Register for free to join our community of investors and share your ideas. You will also get access to streaming quotes, interactive charts, trades, portfolio, live options flow and more tools.
Register for free to join our community of investors and share your ideas. You will also get access to streaming quotes, interactive charts, trades, portfolio, live options flow and more tools.
Another tree owner is attempting to contact others in order to get concerted and cooperative action underway in order to eventually recover investment funds. Several of these efforts have been made during the past three years; this is the latest, and is worth your attention. Contact me at jstanton5@gmail.com to be included on the list of interested tree owners and put in touch with the initiator.
belmontx
Still no news of any TATF activity on behalf of its tree-owners.
I have 40 correspondents who have bought trees during the past 20 years and none for the past several years have reported any notice of maintenance of their specific trees by the company.
I will post here if I am told of anything being done, tree-owner on site visits made (last we heard they were not permissible), or any word being communicated.
belmontx
A Costa Rican newspaper exposes the TATF operation. Click on this link to read the article in the Tico Times, one of the country's major newspapers and the main English speaking one: http://www.ticotimes.net/Current-Edition/Top-Story/Investors-Where-s-our-money-_Friday-May-18-2012
Since abner doesn't care to reveal the details of his "distribution", let me help.
From my list of information-sharers only one correspondent has reported being notified by TATF of the rain damage to his trees. He ultimately received slightly less than two/thirds of his original purchase price for 100 '96 teak trees; after culls and lost trees he was paid for the wood from 41 and was given 2K in return for his ownership papers for all the original 100. He has not viewed the site so has no way of knowing how accurate the report was.
At any rate, two thirds as a refund in exchange for ownership is way better than the nothing it seems everybody else has been getting for their unaffected trees (although this amount is 1/10th of the advertised value after 16 years).
If anyone else ever receives this offer, jump on it. Sixty-fjve cents on the dollar for TATF trees bought ten years ago and thought to be a sour investment turns out to be a godsend for those who never thought they would ever see a penny back from their purchase price.
belmontx
Go to the http://tatffraud.com/ website to consider joining with other tree-buyers who are seeking response and redress from TATF. The previous belmont post is mine. It said the same thing, but this is to clarify that it was from me. The referenced website has been established by an owner of TATF trees.
Also there is another site which will enable you to view TATF's advertisements and projections each year from 1999 forward so you can document what you were told before you bought your trees. I received this from one of my correspondents:
"Today I went to the TATF website to look at the projections and see about how much I should have made by now (none of which I have received of course). I noticed the projections that are on the website today are not the same ones that were there when I made my investments (they are lower now). I found a website that has archives of a lot of websites going all the way back to the 90's, including the TATF. If anyone wants to see what exactly was on the TATF website in the past they can do the following:
1.) Copy and paste all of the following into your browser: http://wayback.archive.org/web/*/http://www.tropicalhardwoods.com
2.) Select the year you want to view at the top, then click the specific day highlighted in blue (not all days are available, usually only one or two per month)
I figure this might be helpful to the other tree owners since it may have been several years since they placed their orders and could help jog their memories if they want to see exactly what it was that was promised when they placed their orders.".
My email is jstanton5@gmail.com. It continues to be a tree owner's clearing house for up to date factual information about TATF. You cannot obtain it from the company which only seems to communicate with prospective, not existing, tree owners.
belmontx
Does it matter what these prices are vis-a-vis people who bought TATF trees? They can't access their trees, get no response to their requests for status, cannot locate the TATF office nor owner of the farms.
This is an example of a current report I received from one of the tree-owners who was in the area, trying to get information to report to others:
"Nothing to report from CR, because nothing is happening. As you have stated contacting the company is impossible, the farms are not being maintained, many are not readily assessable from the paved highways, even if one knew the exact location. The company debt at the Caja seguro social remains unchanged. The people I talked to in the Quepos area didn't even know of the farms, so the employment at the farms is not significant to the local economy. It appears the teak boom of the ninety's has evolved into the teak bust of the new 21st century, having little influence for the local population. There is no local market for juvenile teak of a scale that could provide hope for investors, if they could get their teak down off the mountain to market, which they can't. Sorry there isn't better news, or any news."
belmontx
Restore this board to it's non=premium status, please
No visits possible to TATF, so far as we can tell. From my network of TATF tree-owners, seven have reported unsuccessful attempts to set up visits to their trees. Two have actually traveled to CR anyway, and then were not able to obtain permission to set foot on TATF farms. I have not heard from any who have successfully visited their trees since 2009. The two who went anyway were given the run-around via email while there and never located anyone to meet face-to-face. This operation has appeared to have shut down with no notice to tree owners.
belmontx
The sales agent for this company attacks the messenger, not the message.
It would be a serious and costly mistake for anyone to believe the statements a sales realtor, and associate of TATF, make about the soundness and advisability of investing in this company. He advances the pitch still being used by this discredited investment scheme, while claiming to be a typical tree-owner. Consider the source when reading his entries.
Pertinent information is contained in the article "Scams in the Costa Rican teak tree farm market" See this link to a respected website discussing international investments http://www.internationalappraiser.com/2011/08/costa-rican-teak-farms-for-gringo.html.
Among points made in the article "Costa Rican teak farms for Gringo Investors" regarding the likelihood of scams is the following which points to the suspicion that TATF has become a fraud:
"Investment Promoters and Scam Artists
"Some investment promoters are not even selling land to investors, just the trees themselves. It is important to know that titled ownership in Costa Rica extends to real estate only; there are no tree titles. Any contract in English guaranteeing rights to tree ownership may not be enforceable in Costa Rican courts, either. How does one prove ownership of trees that are situated on someone else’s land?
"Many investors claim to be victims of scams in which plantation owners sell tree ownership and then charge a fee to manage the tree investment; Tropical American Tree Farms seems to have generated the most complaints. Most of the alleged fraudsters are gringos themselves, including Eric Heckler, who was a fugitive from mortgage fraud charges in Florida when found selling teak trees that weren't his before being extradited back to the U.S. in 2009.
"In the numerous listings of teak plantations for sale in Costa Rica, a sizeable discount per tree is apparent for the larger plantations, indicating an insufficient demand for the quantities of teak they are producing, with prices as low as $167 per standing tree for 20-year-old trees, which translates to about $244 per cubic meter (based on an average of .8639 cubic meters per 20-year-old teak tree), quite a bit lower than even the OLAT-published prices."
Many of these scams claim that mature teak lumber will be available from their trees age 20-25, when, in fact, 30-35 is the truth. They also claim ongoing revenue streams from the trimming of growing trees. Sound familiar?
belmontx
ABNER, as a TATF salesperson, repeatedly, and over the years, advertises in answer to factual posts by deceived owners of TATF trees. His reported experience is biased and at odds with the aggrieved actual customers of this company.
Newcomers to this forum would do well to read the posts of the past several years to get an accurate portrayal of the status of those who entrusted their money to TATF. In reviewing those posts screen out the rants of dupedbysteve who spammed this forum to near death, and the commercials for the company by abnrgrrvn who represents that company. What is left are the thousands of posts by disappointed and angry investors who sent millions of dollars to Mr. Brunner and have received nothing in return, and now do not even receive communication from him regarding inquiries about trees they own whose ages reach as old as 17-20 years. Until recently this forum was an open board for tree owners comments; now it is only available one hour per week and thus has virtually no activity except for ABNER, speaking for Mr. Brunner, and myself, speaking for the many tree owners who formerly posted here.
belmontx
Duplicitous or fraudulent?
An observer familiar with TATF from a decade ago just returned from a visit to Costa Rica and reported that the former drying and storing facilities at the farms appear to be abandoned, the tarps blown off and disintegrated and the cut wood rotting. The sites of the farms where investor trees were located also appear abandoned and the trees stunted and not maintained. Where he had seen activity years ago none existed now. The original showcase farm is now blocked off with a cryptic sign marking it as a "sanctuary". He could find no signs of the owner nor of any employees. Years earlier he remembered seeing the same places bustling with activity.
Another tree-owner sent me (jstanton5@gmail.com) this today, (I think regular readers of this forum will know who "investor in Cincinnati" is):
"Thanks again for your willingness to serve as a clearinghouse for those TATF investors who want to stay connected. It is indeed a very sad commentary on the Brunner’s that this type of forum is the only way for investors to obtain information. My message to the Brunner’s has, and will continue to be: Remain open and honest with your investors and give us the facts, however difficult they are. I don’t hold Sherry or Steve responsible for the severe recession that adversely impacted the price of tropical hardwoods. Nor do I hold them accountable for the wet weather that has ostensibly prevented them from getting into the woods to conduct thinnings. However, I do hold them responsible for failing to communicate in a transparent manner with existing tree owners while continuing to represent to prospective investors that the TATF is a thriving, growing business. Let me elaborate.
"I am a Certified Financial Planner® and Chartered Financial Consultant® with my own fee-only financial planning practice. Recently, I was working with a high net-worth businessman who had sold his business to a public company and received millions in sale proceeds. He invested a portion of the sale proceeds in public related securities (stocks, bonds, etc.) but also made several investments in private partnerships. He is somewhat of an environmentalist and searched the internet for investment opportunities in timber that practiced sustainable forestry. Incredibly, he came across TAFF’s website, and inquired about an investment. Of course, Steve personally called him to tout the merits of investing in TATF. My client asked for references. He was given the name of an investor in Cincinnati, OH and called this gentlemen. He was told that he was very happy with his TATF investment and that he had received cash distributions from tree thinnings.
"Fortunately, the client mentioned to me his interest in investing in TATF. Of course, I gave him the “rest of the story”. When Steve called my client to “close the deal”, he informed him that he had talked to another TATF investor who had a different experience and that he would not be investing at this time.
"In my opinion, this type of behavior is duplicitous at best and fraudulent at its worst. I simply want Steve to “come clean” and give us the honest truth. I can be patient if I know that the current business difficulties are temporary. But, in the absence of any forthright communication, investors are led to assume the worst case scenario, which in my opinion is that Steve is running a Ponzi scheme."
FREE POSTING HERE FRIDAYS, 4-5PM EST.
TATF tree-owners can continue to report their experiences regarding attempts to contact TATF, or visit their trees, on this forum without obtaining a premium membership -- at this Friday afternoon time only. It is important that this web presence continue so that prospective buyers can hear from present owners instead of only getting information from the misleading TATF website, as well as providing an information exchange for existing owners.
Tropical American Tree Farms status report.
None of the TATF owners with whom I have been in contact (34) this year have been able to communicate with the company. Seven have tried within the past month, using email, telephone, and letter. None have received responses. This is a continuation of the situation reported during the past two years. Two have told me they emailed TATF posing as prospective buyers recently and both received full and descriptive responses offering sales of trees at 20% off, refective of the website offers. The deceptive website for TATF exists largely unchanged from years ago when most tree owners, believing in the false projections, bought their trees.
It is likely that this company has become a cash receiver only, not tree farming, not tree maintaining. Existing tree owners do not receive answers to their inquiries about their trees, are not permitted to visit their trees, and do not hold valid and enforcable contracts for their purchases. Their trees, if they ever existed, are growing on Mr. Brunner's land and are completely within his possession. He has both the trees and the money spent for them, and he apparently plans to keep both.
As for Steve Brunner, we do not know if he still lives in Costa Rica, whether he still owns the land investors' trees reportably inhabit, nor even if he still exists on this planet.
Being a self-proclaimed spiritual man, perhaps he believes a higher authority will ultimately judge him favorably.
belmontx
Your experience is exactly that of the other buyers of TATF trees. Following are reports from buyers of this company's trees, chosen at random over the past three months and edited to preserve their anonymity. These are contained in emails I have been receiving from investors in Steve and Sherry's Tropical American Tree Farms. They own trees dating back to 1993. I have received no positive reports, only those from disappointed and angry buyers, not from real estate people from Ohio who attempt to sell TATF trees to unsuspecting customers.
First tree owner: "I am currently in Costa Rica on vacation. I sent an e-mail over a month ago asking to visit the farms. I just received an e-mail that stated "they would not allow any visits to their farms this year". I am glad to see more people speaking about their investments made with TATF. I hope to hear more people speaking up. I think my investment is lost, I hope that we can inform others before more mistakes are made."
Another investor: "Does anyone even know where Steve is living or hiding. I would love to know just so I could ask him like a man as to what he was thinking when he did this to us. He should be ashamed. I did meet him once and he and his wife and son all seemed very nice and trusting."
And another: "I was reading some of the posts on the Investorhub forum regarding investing in trees, specifically with TATF. I too am a TATF tree owner and have began to have my doubts about the company. I have some trees planted in ...., which by TATF's projections should have already been thinned and I should have already received some sort of payment at about year 7 or so and thereafter. But like others on the forum, I have not seen the first dime yet. I have e-mailed them several times to inquire. My nice e-mails will usually get a general fluffy reply. My more direct e-mails usually go unanswered."
Another: "What a frustrating experience.!
I just now received a response from TATF. ( I have asked for the wood ). They will ship the wood up if I send some $$$. . I suspect that I will never see any of the lumber and have to suffer through " 'Your beautiful lumber continues to travel to you Would you like to buy more?' Thought I did my homework on this one, guess not."
Yet another tree buyer: "Agreed on the clever details. I was able to dig up an archived site dating back to 2001. It was there. I'll email what I report to my brother in law within a couple of days, when a couple of more details are cleared up. The Brunners are conning people, but using the safe haven of CR and inserting that disclaimer, they won't be prosecutable under CR laws. The best that could be hoped for would be to close down the IRA and other sheltered investments under US law, through US channels. If the US Government, specifically the IRS would no longer accept TATF as a valid investment vehicle, some folks would not fall into the trap....It didn't take much to spot the inconsistencies once I was alerted to the problem. "
And another: "Ive been reading the posts on here for a couple years and have never posted myself. I live in Ohio and have bought hundreds of trees. As with everyone else it started out all good. There was even a company in Columbus that was going to have a showing of furniture if there was enough interest. I never inquired about it but for years I was so into owning trees and knowing I was helping so many people have jobs and replenishing the rain forest and bringing back the animal life as well as making hugh profits. The line I always loved was how nothing could stop these prices from spiraling out of sight. I just didnt know it was a downward spiral. Its an obvious scam a this point .... I've heard nothing for years and now don't expect to ever hear from them again. What a big disappointment this is. Ive told all my family and friends and always strongly rejected the idea that this wasn't on the up and up. Steves big cancer story and always he and Sherry talking about how blessed they were to have us all supporting them and yadda yadda . what a farce. I have a large archive of everything ever sent to me by them including the vcr tape that was originally sent with the intro pkg. Since they originally were in real estate I have always assumed they somehow are related to the people who run the brunner land co. in central ohio."
These reports are representative and were culled from a large number of them I have received since offering to collect information from TATF investors at my email address: jstanton5@gmail.com. Please report any recent developments concerning your the existence and maintenance of your trees. In the meantime post free on this forum between 4-5PM Fridays only. The sole posts here positive of TATF originate from a company sales representative.
belmontx
Consult the previous 3 years of postings on this forum for details of the effect on investors of the sales practices of TATF. Prior to being spammed out of activity on this forum last fall almost 100 disappointed investors had posted their experiences after buying trees as old as 1993 teak. Virtually none had received any kind of return, nor were receiving any responses to their inquiries.
Disregard any TATF sales representative who shouts while posing as a normal investor on this forum. The company he represents continues to post on its Tropical American Tree Farms website projections with the same blatantly false advertising that years ago lured existing damaged investors.
Report suspected internet fraud to the FBI at www.ic3.gov/
belmontx
Disregard TATF sales representatives who pose as normal investors on this forum. Actual investors' experiences are noted below.
I have been in contact with many TATF tree-owners. Everyone has a slightly different story to report but all are common in that they bought trees, sent money, and have not been getting responses from the company. After months of receiving emails (jstanton5@gmail.com) from dozens of people who bought TATF trees during the past 18 years the following summarizes what I have learned:
1- None of them have obtained a return of any kind. They have lost hope that they will ever receive any of the periodic returns that were projected by Mr. Brunner so confidently on his TATF website (and still are), or that they will receive any further tangible communications from him in response to their inquiries.
2- They realize that the chances of them ever seeing any return whatsoever from their tree purchases are small.
3- They have become aware that their ownership of their trees is tenuous, at best, is extra-legal, and is outside their control. Since these trees reside on someone else's land (Brunner's for now, who knows who else later?), and the certificates were written in a language (English)not recognized for contracts by Costa Rican courts, they realize they have no claim for them. They have learned from posts on the Hub forum that other tree-owners' requests to remove their trees at their own expense have been refused by Brunner.
4- They have become aware that attempts to visit and view their trees are now failing since the TATF owner's representative has told them the tree farms are presently closed to tree-owners.
5- Their last thin hope for return of the money they sent to this company is that if they do nothing now, raise no complaint, join in no joint action, the company will revive on its own, begin collecting money again from new tree-buyers, and resume maintenance of existing trees. This ponzi-like hope, fanciful as it is, is all they have left and explains why the thousands who never posted on the Hub during its heyday stayed silent. It will be decades, of course, before any investor would know for sure that he has been cheated out of all of his investment.
6- None who contacted me have any idea what Steve and Sherry Brunner did with the millions of dollars they were sent other than buy more Costa Rican real estate. Those who were able to visit their trees prior this "not permitted" ruling found them small for their age, often stunted, and not trimmed properly nor the brush cleared in many cases.
7- All seem to be astonished that TATF continues to post its grossly deceptive website, complete with most all of the original implied periodic returns to its tree-buyers, and that who for some time now has stopped answering inquiries from his thousands of tree-buyers. They don't understand how this could come from an owner who portrays himself as a wholesome tree farmer and man of faith.
belmontx
AN ANALYSIS OF TATF - 1992 TO PRESENT
Of importance to present and prospective owners of Brunner's Tropical American Tree Farms trees is the following report and analysis from one of our contributors who wishes to remain anonymous. We are indebted to him for the research he has done. While reading it please notice the attributions to the various sources used in compiling this paper. While this begins with a review of teak promotions in general, the analysis then focuses on TATF and reveals why it seems to be in trouble and is utterly failing in meeting investor expectations.
Central American Teak Plantations
The start of the teak plantation boom in Costa Rica was in 1989. Following the lead of a small US teak plantation using novel financing and marketing models, the Dutch company Flor y Fauna began planting and marketing sections of teak plantations to investors in the Netherlands. In promotion of these tropical timber investments buzzwords like 'ecologically responsible, socially conscious, environmental sustainability' were splashed across flashy investment brochures, targeting a environmentally oriented clientele. After a few years passed, in the mid nineties these companies were 'green washed' with accreditations that supported questionable yield and return on investment, projections. By 1994 ten other Dutch teak plantations were being started, all using similar business and marketing models. As well, other companies from other nations, joined the teak rush. [11]
The business of teak plantations were aided greatly by research papers coming out of the United Nations heralding the deforestation of the tropical rain forests, and the first sirens of the CO2 climate change carbon sequestration, debate. There were many genuine reasons for the wave of new teak plantations. The government of Costa Rica aided, by forming a strong national policy promoting investment in reforestation.
As sometimes happens, good intentions stumble with the interaction of free enterprise, and the new age 'fast growth' teak plantations soon were reeling from the exploitation of aggressive and unrealistic marketing ploys. Inflated yield and price projections, failed in execution and function, tainting initial investor offerings. [8] Soon the government of Netherlands was investigating, eventually involving the Code of Ethics Committee on Advertising, the Dutch Parliament, and later the courts. [9,10]
The emerging problems of the investment schemes of these plantations were very well described by Julio Cesar Centeno, Phd., below.
"It all looked too good to be true. In almost all cases, the huge rates of return promised to investors were unfortunately construed on highly unlikely projections on the yield and price of the timber to be produced. The forecasts upon which the success of these forestry projects had been built had little to do with technical knowledge and professional judgement.They had been largely based on speculation. The Dutch public soon became the victim of traders of illusions.[1]
By the end of 1996 a scandalous proportion of these new model of teak plantations, had been exposed. Yield projections had been shown to inflate actual performance by more than double, price projections exceeded realism by staggering percentages, and inflated return on investment (ROI) projections were exposed, leaving murmurs of fraud."
Using a slight variation of this production and marketing model, Tropical American Tree Farms, TATF, opened for business in 1991. Many of the same situations, have evolved in TATF's short history. Early and later investors have received in spades, little of what they were promised in hearts. Within five years of its inception, TATF's marketing model began to underperform projections, but with an expanding investor base suppling fresh capital, TATF's business seemingly flourished. Unmet investor expectations, mattered little internally, while promises of increasing return on investment were consistently intimated, through new projections.
Was this naivety, or something other? Below is a study using TATF statements, industry statistics, articles and the research of journalists, silva culture studies, subject related websites, and comments of TATF investors; filtered with my own personal experience as a master log scaler, lumber grader, and interactions with the timber industry and markets, for many years. Though it is impossible to write a critical examination totally without bias, conclusions and opinions have been documented with a bibliography and appendix. The evolution of the TATF story, follows. The information in this study should allow the foundation for the reader to form his/her own conclusions, or at very least, present avenues to pursue the answers, to other queries.
Teak Plantations for sale - Standing Wholesale Inventory
Realistically how much can juvenile teak be worth when you can buy an existing teak plantation in Costa Rica, with 12 - 14 year old trees with circumferences of 70 - 110 cm, for $27,000 a hectare. 70-110 cm circumference translates to 9-14 inch diameters above the stump swell. This range is exactly the projected diameter range in the TATF projections for 10 and 13 year trees. [4][7]
If these trees are grown on 3 meter centers, and have been thinned at 7 and 10 years leaving approximately 42% of the original planting, a hectare would contain approximately 466 trees of this size. Those 446 trees are being sold for $58 apiece along with the land underneath them too! These are no where near the wholesale projections TATF is marketing. Using this inflated $58 figure and the TATF growing model, if you bought a 100 trees for $3,000, at this age you would have 42 remaining with a current standing value of $2,436. Assuming you were paid at rates TATF is projecting for the other 43 of these trees thinned, (with 15 culls), you are at break even with 7 years left. However, to this date, very, very, few TATF tree owners have received any compensation for the 7, 10, or 13 year thinnings. Note: The wholesale value of the standing timber alone is much less than these figures, as the above calculations assume the land has no value. The documented cost of planting teak in Costa Rica can be found here, [19]. Along with maintenance costs for five years, it is about $1.65 apiece. Using a median price of parcels of plantation size and quality, you can add another $3 to rent the land for 25 years, and the cost hitherto of your five year old teak tree, rent free for another twenty years, is $4.65
Also to be noted is the current TAFT projections of the 42 remaining trees at 13 years, is $504 each, $21,168 for all 42. The historical peak market price (in 2007) of an equal volume of (older) 20 year logs was $84 apiece. [5] The difference between the 13 year projected value of $504 and the $84 actual value of 20 year logs, will be multiplied by 5% every remaining year for the 20 year TATF projection. Note: it was necessary to compare TATF's projected 13 year log value with actual 2007 peak value of 20 year Costa Rican plantation logs, because there is no existing market for comparison, past or present, for 13 year trees or their resulting lumber. ** note: Dec. 2010 prices, the latest recorded in ITTO price reports, has Costa Rican plantation logs listed at 350-500 M3, CNF - (cost and freight). The equivalent FOB from any Costa Rican port, is $200-$400 M3, the 2007 historical market peak. Further investigation of the fluctuation in the prices paid in India, was traced to the volatility of the Baltic Dry Index, ( shipping). Also noted, ITTO price quotes are generally FOB, i.e., freight paid by the buyer, unless otherwise stipulated.
The inflated TATF projected value, for twenty year trees, with the built in 5% annual value inflation, are no where near in the ball park. That 5% annual value inflation is based on past markets for mature rain forrest teak and slow growth teak plantations. The average age at sale was well beyond 50 years. You can't extrapolate that inflation rate to a new, nearly non existent market, for juvenile teak. [2] [5] Only with a hitherto nonexistent value added product line for the twenty year trees, could these values possibly find foundation. As well, the sawn wood market for fast growth plantation teak cannot meet these projections.
At the link below are other Teak farms for sale as well; 225 Ha/ $27,500/Ha; 133 Ha/ 17 year teak / $27,500/Ha; 600Ha 10-14 year teak / $28,340 / Ha; all developed and maintained. Teak farms are also available for sale cheaper, in Panama, Nicaragua, an Ecuador. [4] [12] There are no shortage of Teak Farms for sale, many failing because of the same business model with similar projections, and no past or current market for the product, while juvenile.
~~ Pricing Teak in International Markets ~~ ITTO a pdf download
www.itto.int/direct/topics/topics_pdf_download/topics_id=...
At present there is no transparency or standard in plantation teak prices. Below are ITTO proposals for standardization of pricing based on grades. Grades are to be determined by diameter size, shape, straightness, heartwood characteristics, and lack of other natural and processing defects. It is proposed to have three differing locations of value, Asia, Latin America, and Africa. The planning and implementation of this standardization of plantation teak pricing, is in its infancy.
The latest price (2007) for Costa Rica plantation teak in this ITTO publication is $200-$300/M3 with exceptional logs reaching $400/M3 all FOB in the US market. Translated that means the average $300/M3 log would fetch $.71/bd/ft. Note: these are whole logs, not squared or cants. It should be noted these prices roughly correlate with plantation exports from West Africa, Columbia, and Brazil shipped to India, though the later three are generally older trees of higher quality. [5]
It appears the future of plantation teak sales will be in logs rather than lumber, unless individual plantations create a value added product line or open their own marketing subsidiaries. This is probably the reason for the addition of Tropical American Hardwoods (TAH) as a wholesale / retail marketing arm of TATF.
The Sri Lanken plantation teak in the picture at the link is between 24 - 30 inches in diameter at chest height. The age is upward of fifty years. The Costa Rican plantations listed above, the healthiest trees are about 12 inches in diameter, at 12 - 14 years. Compare the difference in bark characteristics of the older Sri Lanken plantation trees. They are both plantation trees, but with increased age the log and lumber quality will vary greatly. [3]
Another good link for teak plantations is below
~~ http://www.treemail.nl/teakscan.dal/files/mngteak.htm ~~
In this article methods of the 50+ year teak plantations are discussed. [2]
Tropical American Tree Farms' Marketing Projections, - Facts or Fiction
The TATF site and projections- [7]
Salted throughout the main site in different topic locations are statements designed to inflate expectations, an example follows. In the What's New section of the main menu is the lumber price pitch.
~~ excerpt from the existing TATF website ~~
Teak Lumber Prices
The best published independent authority we have found for international large-scale wholesale tropical lumber prices is the ITTO, or International Tropical Timber Organization, which publishes frequent Tropical Timber Market Reports with, in their words, “the aim of improving transparency in the international tropical timber market.”
The February 15, 2008 ITTO Tropical Timber Market Report, their most recent report that includes the US imported sawnwood prices, shows that the average US Imported Sawnwood Prices for rough sawn teak lumber is $2,125 per cubic meter, or $5.01 per board foot.
In the same Market Report, the price reported for first quality teak lumber in the U.K. market is $4,160 to $4,804 per cubic meter, or $9.81 to $11.33 per board foot.
Clearly our trees are still young and their lumber is not yet at its prime, and not every log will yield first quality lumber, but it is exciting that the actual prices independently reported for adult teak are significantly higher than the conservative $3.11 per board foot beginning price for adult teak in our projections. [7]"
There is over thirty years of difference in the type of teak TATF is comparing to their 20 year (supposed mature) teak, with its projected price of $3.11 bd/ft. TATF's 'adult teak' by even plantation standards, is juvenile. The highest price ever paid in the US for this age and quality of log was at peak market 2007. The price loaded on the boat in Costa Rica was a median price of $300M3 which is 71 cents a bd/ft. [5] The TATF 2011 projection price for this years 20 year teak is already four times higher than has ever been paid. The actual peak price of 71 cents bd/ft for semi adult 20 year teak is only 6 cents higher than what TATF is projecting for 7 year unmarketable thinnings and 4 cents lower than projected for 10 year unmarketable thinnings, both with no mature heartwood.
So is this $3.11 Bd/ft to mean the projected price of 20 year teak 20 years from today? Not according to this paragraph in the Teak Projections section. [7]
~~ excerpt ~~
For example, teak lumber from 7 year old trees sells today for approximately $0.65 per board foot . That same 7-year teak lumber, assuming an increase in price of 5% per year, will sell for $0.91 per board foot 7 years from now. And teak from 20 year old trees that would average $3.11 per board foot today, if the prices increase at 5% per year, will sell for $8.25 per board foot 20 years from now.
~~ end excerpt ~~
This paragraph is clearly misleading. Now it becomes a big problem that the peak price (in 2007) for Costa Rican 20 year plantation teak logs, was 71 cents Bd/ft. From that inflated $3.11 figure, future 20 year projected profits will be computed by multiplying at 5% inflation every year. This $3.11 bdft value has no basis in reality, there is no such log grown at present, in the Costa Rican plantations. There are no past or present ITTO Price Reports that support this value for fast growth teak plantation logs! [5] [6]
If this value is extrapolated from a value added system (unstated), or a milled lumber volume, then in opposition I present; at the present ITTO specified log prices, these juvenile logs will not yield adequate 'mean recovery' of existing lumber grades, to support the $3.11 bdft figure. The mean recovery of the expected cut is $.71bdft., plus perhaps a .25 bd/ft milling cost. As well, no evidence of recovery of old growth characteristics in fast growth logs has been documented or demonstrated by TATF, or from the market's standard, the ITTO.
Furthermore, clearly without a guaranteed purchase and utilization by Raleo , or without benefit of other value added venues, neither the 7 or 10 year thinnings have marketable value, there simply is not an existing market. [6] Very little of the lumber from 13 year thinnings will meet the lumber grades TATF is inferring, in this years What's New section of the main menu. Before TATF projections can have rational foundation, Raleo or other value added measures, must prove the ability to utilize the the entire thinning volume, and the final harvest volume. As of now five years of thinnings have yet to find a market, and the investors are yet to receive payment. ** Note: as of the 2009 'Tree Owners News', Raleo no longer represents an option for investors to realize, the 'value added' concept. For the grand majority of investors, the past promise of value added by Raleo Designs, has crashed and burned. As was the hope of recovery from Raleo, so goes now, the hope invested in Tropical American Hardwoods (TAH), the marketing arm of TATF. Tropical American Hardwoods hopes to find markets kind to past projections, through sawn products too young to compete well, with the age and quality of the competition, and the experience that evinced.
In the menu section Why Plant Tropical Hardwoods, much of what is said is absolutely true. Tropical hardwoods make beautiful furniture, molding, flooring, musical instruments among many other uses. What isn't said, is the demand is for lumber and veneers from old growth forests, with old growth characteristics. Currently like teak, there is little market for juvenile trees. This is not to say Raleo or other value added measures can't utilize cuttings from younger trees, but currently there isn't a market. So investment should be for environmental and sentimental reasons, and not for investment returns. Until a viable market proves otherwise, the 'other species' hardwood market, should be considered as undeveloped.
That the Brunner's have diversified planting is commendable on several levels, but at this time it should be viewed in a different context than return on investment.
The only statements in the website that give an indication past and present projections are not being met, are found in the Tree Owner News, section of the main menu. It is here that early nineties investors first get a glimpse, that the projections for juvenile teak are not being met.
- Nov 1998 Tree Owner News - [7]
In the section of Early Thin of the 1992 Teak it is first mentioned investors should not have expectations of proceeds from early thinning. Though the projections count the value of 25% of the purchased trees to be thinned at approximately 7 years, and the projected value of that thinning to be .65/bdft, determined by an appreciating value of 5% per year; these thinned trees are now to be presumed to have no value, and don't expect a check.
Those who have bought trees earlier than Nov. 1998 have a legitimate complaint, that though very carefully worded in some sections that there are no guarantees, other sections like projections, willfully neglect stating the lack of market and value, for immature heartwood and sapwood.
At this point in the 1999 - early 2000's, the only thing covering a growing overhead for plantation maintenance is a continuing expanding investor base bringing in much needed operating capital, using known false return on investment projections, for a market that doesn't exist. Adding to the problem, processing costs and 6% care and management fees will not be adding to the revenue stream anytime soon.
This is the time of conception and the reason for, the sister company, Raleo Designs. Its sole purpose under the euphemism of "value added", is to create and utilize a market, for previously promised returns. It is by design and purpose that Raleo, gives value where none has previously existed, and that allows future orders using the same projections to skirt perceptions of unethical behavior. Until Raleo proves it can handle the thinning volumes of existing and new investors, the ethical viability of TATF teeters on kind economic and market conditions as well as a continuing revenue stream from new investors. If any one of the three aforementioned fails, at this point, TATF and Raleo Designs, are not self sufficient standing alone or together.
In the Tree Owner News Summer 1999 TATF estimates Raleo Designs once in operation will be able to utilize thinnings and pay investors $4.00 a bd/ft and calculates the first thinning of 25 trees per 100, will produce about 8 bd/ft apiece, for a return of $800. Investors are also given an option of using the returns to purchase more trees, and would be credited at $4.00 bd/ft for the thinnings. Most chose to wait for the Raleo Designs value added cash return, and are still waiting. Building a factory, creating a product line, and exploiting the existing high end art and furniture market, takes time and has a limited number of potential upscale clientele.
Without the reality of a functioning Raleo Designs, providing a "value added" market, TATF's business model is broken, and with this knowledge, from the year 1998 forward, TATF management has been operating a ponzi pyramid to cover operating costs and acquisitions. TATF more than doubled the hectares with farm acquisitions in the next seven years, doubled the trees planted, and doubled the employees; all before the grand majority of investors have received promised returns for thinnings at 'value added' prices. Value added prices that were presumed possible, through belief in the viability of the underperforming Raleo Designs. It would later become evident, Raleo Designs would never be able to fulfill the promises to all TATF investors, and bring the business model back in line with fabricated marketed expectations. As late as the 2007 Tree Owner News, TATF was touting Raleo's value added market for the juvenile thinnings, but nine years after conception and five years after the start of production, Raleo had only utilized 188,000 bdft of sawn thinnings, while accumulating a back logged inventory of an additional 3.8 million bdft. Still, it was stated, that after increasing the capacity of production of Raleo by a factor of four, the backlog would soon be processed and distributions soon made, to all investors.
Distributions never happened for investors that purchased trees after 1992, and despite many promises of meeting projections with the development of a value added market, in 2009 investors were rudely awakened that Raleo would not be able to honor the $4.00 bdft price for juvenile thinnings. Instead it was offered, their boards could be sold on the local market for $.65 a bdft, or they could continue to wait for an unspecified value added program, with unspecified valued added products. The 2009 Tree Owner News continued to surprise, when the kicker was installed. It informed, that because of cash flow problems, investors who want their trees thinned and maintained, must front the cost to TATF. Now the revenue stream is flowing in the opposite direction than the original tree agreement and website intimated, with not a cent having been distributed to the grand majority of investors. The devil is in the details, and the fine print of the tree owners agreement.
As of the 2010 Tree Owner News not much has changed, except the price of new trees continues to rise, and new projections continue to baffle the discerning and well researched investor, with unrealistic return on investment forecasts. The game continues with genetic selection of superior faster growing, quicker to harvest, teak. Teak that will still produce juvenile sawn lumber with characteristics only beginning the process of maturation, and infantile in comparison to the the sawn wood production from slow growth plantations (50+ years) and the trees harvested from the dwindling supply in tropical rain forests.
Throughout TATF's naive and tumultuous journey, tremendous land wealth has been accumulated with the rapid growth from acquisition, but as of yet, very little production of a merchantable product has been realized. TATF is literally trying to create its own markets in timber and products, to justify its past projections, and secure its very existence. No doubt TATF's 'stated' goals and motivations are noble, but are the existing methods and models viable, and are the existing practices, ethical? Only in success, will these questions be positively affirmed, the alternative, is to sad to contemplate.
The Risk of Investing in TATF Going Forward - with a heavy dose of caveat emptor.
There are more than a few critics of the central american fast growth teak plantations, their business models, their growth and pricing projections, and the total lack of an internationally accepted market standard, for juvenile teak. Their marketing strategies as discussed above have come under fire from researchers and governments, trying to protect investors. In the Netherlands regulation has partially succeeded in curbing some of the worst abuse, in Germany the problems of investing in tropical tree plantations has been noted. In this paper several sources have documented the problem, with consistent areas of concern. [1] [2] [3][13] As well, the ITTO, the guideline for pricing and quality of the global markets, freely admits the lack of market mechanisms to deal with the variety of quality and ages, in the teak plantation markets. The development of grades and the collection of pricing statistics is admitted to be in its infancy. This is especially noted as a problem for other types of plantation tropical hardwoods. At the time of this writing, there simply is no defined market, listed in ITTO Price Reports for teak and other juvenile hardwoods from tropical plantations. [6]
It is from the above realities, many investor complaints past and present, are surfacing. TATF is no exception, there are a growing number of TATF clients questioning the projections and pricing structures of the marketing model. As well it should be noted, TATF even after realizing an absence of market, and after experiencing a serious downturn in the global economy and the forest products market, continues to give unsubstantiated projections of return on investment, that have no identifiable basis in reality. That old business models were proven to be naive of existing conditions, might be excused as inexperience. However to continue to adhere to models, methods, and projections proven inaccurate, and to continue to aggressively misrepresent future investor returns without adjusting models or projections, creates an ethical objection for the discerning. There will be no soft landing for TATF, if adjustments in their method of operations, are not made.
TATF presently has a cash flow problem not allowing for the proper care and maintenance of investors' trees. Once thought to be a portion subtracted from the thinning distributions, TATF now is soliciting payment advances for these services. The delays in thinning, threaten the quality of the final harvests, as the clear wood free of heart center and sap, will be greatly limited without the maintenance of limb removal. The lack of new tree sales to cover operational overhead, adds to the problems of the crumbling business model. Employees went for extended periods without pay in 2008 - 2009, many finally being terminated. Even before the global economic crisis, distributions to the employee Caja seguro social were not being made, and TATF and subsidiaries to date, have accumulated more than 1.8 million dollars in unpaid liabilities, to the Caja. [22]
Further investment in TATF should be viewed as high risk, both for the principal, and receiving the projected inflated ROI. TAFT has yet to meet projections of initial thinnings, and continues to falter with value added projects, to pay distributions for all plantings after 1992. New projections inflate realistic returns from uncharted future markets. Very few new investors form a base, to support the overhead of obligations. Beyond the high risk of the faltering business model, the following points should be weighed as in conflict with a potential investor recourse.
The Tree Purchase agreement investors sign is not a contract. It requires nothing of binding consequence from TATF, other than the planting of the initial 100 trees, and a replanting if needed, of any trees that do not survive the first year. In the entire rest of the agreement, all limitations are placed on the buyer's ability to recoup moneys from unmet implied obligations. Note especially #17 'No Interest in Real Estate or Other Assets' and # 23 'Decisions, Warranties, and Indemnities', releasing TATF from all responsibility from everything, including their own errors and negligence.[20] All of this is moot, except in the US, as this is an agreement not a contract, and has no legal standing in any court in Costa Rica, as well, it is not written in the required, Spanish language. The tree certificate issued with this agreement is also useless, because it is not written in Spanish, and, under Costa Rican law, only the real estate ownership is a material question. Minerals or resources on or under the property are presumed implicit in the escritura y plano catasrado, (deed). If an investor chooses to challenge anything about TATF, a Costa Rican corporation, the plaintiff is automatically assigned an adversarial position in the courts, a Costa Rican lawyer must be assigned to your case, and TATF gets to select the venue and the judge to hear the case.
Also to be stated, there is no incentive for the government to regulate or place limitations on TATF. The national reforestation program claims the work product for future tradable carbon credits, the government benefits from the addition of employment in rural provinces, and maintains an environmental 'image' in the eyes of the global economy.
Any future investment in TATF, should be for environmental or sentimental reasons, not a return on investment.
~~ sources ~~
1. Traders of Illusions, Julio Cesar Centeno, July 1996
~~ http://www.treemail.nl/teakscan.dal/files/traders.htm ~~
2. The Management of Teak Plantations, Julio Cesar Centeno,
~~ http://www.treemail.nl/teakscan.dal/files/mngteak.htm ~~
3. ITTO Tropical Forest Update 14-1, 2004, Making the Grade [EN]PDF-3 plantation teak utility
~~ www.itto.int/publication ~~ note: you need to register to access this report
4. Central American Teak Plantations - For Sale
~~ http://www.rojofuegosa.com/teak_farm.htm ~~
5. ITTO Tropical Forest Update 18-2, 2008, Markets - international pricing mechinisms fo teak plantations [EN]PDF teak pricing ITTO
~~ www.itto.int/direct/topics/topics_pdf_download/topics_id=... ~~
6. ITTO Tropical timber Market Report, Vol. 13 Number 23, Dec 2008
~~ www.itto.int/publications ~~ note: you need to register to access these market reports.
7. TATF website with links to sister sites Raleo, EcoHardwoods, and Tropical American Hardwoods
~~ tatf.com ~~
8. Appendix 3 Flor y Fauna S.A. Costa Rica Reforestation Program, - Phd. Pablo Camacho, Note: the original claims later proven to be inflated volume projections of over 100%
~~ http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/005/Y7205E/y7205e0e.htm ~~
9. Growth and Yield, Paul Romeijn, Tree Mail, July 1996. Flor y Fauna in the courts.
~~ http://www.treemail.nl/teakscan.dal/files/growth.htm ~~
10. After the courts, Flor y Fauna misses projections by more than half.
~~ http://www.treemail.nl/teakscan.dal/files/growth.htm ~~
11. Forest Certification as a tool for greenwashing, Julio Cesar Centeno Phd., Nov. 1996
~~ http://www.treemail.nl/teakscan.dal/files/greenwas.htm#pric ~~
12. Teak Plantations as an Investiment - link http://www.surfingto.com/caribbean/
80 hectare teak plantation in Panama +/- 8 -12 yr. trees - $18,750/hectare
very similar planting methods, harvest schedule, and projections, to TATF
~~ http://www.surfingto.com/caribbean/80_hectares.html ~~
13. Investment Risks of Tropical American Timber Funds
~~ onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1477-8947.1998.tb...
14. Management of Teak Plantations for Solid Wood Products, William Ladrach, 2009, Excellent
article on teak plantations, the history and evolution and the present. Maintenance silviculture
~~ http://www.istf-bethesda.org/specialreports/teca_teak/teak.pdf ~~
15. Teak lumber from El Salador - Miami re saw - good information with links to grading specs
~~ http://www.woodshop102.com/50.html ~~
16. Illustrated Guide to American Hardwood Lumber Grades - excellent general information
~~ http://www.nhla.com/illustrated_guide/IllustratedGradingGuide.pdf ~~
17. South American Hardwoods - excellent Info on mature teak characteristics
~~ http://www.sahardwoods.com/content/view/14/30/ ~~
18. Global hardwood prices, logs and sawn
~~http://www.globalwood.org/`
19. FAO Research, the cost of planting teak in Costa Rica
~~ http://www.fao.org/forestry/media/4602/1/0/ ~~
20. TATF Tree purchase aggreements - Note: Invalid in Costa Rica, agreements have no legal standing in Costa Rica, and contracts in Costa Rica must be be written in spanish.
~~ http://www.tatf.com/htm/tree_order_forms/forms/tree_order_form.pdf ~~
21. For research convenience, a log volume computing table for Doyle, International, and Scribner
~~ http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/calculators/calc.pl ~~
22. Investorshub , see post 934 for link to the caja and the identity #s of TATF and Raleo.
~~ http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/board.aspx?board_id=7823# ~~
==========================================================================
Below two links are listed for investment forums, that have had issues with TATF's client relations, projections, market pricing claims, among other subjects. It should be noted, these are disgruntled clients, some with just cause, others perhaps with too large of expectations. The comments need to be weighed within this context, and at times a grain of salt should be applied. From my perusal of over 2,500 posts, I will highlight some situations that should be considered, and possibly further researched.
==========================================================================
Appendix 1 links -
A1. Critics of TATF - InvestersHub forum - more than 3,000 posts over 4 years. Some posts need to be taken with a grain of salt.
~~ http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/board.aspx?board_id=7823# ~~
A2. Tropical Tree Investment Forum - critics
~~ http://tropicaltreeinvestmentforum.com/index.php?topic=3.15 ~~
Where did all the money go? The thirty-million plus mailed and wired to Steve and Sherry Brunner for purchases of growing trees on his tree farms from 1993 to present? Checks that over 3000 trusting buyers sent in amounts ranging from $3200 to $340,000, totaling over $30 million by his own statements on his website four years ago? Do not believe anyone who says this company is honoring their commitments to tree buyers. It is patently untrue. Read all the others who have posted here on this forum. As you will see below tree owners are now being told that they cannot even visit their trees after years of assurances by TATF on its website that they can travel to the tree farms and see their trees anytime.
The bulk of the money doesn't appear to have been spent on tree maintenance, in fact, the only visible evidence of effort by this company is on maintenance of its website and solicitations for more purchases. At this point we know that TATF is not going to be able, nor will ever be able, nor even wants to, provide repayment in place of the returns Brunner so recklessly promotes on his website. So what did he do with all the money he received after he planted the baby trees?
Tree buyers with trees as old as 17 years are getting no responses from TATF, and now the company office seems to be nowhere to be found.
Signs are that they have quit. Several have told me they cannot get directions to the office or farms. Now, the latest email received this week from a TATF tree-owner states that he is currently in Costa Rica and, when asking to visit his trees, was told by email that "they would not allow any visits to their farms this year".
From this we learn that investors will no longer be allowed to visit the site where their trees allegedly were planted. There is zero evidence that this business remains viable or that the company president and staff still function or even exist. No investor, repeat, no investor, is reporting any returns, reports, or communication from Mr. Brunner or from his employees, if he still has any. The only responses come when a prospective buyer of trees uses the TATF email address. Then a glowing two-page advertisement is sent as a reply.
Some time ago the TATF website removed the company address and any directions to its office or farms, apparently to discourage investors from coming. Whether TATF is still at that location is unlikely. It is unconscionable that the owner, basking in righteousness on his website, is still posting the same promotions and projections he used when tree-owners originally bought their trees from him many years ago.
Owners of TATF trees -- Alert
Post on this forum between 4 and 5, Fridays. That time frame is available then, and only then, for non-premium posters. Contact me at jstanton5@gmail.com and I will share information I receive from other tree owners. So far, 27 have emailed and are on my mailing list. None of the communications I have received contains good news. Most are reporting various unsuccessful attempts to communicate or to visit.
Innocent people who read Mr. Brunner's promotions on his still extant website should know what is really happening to people who believed, trusted, and sent their money to TATF during the past 17 years.
belmontx
The deceptions by this company continue.
There is no change to the status of Tropical American Tree Farms' lack of connection with its existing tree-owners. Its office appears to only be interested in prospective tree-buyers.
No one other than duped has reported receiving pictures and "assessments of their trees progress". And bear in mind that duped is a person who threatened legal action against TATF before receiving a refund and has since posted relentless promotions for the same company. Read his first posts on this forum from last spring, beginning 4/11/10 through July of last year.
The many messages I have been receiving from investors in TATF indicate that none of them are happy with this company, all are concerned about its status, and none are getting any "cashier's checks" nor even reports about the condition or maintenance of their trees. That post is fiction. It is a perfect mirror image of the actual dilemma faced by investors in TATF trees.
As has been true for several years now, investors are not receiving reports about their trees, and the company is not responding to their requests for specific information. The contents of duped's recent post do not apply to any other investor who is in touch with me.
This is what the TATF office tells a current tree-owner who demanded answers as to why the company website promotions are false:
This from Andres Fonseca of Tree Owner Relations, and, of course, signed "warmly", the same sign-off Steve Brunner used for years when giving his spiel in his lengthy emails: "The timing of when we begin the thinnings again will depend directly upon when either we have obtained the necessary capital to acquire, install and operate the value adding processing and production machinery and the volume value adding processing, production and sales are up and running, or when the lumber market improves, whichever occurs first. At this time it is not possible to know when either will occur."
In other words, we need more money from our promotions before we can carry out the implied promises made in our projections on our website. Sound like Ponzi?
This is a far cry from what duped is posting about his successes with TATF and it appears to be conditional upon this company "raising more capital", i.e. selling more trees to misguided customers..
Readers can see for themselves by perusing the posts in this forum - particularly prior to the involvement last spring of dupedbysteve which had the effect of spamming the contents as he posed as a happy investor following receiving a refund for his purchases.
Tree owners are in touch with me at jstanton5@gmail.com so that we may continue to gather accurate information about experiences with TATF. I will share information with all legitimate tree-owners who contact me.
Also, readers may post free on this premium forum on Fridays between 4 and 5PM Eastern.
belmontx
Agree completely with bfl. Sorry, 4rtrees, my email address was entered incorrectly. It is jstanton5@gmail.com. You can reach me there and I will respond promptly.
I encourage all investors to email me with any developments concerning their attempts to communicate with TATF and any results they may have had. I will send regular updates consolidating this information for all who are in contact with me.
Thus far the situation remains as it was at the end of last year; no reports that we have heard about from TATF to tree owners of any maintenance, thinnings, nor harvesting of trees. This silence is in its fourth year. In spite of this the TATF website promotions continue in much the same form they were when buyers sent them money ten and fifteen years ago. Investments appear to be in great jeopardy, with no credible reports of any activity on behalf of trees purchased. False advertising, at the very least.
As bfl warns, stay away from this company.
belmontx
Tree owners unable to get information from this company. The situation is going into its fourth year. For example, bogstomper (a frequent poster on this forum) posted this on another forum on 2/11/2011::
"Looks like nothing has really changed!!
Has anyone heard if there is any thinning going on on the farms in this dry season?
Not really a sign of a well run company that investors have to resort to a discussion form to get info on their investments, and boy is that info dodgy! (what was all that about tatf selling the farms?)
I have being trying to contact the farms by email, and phone to see what is going on and nothing.
I have repeatedly sent emails requesting that my trees be thinned at MY expense and have had the following responses:
I emailed TATF on the
19th feb 2010
13th April 2010
14th May 2010
1 June 2010
2 July 2010
5th July 2010 got a response saying that there was a TON coming out soon and to get back in touch after I have read it and see what I wanted to do.
I responed on the
30 July 2010 asking to tell me how much it would cost, no response so i emailed again on the
21 Sep 2010
22 dec 2010
21 Jan 2011
That is a lot of silence! with me offering to send funds to them to thin my trees for the good of the remianing trees.
Very difficult to feel comfortable with this investment. "
Go to http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx to report the details of your experience with TATF. There is no evidence from any credible source that anything has changed since the post cited below. Planb made many posts on this forum subsequent to this one, some as recently as three months ago. Readers are encouraged to review these, as well as the others' posts made prior to last May when one poster received a refund and began spamming this forum to the point it was closed as a free exchange. Virtually all the 100+ investors recorded here have had the same disappointing experience.
From planblotrade, post #346
"I am a tree owner with TATF and I have visited both my trees and other "Show" trees. My visit was troubling, and I have befriended two other fellow tree owners that have visited. Their visits have also been troubling as well.
While I did not enter into this venture for a quick return and recognize many of the hurdles involved, I am troubled by the lack of information available from TATF. I would be much more accepting of the things that Steve is trying to do, if he was more forthcoming with specific information. For instance, I am troubled to find out that it has been 15 years for some owners and they have no distributions, and they have no realistic estimate of distributions. It does not appear that I will see any distributions.
When I visited the farms and inquired about the piles of rough cut 8 yr old teak laying rotting on the ground by the trees he said that he believed in using everything. Only shortly later did I realize that it was someones' thinned teak awaiting and awaiting...
I do believe that Steve Brunner likes to keep tree owner from comparing notes as it can only lead to additional negative information regarding TATF. Check out the IP address registrations some time. Steve Brunner owns many 10's, or hundreds of domain names with almost every conceivable variation of tree farms, and teak plantations, .com, .net, .org, etc. Make no mistake, Steve Brunner is in a business venture for himself first here, and he has no priority in making sure owners meet the projections on the web site, either by total bd ft/tree or by total $$. His only promise is that the trees will planted, cared for, and permitted to grow for 25 yrs.
After my visit to the farms and follow up emails to Steve, he informed me that he had fired all 3 employees of TATF that I had dealt with for the visit. This was all troubling..."
Nothing has changed for those who bought Tropical American Tree Farm trees. Do not be deceived by those who log in as spokespersons for the company while purporting to be representative tree owners. For three years now they have not been receiving answers to their questions, nor reports on their trees' maintenance, nor any sign that their investment is viable. It appears that they never will.
As an example, bfl's recent 1/10/11 post is quoted below:
"I and several of my friends purchased some of the oldest teak trees that TATF has ever offered. As of yet none of us have received any payment from TATF for 1st or 2nd thinnings. There is no way that I believe that there are piles of letters from people who are so happy with their return on their investments. My friends and I have to be very close to owning trees as long as anyone has. Our empty pockets are still hoping to be even partially filled by a payment from TATF. My pockets would sing with joy and make me get on here and write about receiving money from TATF. Instead my pockets are still empty and I am writing out of hopelessness and despair. So far, after almost 17 years of being involved with TATF, I have to say that this investment is a total bust. If any new investor is thinking about buying trees from this organization, do your homework. Read the entire amount of posts on this site. You will know the true story. I do not own another tree farm and only wish for the success of TATF. So far TATF does not look anything like a successful company for anyone but the owners."
TATF is anything but an upstanding company and they have deceived investors by their statements on their website.
For some time they have not responded to tree owner inquiries. Just and I are former tree owners who lost money from this scheme. Read the 70+ posters on this forum (virtually all of the posters who communicated here for three years before duped - a company spokesperson - spammed the forum out of its free status) who have been taken in by investing in TATF and are angry and betrayed.
The previous post is an attempt to intimidate present investors so as to keep the money coming in.
belmontx
Good post. It tells the real story about this company.
This, as always in your posts, is dead-on accurate and reveals the TATF scheme for what it is.
Evidence from the many tree owners who have reported on other forum is uniformly contrary to what you and ab say. Verification is always missing from those posts.
I agree with bfl
Give us the names of the forrester and the land owner so we can talk to them.
Read post 122. Everything you post is unverifiable.
TATF a black hole for existing tree owners who sent money, yet it is still advertising for new ones on its discredited website. As for owner Steve Brunner and his Tropical American Tree Farms we will have to rely on first hand reports from those traveling there or privy to verified information.
I mistyped my email address in my prior post. This is the correct one: -- jstanton5@gmail.com Hopefully we will get those reports in the form of emails to me which will be distributed to others interested.
The other forum devoted to TATF on Ihub turns out to be of limited value. because it is a a semi-private sounding board for the moderator who is none other than dupedbysteve. It is censored by him. Note all the deleted messages. The moderator has a point of view opposite that of all the other posters and he has posted half of all the messages on this board while deleting those he doesn't like.
No one knows who "dupedbysteve" is, or who he speaks for, but he seems to be representing TATF's owner. If you go back to his first messages on this board-- those he made during May of last year -- he seemed to be like the rest of us, a duped investor. Then he got a refund and the messages (under his name, but authored by perhaps someone else) gradually became more and more bizarre. Now he has his own hub forum.
Here is an example of a post he deleted: "Why didn't you agree to meet 4rtrees when you said you would be in Costa Rica during January and he was going to accommodate his schedule to see you? As noted in the other ihub board he is another betrayed investor and by meeting him you were could have allayed his doubts if what you had been saying about TATF were true. See rhtrees' January posts."
Here is an example one of the limitless posts duped puts on his own forum: "I was reading the (TATF) agreement and i don't think a lot of treeowners noticed the #23-25 part of the agreement. They explain that word of mouth does not mean anything and neither does the TATF website.. Steve has only to abide by what is written in my spanish written contract. I knew that. I signed it because TATF is going to make me money."
The TATF investment has been a failure for all who believed in its promises and sent them money.
Posting on this board is free on Fridays between 4 and 5PM.
belmontx
No response to post 122 asking you for verifiable information about
TATF activity. Not possible?
Note that the moderator did not respond to the request for verifiable information to back up his claims about TATF.
Your posts contradict themselves. Any reader who goes back to your posts on http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/board.aspx?board_id=7823
will know your information is not reliable, to say the least.
All genuine investors in TATF have been bilked by this company.
What verifiable information can you give us about TATF?
Of the seven investors who have spoken on your forum all are negative about TATF. Since you, admittedly, are not an investor, and only you are positive, and you moderate the board, what verifable information can you give us about TATF? (something to back up your and Brunner's claims, something that one of us could check out)
On the other ihub board (now compelled by mysterious forces to be inactive) there were over 70 negative posters and virtually no positive ones. This board thus far is mirroring the other one with its pervading theme that Mr. Brunner's company has become a scam.
On both boards your supportive statements have all consisted of generalities and could have been written as advertisements for TATF.
belmontx
Have he and his employees returned from Monaco? Are they still in business and accepting new money for trees? Are they answering current investor inquiries and are they thinning trees? Is his health allowing wholesome and honest accounting to his investors? Is the Pope Jewish?
It is obvious that there is deception going on here by more than just the owner of TATF.
It is vital that investors file their reports with the FBI. The accumulation of reports will trigger their action.
Report at http://www.ic3.gov/complaint/default.aspx
What makes this so fraudulent is that Brunner's Tropical American Tree Farms site is still up, projections and all, and is still trying to attract more tree buyers. It was only our forums that saved StanleyB from disaster days ago when he said he was about to send the scam money for 1000 trees.
belmontx
How about CR's extradition policy? Is it as good as their export policy?
And a few days holiday in Monaco for Steve's hard working hired hands is just another example of the extraordinary benevolence of this pious and generous owner-operator-spinmeister of Tropical American Tree Farms, whose trusting investors have not seen a nickle of return, nor a word of response.