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DudeBug -- Thanks for your quick analysis of prelim report based on my comments. Much appreciated. I guess this is a case unlike any other!
Michael -- My thinking is that this board could have written that preliminary report. we know all the allegations already. The only good new IMO is that being stated in a document like this, they have to be addressed at some point. While I am no expert on examiner's report, I would have at least expectd more numbers whether good or bad for us. I thought a preliminary report included some type of conclusions, to be expanded upon in a final report. This one contains nothing. If the examiner isn't going to include anything until his final report, today's hearing will have no substance. If he doesn't submit final report until Nov. 1, can TPS trial begin before then, since that is one of the things being investigated.
Oh, well. I guess we get at least another two months for the members of this board to either enjoy or put up each other's company!
Can anyone speculate on factual issue at dispute in EC depositions on pages 5 and 6 of ghost document UZ graciously linked to?
Can her statements later be considered lying to Congress, just like Roger Clemens is now on trial for?
Guess Susman was busy yesterday -- against David Boies no less!
http://www.dailybulletin.com/ci_15957759
Hopefully he gets that wrapped up, so the Dodgers can know who will write their checks and Susman can back on the attack against Rosen.
erevno -- Let it dissipate. No one cares to read the truth anymore. These last few years have become a struggle for so many to survive as opposed to the hope to dream and far exceed what those that paved our way had.
I am now to the point that I am thankful for those on this board that have still fought (through DD, letters, comments, etc) for justice. Now if THJMW will just do the right thing and rule for fairness, we will get our money. If we get the $8 per share so many believe, hope, or guarantee, I'll be a millionaire. After 2 years of being in this stock, watching our government and our society heading for destruction, I will give Susman every bit of money I get if he can get Rosen, Dimon, etc, the jail time they deserve, as well has having ALL of their money taken away to pay back shareholders for ruining so many lives.
I think I'll vacation from the board for the rest of the week with the long weekend coming. My 3 kids all have football games throughout the week, before finally starting school next week. GLTA this week and again thanks to those who invest great amounts of time to present facts and highly respected opinions to this board.
Catz -- No negative comment to you intended. Actually the opposite. I agree with you that Rosen is exceptional. I just am at this point relying on THJMW to stay true to her word, which in my opinion is not to allow him to try to argue that blank piece of paper. (though I think he will try) I just pray that Susman is the one representing us at that time in the courtroom.
Your insight is always appreciated by myself and very thought-provoking for the board!
With so much negativity coming in, I just wanted to again state my positive belief that Rosen SHOULDN'T win with what he has now!.
Thanks again Catz!
Catz -- Is Rosen good enough to argue with a blank piece of paper? That's IMO what he is doing with the DS/POR. There are no numbers. He can say that if the DS/POR doesn't pass the end of the world will occur. That may lead someone to tend to let it pass if they think the world will end, but the facts are still facts. How can a judge pass something that basically doesn't even exist?
Again in my opinion, and it appears to be in agreement with many, the examiner will say he doesn't have everything he needs. Whether he says it is coming slowly or he is getting stonewalled, I don't know. I think Hochberg needs to show up on 9/7 with suboenas in hand. THJMW needs to say if these are not accpeted then contempt charges will come very soon, without a hearing needed. She should then strike the DS down and allow other proposals while the examiner continues his work. She should also move the TPS trial up to October 1, so it can be started before examiner finishes his report, unless of course he gets an extension which I am fully expecting
Catz -- It may be my twisting of words, or semantics or something, but if THJMW is not ready to deal with the DS now ( I take that to mean it is incomplete), how can she on 9/7, since no revisions are allowed. Shouldn't she have to shoot it down, even if everyone but EC is still on board (I highly doubt TPS will be)?
clawmann -- If examiner's findings are under presented under seal, can a confirmation hearing begin without them being opened? If the examiner has either the only numbers or numbers that differ from Rosen, etc., then what happens, especially if under seal?
bobbyp2010 - I believe you can go to the banruptcy court website and there are procedures for filing motions. I highly doubt that any weight would be given to those of us that aren't attorneys. I would assume if the court did hear an objection, that it would OK if whomever filed it could call into court and argue with Rosen by phone. I think that more than likely at the end of the case, THJMW will go back and review the fees and see what is appropriate and disallow the rest. I don't know if a list of objections like the one for the first few versions of the POS POR would have any weight, but woould be interesting to see them all documented. Plus, we could all be sent a copy of a multi-volume bill from Rosen to the estate, hopefully just in time to throw into a campfire in my backyard.
777 -- From your depositions comment, I am curious as to what happens if this actually occurs and depositions produce nothing. Eventually SOME nombers will have to come out. If WMI/JPM/FDIC won't produce them, that leaves EC/TPS/Solomon/Examiner. I have to agree that the other parties won't be able to object to them without raising some serious eyebrows from the judge. The case can't go on forever. Assuming this POS POR/DS gets shot down, I would assume that EC would file one once they had numbers. Assuming the numbers are what we think they are, wouldn't it have to be approved, since everyone involved would be paid? How does FDIC vote -- Do they get one vote? Do shareholders get to vote each of there shares or each shareholder 1 vote? If anyone would object to a settlement where everyone gets paid, how can anyone object? If there are objections, I assume THJMW can approve it anyway.
William48 __ Great Post! One question: If these valuations are not found by September 7, in your opinion, do you think examiner will ask for more time, pushing evrything for confirmation well beyond November 1, or will depostions keep it on schedule, with examiner just filing reports later than October 1 or 7, or whatever date he was supposed to be done?
Fish -- Great Post! Two quick questions:
1. Can examiner request for trustee before Sept 7., so that it may be heard in court and have trustee hopefully granted at that hearing?
2. Since it appears that at least some of this case is headed for court, can the jusge say something like. Here we are in court. Let's see the documents. Oh, no documents?. I rule in favor of TPS, for $4 billion?
777 - Would TPS ever settle before trial? It still looks like so much damage if a trial occurs where there are no numbers. Is it possible that after 9/7 examiner's preliminary report, WMI/JPM/FDIC may be more eager to settle, including TPS, not for full $4 billion, but maybe a little less, just to avoid a trial?
UZ -- I'm sure this ? has been asked many times in many ways, but using your response -- How can DS/PORv.5 be anything but junk since there are no values of scecrities TPS is looking for, no listing of assets, nothing?
BK2010 -- That won't stop MMs if they feel like running it down a little!
Reminds me of Nostradamus. EOM.
Edit -- I think MARTA may be 9/7. Will examiner give any kind f update tomorrow, or wll he not even be present.
I think the MMs are running it up just before the hearing. Tomorrow afternoon will be interesting
.168 Euro , which I think is about .215 US
Almost makes you think this JPM/FDIC fiasco (conspiracy) was planned for numerous reason including to possibly guarantee an election victory.
dmceng -- Can that possibly changes since according to some, the sale was never finalized, meaning all dates on that type of thing can be altered as well if someone can convince a judge?
Biz -- If what we now beleive about the sale not being finalized and the FDIC has wiggle-room so to speak to change things, with what has already come out in court and what is being examined by Hochberg, isn't the FDIC now OBLIGATED to wait for all the facts to come out and supply anything that they have to make sure the facts are brought out, so that a fair deal can be completed?
If the FDIC now hides information, I would think the only legal thing they can do without giving up all the information they have is to simply negate the sale in its entirety. Otherwise, if they don't complete a FAIR sale, are they knowingly committing fraud?
Oilstrike -- Somehow I can see all this happening. It will end up being a $300 billion dollar transaction for $1.9 billion. Then reversed without actually knowing what was sold in the first place or what it was worth. JPM will keep profits they never should have had. Numerous criminal activities will be swept under the rug.........
.......And I get audited by the IRS for doing a stock sale of stock I had 12 years ago and the brokerage firm told me how to calculate everything... improperly according to IRS...... all for about $200.00 profit.
SlyOne -- Your information below:
FDIC saying " We will not disclose the assets, current valuation or closing papers until after BK is over." They are protected by law (aggrh!) not to reveal the financial condition of a bank.
Is this what FDIC is saying or is it what THJMW agrees with? If she agrees with that then one of two things IMO can happen:
1. this case is pretty much over (not in our favor) unless there is a basic whistleblower lurking somewhere that has the information. If FDIC never released it, either JPMC better have or WMI better have, or we are screwed.
2. Without assets, no POR/DS can be approved, IMO. This case would then last forever.
DudeBug -- From the article:
WaMu, the thrift, has some $13 billion worth of unpaid bond debt to cover. The Chapter 11 plan proposed by former parent Washington Mutual pays only the parent company's bond debt.
If that were true, I hope someone tells Willingham. I can't see him doing all this only to be left out of the money on something like that, but I guess stranger things have happened.
gypsy -- Would you happen to know if all subpoenas are submitted to the court docket before the 5 days limits kick in, or will this stuff just happen without us knowing it until after the fact?
VOODOO -- My question sort of expands on yours. I don't know that the examiner can do a half-a** job. Let's say he only finds a portion of the assets. Let's also say Solomon provides numbers that double what examiner finds to that point. Is it then examiners duty to use the numbers, or at least make Solomon prove them before he uses them, or can he just ignore them?
That would bring you question into play.
If his whole thing is to get the evidence and someone provides it to him, I would assume he has to follow-up even if that means asking for more time if needed.
Now, what is Weil, etc allowed to argue? Can they say that Solomon's numbers are wrong? With the fact that they still haven't produced a list, can they say something like, JPM didn't get that asset, we don't know where it is? Or does the examiner have to find it all, then let them argue it out after his report is filed?
Now I see why the pps is not skyrocketing. Nobody has any idea of all the twists and turn this can still take. Many people mention September 7 as our do or die. That is a scary thought, but it would seem that after all that has happened in this case, that arguments will be occurring long after that.
Can examiner post any findings before 9/7?
Have they ever submitted a list of assets to show numbers for a DS/POR that would even suggest it is ready for confirmation? I don't think they did, so why is JPM guy (I think) even talking confirmation?
Rats -- Forgot about the hearing tomorrow. Should have added shares Friday.
rramirez82 -- How much do you think THJMW will put up with when JPM/FDIC start bring up protective orders for every document? At some point she is either going to have to limit examiner or totally let go of his leash. Otherwise, we will be here for years, yet again. Or we she simply say after many protective order requests , 'OK, we went through this with the initial discovery, now here we are again, still about discovery. You will give the examiner what he wants because I will rule against any objection you submit?"
XOM -- If this type of thing is true, is it something they can recalculate to get its true worth, or will the examiner put in a report. This was very more work on someone's (FDIC) part, but it is impossible to recalculate since it was done during a time of great peril and the nation needed JPM to help?
NASCOW -- I have been trying to figure this out definitively for some time. At this point, there is is no proof of A vs. L, other than those I think they are 8K statements which don't take into account all the assets most of us holding believe exist.
Is it the examiners job to find exact numbers for A vs. L, or to just say that they agree or disagree with POR? If examiner believes he doesn't have accounting of EVERYTHING, he will IMO be forced to either ask for more time or say he isn't getting incormation he needs. How long the game can continue after that, I don't know.
If examiner doesn't find in our favor, I'm not sure if court proceedings could come next, if Susman still hold evidfence of fraud. In court, Dimon, etc may be forced to testfy, whereas here they may push the examiner as hard as possible to not testify.
Again, I don't thik anyone here can more than guess as to what will happen in the next month.
nursejeff -- My honest opinion on why no jump in pps on examiner is that most think we are still going to be here for a long while. Think being the key word. None of us know what to expect for sure. If examiner sides either way, I don't know what appeals are available, etc. This is uncharted waters for a BK this big. The big dollars are either already waiting like us, or are attempting to make money and come in at what they beieve to be the last minute. I think the bigger key is that there are not many legitimate large sells at this point either, so most don't believe any bad news is pending either
DMCENG -- I agree with your post and several others that IMO very succinctly prove that we should be in the money. After reading several examiners reports as some basic DD to know what might happen here, I come away with the following:
I feel that the examiner will see at least some of the things that we conddier rather "odd" very easily (VIsa, Wind Farm, selling for $1.9 billion, etc). What am I wondering if that somehow when all is said and done, either the ability to undo everything or to compensate those justly that are wronged will be very difficult and have portentially unknown consequences on the economy. If this is the case, will the tide begin to flow in the direction of a quiet settlement with some creative explaining to make everyone look good -- Or will somehow everything that was done, while flirting with or even crossing the line of illegality, was done with the nation's interest at hand -- therefore everything will be left the way it is, which means we could end up with nothing.
I don't even know if that can happen, but the quietness of everything taking place now with the examiner, IMO allows for an almost endless number of possible outcomes that aren't as black and white as I see them.
Having said all that, my gut feeling is that those that came in post seizure will turn a profit.
Any thoughts from the board?
forest -- I think it's the exact opposite. If they can't find documents, then whatever Solomon comes up with ($30 billion, may be number Nelson threw out) or the good Dr. who came up with something like $140 billion. Or as one of our more knowledgeable posters replied to one of my other posts -- We can just make up our own and send it to the courthouse for the examiner. If it's the only one they find, they'll have to use it until Weil, etc can disprove OUR numbers!
drkazmd65 -- If no such list exists, can't Solomon say, this our list of assets, what they were worth then and now and give them to examiner? If no other list exists, shouldn't they have to use the best available guess they can get?
Question for the board -- Let's say in September examiner says he needs more time. Can Susman then say, this took longer than expected, can we discuss Shareholders meeting while we wait, or is any discussion of anything done until examiner is finished? Obviously confirmation hearing will wait until exainer is done, but does shareholder meeting? TIA