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bban, I am absolutely in agreement with you but you have to admit jpm got away with it. do you agree with that.
all imo
bban, so what, it's rico, go ahead a prove it. not one banker indicted for the financial crisis, jpm, goldman, citi, bofa etc.. all fraudsters based on the synthetic cdo scam and not one in jail. So you think that anyone is going to get in trouble for starting rumors that caused a run on the wamu bank.
it sux but no one cares about wamu except a couple of hedge funds and some escrow holders.
all imo
fwh, you are telling me that none of the escrow dd'ers made a copy of the most important document in the history of escrow dder speculation of 151 billion being returned, lol
all imo
meat, how soon?
meat, fdick also said, and I'm paraphrasing: IT IS UNLIKELY THAT JR'S AND SHAREHOLDERS WILL RECEIVE ANY PAYOUTS FROM THE ESTATE.
That is fact.
all imo
fwh, you are wrong, in no way did jpm turn over 151 billion minus expenses to the fdic. the fdick stated they have 2.5 billion to pay off wamu debts, they also stated, jrs and shareholders out of the money, that is fact.
what you guys are doing is taking 1 line item that supposedly says 151 billion wamu ..... and assuming that is real hard cash turned over, are you in la la land.
regarding the banking regs, jpm has returned a couple of hundred billion to other fed reserve banks because of a change in cap banking regs, it says nothing about wamu cash being turned over. that is fact.
keep dreaming that millions are coming your way.
all imo
sorry, meat, you never said, 40-60 billion, one of the pro escrow boys did, so you think 2-10 billion, more reasonable but still not going to happen.
all imo
fwh, that is the difference between many of you and I. No, not anything is possible. Some of you want to make this bk sound like it was the most catastrophic event of the last 2 centuries.
For 99.99 percent of the people wamu was a bank that was insolvent, a bank that was so levered in the subprime market it had to be sold, a bank that was not stable because of a run on bank deposits. That is all it is to most.
Do I agree, absolutely not. To this day, if Rotella and Killinger were smarter and more cunning, wamu would still be alive and who knows, jpm may have been in a much different place, ie, a much smaller bank that the feds had to dump a few hundred billion in to survive, but because of Jamie, snake oil salesman, dimon's luck, he persuaded hanky pank paulson to seize wamu to save jpm. JPM and all the others, citi, bofa, goldman were so caught in the synthetic derivatives fraud they all would have went under if not for the feds. WAMU HAD ZERO SCDO EXPOSURE, THAT IS WHAT ROTELLA TRIED TO EXPLAIN TO THE FEDS BUT IT WAS TO LATE.
Problem is, 99.99 percent of the people don't care one bit about wamu.
That is what is giving jpm and the fdick cover, ie, allowing jpm to steal whatever assets there were in wamu holding.
It makes zero sense to me that any assets will come back without a lawsuit being filed. Then you are talking 10-15 years before you see a penny, now what law firm is going to go out on a limb and sue, with jpm deep pockets, thus, that's why no suit has been filed on escrows behalf.
sorry, jpm wins, wamu escrows loose.
all imo
meat, let's see who is right by 2018. is that a long enough time frame for you. yes, I remember, you said 40-60 billion, and where did that number come from, is that fact or are you speculating.
regarding the wamu bk, susman met his objective, wamu share holders who signed the release got a little somethin, somethin, so he earned his money from the estate. susman probably did not burn a bridge with jpm or weil gotshal either, that met his objective as well. As much as I hate rosen, I do have to say, that weasel talked his way out of lie after lie in court and the judge let him get away with it. So now look at him, how much has he billed the estate. Can someone in the know please refresh my memory, is it several hundred million?
so tell me meat, who is representing escrow marker holders now. any billable hours from susman that would indicate that he is fighting for the 151 billion or 40-60 billion or for that matter, 1 billion. You guys throw billions around like it's not real money. You do realize that 100 billion is about equal to one years worth of jpm earnings.
I can't wait for the headlines, wamu escrow holders and a few select hedge funds get 40-60 billion back of holding company cash. JPM and fdick have been managing these assets off book for years on behalf of former wamu share holders. These monies came out of the ashes of the bankrupt wamu holding company. A party is being planned for wamu escrow holders to be held at jpm headquarters. lol. Does that even seem possible, really. Come on, get real.
all imo
meat, no merit, wrongo, you just don't understand the dynamics. It is very simple, no lawsuit filed claiming huge damages equals no assets of significance coming back.
Oh sorry, I keep on forgetting that jpm and fdick have been working for years stewarding those wonderful wamu holding company assets and are so excited that they will be turning over 151 billion soon, of course minus expenses. I understand, jamie, snake oil salesman, dimon called susman to see what color balloons he should order for the party jpm is going to throw wamu escrow holders. I also heard that Brain Rosen is going to mc the party and special guests will be hanky pank paulson, sheila, clueless one, bair, and of course the star of the show jamieboy dimon. There may even be a surprise guest, rumor has it that jamie dimon is going to nominate kerry killinger to the "to clubby to fail" club. I can't wait, my escrows are going to make me rich.
On a more serious note, GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER WMIH AND MAKE THAT FREAKEN ACQUISITION AND MOVE TO A REAL EXCHANGE. DO NOT SELL OUT TO THE INCOMPETENCE AND DISHONESTY OF KKR WHO HAPPENed TO LOSE OVER 5 BILLION DOLLARS IN 2 YEARS ON A RIDICULOUS OIL PLAY.
all in my opinion and mine alone, can't wait to meet everyone at the party.
come on boris, you know why the receivership has not been closed and yes, jpm did buy the bank for 1.888 billion and over the past 7 years, sliced, diced, laundered, washed, sold, gave away and stole all the wamu holding company assets. Once jpm pr'd the 30 billion in the rubble commercial paper info jpm knew they were free and clear, all the dders who thought they understood the infamous 151 billion line item in the jpm 10k are more than likely wrong.
My take, commingled books between the wamu holding company and bank gave jpm the green light to steal what they wanted and also gave them the green light to try to pass the buck on liabilities.
Sad but true,
all imo
fwh, one thing for sure they are not working in behalf of a few wamu escrow holders. fwh, have you ever been involved in trading bk stocks before, have you ever witnessed a scum like rosen.
all imo
bkshadow, so is this the infamous "red" number listed in the jpm 10k that all the escrow loving dders think is going to be theirs. curious on your opinion.
all imo
fwh, other then 2.5 billion as stated by fdick there is no more money at fdick, they stated as such in june or july, bban could tell you exactly.
al imo
fwh, you make a lot of good comments but this one, come on, no law firm does any substantial work without being paid, especially in this type of situation. there is no contingency agreement between susman and the estate.
all imo
fwh, 40-60 billion, ok, if there are about 15 billion max in claims to pay all the way down to escrows, why has it not happened yet. what is the delay. fdick would have settled with db and paid them in full, they have no skin in the game. there was never a doubt that the money is owed to db, the doubt was is it jpm or fdick responsible.
all imo
gary, I remember that, imo that is exactly how we got the nols. Who is working now for the escrow holders in the negotiations. Pick one.
1. jpm
2. fdick
3. susman
4. some other entity
5. the judge
tell me, who is fighting for those assets. you can't think that they are going to come back without a fight and those that think 1, 10, 25, 100, 150 billion is sitting at fargo just waiting to turn over to escrows, wow, how naive.
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fwh, that is an interesting point, but who do you think is negotiating on your behalf. It's not susman because he's not billing major hours if any at all.
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jestiron, not true. You want to get the lawsuit filed as soon as you have evidence that assets were conveyed inappropriately. No judge would say that because claims are still outstanding hold off. Does that really make sense to you. Think, the damages in the lawsuit would drawf what the outstanding claims are, just ask the dders, THERE'S 151 BILLION MINIMUM.
all imo
yes meat, my posts are my opinion, just like the dders speculate that there is 151 billion out there of wamu holding company assets. Just speculation on their part as well. They see one "red" line item and the dders minds go into over drive. I believe there were assets stolen but maybe a couple hundred million could be 100% traced to the wamu holding company. I still think the reason that jpm was balsy enough to disseminate the 30 billion in the rubble pr is because the holding company books and bank books were such a mess and so commingled it would take a decade to undwind them and without a clear path to victory, jpm thinks they are in the clear.
Those that think that jpm paid for that commercial paper above the 1.888 billion, I doubt it, it's not the jpm way.
all imo
es1, kmart is similar in the fact the assets were stolen. the difference is the judge in the kmart situation was an idiot to allow for fast Eddie to pick his own real estate appraisers and devalue the real estate to 10 percent of true value and the judge would not hear it any other way.
Wamu is entirely different, we know there were holding company assets that were either conveyed to jpm by mistake or fraudulently conveyed. There is your lawsuit right there. Why has it not been filed. There had to be black and white assets that jpm had that did not belong to them other then the 4 billion in cash. Let's take 2 for certain, 1. The visa shares; 2. Corporate headquarters. Did those assets return to fdick. They may have but I don't recall that to be the case. If not, I think jpm did sell the visa shares if I remember correctly and we know they sold corporate headquarters.
My gut says Susman sold out. Maybe sell out is not the right word, maybe he knew if he persuade a lawsuit the estate would not pick up the tab. It wouldn't surprise me if fdick told susman as such. He's not going to work for free is he.
all imo
desperado,
Watch what happens over time. Susman sold out, NO LAWSUIT AGAINST FDICK OR JPM INDICATES SELL OUT. He doesn't care about escrow holders, he got us the 6 billion nol's and shares in wmih plus escrow markers for a little gravy if some pittance of assets waterfall down and served on a silver platter.
He met his objective, probably didn't tick Rosen and Weil, Gotshal off to much and probably didn't tick jpm off at all. So it wouldn't surprise me that his lack of effort in getting the holding company assets back is very calculated with the intent of building a relationship with jpm and maybe even Weil. It's all about relationships and to get jpm business selling us out may be what it takes. We create no value for him at this point but not ticking jpm off could help his firm down the road.
I have explained several times what the objective of an ousted bod in a bk is, THEY HAVE ONE OBJECTIVE, SAVE THEIR AZZZZZ AND STAY OUT OF LEGAL TROUBLE. So they could care less with what happens in the bk. It happens all the time, not only that who is an ousted bod going to care about, some wamu shareholders. They may care about bond holders or even hedgies because they may be looking for jobs or other bod roles in the futures.
Show me substantial billable hours by susman over the last 3 years and then we can talk. Do you think that without pressure the fdick or jpm will work for the benefit of escrows, NO, so if susman is not billing, then who. Those assets are not going to come back to escrow by themselves.
all imo
meat, you are correct, the fdick, needs to deal with DB and a couple of
other small suits, fdick needs to disseminate what monies they have through the waterfall, and they have a whopping 2.5 billion. That pays seniors, jr's get zero, escrows get zero, rosen keeps billing until 2018 and says, no more assets, waterfall stops above jrs and escrows,
CASE CLOSED.
Meat, maybe you can tell me who is going after all the holding company assets for escrow holders.
Can you tell me how many hours susmans firm has billed the estate in the past 3 years, year by year. He surely is not working for you pro bono is he, lol.
all imo
es1, it rarely happens, like I said before, the only time I have observed significant assets coming back is if the owner of the bk'd company was by far the majority share holder.
What happens in most mega bk's like wamu, the bod major role after the bk is to stay out of jail or pass the buck so they are still marketable. The reason a guy like Rosen gets away with murder, actually lying in court in my opinion, is because the wamu bod doesn't care as long as Rosen protects the bod to the best of his ability regarding illegal activities the bod may be sued for.
Name me one wamu bod, they all went into to hiding, do you think they care what happens to former wamu share holders, no they want jobs.
no one cares what happens to escrows, I will ask the question again, show me the billable hours that susman billed the estate fighting to get your wamu holding company assets back. If he is not fighting for the assets who is? Someone, please enlighten me.
all imo
fwh, that is what my thoughts are as well.
halvo, no I think susman sold out. you need to understand big law firms and how important their relationships are regarding getting big business.
Wamu Share holders are very fortunate. If not for one balzy young dude, I always forget his name, standing up in court and explaining to the judge that the hedgies were corrupt, and insiders, ie, colorable, share holders would have been completely crushed and gotten nothing.
So what susman did was get the former wamu share holders shares in a reorged wmih and 6 billion in nol's. The escrows are where you guys go over the deep end. Susman and no one else is going after 10s of billions, let alone 151 billion. Show me billable hours that susman has generated and the trustee has paid him in support of going after the big wamu holding company assets. You can't because susman is spending zero time on wamu. So who is representing you. Not susman, surely not rosen, surely not jpm, surely not the fdick. So, who is fighting for you to get what you think you deserve, No one.
Why, because the benefits to susman's lawfirm are zero, vs a future working relationship with jpm and maybe business being thrown susmans way by rosen. That is how the game is played. Believe me, susman would love to have his firm mentioned in the same breath as Weil Gotshal or kirkland Ellis, ect. they are the top of the top and susman firm is a nice little boutique with a good reputation, nothing more. But build that relationship with weil or jpm and have jpm throw a couple billion your way after all the dust settles.... Get my point, susman is done with us, ie, going after wamu holding company assets and has moved on.
I know for a fact that almost all big u.s. lawfirms have a billable working relationship with jpm and I know for a fact that unless there is a very good reason, not one top law firm wants to go against jpm to help the little guy. It's not worth it, the long term relationship with jpm is more important than assisting some former wamu dreamers and trying to make them rich.
so naive!.
all imo
walters, 2017, we have to wait until then.
fwh, so I have to deal with the dders, lol, until 2018, let's see how much money goes to escrows by then.
my concern is not my escrows, my concern is wmih and the lack of action. kkr may be trying to screw share holders because of their latest incompetence, but I'm still holding.
all imo
freddy, when I flip a bk stock I wait for my entry, could be anywhere from 3 cents to 50 cents and let the mm's manipulate the movement, this cycle occurs several times in a normal bk. it's speculation that drives the movement, it's mm's who plant news items, it's third parties pumping and dumping. but the driving force is usually that assets are coming back to share holders, thus driving up the pinky share price.
if you have an old wamu chart when it hit the pinks it's easy to see the ebb and flows. it's all a mm game.
to answer the rest of your questions,
after all these years if money was sitting at fargo, that information should be reported right. so my take is there is very little monies at fargo and the only money in the estate is the 2.5 ish billions the fdick has to pay off creditors.
if money was coming back to jr's and share holders why would the fdick withhold that information, they have a fiduciary responsibility to provide the information to debtors. oh, yea, all off book, that's right.
why have you not seen any money coming to escrows yet, if it's sitting at fargo, what's the delay. there are rules that need to be followed to disseminate assets to debtors expeditiously. with all the cash sitting at fargo, you would think it would waterfall in a little quicker.
it is hilarious to think that jpm paid 151 billion CASH for wamu distressed assets of a bk holding company when they paid 1.888 billion for the entire bank, lol, ridiculous.
all imo
more assets to come, your are probably right, maybe 20-50 million coming back. 100 million would be a stretch but time will tell.
how many years will you sit here and wait for the first payout before you say you were screwed, just curious
all imo
green, they were caught, who was caught, who cares. Rosen got caught with his hand in the cookie jar and all the shareholders got was the 6 billion nol's and some worthless escrow shares (prayers). You guys think rosen, jpm, fcick are running scared because of what? Unless a lawsuit is filed stating fraudulent conveyance nothing is going to happen. I know, you think they are all sitting in an office worried about the wamu theft, wow.
all imo
with eric swartz involved as the toxic funder, this company doesn't have a prayer, he has ruined so many companies over the years with his toxic funding. if you vote yes for increasing authorized, watch out what happens with those shares, they will be used to pay toxic funding and dilute, dilute, dilute.
all imo
fwh, get a grip, don't be so emotional. the bottom line, you think escrows are getting around 151 billion back in "cash" and I think you are out of your mind. It's that simple. You dd'ers actually can't believe what you are saying.
Also, I have read the document you posted and imo, it relates to a few small trusts with maybe a few 10s of millions, that's it.
Commingled books allowed jpm to steal all the wamu company assets. If there is a cash cow sitting at fargo, why has the fdic not procured that money to payoff the rest of seniors and start paying jr's and start disseminating to escrows. Why, it's only been about 4 years and escrows have gotten nothing.
If any money is sitting at fargo it a very small amount.
I hope I'm wrong and you are right but I doubt it.
take a deep breath and study up on how bk's work. oh yea, wamu is different, do you know how many times I heard that with other bk's,
have a great day,
all imo
fred, I will say it again, if wamu gets anywhere near the monies you are talking it would be the biggest claw back in history and would be the biggest news story since the financial crisis.
i hope you are right and I am wrong. time will tell.
all imo
fwh, really, so who is managing 151 billion in wamu assets. oh, jpm paid cash for them, 1.5 years of jpm earnings worth, no problem, all off book. jpm has a trillion in off book cash just to make wamu escrow holders happy by paying fair value for all those wonderful wamu assets. lol, sheesh
all imo
bban, I have no idea, a clue would be DID JPM BOOK THE 30 BILLION IN OUT OF THE RUBBLE EARNINGS OR REVS.
30 billion should be easy to find.
all imo
donot, you are correct, terminology is so key, like I said sosososo many times, my guess is that the holding company books and bank books were a mess with inconsistent differentiation on what assets the holding company actually had, ie, they were commingled with the banks and thus this is what gave jpm the chance to steal all the holding company good assets and try to leave the liabilities. the dd'ers see a line item and assume that those assets are automatically coming back to the holding company, ie, ASSUME, not FACT!
all imo
fwh, lol, now that's a good one. I know, I know, you actually think that jpm and fdick are in the processes of turning over 161 billion in assets to wamu holding. Oh, your stating fact, lol, just because you saw one line item in the jpm 10k, lol. You also know for fact the reason wmih had the vote to increase authorized to 3 billion shares, that's to leverage buyout the 161 billion in assets, that's a fact, right. lol
all imo
bban, thought for you. let's say there is a ton off assets that jpm has stolen. The question is why haven't these been booked by jpm. Is it possible that jpm has very smart lawyers and the best cpa's and they have come up with a way to gaap that liabilities are equal to or greater than the assets they stole, on book.
all imo
as a reminder, this is the blurb that most people now read about wamu, so, no one cares. We have to remember, their stock went from 30 to 2 bucks, we know why but a fact is fact, it was at 2 bucks.
all imo
Five years later, WaMu was crippled by the 2007-08 subprime-mortgage-loan crisis; within a year its stock price dropped from $30 a share to $2. In September 2008, worried customers withdrew $16.7 billion in deposits within a 10-day span, prompting the government to place the bank under control of the FDIC, which sold all its assets to JPMorgan Chase for $1.9 billion — making Washington Mutual the largest bank failure in history. The following day, Sept. 26, 2008, the bank filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy and was delisted from the New York Stock Exchange. Unhappy with the details of its new ownership, WaMu sued JPMorgan Chase for access to $4 billion in deposits that it wants back;