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"Significant" and "undetermined" = A LOT MORE THAN "THEY" thought we had.
There are also certain loans that JPM/FDIC thought were "bad" and didn't want to touch, and are related to court cases of property owned by Washington Mutual, not Washington Mutual Bank, in which people have to pay up or forfeit.
This = even more value.
Also, does anybody know how accounting works?
If a company purchased an asset in 1989 for $400 Million, and the asset had a useful life of 20 years, and the company uses straight- line depreciation, would that asset purchased in 1989 have any book value left in 2009?
If anybody has some time, check out this post I put together.
"Comparing Apples to Oranges, or Comparing Crooks to Oranges?"
or Crooks to Oranges?"
When GOLDMAN SACHS announces "buys", "sells", and/or "holds", it
always turns into a game of SIMON SAYS, and there should be no
confusion as to who plays the ROLE of SIMON.
Independent Auditor's Report – Comparing Crooks to Oranges
This might be overdoing it a little bit, but I figured I would give it
a shot.
I chose to select Goldman Sachs and Sunkist for my comparative- analysis, and there are significant differences between them, and this partial analysis starts to answer the question
“Who audits the auditor?” .
I believe that WE need more regulation in the banking industry and Wall Street. There is going to be billions and billions of dollars made in the stock market over the next several years, dare I say trillions. Unfortunately for me, and a lot of people like me, don’t have money to invest right now, and therefore can’t take advantage of low, extremely-undervalued stock prices right now like the BIG PLAYERS
do. By big players I mean JPM (bought out Bear Sterns(twice) bought $300 BILLION of deposits and assets of Washington Mutual Banks for the SUSPICIOUS AMOUNT OF $1.9 BILLION when the FDIC seized Washington Mutual Inc’s banks, and have a long history of forcing companies to “fail” so they can buy them up), Goldman Sachs, Citi, AIG, BAC, Morgan
Stanley, and other well-capitalized investment companies. There are
certain names that will always be around, and unfortunately that is not because of their superior audit reports. These types of companies can now loan money from the Fed at a 0% rate and all of the regulation in the world wouldn’t be able to provide an accurate audit of that money being lent. We can all make the same % points if we get in at the right time, but “they” make a lot more actual money because they buy millions of shares. When stocks start to go up, these guys will literally be paying each other with what is essentially free money. Look at the ridiculous amounts of shares and securities Goldman Sachs buys, owns, and sells, and you will see that an audit of Goldman Sachs would be almost impossible and that a verifiable audit of yearly
activity would take years to accomplish and I personally would never sign my name to an audit of many companies, and Goldman Sachs is one of them.
With regards to their respective Independent Auditor’s Reports and Analysis, there really weren’t major differences regarding the verbiage used and the presentation of the analysis. Here are a couple of quotes from each of the companies’ documents. Both documents include references to accepted standards and principles and seem to be written from the same template. However, there are major differences in the companies that each document represents.
Here is a quote from the Independent Audit Report on the Goldman Sachs Website:
http://www2.goldmansachs.com/our-firm/investors/corporate-governance/...
“The Board has determined , upon the recommendation of the Corporate Governance and Nominating Committee, that each member of the Committee is “independent” within the meaning of the rules of the NYSE and the SEC.”
Here is a quote from the Sunkist Website that is very similar.
“We conducted our audit in accordance with auditing standards
generally accepted in the United States
of America.”
Here is a link to Sunkist’s Independent Auditor’s Report on the
company website.
http://www.sunkist.com/about/annual_report/2007pdfs/IndeAuditorsRepor...
It is pretty simple and straight-forward language because it is a pretty straight-forward business. How many oranges did you grow, how much did they cost you, how much did you sell them for, etc.. They’re oranges.
“The Company accounts for certain revenue and related costs derived from the marketing of fresh fruit based on the gross amount billed to a customer. In our opinion, U.S. generally accepted accounting principles require that such revenue and related costs be accounted for based on the net amount
retained. Accounting for revenue and related costs on a net basis would have resulted in a decrease in both revenue and related costs of $690 million for the year ended
October 31, 2007.”
I could load you up with links that accuse some of the big players of some questionable things, but I will not do that. What I will do, is provide you with links to very credible reports and will try to share some of my results from a little research at a few different sites that I consider to be credible, one of them being a link to www.secinfo.com
. I find it to be a very valuable resource.
After extensive research, I come to the conclusion that there are major differences between Sunkist and Goldman Sachs, so if I were to truly compare these two companies,
I would be comparing crooks to oranges.
Goldman Sachs does not sell oranges. They sell securities, and they make money on them when the go up AND when they go down. If Goldman Sachs tells people to sell Citi when the stock was at $15 /share, people will, other people see the stock price start falling and they sell(aiding in the drop), meanwhile, companies like Goldman Sachs are selling- short and betting BIG that the stock price will go down. Once
the price per share of C gets down to $4, GS buys options, loads up on cheap common-stock, loads up on super cheap preferred shares that pay dividends, thereby making real money when stocks go up and down. Who wants to invest in a company whose stock price went from $16 down to $3? A lot of people, and they are the same people that have enough
money to buy up a lot of shares.
The following is an excerpt from a DEF 14A SEC Filing, filed by
GOLDMAN SACHS GROUP INC/ on 2/27/2006
http://sec.edgar-online.com/2006/02/27/0001193125-06-039420/Section12...
I have pasted a couple of quotes from the link below and they are pretty standard.
“The Board of Directors has determined, upon the recommendation of the Corporate
Governance and Nominating Committee, that each member of the Audit Committee is "independent" within the meaning of the rules of the NYSE and the SEC. The Board of Directors has also determined that each member is financially literate and
has accounting or related financial management expertise, as such qualifications are defined under the rules of the NYSE, and is an "audit committee financial expert" within the meaning of the rules of the SEC.
Management is responsible for the preparation, presentation and integrity of Goldman Sachs' financial statements, for its accounting and financial reporting principles and for the establishment and effectiveness of internal controls and
procedures designed to assure compliance with accounting standards and applicable laws and regulations. The independent auditors are responsible for performing an independent audit of the financial statements in
accordance with the standards of the Public Company Accounting Oversight Board (United States),
expressing an opinion as to the conformity of such financial
statements with generally accepted accounting principles and auditing management's assessment of the effectiveness of internal control over financial reporting. The independent
auditors have free access to the Audit Committee to discuss any matters they deem appropriate.”
Let me start by saying that it would be very time consuming for one auditor, let alone a team, to do a full audit of a company like Goldman Sachs. Their investment portfolio is ridiculously large, and it is complicated even further by factors such as short-selling, call- options, put-options, and a wide variety of other things. Investment Banks/Firms have inventory, and lots of it. If you think it is difficult to keep track of inventory of a non-investment/non-finance related industry, just be glad that you don’t have to track how many stocks you have, when you bought them, how much you bought them for, how much you sold them for, how many dividends were paid, how much interest was paid, and the list goes on and on. I have provided you with links to SEC data that show the holdings of Goldman Sachs. Try selecting a security and tracking the Goldman Sachs holdings in that security. It is getting very interesting because with all of the buyouts/mergers that have been taking/will take place, it gets difficult remembering who knows who, who owes who, who owns who, who invests in who, etc. etc. This is a period in time where the rich are going to get much, much richer. The banks are going to make a lot more money in the next several years than they lost in the last several.
There are literally senior preferred stocks in companies that are widely held and that pay dividends that can be purchased for pennies on the dollar.
Just be glad that you don’t have to sign your name on the audit papers.
Goldman Sachs:
Three 11/19/08 Filings AND an 11/14/08 Filing?
Filed 11/19/08
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/886982/0000769993-08-001035.txt
Filed 11/19/08
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/886982/0000769993-08-001031.txt
(Geez)
Filed 11/19/08
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/886982/0000769993-08-001033.txt
(Yowza!)
Filed 11/14/08
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/886982/0000769993-08-001027.txt
It sure seems that The Goldman Sachs Group Inc has been pretty busy
regarding certain securities!
http://www.mffais.com/institutions/125469/
Filed 12/30/08
http://www.secinfo.com/$/SEC/Registrant.asp?CIK=886982
http://www.secinfo.com/dnFu6.t126.htm (Try and find what changed. Good
luck!)
You tell me what they had, when they had it, when they got it, how much they paid when they bought it, how much they got when they sold it, how long they held it for before they sold it, how much profit they gained from the sale, how much of that profit was taxable, how much of that taxable income was paid, when it was paid, etc., etc.,
etc.
If you look hard enough, you will see who is invested in "them", and
who in-turn invests in "them".
The same companies own just about everything, that's the way it's been, and that's the way it will stay.
My point is that GS is a BIG player.
They are not the only BIG player.
When one wins, they all win.
When one loses, they all lose.
“They” will never let “them” lose big, and
When they all win…..
THEY WIN BIG.
$$$$$$
Goldman Sachs is like the house in Vegas. They will always win. You can have some good hands and play well, but most people don’t win like companies like Goldman Sachs.
Now is one of those times in history where it pays to bet on each other if you’re “them”.
“They” all have long-lasting, vested relationships , and they are all invested in each other, and “they” will be the ones making all of the money on the sales of securities over the next decade. I’m talking thousands of percentage points. I’m talking thousands of hours worth of accounting. The stock market is the biggest business when it comes to exchanging money on a daily basis, and it is my opinion that more regulation on Wall Street is necessary.
All in all, I think I trust the Sunkist auditor more than I trust the Goldman Sachs auditor.
Happy New Year!
FYI - I could have more heavily emphasized that Goldman Sachs trades many different kinds of securities which require a lot of accounting, and that they have a LOT of INVENTORY, which is hard enough to TRACK by nature.
I would only trust the numbers of the Sunkist auditors if they were truly given all information pertinent to a company's financial activities. If a company/board does not share all information with an auditor, the trustworthiness of an auditor becomes irrelevant because the auditor would be "trusted" with misleading, incomplete, and inaccurate data and information.
***Also, there is no way that Bonderman just walks quietly off into the sunset with "fresh" shares if the future is not bright for Washington Mutual Inc.
I'd say good luck, but this has nothing to do with luck!
Also, the book value of their property, which currently is "undetermined" on many counts, is something that is rarely talked about. If a company bought property 10-20 years ago, that property is worth MUCH MORE than the book value of such property.
This claim has been withdrawn as WMI has already paid them.
The interesting part, is that the claims are for parcelS of
REAL
ESTATE.
I wonder how many other properties WMI is paying property and real estate taxes on.
If I'm not mistaken, real estate and property are ASSETS, that generally have market value that is much higher than book value, especially if the property was purchased long ago.
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229090121000000000022.pdf
The refund is going to be a lot BIGGER than $2Billion my friend, especially when the NOL gets added on.
Also, there is agreement from the Noteholders Group AND the Creditors committee with regards to WMI's objection to #8.
A little bit of oh, and a WHOLE LOTTA YEAH BABY!
I'd say good luck, but this has nothing to do with luck!
NEW COURT DOCS
Please share your thoughts!
1/22/2009 0812229-585 0580 Motion for Admission Pro Hac Vice of David H. Braff to Represent JPMorgan Chase & Co.
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229090122000000000003.pdf
1/22/2009 0812229-581 0576 Motion for Admission Pro Hac Vice of Bruce E. Clark to Represent JPMorgan Chase & Co.
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229090121000000000020.pdf
1/21/2009 0812229-580 0575 Motion for Admission Pro Hac Vice of Stacey R. Friedman to Represent JPMorgan Chase & Co.
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229090121000000000019.pdf
1/22/2009 0812229-583 0578 JPMorgan Chase Bank, National Association's Response and Limited Objection to Motion of the Debtors for an Order, Pursuant to Section 502(b)(9) of the Bankruptcy Code, Bankruptcy Rules 2002(a)(7),(f)(l) and 3003(c)(3), and Local Rule 2002-1(e), Establishing the Deadline for Filing Proofs of Claim and Approving the Form and Manner of Notice
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229090122000000000001.pdf
1/22/2009 0812229-584 0579 Response of the United States Trustee to the Debtors' Motion for an Order, Pursuant to Section 502(b)(9) of the Bankruptcy Code, Bankruptcy Rules 2002(a)(7),(f),(l) and 3003(c)(3), and Local Rule 2002-1(e) Establishing the Deadline for Filing Proofs of Claim and Approving the Form and Manner of Notice Thereof [Docket No. 549]
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229090122000000000002.pdf
1/22/2009 0812229-586 0582 Motion of the Debtors Pursuant to Sections 105(a) and 365 of the Bankruptcy Code for Authorization to Reject Certain Unexpired Leases of Nonresidential Real Property
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229090122000000000005.pdf
(58 pages)
1/22/2009 0812229-586 0582 Motion of the Debtors Pursuant to Sections 105(a) and 365 of the Bankruptcy Code for Authorization to Reject Certain Unexpired Leases of Nonresidential Real Property
1/21/2009 0812229-579 0574 Notice of Proposed Sale of Debtors' Interests in Certain Investments Pursuant to Investment Sales Procedures
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229090121000000000018.pdf
1/21/2009 0812229-582 0577 Bridge Order Pursuant to Section 365(d)(4)(b) of the Bankruptcy Code Extending Time for Debtors and Debtors-in-Possession to Assume or Reject Unexpired Leases of Nonresidential Real Property
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229090121000000000021.pdf
1/21/2009 0812229-576 0571 Adversary Case 09-50039 Complaint by Nadia Youkelsone Against Washington Mutual, Inc., et al.
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229090121000000000002.pdf
1/21/2009 0812229-578 0573 Corrected Notice of Resumption of Meeting of Creditors Pursuant to 11 U.S.C. § 341(a); to Resume on January 28, 2009 at 10:00 a.m.
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229090121000000000017.pdf
1/21/2009 0812229-577 0572 Notice of Document Entered in Error [Docket No. 554]
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229090121000000000016.pdf
I love Mary !
Well I equate value with this, and am still hanging on to all of my Ks. I paid .22 on average for all of mine. I'm would lose half of my money if I sold, but there is NO CHANCE of that happening.
I "lose" quite a bit of market value every time it goes down by .01 , but I am more than fine with that.
I am waiting until I receive some dividend payments that are payable today, and I am going to put the money into more WAMKQ.
The Ks have been manipulated more than any of these stocks, and justifiably so.
There is absolutely no good reason that WAMUQ goes on runs and WAMKQ doesn't, except for the reason that WAMKQ is being manipulated by the MMs.
Can anybody say HOARDING?
WAMKQ is still the best of the WMI securities, hands down.
I'm not going to get back into that argument, but it is the clear winner, especially given the price.
It is a waiting game, and congratulations on those that have had the patience to wait this out.
It will be worth it !
Happy New Year!
Debtor's Motion for Order Pursuant to Section 1121(d) of the Bankruptcy Code Extending Exclusive Periods for the Filing of a Chapter 11 Plan and Solicitation of Acceptances Thereto
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229090120000000000011.pdf
It's because "they" wanted everything that Washington Mutual Inc had and they are upset because Washington Mutual Inc didn't fold.
"They" thought they know what WMI had and thought they were getting all of the "good stuff". As we all know, they didn't know what WMI had.
I wonder if "they" even knew that WMI never assigned market value to their assets.
Book value can be very deceiving, and in this case, the "hidden" true value of WMI's assets, along with the cash , the NOL, and the capital loss, served to protect WMI.
Hey, atleast we are starting to get more and more news coverage, even if the coverage is done by a bunch of morons.
WoooooHoooooooo!
"DJ Washington Mutual Blames FDIC Takeover For Plan Delay
By Peg Brickley
Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
The former parent of Washington Mutual Bank blames federal regulators for stirring up uncertainty about who´s entitled to the billions in cash stashed in its accounts during the thrift´s takeover.
Washington Mutual Inc. (WAMUQ), WaMu´s former parent, is due to file a Chapter 11 plan by Saturday. On Tuesday, it asked a bankruptcy judge to move the plan filing deadline to April 24, blaming the chaos left by the September 2008 seizure and sale of WaMu.
"That seizure almost completely stripped [the parent company]
of...employees and business records," lawyers for Washington Mutual Inc. wrote in papers filed in the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Wilmington, Del.
"It also caused significant uncertainty about the legal status of some of [the parent company´s] most significant assets, including several billions of dollars originally on deposit" with WaMu and an affiliate, company attorneys said. (This article also appears in Daily Bankruptcy Review, a publication from Dow Jones & Co.)
The parent company filed for Chapter 11 protection one day after its corporate crown jewel was taken away by regulators and sold to JPMorgan Chase & Co. (JPM).
Now, JPMorgan, federal regulators and WaMu creditors are all
threatening to lay claim to more than $4 billion in cash that was in Washington Mutual Inc.´s bank accounts at the time of the takeover.
The controversy over the cash and brewing trouble over other big assets, such as a potential tax refund, arose partly because the deal to sell WaMu to JPMorgan left room for argument about what the investment bank was buying.
Tuesday´s filing by the parent company says the regulatory takeover of WaMu "complicated what would otherwise be a straightforward restructuring or liquidation," so it needs more time to formulate its Chapter 11 plan.
For the first 120 days after filing a Chapter 11 petition, only a troubled corporation has the right to propose a restructuring plan. The deadline can be pushed back by a judge if the company demonstrates a reason for needing more time.
Washington Mutual Inc. says that with debts of more than $7 billion, its bankruptcy case is "among the largest ever filed."
-By Peg Brickley, Dow Jones Newswires; 302-521-2266;
peg.brick...@dowjones.com
Click here to go to Dow Jones NewsPlus, a web front page of today´s
most important business and market news, analysis and commentary:
http://www.djnewsplus.com/access/al?rnd=... You can use this link on
the day this article is published and the following day.
(END) Dow Jones Newswires
January 21, 2009 12:48 ET (17:48 GMT)
Copyright (c) 2009 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. "
A little bit of oh, and a WHOLE LOTTA YEAH BABY!
Nothing eluded me.
Thanks for attempting to explain BK law to me, but no lesson is needed on my part.
In most cases you would be correct, but not in this case.
Also, I certainly am not going to take any advice from someone who is investing in Lehman Brothers preferreds!!!!!
Lehman has over $600 Billion in debt and shareholders have a 0% chance of recovery.
Washington Mutual Inc preferreds, like WAMPQ, are the preferreds to invest in.
You are wasting your time and money investing in any of the Lehman Brothers stocks!
CAN WASHINGTON MUTUAL INC SUE THE FDIC?
They not only can, they most certainly WILL.
LAWSUITS WILL BE FILED.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE4DB173DF93BA25751C1A965958260&&scp=1&sq=FIRST%20BANCORP%20OF%20TEXAS%20LAWSUIT%20FDIC&st=cse
(if the link doesn't work search for First Bancorp of Texas and FDIC and you'll read about the settlement)
I think this is what you were thinking of...
Toscafund - ***This is not old news !!!!!
Filed 1/16/09 :
http://www.secinfo.com/drTA7.sv.htm
It is normal for them to file, but it is not normal for a company to buy this many shares of a "bankrupt" company.
They dumped their old shares, and bought back in at the cheap prices.
I feel they paid about .08 per share for the shares they currently hold.
They own 6.2% of the Washington Mutual Inc common stock.
They filed a notice to sell , trade, or otherwise transfer WMI stock in court, which they only had to do once, and they sold and bought WMI stock after their court filing.
Here is their initial notice of substantial ownership.
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229081110000000000004.pdf
Here is there intent to sell, trade, or otherwise transfer.
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229081110000000000005.pdf
If you take the time necessary, you can look at SEC filings to find out when they held, how much they held, how much they paid, etc.
Some people, like the idiots over at yahoo, feel that this NEW SEC FILING, is old news and that the shares held by TOSCA are the same shares they always held and that this is "old news". NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH.
So they held shares on November 10th, filed a notice to sell, trade, or transfer on November 10th, and by December 19th, they were back in with over 108,000,000 shares.
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1439289/0000914760-08-000204.txt
Too many people are too quick to judge, and when presented with FACTS, they simply state that the info is outdated or that this is "old news". Not true! This is very relevant and important, and should help people see that they made the right decision by making a play at WAMUQ.
Happy New Year!
I do understand the difference between an exchange event and a default event, but I do not believe that a default event has occured.
In most cases, entering into BK would constitute a default event, however, this is not "most cases".
If a buyout occurs, the Ps can indeed be converted into commons, which would still result in a HUGE PAYOUT, but will not result in $1,000 per share.
The max WAMPQ could be worth would be 114.8 shares of commons.
So, let's pretend that a buyout of $4 /share occurs.
In such a situation, WAMPQ would be worth about $459.20 /share (114.8 x $4) This is obviously still a great buy, because if the above situation happens, one would see over 100 times their initial investment if WAMPQ was purchased for $4/share.
You don't have to agree with me and are entitled to your own opinion, but this is the deal. I still hold WAMPQ, and will be buying more, but I do not believe that we will see $1,000 per share of WAMPQ ever. Anyone who thinks we will needs to do better research.
Happy New Year!
I agreee that BIG DOGS are holding our shares. In fact, many of them dumped their old shares and are now holding "fresh",
cheap shares.
We do have BIG attorneys at the helm, and anybody who thinks that WMI doesn't have grounds for a FC claim is truly insane.
I agree with Bopfan regarding many of her positions, but some of her arguments don't jive with reality. I have no doubt that she has legal experience, but I would be careful not to take her word as gospel. She simply stops posting if someone actually challenges one of her positions, which is fine, but should be an indicator that she does not know it all, even though she acts like she does.
I am still holding Ps and Ks from a while ago, and just bought more Us on Friday @ .045. (dumped my previous lot purchased at .028 for .07 during the last "run")If it dives below .04, I will buy more.
It is good to "be back", but I am limited to only 3 posts a day for my "probationary" period, so if I don't respond to someone's post, that is why.
Happy New Year to all of youse!!!!!
Commons will not be cancelled.
Please do some research on TWKGQ.
This is a case in which the commons and preferreds are not going to get wiped out.
This case has been going on for over 6 years and they were in much worse shape than WMI, but the commons and preferreds are not going to get wiped out.
Equity committees will be denied if there is no need for one.(which could be either because there is no equity, or because the equity holders have nothing to worry about)
"COMPANY CONFIRMED COMMON STOCK TO SURVIVE..."82. In opposition to the
Equity Committee Motion, the Debtors state:While the reorganization contemplated by the Debtors may appearcomplex, boiled to its essence, the Debtors do not intend to takeany action that would affect TGL Common Stock, TGL Preferred Stockor LSH Preferred Stock. Indeed, as Mr. Arpad admits, 'all classes of equity in TGL and [LSH] are currently expected to survive.'Debtors' Objection to Equity Committee Motion, para. 13[Docket number 404]"
On April 19, 2004 Alexander Arpad filed his motion for appointment of an equity committee.
All three Debtors filed their objection.
Court denied the equity committee motion since the Debtors do not intend to take any action to affect the common and preferred stock. Arpad then agreed claiming that the equity shares will survive.
Page 37 http://www.sidedraught.com/stocks/TRENWICK/LaSalle%20Cover%20Presenta...
http://www.royalgazette.com/siftology.royalgazette/Article/article.js...
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=33854114
Bopfan feels that a default event has occured regarding WAMPQ,
however, she still recommends buying WAMPQ.
This does not add up.
If a default event occured when WMI entered chapter 11, then all shares of WAMPQ purchased after the supposed default event would technically be worthless.
You can't have it both ways.
If there was a default event, then only pre-bk shares have value. If there was not a default event, then all shares that are currently trading have the same value.
I personally believe that a default event has NOT occured and that WAMPQ will continue to trade until a merger/buyout occurs or until WMI exits bankruptcy.
If a default event had occured, WAMPQ would not even be trading anymore and would have stopped trading immediately after the default event occured, just like the below-listed securities that underwent an exchange event.
No such event has occured regarding WAMPQ. All shares are worth the same, be them pre or post BK.
"Note 5: Washington Mutual Preferred Funding
On September 25, 2008, the Office of Thrift Supervision concluded that an “Exchange Event” had occurred with respect to the following securities (the “Securities”):
•
Washington Mutual Preferred (Cayman) I Ltd. 7.25% Perpetual Non-cumulative Preferred Securities, Series A-1 (to be exchanged into depositary shares representing Series J Perpetual Non-Cumulative Fixed Rate Preferred Stock of Washington Mutual, Inc. (“WMI”));
•
Washington Mutual Preferred (Cayman) I Ltd. 7.25% Perpetual Non-cumulative Preferred Securities, Series A-2 (to be exchanged into depositary shares representing Series J Perpetual Non-Cumulative Fixed Rate Preferred Stock of WMI);
•
Washington Mutual Preferred Funding Trust I Fixed-to-Floating Rate Perpetual Non-cumulative Trust Securities (to be exchanged into depositary shares representing Series I Perpetual Non-Cumulative Fixed-to-Floating Rate Preferred Stock of WMI);
•
Washington Mutual Preferred Funding Trust II Fixed-to-Floating Rate Perpetual Non-cumulative Trust Securities (to be exchanged into depositary shares representing Series L Perpetual Non-Cumulative Fixed Rate Preferred Stock of WMI);
•
Washington Mutual Preferred Funding Trust III Fixed-to-Floating Rate Perpetual Non-cumulative Trust Securities (to be exchanged into depositary shares representing Series M Perpetual Non-Cumulative Fixed Rate Preferred Stock of WMI); and
•
Washington Mutual Preferred Funding Trust IV Fixed-to-Floating Rate Perpetual Non-cumulative Trust Securities (to be exchanged into depositary shares representing Series N Perpetual Non-Cumulative Fixed-to-Floating Rate Preferred Stock of WMI).
In accordance with the terms of the documents governing the Securities, the Conditional Exchange of the Securities occurred on Friday, September 26, 2008 at 8:00 A.M. (New York time). The documentation governing the Securities contemplates that at the time of the Conditional Exchange, each outstanding Security was intended to be exchanged automatically for a like amount of newly issued Fixed Rate Depositary Shares or newly issued Fixed-to-Floating Rate Depositary Shares, as applicable, each representing a 1/1000th interest in one share of the applicable series of preferred stock of WMI. If and until such depositary receipts are delivered or in the event such depositary receipts are not delivered, any certificates previously representing Securities are deemed for all purposes, effective as of 8:00 AM (New York time) on September 26, 2008, to represent Fixed Rate Depositary Shares or Fixed-to-Floating Rate Depositary Shares, as applicable.
WMI and its advisors are currently assessing a number of legal, accounting and tax issues related to the Securities and the transactions related to the Conditional Exchange. Because of these unresolved issues, WMI has not yet reflected the Conditional Exchange and/or its attendant transactions on its financial statements.
WMI intends to make a public announcement upon resolution of these issues. The foregoing notwithstanding, assuming that the Conditional Exchange had been completed in accordance with the terms of the relevant documentation, on a pro forma basis WMI’s financial statements as at November 30, 2008 would reflect a credit to shareholders’ equity of approximately $3.9 billion upon issuance of the new classes of preferred stock of WMI that were reserved for issuance upon the occurrence of the Conditional Exchange, as well as a corresponding loss of approximately $3.9 billion upon conversion of the Securities. "
Wrong
Wells Fargo Mutual
Hahaha. Very funny contractor10940!
WFC = Wells Fargo & Co. and the
& Co. could soon = Washington Mutual Inc.
: ^ )
Attention Common Shareholders and Preffered Shareholders!
When I use the words we and ours
I am referring to Washington Mutual Inc.
The $4.4 billion is ours.
http://www.reuters.com/article/managementIssues/idUSN1530488520081015
The $20 BILLION NOL is ours, so the commons aren't going anywhere and therefore niether are the preferreds.
We are not going waste the NOL.
Possible suitors like WFC and JPM are very much interested in the NOL.
Please see the link about JPM raising capital recently
http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idINN1840614020081218?rpc=44
(also please see this link talking about the BIG LOTS of WFC being traded after hours)
http://finance.google.com/group/google.finance.611408/browse_thread/thread/5dd76e93a7cdb49c#
Practically none of the debt is due in the short-term.
(here is over 12% of it right here)
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229081204000000000037.pdf
We are currently operating as we speak, will continue to do so, and liquidation is out of the question, unlike LEHMQ.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/14/business/14miller.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
http://finance.google.com/group/google.finance.611408/browse_thread/thread/798651a3b630742e
We have the same restructuring team as HealthSouth
(please see the article on their preferred convertible stock)
http://pr-gb.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=55956&Itemid=34
We have plenty of assets AND the judge is on our
side, and she will let us do what is in the best interest of the company. (aside from the investments, the market value of the assets > than the book value)
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/12/16/ap5828501.html
The OTS knows they f#cked up.
http://www.banklawyersblog.com/3_bank_lawyers/2008/11/row-row-row-your-boat.html
We know that JPM and the FDIC are guilty.
http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2008/09/29/how-jp-morgan-raised-115-billion-in-24-hours/
http://pressmediawire.com/article.cfm?articleID=19691
http://www.i-newswire.com/pr224984.html
and we have the REAL DEAL[/B] taking the helm in a month.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/19/us/politics/18obamaweb.html?_r=1&ref=politics
I have thousands of links, have done hundreds of hours of research, I could keep on going, but I won't.
The bottom line is that the only 2 options are:
Continued Operations(which is already happening)
or
BUYOUT / MERGER
WTF is everybody so worried about????????
Have a safe and happy holiday season!!!!!
I would say good luck, but
this has nothing to do with luck!
Here is a little sanity check : ^ )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casting_out_nines
I am right there with you buddy.
I have 16 bucks in my checking account right now.
I eat sandwiches, can't even afford Burger King.
I have been unaffected by the economic "crisis".
You made a great move hopping on the Washington Mutual train.
I would say good luck, but
this has nothing to do with luck!
Happy Holidays!
Best post of the day by far WaS!!!!!
Way too funny my friend!
hahahahaha
That was exactly what I needed!!!!!!
Happy Holidays!
If you all think you are going to get a full A/L Report on Friday or before, you all are crazy!
Not going to happen my friends, so there is no use getting all excited.
I appreciate your enthusiasm, however, at this time it is still premature.
I'd say good luck, but
this has nothing to do with luck!
Thanks for the great link profithunter!
I know the technicals are sound, now if only we could get Knight off the bid and the ask this thing would do what it wants to do.
Oh well, the lower the pps the better for people who still have money, but I am all tapped out and am ready to watch it run.
I'd say good luck, but
this has nothing to do with luck!
Court Docs Uploaded 12/16/08
Minute Entry:
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229081216000000000007.pdf
ORDER approving the information access agreement between WMI and JPM:
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229081216000000000009.pdf
ORDER approving the information access agreement between WMI and the
FDIC:
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229081216000000000008.pdf
Notice of Withdrawal of Appearance and Request for Removal from
Creditor Mailing
Matrix by Dechert LLP on Behalf of Brandes Investment Parnters L.P.
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229081216000000000002.pdf
IBM Representation:
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229081216000000000004.pdf
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229081216000000000003.pdf
FDIC Representation:
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229081216000000000001.pdf
ORDER modifying automatic stay to allow advancement under insurance
policies:
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229081216000000000010.pdf
Order Under Bankruptcy Code Sections 105(a), 1102(a)(3), and 1103(c) Regarding Creditor Access to Information and Approving Retention of Website Administration Agent
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229081216000000000011.pdf
If there is no liquidation, then there will be no recovery.
All of this talk going around about recovery for the preferreds is inaccurate.
To say that preferreds will get a % of their LV in a chapter 11 case is misleading and inaccurate.
If there is no liquidation, assets are not split up, not distributed to preferred holders, and therefore, talk about a theoretical "recovery" for the preferreds is speculatively inaccurate and I interpret such talk as misinformation.
Each of the preferreds have their intrinsic value, and the current pps does not reflect that value. This will change, but the bottom line is that the preferreds will trade as is.
It will be very interesting to see the next filings of these funds, and others, as all relevant data such as date of purchase, # of shares purchased, price paid per share, etc., is included in these reports.
It is worth the time to analyze each fund seperately, and compare the holdings data contained in each report.
Anyone who says that the information is outdated is wrong.
Here is a partial analysis of the holdings of 2 funds.
One can see what and when a fund was holding with minimal effort.
Here is SEC info regarding the holdings of Fir Tree:
Do an analysis of the data, do the math, and share your thoughts.
Here they have the commons and PQ:
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1056491/0001315863-08-000186.txt
Here they don't have any commons, and only sold 2804 shares of PQ and
kept the rest:
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1056491/0001315863-08-000246.txt
When the next report comes out it will show that they have since
purchased more commons.
They are smart, they took a loss on the commons with plans to buy
back
big later.
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229081118000000000002.pdf
Here is SEC info regarding the holdings of Barclay's:
Here is their filing in court:
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229081117000000000009.pdf
Here are the last 3 reports:
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1139734/0001139734-08-000033.txt
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1139734/0001139734-08-000032.txt
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1139734/0001139734-08-000013.txt
They didn't sell off everything, and it is more than likely that they re-loaded after they sold some of their "old shares".
Check it out!
Or JPM comes to the realization that they could squash a whirlwind of negative pr that is sure to come once the mainstream media is allowed to talk, pick-up the assets that actually make money for WMI (as we all know that WaMu was great at losing money),
obtain the $20 billion NOL that they desperately
need, obtain a holdings company, and
puts an end to this entire situation.
If this happened, it wouldn't be the first time that JPM paid a per share amount 1 time, and then later paid a more
reasonable per share amount the second time.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/110586-jpmorgan-chase-poisoned-by-bear-s-5-000-counterparties
I'd say good luck, but
this has nothing to do with luck!
FYI- There are only so many people that could make such a thing happen, and it is much easier than many think to drill down exactly who it was that pulled said money from the banks.
The truth will come out my friends.
Happy Holidays!
I am going to go out on a limb and say that there is a
0% chance that a full disclosure of the As and Ls
comes out on the date that people are expecting.
I COULD be wrong.
Eat 'em up while they're cheap boys!
Happy Holidays!
Hey marayatano.
I was doing some recreational reading and came across the below link that gave me added hope.
It is nice to know that we have the same restructuring team that these guys had.
And guess what, the stock in the article is a convertible that is still trading and paying divis.
http://pr-gb.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=55956&Itemid=34
: ^ )
Who is working on the Washington Mutual Inc case again?
http://pr-gb.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=55956&Itemid=34
You got ripped off!
JUST KIDDING!!!
The best thing for all of us is for the MMs, and whoever else is involved, to continue to play their games. It allows everybody to benefit from the low prices. It is possible to make more money by selling some shares off low in order to drop the price. Some people don't feel that the action of 1 or 2 people can affect the pps, but
I beg to differ. I have done it on more than a couple of occasions and have watched it happen with the Ps and the Ks. If a couple people sell of shares below the bid, it
does make the price go down because the MMs will buy those shares being sold low. There are games that investors can play too if they are willing to lose a little bit initially. If the Ks are trading at say .15, and a few people sell off some lots at say .10, then the pps will drop to and stay at .10 and/or go lower, which opens the floodgates for cheap shares for all. I am not kidding at all.
I know I've said it before when the Ks were at different prices, but load up while you still have the chance
because these prices won't be around forever, even if it feels like they will.
Anytime you can pick up a preferred share for a fraction of 1 dividend payment, you know you got a good deal.
I would say good luck, but...........
this has nothing to do with luck!
[||PEACE||]>
I'll tell you what Jestiron, I hope you are right about that.
If there really was a battle for WMI between those 2 or anybody else , then that would = happy days are here again
I personally feel that Bonderman was forced to resign. If he wasn't part of the program with respect to the plan that is being put together, then it is more than possible that he was forced out. It is impossible to reason with someone who is unreasonable, and if he was being unreasonable to the point of interfering with the plan, then proper pressure could have been applied to force him out.
I hope I'm wrong and hope your right....................
What's happenin' brother?
I wouldn't give any weight to what that guy says.
He clearly has motives, and for a supposed lawyer, the guy sure seems to come up with a lot of theories that have no weight whatsoever.
bofan, hahaha
The guy is nuts if he doesn't think that the judge is unlikely to allow an extension on the A/L. A delay on the A/L is forthcoming my friend so consider yourself notified.
As far as the $4 billion goes, yes it is WMIs and yes it is still in JPM's bank. One could say that WMI and JPM are
"getting along", but my personal opinion is that WMI is purely posturing about the A/L and about the $4bil. WMI knows exactly what their assets are and you bet your @$$ they want the money out of JPM's bank, but it is all part of the game.
The "information access" or sharing or whatever you want to call it between WMI and JPM/FDIC appears to be going smoothly, as does everything. However, once all documents and records have been "shared"BOOOM JPM/FDIC are going to get blindsided by Washington Mutual, and deservedly so.
Stay far far away from anybody who is talking "nice" about JPM. I have seen posts where people are defending JPM stating that JPM and WMI are in this together, they have to work together, and JPM wants what's best for creditors, shareholders, WMI, blah blah blah blah blah
Talk like that is foolish, as if JPM cared about the WMB creditors, which are the same people they have to do JPM business with, then they would have executed a fair buyout several months ago. They did not, and that is because JPM only does what they think is best for them.
F JPM and F anybody who defends their actions.
IMO, everything you see is distraction, misinformation, and misdirection, and just when JPM and FDIC think they are out of the woods, they are going to get hit with BIG problems.
It is not fun watching market value shrink like b@ll$ in an icebath, but pps will ultimately be fine, and it is going to be BIG FUN to watch the $#!t go down.................
Nice article, and yes, bankruptcy can be a good thing, and in the WM case, WM truly is under the protection of the court.
However, the worst thing for the country would be a bankruptcy by F or GM
Such effects would spill over into way too many sectors and I feel that there is a 0% chance that GM and/or F will declare bankruptcy.
Not going to happen.
Good PR for BK, maybe, but a BK for the autos would do
MAJOR DAMAGE to the economy.
Your statement is misleading.
WAHQE is only first in line to get paid if there is a CH 7
liquidation.
This is a ch 11 case, not a ch 7 liquidation, and therefore the
priority of who gets paid is not relevant.
If it were a chapter 7 case, all post-bankruptcy shares would be worthless, but this is NOT a ch 7 case.
Do your own research and make your own decisions, and do not base them on statements coming from a stranger like itd !
There is no payout for preferred shares forthcoming. The all have their inherent value, and the current pps does not reflect the value of each share or the value of the company.
You know they want more inventory, but is it for the "run" or is it because they are smart, hoarding, and holding?
Either way, the lower the pps, the better for everybody.
Have a great day!
The true bottom is here and I think it is almost time.
Look at the 13-day chart.
I don't think trading is going to cease on these.
When "it' happens, it happens overnight.
Until then, I think the next special K run is right around the corner. The MMs see all of the orders coming in. Pretty consistent green volume pumping through, and plenty of people that supposedly "want" to buy, but won't bid at or above ask.
Their loss. If I want an extra 2,000 shares, I always bid more than the current ask to push the action. I was the one that moved it up to .17 this afternoon with 2,000 shares. Once I did that, the orders started pumping through at .17.
This puppy does trade, and that is a good thing. It wants to move more but some people are still a little hesitant. As I said, MMs see how many people are trying to buy and the gaps are going to change from pennies to quarters soon enough, and you know what happens after that.
There were plenty of people that didn't get filled that wanted to and will have to chase it up sooner or later.
3 months is almost up my friend.
I will be buying into WAMUQ again, but I am going to wait until it's as cheap as possible. If I have to pay more than 3 cents for it, so be it. Until then, I hold nothing but special Ks : ^ )
Thanks for the charts buddy!
I would say good luck, but this isn't about luck.