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Hi Orda,
Great points! I think you almost provided a dictionary quality example of what it means to be hypocritical. They continue to prey upon the uneducated voter as a means of covering up their logical fallacies. If you're too dumb to see the error, no one will call me on it....
One of my most favorite recent examples is Mr. O'smelly telling us that ZERO U.S. veterans are living as homeless people without a bed to sleep in. Wonders never cease, but his twisted and tortured logical method of trying to escape from the corner he put himself in was so convoluted you almost needed a road map to make any sense of it all.
I want to live long enough to see history judge this guy, it might be entertaining. Maybe he will be viewed as the most damaging "patriotic" voice in the history of modern american media hypes. After all, if you are a "true" patriot and selflessly patrol your self anointed "no spin zone" to protect us all from bogey men everywhere, then there has to be at least one republican behavior in the last ten years worthy of your ire??? What a sad commentary on how far the journalistic community has fallen. Sorry, did not mean to offend every jounalist on the planet, but no other professional media group was willing to claim him. :)
Keeler
Keeler
Blue Fin, You humor me. Whether or not he is out of office does not mean the decisions of his first seven years are at the broad brush of your personal hisrotical perrogative excluded from historical analysis. The clock of the processing the decision making abilities does not begin with their exit from said role. Just want to make sure the proposition you make is clearly understood.
Let's see, by your own logic Steven Sprague's decision making can not be scrutinized until he leaves his position of authority. Are you sure you want to go there? Or are you so far down the road on the right that you are failing to see that scholars have already judged it's current leader as a dismal failure. Easy for you to discredit their analysis(all 336 historians at once!), you've done it at least twice tonight by my count. But if as a young kitten you keep your eyes and thinking process closed to alternative realities until November, I am truly afraid you'll wake up to find a demaocrat as your next president and in an amazingly startled voice yell out "how the hell did that happen"?
Please do stop by for a polite and brief "we told you so" session. I am quite sure our leading historian (going fishin) will provide you with plenty of reading material for which to come to an understanding of why the rest of this country of ours has rejected your premises.
Until then, by all means keep on humoring me, it helps to pass yet another god forsaken midwestern late season snow storm from.....
Keeler
Hi Alea,
Very nicely stated, what I enjoy the most about entrenched positions is their inability to identify seeds of change. Two individuals can look at the same social phenomena and see multiple outcomes. Although no one can predict future outcomes with any degree of certainty, we can look at exit polling data and extract voter sentiment.
The crux of my earlier posts in the last two weeks and tonights exchange is simply that the seeds of change have already been planted. One only needs to look at the economic disconnect to see that this factor alone carries the power of a motivated electorate seeking a different approach and maybe a new vision to take on america's problems.
It in many ways reminds me of the Reagan-Mondale election. Mondale was a decent person, excellent track record but could not hold the tidal forces of political change at bay. America was emerging from a generation of perceived failure on both domestic and economic policies on the watch of the democratic party. America believed the Reagan revolution needed another term to get the job done, and remember the first two plus years of Reagan's first term were an unraveling of the stagflation of the late 70's. It really did not matter who the democrats put up against Reagan, it looks like McCain has drawn the same very short sacrificial lamb straw. The Electoral vote outcome in November will not be the landslide of 84, but it appears that if 4-8 red states swing it will be a decisive win no matter how Bill O'irrationality spins it.
Keeler
X-point.
Maybe it is because you are actively looking for the double standard? You have obviously already made up your mind which is your right. You should not be shocked to see that others here will simply point this fact out to you. Alea's reply was simple, and to the point. I only hope it made sense to you. For you see, I have seen President Bush's minister smirk. I could never vote for someone who supports an smirker.
Keeler
X-point
One quick question if I may. Could they be "right"? I am not saying at all that I agree with the position, only that I understand the realm of thought from where it has originated. I work amongst a large number of inner city poor who feel their country, their president, and their economy have left them behind. Right or wrong, it is a real sentiment that I think others who have not witnessed can not possibly come to grips with. I have watched over 5,000 middle class jobs leave our community of 150,000 people over the last six years. Don't kid yourself, those job losses have devastated our city and its families. And no, I do not think our economy, our state, or our nation is better off importing from China those same products these workers once made here. The american middle class WAS built on the fact that a quality manufacturing job offered economic opportunity to those whose other skills otherwise left them short of a white collar existence. The economic dislocation of these people is real and very painful to witness. They do not have the skills others need, and they are settling for whatever service secttor job they can find at whatever wage they are lucky enough to get.
I left college as a Reagan Republican. Others here can attest to that fact. The republican party I see today is a fraud compared to the ideals of Reagan. It can easily be argued that the current neo-con outsourcing through what they call "free-trade" has left these people behind. There is a chapter in Patrick Buchannon's (sp) book "Where the right went wrong" where he calls the Neo-cons and the Bush administration's economic policy TREASON. A chapter, I might add, that many of you should read.
One simple idea of his to keep in mind. When you farm out quality paying jobs and replace them with minimum wage service jobs you destroy the base of wages used to buy the pubic goods at the very heart of our collective wealth. A nation that doesn't make anything, is a nation without a tax base. A nation without a tax base is a nation without roads, schools, public health care, etc.. I am a free market capatalist who is alarmed at the excesses of executive pay in a time when american workers are working harder for less. This economic inequality is one part of the disabling side of capitalism that only begs for change. I think this also explains to some extent what makes Obama an attractive candidate of change. Whether you like it or not, the "system" has not worked for millions of americans. When you add to that the perception of dissaray that eminates from Washington, the seemingly unending attack on freedoms and civil liberties, and the corrupt nature of these Neo-cons, you only add ingredients to the recipe for change.
Given the nature of the past eight years. Some are already whispering, while others are shouting, that the Bush Presidency might go down as one of, if not the worst, U.S. Presidency in our nation's history. How kindly will history look back upon that which we in the present hold in such disdain. Look at Bush's currnet popularity polls to see what the data shows, it does not look good to say the least.
One of the ironies here is that Carl Rove bragged not so long ago about the permanent republican majority and the end of the deomocratic party's ability to mount any type of challenge to the republican power. My how quickly things change. I am almost humored by the Blue fins and others who think the type of response we are all witnessing to the Obama story is some type of fluke. A repsonse best delt with through the old fashion tactics of the divisive politics.
There is a perfect storm brewing in no small part to the excessive abuses of the current presidency. For all of you who picture Obama as an easy target, you obviously have not let your mind wander down that road where the democratic party launches an all out assualt on the Bush administration's failures with the "if you elect McCain you get four more years of this crap" tag line. The political commercials will almost write themselves.
Just look at how many red states are in line to be plucked off by the democrats this fall and you then see why many political scientists see the Obama-Clinton race as the only race left to determine the next president.
With regards to your more specific points, Obama is far from a perfect candidate. But given the characteristics of the three people left for the position it can be easliy concluded that he represents the best opportunity for change, and if there is one easy to identify theme amongst the electorate it is that change is very appealing to millions of americans. The interesting question for republicans to chew on is how did it get this bad this fast? They really only need to look in the mirror. Their abuses, disregard for compromise, and any last trace of respect for our core national principles could and probably will leave them on the outside looking in.
I said it weeks ago, Mr. Obama your table is ready. When Hillary can't hold Texas, and eeks out a small win in Ohio but fails to make inroads in the delegate count it will be for all practical purposes over. Does anyone here really think McCain has any chance in a debate with Obama? If you do you are not being honest with yourself. The republicans will hold their core constituencies, they always do, but they will lose the moderate middle they need to form a winning coalition. The only real question left will be the length of Obama's coattails to sweep into office a democratic congress he will find more to his liking with respect to the policy changes he envisions. Potentially a republican mighmare in real time don't ya think?
Now back to lurking. You guys are having a hell of a conversation here. Maybe I'll return after the march 4th primaries to see if my crystal ball needs more polish.
Keeler
Snackie,
As I have previously stated. You are hypoctical beyond belief. Your continued posting here just proves my point and does nothing but take up alea's bandwidth. PLEASE STOP. I have not opened and will not read your posts, do you understand that? Therefore, there is no need to hear from you one this topic. Go back to your world and leave this board in peace. I can not think of another way to say it, maybe stating that you are now violating the simplest societal norms of decency will have to suffice.
Your, what I am sure are lame, rebuttals only serve to prove my point about your bias. Once you have passed judgement on a poster they are done forever. When one of your loyal puppets namecalls or creates a post similar to mine it does not get deleated. That speaks to bias and prejudice. Will you ever understand that? It is what has destroyed your community. We could go on and on about it. Will you finally get it when one of your moderators resigns from their position on your board? Ya know, that is not as far fetched an idea as one might think. People resent this conduct. I for one consider it harrassment. You need to get handle on your need to control others and outcomes. Furthermore,this is not the place for this type of behavior.
Again, stated as nicely and politely as possible given the circumstances, GO AWAY. Your contiunued posting here on this topic serves to disrupt Alea's world, and ironically is the very type of behavior that you use to justify banning posts and people from your own board. Are you intelligent enough to see the hypocrisy contained in your own conduct? The rest of us see it quite clearly.
I wish to remain here, Alea has welcomed me to his realm. You clearly object to alea's decision because it is one you obviously disagree with. But alas, it is not yours to make.
Please, you do understand that have your very own private board to play god with, go henceforth to your own sanctuary and reconnect with your inner peace.
KL
Would the tyrannt in the room please stand up?
Snackman, I have come here to escape from your narrow minded view of the world. Would you please grant me that space? Having been banned on your board by your highness for questioning your tactics, let's just say you win Okay ole buddy? But tracking me down here almost qualifies as harrassment don't ya think? Were you some sort of repo man of thought control in a previous life? I will not read your posts, so do not direct them to me. However, I see thy desire to never be incorrect has brought you here on my heels. I seek refuge from intolerance, exactly the opposite of what you have become.
When an adult man can not tell the difference between a cultural reference and a political statement he is in my book an idiot. It is multiplied (geometrically?) by his inability to admit he has made a mistake. (BTW, on that assessment I am not alone!) Not in the insulting form of the word idiot, but in the level of intelligence implied on a standardized intelligence test. Maybe imbecile is a better "fit" from a psychological perspective. In any form, you are not competent intellectually to be managing a board. Irony, humor, creativity, politics, social commentary, etc. are ideas and concepts that most people can identify as thoughts that are often not by their mere creation automatically contained within the venn diagram labeled "attacks and slander" which is the same venn diagram that has overwhelmed your conscious mind.
Evidently, the slog has destroyed any last ounce of any sense of humor, or the ability to understand humor when you see it that you may have once had. "CM is Barack Obama" is not a political statement. It is a compliment to CM and a stupid explanation of why CM has "been too busy" to be involved with the board? Do ya get it now? Ya see, he's been running for the presidency of the United States. Uh, it has taken up his time! DUH! Any adult (or kid for that matter) with a well developed and functioning sense of humor woould see it for what it was. Or maybe you really think Steven Sprague beat up Awk in third grade. GOD HELP US ALL!
When AWK thinks higly enough of a post that he reposts it on his own board, one would think that it would tell you something about your decision making? THAT YOU OVER-REACT, and are a prisoner of your own prejudices. When you "try" to fulfill your self annointed role your emotion and bias overwhelms your ability to make a rational decision. Go ahead, ask Awk? His actions speak quite loudly don't ya think? Put that as a poll question on your board (and smoke it). On this point many (weby, go-kite, etc.)agrees with me. You are an intellectual board. You can knock on it, but it is not receptive of a new thought. Many more than you want to admit also agree, yes you have a hard job, no one denies it, but when you conduct your job with the level of malice and cowardice you become a detriment to Wave. Would you like examples? Shall we talk to Micro, Unclever, Go-kite etc...?
You don't want to debate this issue, just take a look at the malice you have fomented on the A-bob and yahoo board.
One last idea. I have never sent a threatening or intimidating private message to anyone. PERIOD. EVER. END OF DISCUSSION. Can you say the same? Who should we ask first? I know, I know, you already threatened me with the "you are not invited to my party"
non-sense. You have your playground, you have your monarchy,leave to those of us you have deemed unworthy this little crumb (no offense intended Alea!) to chew on.
Now, Snackster, lets see what intellectual grey matter you been given. There is a rousing discussion of the evolution of the western church, the middle ages and social institutions taking place on this board right now, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on the evolution of markets and capitalism as a solution to man's ills. Do you have game? I wasted enough bandwidth and alea's time to ponder the worthiness of this post. Now go away, I want to read going fishin's response to Barack's win tonight in Wisconsin.
Hi Alea,
Thanks for the welcome and the encouraging words. What I believe is happening at your home here is the development of the sense of community that used to be the hallmark of the other Wave board. I for one am thrilled with the quality and manner in which discussion takes place here. For all of your growl, and I know it exits, you remain frimly grounded in your ability to apply common sense when dealing with your guests.
The more Snackman has been criticized for his conduct the more reactionary he has become, the level of intolerance and the depth to the double standards is beyond comprehension. I see what has happened to Micro, unclevename, Go-kite and MANY others as an off shoot to the level of intolerance and repeated mindless attempts at forced group conformity and obedience. In the end game we now have three fractured boards, and the death of a once strong community. Your board resembless a kind of Switzerland in cyberspace. In the long run Snackman will indeed have a party in Vegas, but he will be a very lonely soul. If Weby or Go-kite hosted the same get together you would need to be careful not to upset the fire marshall.
The key trait that differentiates is simply respect. Weby acknowledges the self distructive behavior of the board owner and has stayed on as a moderater to try and give a sense of balance and fairness to what is happining there, but I fear in the end he also has run out of energy and sees it as a lost cause. Weby said to me this evening that the one thing he regrets from our trips to the shareholder meetings was the opportunity to meet you. We would both love to put a face to the words we have read here over the years. As the wise Weby has said on numerous occasions, the real community that once thrived there has moved underground to private phone conversations as the once tolerant board has fallen victim to an unfortunate rise of unfortunate and unproductive intolerance.
Over time it would not surprise me to see more wave investors and bright minds gravitate to your home as a corner in cyberspace where community can still take root and prosper. I may not post very often, but I love to read the dialogue that unfolds here and the insights that your collective group of wise posters are willing to share with the rest of us. I will know the transition to your home has run its course when I see CM, AWK, Weby, and others drift away from the sterile board in favor of this board where an off topic post does not meet is demise in a delete bin. The kind of posts that may not mean much to every poster, but to those on the giving and receiving end provide an ideal atmosphere to create and exchange ideas.
Weby and I both agree that we do not have the intellect to contribute at your level, but we relish the opportunity to read and make infrequent appearances knowing that we will be greated with a hello and thanks for stopping by from the host. Keep up the good work.
KL
Going fishin,
If I may are you still invested? I would assume yes, but would not be surprised if the slog took its toll long ago.
KL
Goin Fishin
"And remember-whether you fish, or work, or go ambling off on your own, you can always change your mind" Is this a tease that there may be a Democratic vote for president in your future? If not, then I guess I fall into the clueless catagory. The wife is great, the kids are growing! The beagles are beagly and the water is frozen.
A democrat is about to be given a chance to begin the long road to healing. What a world we live in when fox news has a nationwide broadcast today with the host comparing Obama to Hitler. I hope historians of a future generation call the Lindbaugh's and Coulture's (sp)of this era the traitors to the republic they truely are.
This movement is going to sweep aside the politics of fear of the Rove-Bush colaboration. The articles that you and Alea have provided are very insightful and worth the time for anyone who enjoys poitical analysis and discourse.
KL
WOW, an Obamican is born! Weby I almost fell off the couch when I read that going fishin is intrigued by Obama! Per a previous conversation from a previous time you should understand that going fishin represents a tribal almost instinctive reactionary slant to modern american conservatism (written in the kindest manner possible believe it or not). To read in his own words that enlightenment (O.K. maybe enlightenment is a stretch) has arrived via the Senator from his home state almost brought tears to my eyes as the laughter born from the comprehension of his words words rang in my head!!
As you have probably already discerned going fishin is a scholar and historian worthy of any college classroom and historical undertaking. To see the acknoledgement of the man and the movement is a very telling sign of the recent growth of the Obama movement that is transforming the American political culture. Book it, Obama is your next President of the country. To witness conservatives, who are as far right leaning as a group as going fishin have traditionally been, awakening to the realizations that the Bush/Rove world view has failed our nation can only be characterized as an amazing turn of events. The same conservatives are now also willing to acknowledge publically such failures they once staunchly defended. Suffice it to say the moderate middle has already made this disconnect with these failed policies, and as Chris Matthews said this very morning on MSNBC, there is an angry backlash vote (fueled by war politics, politics of fear, and outrageous deficits) emerging as middle american white males see their collective future hitched to the words and vision of the country's first African American president. Well all I can say is this brings to mind the famous Reagan commercial that a previous generation once saw ("It's Morning in America")and this reminds me of the same type of transforming movement that can change the course of a nation and its people.
WOW WOW WOW
-Hillary Clinton knows its over.
-John McCain is the "Mondalian" sacrificial lamb.
-Dead man standing comes to mind.
-MR. Obama your table is ready!
Mr. McCain do you think holding a press conference with 20 of your favorite over 70 geriatric crowd standing behind you only helps your opponent paint a picture of just how out of touch your party and your bid for the presidency are with generations of younger americans? The symbolism contained within is both delicious and pathetic. The next nine months are going to be exciting times! Stay tuned! Going fishin, you made my day old friend :)!!!!!!!!!!!
Keeler
As a VERY long time lurker here in this realm, I would like to appear for one brief moment to describe a sad state of affairs before returning to my safe haven of lurker status.
Just returned from a short visit to the blast furnace over at A-bob's. OH MY GOD. The divergent realities of this investment are driving people over the edge. Micro seemed to have it all together last time he visited this site. Then you drop in over there and the venom is, well lets ust say it is hard to believe that the same person could type such malicious trash. Another long has quite obviously gone over the edge. It is one thing to sour I guess, quite another to show up there for an ego stroking massage from a dysfunctional crop of corrupted thinkers.
I guess what dissapoints me in Micro's conduct is that historically he maintained a sense of dignity. That has obvioiusly dissapeared in the face of his bitterness or frustration over Wave's protracted revenue ramp up. Simply amazing that folks like CM, Weby and many others can maintain a vision of the future while others crack and fall by the wayside.
A question for you micro, did you preview what you typed before you pressed the submit button? I've read you for a very long time, and to say the least your conduct lately saddens me. You are better than that, not that you obviously care. Alea, I would not be suprised if you ever let him type a single word here ever again, as a matter of fact I would expect such censorship or protective behavior in light of the verbal abuse throw your way from micro's keyboard.
The story just gets crazier with each passing day.
Keeler
Now back to the safety of being an end node
Hi Unixguy, I want to thank you for giving me the motivation to leave my lurker status in the past. I have been aware of Wave for a few years and have followed this forum ever since a friend of mine recommended this board as a place to follow the company and its progress.
I have a few comments I would like to make, and maybe a few suggestions to make by the time I finish. There seems to be a tone that comes with just about everything you type about this company. I sometimes wonder if others see it the way I do. I notice a neutral or more balanced assessment of risk on the behalf of longs, but I notice that the same type of acknowledgement (that the company may do something right) is missing from your contributions. Now, until the recent advertising that has appeared, I felt that I did not have anything to add about Wave, or say to you about your position. I must say, even though I do not have the share positions others here do, I can see why they are excited.
That brings me back to my earlier point. With this new reality looking you right in the eye, you just predicted an almost shut the doors we are going out of business type of future scenario. I guess you are entitled to your opinion. However, I really think that of all of the outcomes that are possible, that the company would realize their first publicity and national awareness of product,through what I would consider to be two terrific partners in Dell and Seagate, and then need to wrap up its time as an idependant entity is far fetched. I admit that future trouble with sales and financing issues are indeed possible, but I would think that with the potential for sales and breakeven now closer than ever before the company could probably marshall the resources to see it through to breakeven. You, in my opinion, are unable to recognize this perspective, and it leads me to wonder if there is a larger agenda of yours at work here.
Other posters here have commented that your projections about tpm deployment, Dell's parnership with Wave, amongst many other previous predictions were all either 100% wrong or just plain biased. I can not speak to all of that history, but if it is all or even somewhat true, then I do have to question your credibility. From what I've seen over the last week I think I might buy 4,000 or so shares before the new year. Furthermore, if the others here are right, there would seem to be a demand for shares early in 08 if for nothing other than the tax sellers might want to re-enter this stock. Again, I see no recognition of these ideas from anything you have written.
Someone asked Trustusa a few questions today that I also beleive you should think about. If you are not short, and if there is no real bias, then why do you spend so much energy dwelling in the negative. I saw at least four maybe even five places where Dell provided advertising for these new products this week alone. Others here can correct me, but I understand this to be the first time this has happened in the company's history. Do you have a better understanding now of why I am so skeptical of what you have written? I will watch the story very closely over the next few months, my suggestion for you would to do the same with a new open mind. If these other people are right, this coud be a great opportunity you miss out on due to your own inability to recognize that Dell and Seagate are fundamentally more powerful than Wave, and together they have the ability to define a new market.
Unixguy, if you can show me another place where I can put 6,000 dollars today and turn it into 40,000-80,000 over the next 12-24 months I'm all ears. If you can't then let me risk my 6,000 on the backs of these partners without any further posturing from your pen.
My eyes have read the following facts recently:
1. Dell distribution of product (Dell website)
2. 20 million copies of software shipped (Wave press release)
3. Nec came on board (Collection of web sites)
4. Revenue has grown now quarter after quarter (Wave press..)
5. Seagate has publically stated that FDE is their future
6. Milllions of software seats ship quarterly
7. There is a working relatonship with Intel
8. Endpoint documentation is needed of NAC which is a service wave provides
I really could go on, but as you can see my knowledge gets much weaker when more details are needed. That said,I guess I am confused by your lack of acknowledgement that these previous points make the risk for this company going forward LOWER than at any time before today. Your pen does not demonstrate any acknowledgement that there is another possibility besides your gloom and doom forecast.
I will get off my soapbox and leave you with one idea. I suggest you consider that the cost of your being wrong here exceeds the cost of the others being right by a great deal. A short's profit can never exceed 100%, a long's profit can be exponential and theoreticlly unlimited but I'm sure you knew that already, right? The downside seems so small compared to the potential of the stock getting to five dollars in the next year. I know, I know beofre they sell the company.
Best wishes,
KLR