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I have just one teeny tiny little problem with that.
I, too am a Flame Warrior. It can be an invigorating part of the Internet Experience. I often learn a great deal from watching two combatants engage (as I'm sure others are learning from our engagement now) and I often find great humor in the exchanges.
I can even recall a few instances where I have "instigated" conflict myself here at IH. I'm sure others would be beside themselves with glee to point this out.
You may be wondering, "Why is BoP defending Joe? Surely he can see he is equally as bad an influence as a certain redhead who shall not be named."
Here is where I part company with those that dislike Joe so strongly. You see it is not such a great stretch for me to see what *I* appeared as 25 years ago. Fortunately, I was given the time and availed myself of the opportunity to aspire to a higher level. I personally believe joe can do the same. he has the intelligence, the wit and the self confidence to pull it off. All he lacks is wisdom. how long it will take for him to gain that wisdom is unknown.
It may be difficult to see but there is great potential in Joe. I can only hope that he will be granted and take advantage of the opportunity to achieve that potential.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Whoa! Joe!
sometimes I think you need someone like that robot from "Lost in Space" to come out behind you when you are about to post saying,
WARNING! WARNING! DANGER JOEMONEY DANGER!
even if everything you just posted is true it does no good and doesn't help get you out of here. In fact it's that very thing that keeps getting you put in here!
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
So, if Joe were to begin making stock related posts here and no other kind of post, then you would presume him to be "really ready" to re-enter the rest of IH?
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Paraphrasing is a dangerous sport.
It requires that you leap from a perfectly good statement and plunge headfirst into the unknown. If you've failed to pack your paraphrase correctly the results can be most catastrophic.
<VBG>
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
the plan Matt and Fred are trying to implement calls for only releasing Joe into the wilds of iHub when they deem him really ready and when there is a good chance of success.
And how exactly, is he supposed to prove to them he is "really ready"?
It's my opinion that if you release him before he has demonstrated he understands his problem that he'll be terminated from iHub permanently in a short time.
I agree. There are too many hunting for him for him to have a chance.
From what he has written I believe he does understand his problem and deserves the opportunity to prove so. I am simply trying to point out the impossibility of the situation as presented by Fred and Matt's callous disrespect for Joe.
BTW, I too enjoy a good verbal joust now and again. I also take some enjoyment from watching others engage in spirited debate. I often learn something from these events. I especially enjoy the often comical behaviors so prevalent on message boards.
According to Fred... these things would make me unwelcome here at IH. I find that very distressing and I've never been jailed.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
In the real world all a PO has time for is to occasionally check to see if the probationer is meeting the requirements of the probation. Occasionally one will try to "make a difference" in the probationers life, but it's usually seen only in the juvenile system and then only very rarely.
In the case of a troubled youth, a good mentor is very close to a PO in regards to their responsibilities. It is a very tough assignment.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
You and I are in agreement.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Exactly, you were thinking like a programmer. Nothing wrong with that.
I understand *why* you are angry. Anytime one has to deal with the public the opportunity to be mistreated presents itself. You'll get some good responses and you'll get some bad ones. You'll also get a few that break out the high octane just because you're you. <g>
I see from you recent posts that (as usual) you've gotten some constructive ideas for improving the survey and are planning to incorporate them.
But I must admit the graphic image of you sitting at the keyboard after that flaming, beard singed, soot covering your forehead and other exposed areas, did elicit a small giggle from me. I apologize, but I couldn't help myself.
That said, folks did go a bit overboard on the flaming. but if you still had the testing directory and a few guinea pigs you could have avoided all the ruckus too.
FMPOV, the survey is/was a minor issue. I'm more concerned with this "Fred as jail warden", but that's not your jurisdiction.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
What do you think should be terms for release?
I stated several times that he would need to choose a mentor, someone that he respects and to whom he will listen. Once he has done that there would be a specific time (3 or 4 days) that he would continue to remain in jail while he and his mentor established the ground rules for his release (subject to Matt's approval of course). He then would be under an extended probationary period (6 months) during which time his mentor would be reviewing every post for TOS violations. If Joe commits a single violation during the probation his account would be terminated permanently. Likewise his mentor would have a limited amount of time to report any TOS violations, failing to report said violation within 24 hours would result in the mentor being placed in jail for one week and then being subject to the same probation terms that Joe was under. During Joe's probation he would be limited to 5 selected non-stock boards (chosen by the mentor) on which to demonstrate his newly learned skills.
Upon completion of the probationary period if joe has sufficiently integrated himself with the IH community, he would be granted full rights to post freely. If not a less restrictive probation (mentor chooses) could be imposed.
It's not perfect, I am sure any number of people can ferret out the flaws in that plan. But it is certainly better than the option currently available.
OMT, once the mentor was chosen, all complaints about joe would need to be passed through the mentor.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Excel
Your exact quote was To continue to play with him is just plain DUMB!
I took that as a recommendation to refrain from interacting with Joe, aka "ignore".
my apologies if that was not what you intended.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Not exactly...
I don't think Fred is an idiot nor does he warrant the use of profanity in the fashion you've chosen.
Is Fred stubborn? yes
Does he say some things that make me go "huh?" yes
Do I agree with him about the OBL statement you keep citing? NO!
But I also don't believe his "style" is appropriate to performing the duties of a message board admin.
On the issue of Bob's admin ability let me say this. The recent "survey" debacle is a good example of why Bob shouldn't admin.
(Note: Bob already recognizes this and that is why Matt is admin...good for Bob).
Bob is a good Geek (term used in it's positive sense). Because he is a good geek he is prone to being a bad admin. The two skills are mutually exclusive. Just because your experience with him worked in your favor does not mean everyones experience was what it should be. to Bob's credit, he recognized this and chose to have Matt handle the admin duties, while he handled his forte`...programming.
As for Joe... Joe is Joe. He is certainly a lot better than he used to be! <g>
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
You should see a doctor about that. There may be a "deadache" wonder drug!
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Sara,
No matter how much we might dislike it, the only mentor that would have a prayer of success would be one of Joe's choosing. As I said earlier the act of choosing would be very telling of Joe's ability to truly reform. He's had ample opportunity to take this idea and run with it. Yet so far, no comment. That too is telling.
As I hope you (and everyone else) know by now, I don't post just to see what my writing looks like. There is always a hidden purpose as well as an obvious purpose. Sometimes I am able to get three or four themes in a single post.
I have a good deal of respect for you because you choose to learn from several people and incorporate the best of each into your own personal style. Would that all of us could be as intelligent. My style is the result of decades of online interaction and I have attempted to incorporate the best of what I've encountered online and in the real world. Truth be told I am still developing that style and hope that trend will continue.
You are absolutely right that Joe has a plethora of good examples that he could choose to incorporate into his style. He arrived with a particular attitude and style and (as is typical of youth) feels he has reached perfection needing no improvement. He learned quickly that wasn't the case. He has shown marked improvement from the original Joe, but there is still room for much more. But I don't agree that he should be forced to eliminate core personality elements to continue here.
You are an excellent example of a feisty, backstreet brawler learning the fine art of fencing. You work within the rules to achieve your goal as opposed to the "no holds barred" approach you arrived with.
You adapted quickly and because you had not interacted inappropriately with a large group, you've been able to move on without excessive baggage. Joe, unfortunately doesn't have that advantage. His early indiscretions made him a great number of enemies and he began to revel in their number and vehemence (typical defense mechanism). This spiralled him down pretty far.
Over the last few months though, Joe has been remarkably tame. Finding out what caused his incarceration this time is proving a difficult task for a number of people (myself included). Something fishy is going on here, fred doesn't seem to know why Joe is here this time and clearly is befuddled on what to do with him. An understandable position as I would have difficulty handling Joe were I in Fred's shoes. I've seen Joe post about Stocks and not a person, and I've seen joe get very personal when he shouldn't have.
Excel is right in that those that have problems with joe should "ignore" him. sad to say but Joe is a perfect target for users that I call "baiters", they find folks like joe and bait them into Flame Wars. I believe they get a perverse joy out of both the war and seeing their victim punished.
To close this up before Churak gets another "deadache". <g>
I don't think joe is merely an innocent victim here. He has done things worthy of termination on several occasions. But I don't agree with Matt's approach and I certainly think Fred is not helping Joe at all. Several things have happened that lead me to believe something is rotting in IH. It may be Joe... and it may be something else entirely.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
I LISTEN!!! Thought it was a big difference between here and SI.
It is to me, and it is appreciated.
BTW, I never even saw this survey. Perhaps I'll get a chance with Bob's Survey 2.0 <g>
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
CM,
I would even go so far as to comment that some of Joe's "infractions" and all of his "posturing" are the equivalent of the "rebellious phase" that we all go through growing up as our individualist natures begin to assert themselves.
Matt's reaction has been typical of what many parents attempt with difficult teenagers, ever tighter restrictions and increased frustration at the lack of success.
BTW, Thanks for the reassurance that my message was understood.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
so basically, you are saying that my mentoring skills leave something to be desired, is that it?
No, I'm saying that having you mentor joe would be akin to having Richard Ramierez counsel Danny Rolling. Not likely to produce the desired result.
Considering that the "h" key is several keys away from the "d" key...
What exactly is a deadache?
As I understand it, at death the nerve endings are no longer functional, therefore it would be exceedingly difficult for anything to ache. Also since the definition of "death" now includes the "absence of brain activity" even if the nerve endings did work there is nothing functioning to receive and process their activity into an "ache".
I apologize, but your commentary does not warrant another 9,890 words.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Sara,
I respect your opinions as well, we've disagreed before and probably will again. I will quarrel not that Fred has been calm and clear in his expectations. My quarrel is that his expectations are unreasonable. Joe is not being asked merely to be civil, but to turn aside from all possible confrontations. Were this restriction to be placed on either of us...neither of our posts on this topic would be acceptable.
Barring a programmatic solution to this issue (User Select Block)...Joe needs to choose someone he actually respects to "help" him reach his potential, and then follow the advice he gets from that person. He cannot be forced to accept advice from anyone, he must *want* it.
IMHO, the act of selecting and publicly announcing whom he would trust and respect enough to be his mentor would be enough reason for me to let him out of jail were it in my power to do so. However, I would also consider the importance of the mentor's position. This person should have the power to give the final vote on Joe's permanent termination.
What do you think sara? Would that work?
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
the idea is to "improve" him...
not make things worse.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
OK,
One at a time.
true or false
You want Joe to become Non-confrontational.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Matt,
I agree that Joe has had his difficulties here. Occasionally they have been big. But your opening paragraph could just as easily have been applied to me as it was to Joe. He does need to learn some respect, but for the life of me I can't see how much of anything you've done over the last year or that Fred is doing now will teach him about respect.
I don't believe that beating him will improve the situation either. Granted Fred's "I am a rock" style of debate can be difficult to overcome, but how is beating his head against Fred's Stone wall supposed to teach Joe anything? IMO, He's too smart to keep beating himself up against a non responsive opponent. If I were in his shoes a certain redhead would have a partner in trash talking IH over this.
As for the offer, Fred had already "given up" on Joe at the time the offer was made. Even then the offer should not have been made public.
Lastly, if this statement were true "Most people instantly get the boot for that.", there would be a long list of folks like myself that would no longer be posting at IH. At one time or another nearly all of your regular posters have become passionately involved in a disagreement. Contrary to the above statement, you are exceedingly tolerant of flame wars and Flame Warriors, even those that have crossed every line in the sand you've put in place (a certain redhead comes to mind as does a particularly vulgar "Ironhead").
You are right that Joe needs a "mentor", unfortunately you cannot choose one for him. He must do that for himself, only then can that mentor have any hope of helping joe reach his potential.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Just so we are clear...
In YOUR opinion
1. Joemoney is not being asked to avoid Confrontation?
2. Confrontation is not welcome here at IH?
3. Joe doesn't have to radically alter his personality to gain freedom here at IH?
4. Young people are not typically brash, etc. ?
5. Matt did not disrespect Joe when he made an offer and then withdrew it?
6. Joe never posted under another alias with Matt's blessing?
7. I've never offered MAtt a suggestion that would solve his "joe Problem" without having to remove Joe from the Population?
8. The world isn't what it is?
Your blanket "mine differs" covers a multitude of sins. It is exactly this kind of pompous attitude that is common among the worst administrators.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Thanks for the Welcome (again) <g>
My apologies for missing your comment in #1524.
My big question this week is...
When do we arrest Mr. McDermott & friend for Treason?
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Fred,
Let me weigh in on Joe's side here.
1. To be honest you aren't really giving him much to work with. You've even asked that he avoid being confrontational. One thing I am certain of is that both Matt and Bob (and a great many IHubbers) would be very upset if they were called on the carpet for confronting a tout or a basher with hard facts and serious questions. Something that Joe has shown he is very capable of in the past. Confrontation is the heart and soul of lively discussion. It is how we learn and grow. Confrontation in and of itself is not a bad thing. And you want this part of Joe eliminated? perhaps you also favor the use of electric shock "therapy" and removal of the frontal lobe on alleged mental patients as reliable "treatments".
2. I disagree strongly with the assertion that Joe MUST radically change his personality in order to be freed from Jail. He is young, brash, and occasionally rude. Very few in his age group aren't. He is also intelligent and engaging when he wants to be. Granted he does display a penchant for getting involved in "flame wars", a trait some find distasteful, yet I (someone also known as having a tendency to get involved in "flame wars") can't recall any instances between Joemoney and myself that weren't polite and respectful, and we have and do disagree on a number of issues. Perhaps Joe's real difficulty is one of respect. His age group is not particularly well known for having a lot of respect for a lot of things. Especially when other people act in a manner that seems to disrespect them. I can certainly understand why he might have some disrespect for certain IH users and IH management.
I have watched from the sidelines and the lack of respect shown in Matt's posts was best exemplified by the recent "offer" and it's "withdrawal". regardless of the "legal" status of the contract, Matt certainly "dissed" Joe big time.
Your actions are even worse. From the beginning you have played a game on Joe and used your position to either try and humiliate him into conforming to YOUR ideal of what a poster should be or bait him into exploding thus giving Matt the final excuse to send him away forever. Thank God we aren't all like you or IH would be a very boring place indeed.
For a time this Summer, with Matt's blessing, Joe posted under another alias. TMK, no one knew that it was Joe posting. He displayed all of his best traits and none of his bad ones. No "flame wars" ensued. I suggested that he drop the Joemoney moniker and begin building a new reputation under a new alias, perhaps even the one he was using. Joe politely rejected that suggestion, because he wishes to (understandably) build the "joemoney" brand.
I understand Matt's dilemma, how to prevent a board from being disrupted while still allowing Joe to contribute to the site. I've already suggested the proper tool and last understood that Bob was "working on it" perhaps one day Matt will have it at his disposal.
Until them however, the actions of Management and those acting on their behalf concern me greatly. If it is your intention to perform a frontal lobotomy on Joemoney to "calm him down" and have him fit better into your idea of what this community should be... who is next on your list?
I for one share the desire to see an IH where all disagreements do not end up in "flame wars". But, like Joe, there are times when one must step into the ring and deliver the best uppercut one has. It would be nice if everyone could "just get along", but this world (just like the real one) is populated by real people, each with their own ideas of right and wrong. And when they disagree sometimes things get ugly.
IMNSHO, you would make a very poor Admin. Matt would be making a terrible mistake to install you in such a position. It would be to IH's detriment should you ever be Admin here. I fear you would top Bob in the Bad Admin department.
FREE JOEMONEY NOW! FREE JOEMONEY NOW! FREE JOEMONEY NOW!
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
I quit being concerned with what does or doesn't cause cancer in 1986...
when they boldly announced that simply breathing can increase your risk of cancer.
I'll also remind all of the great egg debacle where eggs were labeled as "cancer-causing" and then ten years later were labeled as "cancer-fighting".
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
test
passed
The Saddest thing of all...
is that in all of the "discussion" of Excel's post, No one considered what would have resulted if the man that approached the vehicle hadn't been armed. Regardless of his color, the thug in the vehicle would have shot him dead. Perhaps the next piece of vermin wanting to draw his pistol in that neighborhood will wonder if the person he wants to kill might just be a faster or more accurate shooter!
When we understand that the folks marching aren't really about "race relations" but instead are looking to abolish the Second Amendment, we'll have taken a hugh step towards ending this alleged "race problem".
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
It's a good thing Matt is the admin and I'm not. If I were, "badmouthing the site operators" would be a one-way ticket back to RB. Criticism is fine; tough to improve without it.
This may be the single best feature of IH. That we have two individuals to whom we can opine freely and without retaliation (usually), truly separates IH from the rest of the pack more than any neat bit of programming or how "civil" the atmosphere may be.
BTW, Matt's patience still amazes me!
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Now, who was the drunk that always slept it off in the Mayberry jail?
So many candidates, so little time!
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Munster's Grub
#msg-509821
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Not really that unusual at all
REIT's (Real Estate Investment Trusts) typically have a high yield due to the requirement that they distribute almost all net income to the trust holders. Given the current negative environment for stocks (driving everything down regardless) and the boom/bubble in Real Estate this valuation isn't surprising.
This one is on my buy list even though there is concern about the RE bubble bursting. My take is that the resulting correction won't drop the Stock price significantly and the yield will settle out to a more "normal" 8-10%. In the meantime I can enjoy the extra income from the high yield.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Munsters Grub!
A wise and considerate response...
Especially considering the number of lechers running around here!
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Oh well,
I guess leaving her alone for a couple of hours is out of the question. and I can't say as I'd blame you for that either.
good luck!
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
spoken like a true moderate! <g>
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
No need to apologize.
As I said it was a nice thing to do. I only thought it might have been specific for me because of my recent confrontation elsewhere and my "ranting" here. If it had been directed at me I was going to thank you for caring enough to say something positive.
BTW, I've gotten the Serenity Prayer down pat. Says the same thing but much shorter and easier to memorize! <g>
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Bob,
If I were you, I'd go today. Take your daughter with you after she gets home from school. If all goes well, you both would be back home before Mom gets in. If things are goofy, pack it up and try again tomorrow. No interference with trading hours and plenty of time to tweak while you're there. I'd bet your daughter would love the opportunity to see one of geekdoms inner sanctums!
Hopefully there will be no difficulty for my bringing family members into the conversation. <G>
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Don't know if you meant that for me personally or for everyone here.
It is very nice. Thanks for sharing it.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
I agree.
They currently operate as from a position of superiority. As long as we continue to allow them to work from their strength (wheeling and dealing) while restricting our strengths (productivity, efficiency and military might), they will continue to feel as if they have the upper hand (if not all the cards) and the status quo will remain until they may actually gain an upper hand in our areas of strength. They are immensely patient and will delay us from taking action for as long as possible.
Oh, OMT, this conflict goes all the way back to Abraham, Sara and Hagar (6000 years more or less).
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Something else I am reminded of by this discussion...
An old friend of mine, who when asked where he came from has answered "Persia" since the late `70's, once told me that the peoples of the Middle East have forgotten more about "negotiating" that the peoples of the west have learned yet. We are wrong to trust the Saudi's and quite probably everyone else in the region as well, including the Israeli's.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
unfortunately????
I think not! Hailing frequencies open Fellow Trekkie!
We could probably find a Trek episode that is relevant to just about any discussion. One of those rare instances where Television actually produced something worthwhile. They tackled many issues and told great stories with both humor and drama. They inspired a great many to explore those issues within themselves as well as exploring their own creativity.
And don't forget they invented the "Mission Statement"!
To Explore Strange New Worlds,
To Seek out New Life, and New Civilizations,
To Boldly Go
Where No Man has gone
Before.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
I too would like to weigh in on the question...
"If you could go back in time, would you kill Adolph Hitler before he came to power in Germany?"
In spite of the great evil he did, I would not kill him. His death might have made things worse. Another even more ruthless leader might have emerged, perhaps from that generation or from one of the generations that didn't emerge because the previous generation being killed in the war. Better the enemy you know than the enemy you don't. At least we know the end result was that he was defeated, kill him beforehand and we have an unknown and possibly darker future. Also people forget that Hitler was also responsible for the Volkswagon and our own interstate highway system. Ike was impressed by the Autobahn and thought we needed a similar system to rapidly move our military around the country in case of attack.
BTW, great Trek reference and very appropriate. May I also offer what may be the best Trek episode and another appropriate reference to the discussion at hand...
"City on the Edge of Forever" Where McCoy is sent back in time to 1930's US and as a result the entire future is changed, No Star Fleet and No Enterprise to rescue Kirk and Spock on the planet. They go back to the same time to discover what McCoy did to change the future and "undo" it. Seems that McCoy saved the life of a seemingly insignificant social worker (played by Joan Collins). But with her survival she was able to start a "peace" movement that prevented the US from entering WWII until it was too late. Hitler and the Germans won WWII changing the future of mankind. At the end of the episode Kirk and Spock pevent McCoy from saving the woman and history is restored.
The lesson: changing anything in the past can have a very negative impact on the future.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381