hitter for TATF we investors know that you know the answers to fawt's questions. That you don't answer them indicates how sorry the facts really are. Your pretenses only further weaken the credibility of this company.
belmontx
Maybe these latest posts will liberate those reluctant reader-investors who have not yet spoken out, either out of fear of owner Steve Brunner's threats posted on this forum under his various aliases, or from the belief that doing so would further damage investment return prospects. It may not have started out this way but Tropical American Tree Farms is becoming a train-wreck for those who trusted their investments to it.
Collective response has begun. Read Treeowner's post #1062 from May 25 of this year.
belmontx
4Rtrees -- Your experience verifies what many of us have suspected this past year. The TATF operation is likely all but defunct. The TATF office and phones seem to be open only to potential new investors, not those who have already sent them their money.
As many of us have been posting all along, TATF's website and TON statements are not to be trusted and its owner's credibiltiy is suspect, to say the least. What kind of a person would pose as an investor and write all the posts he has put on this board and have them attributed to five different pen names? The possible mendacity involved in this is astonishing. No real investor has reported any good experiences with this company.
As useful as this forum has been in bringing together the investors in TATF it has also inadventantly served as a sounding board for Mr. Brunner's spin and evasions. Just by allowing "Ab" to give boilerplate responses to authentic investors has diluted the debate. The owner's purpose all along seems to be to hold off the investors as long as he can and get them to keep waiting until their trees are ever older fostering our hope that someday we will get a return on our investments.
The forum must stay alive and active. There are no doubt many more investors who haven't located us and are wondering what happened to their trees. Most are probably put off by the hopeful generalities of the website and of the kind that Ab kept offering here. If they don't get gnarly with their questions they settle for that. May they find out what is really happening by tuning in on this board. Eventually the sheer numbers of us will form a force for recovery of our money -- see treeowners earlier posts.
TATF today - 4Rtrees's post #1657 says it all
Thanks for this information, Justcfrall. It is good to know there may be some promising legal recourse available through Costa Rican courts if things continue to be as bad for TATF investors as they seem to be. There are enough investors tuned in to this forum that considerable heft can be brought to bear if this company continues to blatantly ignore its commitments to us.
Without this forum and informed members like you who share information we would be completely in the dark about TATF's operations. We would assume that we are the only ones being ignored by this company, receiving no reports, no returns and no answers to our inquiries. With this forum we know that the same thing is happening to virtually all the others, no matter how large their investment.
belmontx
inadvertent duplication
Good points, Matty, the person's posts are more suspicious everytime he returns to the forum. I suspect that the owner/representative, ab, doesn't tell us what was thinned, where, and when because then we, who in many cases own the same what, where and when, could ask why we didn't also receive the reports/distributions.
Those specifics i.e. which year tree, when thinned, when lumber sold, etc. are the very things which have always been missing from ab's, and his predecessors on this forum, remarks. They are the specifics which were always missing from Steve's emails to us, back when he was replying to our inquiries. If your training was in law and your experience has been in real estate and offshore investment sales this is the desired form of promotion, even when it is in the guise of informed communication. With the key specifics always missing the seller can never be tripped up in an outright lie.
Notwithstanding all of his tree owner sketches ab includes, the fishing trips to CR, drives around the country, et.al., he has a special relationship to Steve Brunner that none of the rest of us have -- and that is a generous interpretation. He speaks for Steve and Sherry, not for us. Because of this we investors can only trust the information we are able to glean from the other credible investors on this forum. We cannot rely in any way on the stuff that ab and his predessors type as posts. They are not crebible sources; they do not represent our interests; to the contrary, they are representing the fading corporate credibility of TATF.
Think about it. If there were any shred of responsibilty to its investors left in TATF why would not they respond to recent emails mentioned in posts by forum members like josephp and scbuk in order for the company to clear the air and defend itself. In ignoring these chances to clear his company' behavior the owner's silence speaks volumes.
Since the age of your teak trees are the same as ab's, have you received the same reports and financial returns that he claims to have gotten from those trees; trees which were sold to you and maintained for your benefit by Tropical American Tree Farms?
In ab's post 1622 he says:
On almost all our Teak Trees, early on we had elected to use the projected proceeds as credits ($2.51 teak, $2.05 native) to purchase additional Teak Trees.
For the balance, we have have received cash proceeds from the first thinnings and some from the second combined thin/harvest--when I sold the lumber.
belmontx
Ab, you're back and you're still spinning -- shouting at us something about Equity Trust in order to get our attention, much like the tv commercial's increased audio volume.
Now you say the next thinning will be likely in 18 months. In your post 1112 on July 9 you told us:
THINNING FACTS
To date, we have received specific, written thinning reports dated the following:
5/16/01
8/25/04
11/28/06
Further, we expect to receive another set of thinning reports yet this calendar year
Since that calendar year ended three weeks ago and no reports of any kind were sent to any investor it seems those THINNING FACTS are the same kinds of facts and forecasts we get whenever we read the TATF website or the earlier communications from Mr. Brunner. No one else on this board seems to have gotten the same results nor can predict what's going to happen.
I know you can't resist countering every observation critical of your company which is made on this board but it really doesn't do us much good when the 'facts' are company boilerplate. Anyone who thinks they are going to get aforesaid thinning report during the next 18 months -- good luck.
belmontx
No one has reported visiting their office or factory. Several have reported visits to what is marked as their trees and have had varying reactions -- none particularly positve, several disappointed because of poor soil, stunted growth, overgrown brush or steep elevation, some of which I observed on my visit several years ago. No visitor has reported any visible activity by TATF on the farms in recent years.
According to their promotions they are under an obligation to trim and maintain the trees they sell to investors. Whether or not there is anything we can do about it is another matter (see fawtsc's last post). Without this board none of us would know what is going on and would be completely helpless; with the board we are gathering a sizable group of tree owners who eventually can band together for redress if it becomes necessary (see "treeowner" post #1062, May 25).
Finally, as for not receiving responses from TATF, welcome to the club. Their email eagerness is supreme when they are luring a prospect for purchases, it changes radically after the money is sent their way. Most on the board have reported failure in trying to get meaningful information from them either by email or telephone.
It can't be emphasized enough that the single most sobering finding we have gained from the three years of this board is that no credible poster on it has reported any financial return from his investment in TATF, no matter how old his trees nor how long he has owned them.
It is important that we be as accurate as possible in describing what we have learned so far on this board. We're all trying to help you out here, scbuk. Forum member matty0 stated that "We have had a number of individuals that have come on this forum that have said they've recieved distributions, but none were independently verified."
Let me attempt to qualify that assessment. The bunker mode that TATF has assumed the past two years minimizes communication to investors except by the five or six pen names likely used by their management on this forum. The report of distributions paid which matty0 refers to comes solely from the statements of those stand-ins. For clarification see post #1458 which refers to abnrgrrvn's first defection from this forum (later he came back, only to resign again a few days ago).
Aside from these people (person) no one of the over 1600 posts has reported receiving anything from their investment,
some of which include trees as old as 1993 plantings.
I realize you are no longer posting under the abnr handle but I would guess that you are still reading until you rejoin us in another form. You said a few days ago that we might find Raleo products at DCOTA in Miami. You said, "they have Raleo' pieces on display in showrooms--possibly Columbus and Miami (DCOTA) and L.A"..
This aroused my local interest so I checked with DCOTA Design House and and was told this product was no longer carried in any of their showrooms. Looking further in the area, I found no evidence of Raleo anywhere else. If not sold in Miami, the American interlink address for TATF and Raleo, one wonders about Chicago or L.A. I have noticed that the Raleo story is no longer featured in promotions for purchases of teak trees at Tropical American Tree Farms.
belmontx
Click on "surveys" at the center near-top of post listing page, then click on "view results". You will see that none of respondents received reports.
You are, beyond a doubt, the least critical of TATF of anyone who regularly posts here. Almost all of the others, to one degree or another, are clearly unhappy and contentious. Your voice has always seemed to be the one that remains positive about this company and questions its representative in a fair and open way. The fact that this angers them is baffling unless one considers their reaction to be just another evasive tactic which keeps investors from knowing what is really going one.
For two years now this board has been the only way for investors to communicate with TATF. I'm quite sure Mr. Brunner reads it regularly and he or his spokesperson is always on board to defend it against our statements. Their office answerers and email attempts offer only generalities, if anything. I don't know what the moderator will tell you - we don't hear much from him anymore - but if comments like yours are out of line this forum is useless and serves no purpose. That would make TATF very happy and be a loss for investors.
As many posters have said here for a long time, Mr. Brunner could make this whole problem go away if he would just start to post up-to-date,honest and specific information about the trees he has sold to people and are under his stewardship, and to keep individual investors informed as to the status of their trees.
ab, you are a happy camper amonst all us naysayers