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Sounds like a prudent maneuver. I hope that you will have good health to see the heaven part and the time to enjoy the fruits of your your labors.
Looks like you sold at the top.
Can anyone explain why bank clawbacks are paid to Treasury rather than F&F who sustained the losses.
Isn't this taking money from stockholders twice or three times? First the banks commit fraud. Fanny takes a hit.
Second the Government lends funds to FNMA cover the losses and takes 79,8% of company. Fanny pays dividends to G-man for assistance.
Third, the government takes the refund that the banks pay for their earlier fraud and does nothing to adjust the debt that F&F incurred.
I usually classify such behavior as theft.
Just like borrowing money from the mob. You never pay principal you just pay VIG.
Any way you want to look at this, the issue of government seizure of private property is paramount. Can the Gov't confiscate property for the public good? Can it do so without compensation is another issue. It certainly asserted the first premise on numerous occasions. Even AT&T was confiscated in WWI, as well as most of the railroads in this country. Therefore, when in the 2008 financial debacle, F&F were front and center perpetrators, confiscation was plausible "for the public good". Uncle Sam could have backstopped these entities with several other tools at its disposal. Paulson chose "conservatorship" a nebulous concept that can be interpreted in many ways, since no one knows exactly what it means.
Nevertheless, respect for fair compensation is integral to our form of government. Eventually, every confiscated entity that was seized by US was returned to its owners (including such enemy owned entities as BAYER Aspirin and GAF were returned ). There is no room for vitiating this concept imbedded in the constitution. How this administration and our judiciary handle this issue will determine the future of our "democracy" .
Hi Boomer,
?Question? Should the government be allowed to "sell" the stock that they issued to themselves after the companies are fully paid up? The Gov't's holding can be classified as "collateral" rather than ownership. They never paid the current stockholders for the so called consevatorship of 79.8%. I would call this transaction an illegal confiscation
There are basic contract rules here. Unless this case will break precedent, I don't see the government's case for ownership.
I want to welcome you back.
I hope you are "wide eyed and bushy tailed" for this drama.
Have a great 4th and get back to us soon.
Phil
That's why these issues are so exciting.
There is always a chance that someone who is well connected in Washington will grab these entities for themselves (think Carlyle Group, or Blackstone, or Blackrock and such, perhaps). If they grab these, they'll take them away from us with UNE-GOTTZ (sic) with regard to the public good or to shareholders' rights.
They can do so because... THEY CAN!
Other than that threat, we are look pretty good here.
Awesome!
Checked it out that's 6.14+Libor. Still 7.875% on $25.00 base.
I liked the 5 year window for redemption. We may very well have an opportunity to feast on a rich div.
Beta... Wouldn't it be better if they start paying Div. on the FMCKJs rather than call them for redemption?
They recently, unilaterally, changed the "rate" on these PFD to 6.42%+LIBOR. Current anticipated yield, about 7.875%.
Two problems with that.
1- I'm not sure they can flip the rate on PFD after issue?
2-If the div. is suspended, and they anticipate redemption in the future, why fool around with the security if you don't expect to pay the div. anyway?
Very strange!
Correction:The genie is out of the bag not the "spellcheck" Genny on post 62.
Whatever is suggested, nothing could replace the system as it stands. F&F should never have been made public shareholder companies. By parceling out ownership to the public, congress, in the 1970's, cleverly hid $Billions of national debt away from the window (but still in the bag). Now, the balance sheet of these GSE's have nearly $19 Trillion in outstanding debt. If this Ginny is put back in the bottle, our National Debt goes to $36 Trillion.
And what can be instituted as a substitute?
I can understand a gradual increase in banks' "skin-in-the-game" plan, say 5% to 10%, of issued mortgages, but, at 100%, the system will freeze up just like the 1930s.
Even the proposed Warner-Cocker bill envisions some GSE in the future. So here we are back in the same mess again.
The problem is not F&F, it was management of these GSEs that worked their bonuses on volume rathar than quality. They walked away scott free with $ Billions in bonuses and the shareholders are left hoding the bag.
Thanks.
I visited some FNFNM and FMCC Hub spots but they were dry. So, I migrated here. We'll see if becomes active or not. Yahoo is full of "one liners" insulting and trashing each other so I stayed off. SeekingAlpha is a mature discussion group. Unfortunately, I haven't yet tapped into the continuum vein of information there. It's a hit or miss streaming of articles. I don't want to be stranded either.
As you know there will be some smart-Alick who'll predict explosive prices, and others who will put this whole issue as a folly.
If you or anyone finds a real insight into the value (or non-value) it would be helpful to all.
We never experienced a "conservatorship" before. I am not sure if anyone knows the legal standing of this entity. Not sure the originators knew either.
What does a democratic capitalist society do when it nationalizes a company or an industry?
This country is no stranger to nationalizing private property.
A few examples:
WWI and WWII we have examples of companies that were confiscated.
The drug company Bayer (aspirin)Was taken over in WWII. Returned to shareholders in the 1960s. The company prospered under US Government ownership and Stockholders profited as well.
GAF, formerly known as General Alanine and Film Company, today known for roofing products, but in WWII it was critical in making war materiel. Also, returned to stockholders in a very profitable transaction benefiting both Government and Shareholders.
AT&T was taken over in WWI under the guise of a "critically needed for national defense". Returned to shareholders after the war with enhancements.
And
All the major railroads in the USAin 1917 were taken over by the Gov't during WWI because there developed huge logjams on the rails due to incompatibility and lack of interchangeability of equipment between the different RRs. Returned in 1921, to owners after more than a $100 Million in US taxpayers' money ($10B today's $s)to improve the system.
Now, F&F have to be dealt with.
If, our legal system still works on precedent, then we have a great investment on our end. If, however, we let greedy private self-interest groups get it, we are screwed. Look up CSX takeover of Conrail under Dubye 2001.
PS I really don't want to be the only poster on this board. Anyone here can disagree and bring their input into the discussion.
This week Senators Warner *D VA) and Corker (D-TN) proposed a bill to terminate FMCC & FNMA within 5 years. They are to be replaced with US Gov't guarantees for privately funded mortgages. Duh???
What do these gentlemen think Fanny&Freddie are doing?
What shall we call these new entities? How about, Fanny and Freddie, since they'll do the same functions.
Silly as it sounds, there are few options out there to replace or even augment F& F. Why? because they worked so well for 80 years.
There need not be a "fix" for something that works so well.
Next unsolved issue:
Government confiscation of private property. Namely, my common and preferred stock in F&F.
How are you going to do that, boyz???
I'm looking for a blog site that will be open to full discussion of Federal take-down/takeover vs. return to stockholders. This may be the place. So, all discussions are for education purposes and not to hype or dump the stocks.
Having said that, I notice that there are two types of talking heads in a tug-of-war discussion that are fishtailing the stocks.
First, the CONGRESSMEN who throw out all kinds of suppression and destruction statements about the GSEs.
When the stocks fall precipitously, the second group comes to save these entities.
This group includes some Hedgies,as well as, Ralph Nader.
So obviously, there are politically well connected people who want to sequester these companies for themselves and use the congress as there fulcrum.
Stay tuned.
Well...sidedraft, did Fidelity let you purchase?
Hi sidedraft,
In April, I tried to buy more pfd thru Fidelity. Every day for three weeks I entered my buy orders only to be rebuffed by a notice to call in. When I would call, the line was always "not available for you to purchase" with some lame excuse about "protecting me". Yeh, sure, like they "protected" me from C, LEH, WAMU and AIG when they were falling like a rock.
The PFDs were racing from $3.50 to $5.50 and I was locked out. Finally, one rep sent me to FIXED INCOME DESK, and, voila, they were very happy to take my orders. So that's the ticket. Good luck.
Fannies PFD FNMFM
Freddy PFD FMCKJ
Best regards,
Phil
Hi sidedraft (from another HUB world).
This is my understanding of the $50 5.10% Fanny Mae preferred. The reason these have a higher value is, of course their $50.00 PFD liquidation value.If and when dividends are reinstated, a great possibility given the earning power, the dividend payout will be $2.55 per annum. At $15.00 PPS this will equal to 19.6% return.
Secondly,
Whereas these are perpetual, the Freddie PFD were recently reclassified as callable and the rate of payout was indexed to a formula using LIBOR 3 mos. rate plus 4.61% or 7.875% whichever is higher. Once you start playing with terms of corporate issued securities, the company enters a slippery slope of possibly extinguishing its value. The Freddies $25 callable 7.875% priced at ~$6.50 will yield 31% at current price were they to recommence PFD Dividends.
Please note that neither security is cumulative.
Nice to see familiar faces.
Hi there LTW diehards.
There should have been some kind of filing in Federal Claims Court this week. Can some one check it out?
I agree with the analysis the Fanny and Freddy are huge cash machines. However, the treasury will make every effort to make sure the stockholders are robbed of their potential profit. so look out for traps and obstacles just like WAMU. In any case, the pay off ain't going to happen 'til 2014-15 (IMHO).
And what ids this thing called "conservative ship"? Has this country turned communist, with government takeover of private enterprise by confiscation? (just like WAMU?)
People, you got to read this.
Plaintiffs (us) are claiming that judge Block made a gross error in refusing to accept these attorneys as class representatives for our cause. In effect he closed the door to further litigation by the LTWs by agreeing with JPM that the case was shot down at BK Court.
This is an appeal to overrule Block by stating that he was egregiously misguided in shutting this case down.
This is a good appeal.
PS I was surprised to see how quickly this board woke up.
US Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit
Anchor VS The United States
2013-5005 Or 13-5005
Document 32
Filed 3/4/2013.
This ought to do it.
Federal Court of Claims. The original Anchor Litigation at Judge Block's Court.
Hi there sidedraft. Need to access appeal at CFC 13-5005 document 32 3/4/13. I appreciate your abilities.
Hi there Pines holders. This board has been silent for too long.
AMR out of bankruptcy, AAR are alive and well. Reported 100% payout to all creditors. PINES are pfd 7.875% notes due 7/13/2039. Sounds like a debt to me. That'll be $25.00 please. Do I get interest for the 1 yr holdover? Possibly? Stay tuned.
The usual KUDOs to you. What would we do without you?
In the meantime, it has become common knowledge to the Courts that those @#$%^%$ at JPMC and FDIC tried to pull a fast one.
I wonder if there are compensatory damages for "fraudulent conveyance" and other shenanigans to fool the Court and the public; not to mention, the outright theft that was perpetrated against the owners of DIMEQs.
OK. Keep looking after 2/8/13
Hi sidedraft. Here's another posting that you can retrieve for us.Thanks
Notice of Supplemental Authority letter/brief is attached as filed 2/8/13 in the Delaware District Court in the Bush v. WMIH case.
It confirms that JPMC owned WAMU prior to BK.
Things are beginning to work our way!
OK. It's about time that we get some positive news.The LTWs have suffered so many setbacks since the Jan. 12, 2012 THMJW decision. I hope that the tide of battle has shifted permanently.
GOOD LUCK!
My broker took it off the inventory sheet as though it was an ordinary expired warrant (which it is not). I protested. Instead, I received a letter from my broker, who was instructed by JPM, to remove the listing. My advice. Make a copy of your July statement and keep with your tax records. Ifandwhen, you will throw this back to your broker and request complete purchase records to your initial purchase.
In the mean time, you'll have to take a capital loss on the whole amount for 2012. Ifandwhen, you will then have a zero cost basis to allocate your LONG TERM CAPITAL GAIN.
CivilWarGeneral just posted on WMIH Hub a very relevant motion made by TPS
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229110707000000000008.pdf
(Note:Sidedraft this is not a hyperlink, only you can achieve such technical miracles)
Basically this brief summarized the decision of the Supreme Court in limiting the abilities of various courts to render moot related suits that are grounded in malfeasance and other illegal acts of the parties.
It challenges the BK court's authority to take full authority for the disposition of the WMB WMI BKy where it steps on other courts jurisdiction. As we all know this is very important both to Bushes appeal and to our case in US Federal Claims court.
Also relevant was the AMICO decision that finds JPMC and FDIC colluded to take over WMB.
It also addressed the conundrum of having to sign the "exculpation clause" in order to get crumbs of settlement monies..
IT is now very clear that Judge Walrath overstepped her authority by shear bluster of her Seat. It's time to overturn her decision!
If we win. Those who signed releases can claim that they were fraudulently foisted upon them. I think the Courts will go along with that. So there is some hope.
Not to put the cart before the horse,(if we win) those who accepted nominal settlements will be at a disadvantage in the final settlement. I, for one, refused to sign a document of such gross fraudulent content as was forced on the the LTWs. It was a shocking admission of wrongdoing by JPMC and the FDIC. Imagine, a murderer agrees to admit guilt only if the prosecutors sign a release from prosecution.
cubs, I'm thinking $750m + $250M penalties, for a settlement. Now? You ask? when? where? how? That's the rub my friend. You may get it by 2020, and by that time $1B will equal to .10 p/s in today's value.
I'm serious about the award but I can't time it. We all better wish a long healthy life for ourselves, and especially, for Judge Block, who will ultimately issue the final decree on this matter.
Bush filed an answer to JPMC rebuttal. Pretty Good.
Bottom line.
FDIC transferred LTW to JPMC 1 day Sept 25 2008 before BK 9/26/2008.
It is clearly verified by JPMC (they lied in their rebuttal).
Our suit should never have been brought to Walrath's bk court. WMI was never the owner of the Anchor litigation. It was owned by WMB until FDIC transferred it to JPMC.
Walrath gave us an out in permitting us to pursue JPMC.
you all know how optimist I am about our chances. Other than brute force and corruption, we stand a mighty good chance of a substantial recovery (above the $367M bantered about).
SOOO.....BIG deal! What do the investors get? De Nada! Where does the fine go?
Yep. You found it. Thanks for the great service.
Welcome back sideraft,
Maybe you should check filings after 11/27/12?
I have it in my e-mail but I don't know how to post it here the way you usually post it. If you send me a personal reply I will e-mail it back to you.
New Court papers filed
11/26/12 LA law firm of Engsrom,Lipscomb and Lack filed in US Court of Federal Claims (CFC) case No. 95-CV-oo39 Judge Block Presiding.
The Following:
Motion in Opposition of Summery Affirmance.
If you recall, LTWs took their case to the existing, ongoing (since 1995) CFC case to be included as Intervenors on behalf of the DIMEQ holders. Their original brief was rejected by Judge Block (rather harshly IMO), based on JPMC reply to their first request. This, extremely well written, response to JPMC is devastatingly clearly stated. If granted, this will give us DIMEQ holders a solid defense team that, I am sure, will well represent us before the Court.
PS. They want to by-pass the DE BK Court completely.
PPS If Sidedraft is still on board, would you kindly post the source to this Board (just as you have diligently done in the past), thanx
It looks like The Bush appeal is going forward.