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what role did Matt have in the March tete-a-tete?
That of an admin failing to enforce the TOS in a timely manner.
Did you have some secret deal to oust me?
No secret deal. No request that you be removed. Only that your posts containing the bestiality references be removed per the TOS.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Thank you for sharing that with us.
It does shed more light on the situation.
But, it also brings to light the great risk that was taken in bringing Joe back form the dead to place him in jail for rehab with Fred. It appears that without that difficult, stressful interdiction, Joe might not have contacted you at all.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Aw! Phil!
By all means help scu get in as many posts as possible. We need to have his marvelous example to hold up to all jail inmates and Ihubbers in general as a shining beacon of Fred's reform program. He is Fred's poster boy, you know. In fact we should lobby for scu to have some space set aside on the front page so that everyone can have the chance to witness his wondrous reformation.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
I await with a worm on my tongue.
"baited breath" for those of you in Rio Linda.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
NAH!
Matt's not quick enough to have come up with that on his own. Bob *might* have had something to do with it, but I can't fathom what advantage he would see in multiple Bird's of Prey. Nope, it's probably just another figment of that feral imagination of yours.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
I enjoy attacking the attackers on 'RB'.
Please regale us with an explanation of "why?"
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
There are more than one of me?
Have I been cloned?
Why was I not informed of this? A citizen should be made aware of when he has been duplicated!
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Ah! Yes!
The infamous "if"!
As in "if" a frog had wings...it would not bump its (expletive deleted) on the ground to move about!
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
I "mocked" thee?
Pishaw! praytell showeth wherefore I have "mocked" thee!
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
I am mocking the spell checker though!
Oh my!
even the great Zen masters would be in awe!
Selective "pusher dodging" a truly amazing feat!
Can you control it to the point that no matter "where" you are the attentions of any particular "pusher" will have no effect? or is your mastery limited only where the rules require you to be civil.
BTW, are you familiar with the old saying concerning leopards and changing spots?
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Of course not,
I would never suggest you try to live by IH rules at RB. It can be done, but it's not particularly enjoyable.
My point was more to the why the need to "have your cake and eat it too". If you've truly mastered the art of "pusher dodging" well enough to post here at IH. Why continue to waste time, energy and bandwidth engaging in endless bouts of "who can utter the grossest profanity" at RB?
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
I can/have respond to the "pushing" on 'other' message board sites and not here on iHUB .
Why bother? If there is no need to respond to a "pusher" at IH...then why respond to them "elsewhere". If you cannot abide a "pusher" without responding "elsewhere", then why bother posting at IH?
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
but I can assure you that I will NOT be "pushed".
We are all "pushed"...it is how we respond to the "pushing" that sets us apart. I wish you well and pray that you understand your good fortune and have the wisdom to make it worthwhile.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Ron,
I am glad you consider me a true friend, the feeling is mutual.
One of the hallmarks of true friendship is the ability to be able to disagree on an issue, yet not let it reflect on the friendship. Sometimes true friends must take opposite sides of a heated discussion. But at the end of the day, regardless of who won or lost (or if the issue remains unresolved), the friends shake hands and break bread, for that is the way of true friendship.
We see this issue from two different sides, each colored by our own experiences. It is entirely possible that we are both wrong and right at the same time.
Either way, I hold no animosity for your lack of remorse over this issue, I trust you will hold none because I do have regrets.
May the Viagra effect run rampant in all your stock purchases.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Muell,
Did IH go above and beyond? Certainly.
My point was not that Joe had not earned termination several times over. But that by placing him back in jail (post-termination?) and in essence giving him no real chance to convince us he would not sin again, Matt and Fred treated him inhumanely. I would not have wished that anyone be treated so here. Ever. And that includes Mary.
Doing so negates the honor earned by the previous attempts to aid Joe. If he was terminated and brought back to be subjected to that humiliation, it was wrong to do so. It would always be wrong. He should have been left terminated rather than what we saw the last few days. Especially since that was the end result.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
The inmate I released was offensive. More so, as I recall, than the inmate I did not release. Their bursts of offensiveness are not the point. The point is their willingness to acknowledge the bad behaviour which landed them in jail, and renounce it.
My concern was with the conduct of the inmates while they were in jail.
I was trying to convey the message that people should be civil and avoid conflict. When Churak tried to bait scu and scu had enough sense not to rise to the bait, that was an important thing for me. Then, somewhere in there, scu said something about having done wrong and planning to do better. There's not much more that I can look for from an inmate. Those were my criteria for release, and he met them.
The question of sincerity is, of course, significant. I need to "believe" that the inmate means what he says.
I had two other (active) inmates at the time. Scu provided a clear and simple object lesson for them ... if they could look past their own pique and read the messages. If they wanted out, the formula was right there for them to see. In retrospect, it appears that it may have been too subtle.
Well, at last we get an idea of why things happened the way they did.
Here is my read of the situation.
With three inmates Fred granted the first one to "make nice" his freedom to set an example to those that remained. With the full knowledge that should the released inmate "slip" he would be able to "deal" with him later. If he did not slip, so much the better.
From Fred's point of view, a low risk, high reward scenario. However, it appears he did not factor in the "fallout" engendered when it seemed he was acting capriciously.
The inmate that *did* "get it" however had no credibility with Fred. As evidenced by repeated attempts to apologize, swear on whatever to "be good", anything (even proffered a petition). As such Fred did not have ample reason (from his POV) to release the inmate.
Frustrated, the inmate did *something* (off site? on site? the rumors are rampant) in a futile attempt to rage against the machine. The results are well known.
From, Fred's actions and this statement it seems reasonable that the recently terminated inmate, in reality, had no chance of redemption. Fred allowed the existing credibility issue to exact too high a standard of submission for the individual to accept. He was doomed before he began.
I've always called this kind of situation a "Kobayashi Maru" thanks to Star Trek's name for the No Win Scenario. The inmate could not win, and because of that Fred couldn't either.
To place an inmate in such a situation is cruel. With no opportunity for success, there is no motivation to succeed. In the end it is better to execute the condemned to end their misery.
It is often said that a society can be judged on the treatment of it's prisoners. If a message board is a microcosm of society, would IHUB be diminished by these recent actions?
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Hi Bob,
Would it be possible to allow more HTML tags for Iboxes?
Specifically I'm thinking of TABLE and it's subgroup. So many folks are using pics in the Ibox now it might be nice if they could be "arranged" properly. Of course no one *has* to do so but it might be a nice *option*. Maybe even an opportunity to make an Ibox more like a webpage.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
I would like to assume that your definition of a flame warrior and Joe's is different.
Please don't assume...I think you know why. <g>
But you are almost correct. Joe's definition of a FW would be slightly different from mine, but not as much as you might expect.
Joe lives for fights. Not a self-defense thing, but he creates fights, so he can feed his hunger..
Agreed, But I have also created fights. To prove a point or display someones weakness or to give a bully the beating he needs so the rest of us can "play" in peace.
I'd hope that your definition of a flame warrior is only becoming one when you have to -- which, if I'm doing my job right, isn't very often.
Agreed, more often than not I find myself engaged with a certain young Admin or those that are admin wannabes. Sometimes, the guy with all the power needs *someone* to call him out and apply an appropriately vectored 2x4 to his cranial structure in order to point out he's taken a wrong turn.
I see no reason to take pride in being someone who can beat other people up behind a computer screen. Big deal. I'm far more impressed with someone who can post their stock trades in real-time and still be popular several years later.
I take pride in setting a bully to sulking behind his keyboard, if that's what is required. I'm not looking to impress anyone about anything. I am interested in being able to peruse a vast number of investment strategies, plans, hopes, dreams and whatnot with a minimum of noise. Sometimes I share my own ideas, but mostly I lurk. Some places have never known I was there. If making a post would only add to the clutter, you can count on me remaining silent. But if anyone is being abused by anyone, I'm likely to come in breathing fire.
The main goal for coming here should be to talk about stocks. If not, you can enjoy Club Matt.
Agreed, I guess that's why I've never vacationed there.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
I also thought the offer was superior. However, the backing out lacked class. There was an alternative, you could have "run it by" Fred let him grant "approval" or not. then you wouldn't have been stepping on his toes and you wouldn't have looked like you do now.
I believe you made the offer because you could see that Fred and Joe weren't on the same page (I think Fred is using a different book) and (rightfully so) sought a solution. You suggestion was elegant and put all of the responsibility where it should have been, on Joe.
Additionally, the "Old Flame Warriors" bit doesn't sit well with me. It reeks of a hidden agenda. One that does not bode well for one old Bird. Given your misguided actions as described above, "trusting" you will prove difficult.
As with anyone I've always given trust and respect until they demonstrate that I should not do so. This is the second occasion (March, JXM) in which you have betrayed my trust.
Once, it's a Mistake. Mistakes can be corrected.
Twice, it's a Problem. Problems must be fixed.
Three times, It's a Habit. Habits will be broken.
My trust can be earned once lost. But don't try and make a Habit of breaking faith with me.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
We at least, here, offer a chance to reform, a place to voice your case, instead of just slamming the door on you for a month or permanently.
In most every case before this week I would agree completely. I will even grant that the plan seems to have worked with scu...so far. Of course he hasn't really been "pushed" since his release either. Time will tell.
I will also agree that Joe was a "special" case. But what went on here the past few days looked more like a kangaroo court. I would hope that you've taken note of which Ihubbers are speaking out here. Not for future retribution, but because each has a solid reputation and is a long time solid contributor to the site.
Once again I will state that I am personally concerned with the recent statements concerning "Old Flame Warriors" no longer being welcome at IH. I have voiced this concern several times without a response. A quick read of my Ibox and a review of #msg-520629 (see boldface and comments following) should provide ample explanation.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Both of you.
Fred's "logic" I've always found suspect. But frankly I was astounded by your actions on the Jail thread.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Your post reminds me of an old saying...
If you can't dazzle them with logic, baffle them with (expletive deleted).
I asked you a simple question. Apparently it was too much to ask. I should never have bothered a being of such obvious superiority with so mundane a request. You were and are perfectly correct to respond with your supercilious style. I am a mere worm beside your greatness. You are correct in all things and are worthy therefore of worship. I bow down to your being and request the privilege of being allowed to bathe your feet.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
It is the lack of logic displayed recently that perplexes me.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
A lovely salsa, eh?
Ask anybody who has been an Admin and had to pimp slap a few people. You have a hard time remembering all the offenses. But when I pull the trigger on someone, there is always a reason. Whehter it remains a kodak moment in my mind until my death is a whole different ballgame. Now, go read my previous post.
That is why I've always kept a written record. pen and paper in the early days and later a spreadsheet. Have Bob whip one up for you. Shouldn't take more than 5 minutes.
Note: Did you forget I *have* been an admin?
If you'd back off and let him do the talking instead of hounding him for every word he speaks, you never know what could happen. I point again to scu AFTER being out of jail. So far, so good. Good call on Fred's part, so far.
That's just it, for all of his "talking" he's not really saying anything, he's been just about as clear as a San Fransisco fog. You're right about one thing though, we certainly don't know what could happen. As I recall, some of your "shoot from the hip" decisions looked pretty good at first. Even Mary behaved for a while.
<burp, fire, smoke>
I suggest you research dragons better. Here's a start, they are impervious to fire. (that *should* be obvious)
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
and taking open shots at people doesn't bode well for them. Do you not agree?
I don't know, seems to have worked quite well for scu.
So for them, I'd suggest, they come to the bargaining table
Tough to bargain with someone when you can't trust them to follow through with an agreement. Spin it any way you want. *You* made an offer. The offer was accepted. *You* then withdrew the offer.
The Jail was started with the concept in mind that it would be a place I would isolate folks and say "You've been doing X wrong, now, you owe me X."
A good concept, too bad your new warden can't seem to execute it.
scu, I'm not sure. Didn't follow that one, actually. Fred called that shot. Churak....aye...he was jailed for picking a fight and calling people names, I think...has he changed?
You're kidding, right? You pulled the trigger and don't know why? On two different inmates? how many more have been jailed, released and/or terminated that you can't recall why?
If this is true then you may have finally unseated Bob as the lead Bust in the Admin's Hall of Shame.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Fred,
If you can do nothing more than insult me when responding to a question, please do us all a favor and put me on "ignore".
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Recent Events here at IH have given me pause...
Without rehashing the details ad infinitum, a longtime user was recently jailed and the summarily terminated. While it is true that any one of his past transgressions would have been grounds for termination, the reasons for this most recent incarceration were and still are unclear. Although one well respected user here at IH "fessed up" to submitting a TOS violation on the jailed user, no confirmation was provided by either IH admin or the jailhouse moderator (aka the warden). Further, despite numerous efforts by several parties to ascertain the nature of the crime (as well as the extent of the punishment and what would be required for release), again neither the Site admin nor the board moderator saw fit to provide a clear, direct answer to any of the parties involved. Further another inmate was released during this time for no apparent reason, even after he had posted numerous TOS violations and direct personal insults to the management at IH.
These events culminated in the jailed user being terminated for "actions committed off site". No further information has been provided beyond "it was directed at a particular member and affected all IH members". No corroborating evidence has been presented.
During these events it was repeated several times by management and it's representatives that "Old Flame Warriors" are unwelcome here at IH.
Funny, but until a couple of days ago I've ALWAYS felt welcome here. Even during 8 hours of a "premature termination" I did not lose confidence that *I* was welcome here at IH. It is true that there have been times when I felt that management was unresponsive and dismissing commentary "out of hand", but those issues were resolved. Or so I thought.
Over the past few days I watched and then attempted to intervene when I felt that management was being unresponsive and disrespectful to another user, namely the fellow that had been jailed. My commentary was dismissed "out of hand" by the board moderator and IH management chose to proffer a poorly disguised personal slight. Coupled with the repeated reference concerning Flame Warriors and the lack of responses when questioned on these issues, I must conclude on the evidence available that IH management wishes to make me feel unwelcome here.
As such, though I wish it were different, I will be maintaining a lower profile for the foreseeable future. venturing out only when I've compiled enough evidence to call IH management out directly on whatever issues that evidence may present.
Something is fishy at IH. I don't now what yet, but I'll find out.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
We all lost.
Interesting commentary on your part.
One thing I'm still not clear on...
What was the single issue that failed to be addressed?
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
What's this?
Inmates running the asylum?
Say it isn't so!
BTW, didn't you see "The Green Mile"? Don't you know that all death row inmates are supposed to be sad following an execution? Knowing they are all now one step closer to "walking the mile" themselves?
I knew you were headed here from the day you logged on. Told Matt as much. Even your alias is profanity.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
I felt Sara might feel I was making it personal if I included the "Ollie" in the quote. Discretion being the better part of valor and all I chose to truncate the quote.
We "Old Flame Warriors" must be cautious, lest our missive's get misinterpreted. Can't give these aggressive young admins any grist for their mills.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
not a life-long member of the Flame Warriors Club
I guess this means you'll be hunting for Bird's soon, eh?
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
It had better be.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Done,
I have enough dump email addresses to keep spammers busy for years.
BTW, you do understand that this means you now are somewhat beholden to me. I ask only one thing. Live up to the promise. Fail in that and I will lead the charge to have you removed myself.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Worked for me.
Joe's petition/apology
---------------------------------------------------------------
To: iHub Management
My Fellow iHub Members,
I have written this petition for the benefit of the entire iHub community. Within it, I will state my thoughts regarding my current situation.
I have, for the last year and a half, been a disruption to the iHub community and have caused great trouble for my peers. The actions taken by myself were taken without consideration for others and they were not well thought out, in a sense that caused me to act in an immature manner. For this I apologize.
In recent months, I have made an effort to mend fences with all respectable iHub members so that my future postings will be that of a polite and mature nature. As of this moment, I have no intentions of ressurecting my previous immature ways, and I have no plans for revenge against those who are responsible for provoking my immature behavior.
In the past few days, I have tried to deal with the new iHub warden (Fred aka Koikaze) in a polite and respectful manner. However, he has been unresponsive, unavailable, and uncooperative. Many, including myself have criticized his way of dealing with prisoners and his actions regarding sc8452. Because of this, I feel my message is mute to him and my only way of reaching the community is with this petition and letter of apology.
I do not in anyway intend to become a new person, nor a mock of someone else. I will not morph into a role model to please the community. However, you must understand that I have always had the ability to exercise politeness and civility, that has been the very essence of my desired behavior. However, sometimes in the heat of the moment, one's brain remains in idle, while their keyboard continues to type. This is the problem, and I right now, believe I have cured myself of that carelessness and disregard for others.
I ask you to sign my petition for the release of me into the iHub community. I ask that my "leash" been loosened and my privileges be restored to full capacity so that I may contribute to my full ability.
Thank You.
Joemoney
---------------------------------------------------------------
Where do we go from here?
Fred, I'd daresay this is at least worthy of some response. Coupled with his last response to me, I'd say you have an opportunity to engage in fruitful dialog.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Here you go!
http://ragingbull.lycos.com/mboard/memalias.cgi?member=birdofprey
Last posted in August 2001, thought they might have killed it there for a minute.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Then your solution is simple.
No matter who is writing to you, treat them as you would me.
Make a conscious effort to be polite in every post. treat even your worst enemy as if they had always supported you, return their every post with kindness and support when debating.
You'd be amazed at how I could push your buttons if I chose to do so. But you are right that it wouldn't really be a fair test.
which has been my point to Fred and Matt all along. there is no way joe can be tested fairly under these constraints.
but if you can remember this...
Print this and tape it to the top of your monitor.
DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU.
This isn't always easy and I don't think you should be held to a higher standard than others in this regard but if you can put this into practice you might find your Joemoney career once again headed in the right direction.
P.S. if you're ever really bored you should go back a couple years at RB and look up Gabard and mine's exchange. our first conversation was a doozy!
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Tell you what joe.
It seems you are required to engage in discourse with someone while still incarcerated to determine if you have mended your ways enough to warrant release.
I agree with you that there are few truly capable of giving you a real test and thereby allow you to present your better side.
Therefore I'll make you an offer.
I will debate with you if you wish. You may select the subject or you can present several and allow me to chose from a list.
BTW, if you agree to this we should get some kind of compensation from Matt, this could be better than anything the WWE ever produced.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Joe has either not taken me seriously in the past, not understood, or not cared.
Or any one of a hundred other reasons. Granted your efforts have been ineffective.
He has a chance with Fred.
It doesn't appear that way.
Fred presents his message in a way totally different than I do. He's older and wiser. So, I figured he'd be my best bet to help Joe conform to some sort of iHub standard.
I agree Fred's message has been different. Kind of show me how you can post without arguing and then disappear. We already KNOW that Joe can post civilly, so what is the point of Joe showing such a post here in jail to Fred? Several of us are asking this of Fred without response. Not surprising because it is a difficult question.
Matter of fact, the only reason he is back is because Joe sent an e-mail to me saying "Matt, let Fred try to deal with me." So I did. it's his last shot. I have no desire to see Joe posting anymore, honestly. But, I do recognize his ability regarding stocks, so maybe Fred can penetrate his skull. If not, c'est la vie Joe.
Maybe it is time joe and IH part company. I hate saying this but it appears there is no possibility of reconciliation.
I've also seen it mentioned several times that Fred or myself are trying to make a joke of Joe or stroke our egos. Not even close. If you think that, you need to wait until the smoke clears in front of you, so you can think more clearly. Fred is doing me a favor. Simple as that. I can assure you a man of Fred's past and sucess, and a guy like me (who has plenty of other things on his plate) gets no joy or high out of making a 21 year old kid feel small. Trust me.
Correction, I believe the consensus is that Fred's ego is the one on prominent display and your "withdrawn offer" sequence appears disingenuous. Throw in the unfathomably easy release given scu#### after a tirade that makes my confrontation with Bob pale by comparison and perhaps you can see where some of us are coming from.
Further, I would appreciate some clarification on Fred's proclamation regarding Flame Warriors and those that enjoy a lively debate and/or the often comedic musings offered on message boards being "unwelcome" here at IH. Please remember that I regard myself as a Flame Warrior, I do enjoy a good scrap and find great humor in the back and forth that take place regularly here at IH.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
I think the conversation between us today is a good example of how to disagree in a civil and respectful manner.
to quote one of my favorite comedians...
It Certainly IS!
The Bird of Prey
#board-381
Sadly, both of my grandfathers perished before I was born. From what I've learned fo their histories they would both been worthy of my respect.
Throughout my life I have tried to listen equally to the counsel of all my family members, for I know that each gives that counsel freely and with my best interests at heart. At different times and in different places the messages may not be the same from my family members, but I understand that each is speaking according to their experiences and doing their best to offer aid and comfort.
I tend to listen to many "advisors" even those that certainly don't have my best interests in mind. But, it is one thing to listen, quite another to act. My ultimate action my not fall according to the advice of any single person, but more often it is a melding of my own making from the counsels presented.
A message from one person will always be received differently from a message presented by another person. The difference may be subtle or pronounced, even if the message is identical both the giver and the receiver will color the message with their own interpretations.
take a simple sentence and have ten people form a line and whisper the message from one to another, with the tenth person repeating the message aloud for all to here. Rarely will it bear any resemblance to the original sentence.
I have many mentors, former teachers, close friends and my family members. None are granted more importance over another.
The Bird of Prey
#board-381