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setting up to be a nice play strong volume
OT I found this very interesting also
Quadrillion
By Don Bauder | Published Wednesday, Sept. 17, 2008
One quadrillion. That’s 1,000,000,000,000,000 — one plus 15 zeroes, or one thousand trillion. It is incomprehensible. And that’s what’s terrifying. This summer, the Bank for International Settlements, the bank for the world’s central banks, estimated that the face value of derivatives floating around the world is $1.14 quadrillion. Derivatives are incredibly complex securities whose value is derived from some asset such as a bond, a stock, or a currency. They are used to bet on the weather and upcoming inflation, among many things. But derivatives aren’t really assets; they are crapshoots on the value of the underlying securities — a wager on another wager. They are based almost completely on borrowed money. And all too many are held by the nation’s largest banks and investment banks — yeah, one of those places where you may have parked your money.
Wall Street is now going through its greatest crisis in years. Over the weekend, Lehman Brothers went into bankruptcy, Merrill Lynch had to be bought by Bank of America, while insurance giant AIG tottered — all this following close on the heels of the government’s seizure of mortgage monsters Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. At the center of these storms are derivatives.
Of that $1.14 quadrillion of derivatives, $548 trillion are listed derivatives, or ones that are traded on organized exchanges, and $596 trillion are over-the-counter derivatives that are basically unregulated and, essentially, unmonitored. They are traded in a chaotic marketplace in which record keeping is sloppy. Institutions that own these over-the-counter derivatives sometimes don’t know who is on the other end because these instruments have been bought and sold so many times.
Warren Buffett, America’s richest person, says derivatives are “financial weapons of mass destruction.” And that’s just what savvy economists and analysts fear: a financial nuclear reaction, with one institution after another failing after one party can’t meet its obligations. “The foot bone connected to the ankle bone, the ankle bone connected to the shin bone. Oh, mercy, how they scare!” Especially when the bones all start becoming disconnected. Early this month, the federal government seized mortgage behemoths Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. They have $1.6 trillion of debt outstanding, and derivatives called “credit default swaps” guarantee payment of that debt. Those debt-guaranteeing derivatives motivated the government to seize the entities. There could have been a chain reaction.
On a weekend in March, the Federal Reserve rushed to keep Wall Street’s Bear Stearns from failing. It was committed to $13.4 trillion worth of derivatives. That’s chump change compared with a quadrillion. But our leaders justified pouring $29 billion into the rescue because, they said, the Dow Jones Industrial Average would plunge 2000 points if Bear went bankrupt. JPMorgan Chase took over Bear and now is a party to $90 trillion of derivatives. What would happen if Morgan came asunder?
We may find out. Last weekend, two brokerages disappeared because of excessive derivatives exposure. (Two years ago, thebanker.com named Lehman “Bank of the Year for Credit Derivatives.”) Here’s the bottom line: Derivatives with names such as credit default swaps, collateralized debt obligations, and mortgage-backed securities are the villains in the problems of Bear Stearns, Lehman, AIG, Merrill Lynch, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and other financial institutions that may disappear.
The total annual output of the U.S. economy is around $14 trillion. The total output of world economies is around $67 trillion. Those who defend derivatives say that the notional (or face) value of derivatives — the $1.14 quadrillion — is misleading. The gambles between two parties net out against each other. Actually, only 1 or 2 percent of the notional value may be on the line, claim the optimists. So? Are you comforted that $10 trillion to $20 trillion could be at risk when total U.S. annual economic output is $14 trillion? Even if only a small portion of that $10 trillion to $20 trillion is actually at risk, as some claim, it is an almost inconceivable amount of money.
“The risk of a [chain] reaction is significant,” warns James Hamilton, economist at the University of California, San Diego. “The magnitude of these things is just staggering. I would have thought that the last year would have been a time of winding them down, battening down the hatches. We need to unwind these derivatives — we need to deleverage [cut down excessive debt].” But it’s not happening. “It’s more than a can of worms. It is a world full of tangled worms.”
Apologists argue that it’s not that institutions like Bear Stearns are too big to fail, it’s that they are too interconnected to fail. “But who is going to bail out the Federal Reserve? Who is going to bail out the federal government?” asks Hamilton. “Everybody wants to put their head in the sand. The derivatives are so complex. Sometimes the institutions don’t know what they’ve got.”
Indeed, the essence of white-collar fraud is contrived complexity. Derivatives are concocted by Harvard and MIT math Ph.D.s so that nobody can understand them.
Hamilton says they should be regulated. “If you are too big [or too interconnected] to fail, then you are too big not to be regulated,” he says. Following the Bear Stearns calamity, there have been moves to inject some orderliness in the over-the-counter derivatives market. There has been discussion of regulation.
“The possible compounding chain reaction to the failure of one or two major financial institutions is real and concerning,” says Arthur Lipper III, a Wall Street veteran who now lives in Del Mar. “The possible problems are vastly greater than any single or group of regulating bodies has an ability to manage.” Lipper suggests one route to reform: board members of institutions borrowing heavily to gamble on derivatives should not be indemnified against personal responsibility. Such a move “would have the immediate effect of financial institutions becoming more conservatively managed.”
Ross Starr, economist at the University of California, San Diego, says that if one party can’t make its obligation, “It causes the whole house of cards to come down. It’s not that the instruments themselves pose a systemic risk but rather that they redistribute financial losses in an unpredictable way. If it causes illiquidity to the rest of the economy, we have a problem. It’s something we haven’t quite figured out.” Amen. How can we figure out something we can’t comprehend?
The derivatives are so complicated that any regulators will have a hard time understanding them: “There’s not a lot of transparency there,” says Starr. “Regulators will not be able to focus on that. It’s a source of concern. We have not adequately come to terms with this.”
More than ten years ago, University of San Diego professor of law Frank Partnoy wrote the first exposé of derivatives abuses, F.I.A.S.C.O.: Blood in the Water on Wall Street. At that time, derivatives were not big potatoes. He admits to being surprised that the notional value has climbed to a quadrillion dollars. In a recent article for the Financial Times of London, Partnoy says that today’s derivatives crisis is similar to that of the 1990s, except it involves much more money. The crisis that forced Orange County into bankruptcy looks small by comparison with the mortgage write-downs of big financial institutions today.
He sees the end of this calamity on the horizon. “We will emerge from this crisis, and then another will hit in a few years,” he says, greatly because of moral hazard: if we keep bailing out the gamblers, they will continue to take egregious risks with borrowed money. For several reasons, including the fact that they are privy to information that others don’t have, Wall Street operators will prosper. “Finance industry employees will continue to outearn just about everybody,” says Partnoy.
Much of their great wealth is coming from you.
i think they front so certain people can out before it tanks. because most of the time it tanks before a lot peoples stocks clear on a r/s and by that time its to late
yeah im just looking at level 1 and was showing 25 bid and 75 ask then 55 bid and 76 ask. level 2 looks better hehe
looks like a 25 to 50 cent spread on it this morning. The key now could be the shareholders holding the shares with a death grip could cause this to rise high when ever the company goes looking for new investors and pr some news
if i remember right i think i remember reading something on here about he told people on this board 3 months later after the prs were released that someone else released them prs and he retracted them. It could be wrong though because it is hard to remember all the bs that has been said on this board. Anyway he is playing a big boy game with little boy pockets.
Also if i remember right people were saying he was a 30 something chicago entrepreneur and now he is a 50 something work from home dad and imo lost his street cred when he started messing around with tchl. I still don't think he is stupid though and still believe he will try and do right hopefully, because imo their is still a lot of evidence on this board from about a month before he took over until now thats worse than a fish out of water flip flopin around
yeah but you know he is going to have to bring in value pretty quick or people will dump this fast just to keep from loosing their whole investment
pretty much. Most people have to buy a clean shell for 3/4 to 1 mill for a clean shell. He bought a dirty shell for 2 grand and to be unrealistic lets say he spent 1/4 of a mill to straighten it up which i believe is highly unlikly. Looks like to me he is cleaning it up at the shareholder's expense. He should have bought back shares and retired the shares. Imo you will do good to break even on this even buying at .0001 before the split
that o/s number on them other sites have been around since the ellis days. What the ibox says is what has been pulled from the filings and emails frank has sent to people on the board from almost a year ago which I believe to be more accurate. Short interest I have no idea about. Imo bring value to the company and the pps will move up alot easier. Try and move the pps up without value and what happen last year will have to happen again which is, a crap load of shares will have to trade to move this thing
this is from ibox not counting what frank stated in his filing of a increase in a/s to 60 bill
Authorized Shares: 5,050,000,000 Shares
Voting Shares: 3,720,241,722 Shares
Preferred Shares: 50,000,000 Shares of Class A and 50,000,000 Shares of Class B (Represents 1 vote per share.)
Outstanding Shares (OS): 3,620,241,722 Shares
it said from 2002 to 2005 I think voip come along last year. So give them another 3 years and they may pop him too lol
I have had very good sucess in pennies too. I have been in this stock for a year and a half now and my average is around 0002 or alittle less and did not sell at 0008. It really doesn't matter rather they buy fast or slow in this stock because it takes a lot of buying to get it to move because the float and the os are the same and very big. If i remember per frank something like 3.6 bill. So a lot of people who have already been here for a couple of years are not going to wait a few more years which imo will cause a lot of flips to take place and delay the climb up even more. But only time will tell
yeah it's going to take a lot to get us back to 0.0009 like last year
Historical Prices
Date Open High Low Close Volume Adj Close
2007/07/31 0.00070 0.00070 0.00060 0.00070 65,766,229 0.00070
2007/07/30 0.00080 0.00080 0.00060 0.00070 123,761,987 0.00070
2007/07/27 0.00060 0.00080 0.00060 0.00080 100,558,020 0.00080
2007/07/26 0.00070 0.00080 0.00050 0.00070 97,175,855 0.00070
2007/07/25 0.00060 0.00090 0.00050 0.00070 316,973,947 0.00070
2007/07/23 0.00060 0.00090 0.00050 0.00080 236,628,608 0.00080
2007/07/20 0.00050 0.00060 0.00040 0.00060 114,755,675 0.00060
2007/07/19 0.00060 0.00060 0.00040 0.00050 105,689,565 0.00050
2007/07/18 0.00060 0.0050 0.00040 0.00050 223,620,041 0.00050
2007/07/17 0.00080 0.0050 0.00040 0.00050 627,342,045 0.00050
2007/07/13 0.00040 0.00060 0.00030 0.00060 391,885,568 0.00060
2007/07/12 0.00030 0.00040 0.00020 0.00040 953,323,015 0.00040
2007/07/11 0.00020 0.00020 0.00010 0.00020 83,139,000 0.00020
2007/07/10 0.00020 0.00020 0.00010 0.00020 68,497,010 0.00020
2007/07/09 0.00020 0.00020 0.00010 0.00020 111,507,500 0.00020
2007/07/06 0.00020 0.00020 0.00010 0.00020 177,080,161 0.00020
2007/07/05 0.00010 0.00030 0.00010 0.00020 683,104,021 0.00020
2007/07/04 - - - - - -
2007/07/03 - - - - - -
PR EMAILS HAHA. Frankie boy get your stuff together i'm tired of wait'n. Don't go down the wrong side of the fence or it might bite you in the butt
Of course hes not going to sell now with the sec being involved in this. Just too many things not adding up anymore. Taking almost a year to figure out the old cpa would not sign off, then raising the a/s, then selling off a company, then becoming coo of a company, getting 150 mill in shares, so being a shareholder in wnsh i just don't see anything positive yet except for a r/s not being done yet
there is no reason for 60 billion shares end of story
lol thats funny. I was In tons of live investor chat rooms last year with 500 to a 1000 investors per room. The micro cap investors know about It. Most made a profit last summer and moved on, MIRC program has a lot of investor chat rooms, not including all of the messege boards this has been posted on, so I don't think Its that much of a secret
Winsted Holdings, Inc.: 8-K out. No wonder he bought it for 2 grand the 2005 books can never be signed off on because the records are gone imo thats what I'm getting from all of this
don't think so, them prs were there until oct or nov of last year, frank took over last july
yes its been over a year now for a lot of us and I think a lot of us do think It's time to plaster a bunch of PRs out. It's bad enough he hasn't even put out a pr to the public about him taking over and telling us his goals, OH wait yeah he did and then retracted them 3 or 4 months later and claims he didn't release It, Or maybe he said disregard them I can't remember I've heard so much BS from this company (or should I say the Birdies)hard to remember everything word for word
50 grand? on a company that pretty much wasn't a business but in selling stock and doing reverse splits. I don't see where the mess is. Its was pretty much out there for everyone to see.
imo this might end up a decent return at best no jack pot or lottery ticket.
If he is going to build value it will take along time and alot of companies coming in with a major increase in the a/s. Being a web designer I'm also not impressed with any of the websites these companies have I mean come on at least have some nice websites in place, who in the world would even want to talk to them with cheesy crap sites like i've been seeing
GLTY, im still holding a few shares but definitely not loading the boat
the only dd worth looking at now is the filings and new pr. All that old dd of byers and google earth and fluff pr stuff found last summer when the voip run was going on is pretty much useless imo
I still think frank is trying to do the right thing and this will turn into probably a long term real investment before its over with. But what sucks is I would rather see it run from here to a penny than having it try and run from .40 cents to say 10 or 20 dollars to have to make good profits. I thought this might be another gold nugget for me. I hit a nice one in 2000 for 2600% on a sizable position but I just don't see it happening here and imo its still way to risky to sink a big chunk of money into it
I guess the big question is do we hold and take a chance on it not tanking or dumping? If we do get 1 for 2000 split that would put the price at around .40 cents at the current price and people holding 10 million shares would end up with 5,000 shares. Looks like we would have to get some really good merger news right after because a lot of pinkys tend to tank after the split. After reading the last paragraph in THE AMENDMENT section and all of EXHIBIT A, and reading ART'S link it does look like it is coming IMO
decisions, decisions
I like the oil company idea the best. wonder which one it will be if it happened? I see 1719 companies on the this page alone lol
http://www.alacra.com/company/private-companies.asp?industry=55
True, but their has been nothing usual about this thing anyway. Frank has had major success in the private sector so it seems. If he can become successful in the public sector we might see a lot of unusal things to come in this pinky, called the rare 1%
The key is, bringing one heck of a private company public with lots of value
looks like frank has bitten off more than he can chew. i want to know why all the prs are gone. i want to know from him in a public pr why the the buy back, spin off, the appletree aquires winstead prs are gone.
just added more to my position e/
i was worried about how many shares was out there as to how far this share price could go but im starting to see how big the value can be through this post thanks steve
yes i filled, end of the year should be interesting im still holding all my 1s 3s and now 4s
got filled. but now why wouldnt they fill with aon? don't make since with many mms on the ask
they still have not filled any of my 4s, why would they not fill i have a order for 4 mill in
yes i guess they are asleep
there not filling mine whats up?
anyone having a hard time filling 4s?
ERUC coming off bottom, up listing, chart looks good
all aboard ERUC train, looking to up list, chart trying to make a smiley face
ERUC chart looks ready to run, looking to up list