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Do you have a link to this vrng termsheet?
thanks!
Thanks for posting retjarhead.
I read the judgement--looks like our cracker-jack lawyer-owners made some rookie errors in the original submission, though luckily this has only prejudiced the case for one of our patents. Does anyone know where things stand with the other ones? As our so called expert's opinion has been deemed worthless, 3 more experts will be appointed by the courts and we'll have to pay for their opinions. more delays...
Agree with your evaluation RedAngus.
Re original question it does seem strange that ZTE would publish a press release on this when there has been no announcement as yet at http://delhihighcourt.nic.in/case.asp (our case is searchable if you type in #2168 for 2013).
Does anyone know if there is commonly a delay before the court posts its determinations (don't remember that happening previously).
CS(OS) 2168/2013 is still listed as pending on the Delhi court website.
The "last date" is still listed as August 12th 2014, which is tomorrow. There is no "next date" listed.
Interesting sense of time but perhaps there will be some news tomorrow that isn't a ZTE press release?
Thanks DMYates82.
As you noted both cases are still pending.
Though it was interesting to see that the "past date" listed for ZTE was August 12th 2014 ie Tuesday.
Do you think that was a typo for "next date" & we'll have more news on Tuesday of this week?
Thanks for the detailed thinking on ADT/Tyco, poststyle: makes sense to me.
Separately, there seem to be a lot of deleted posts on this board.
I hope someone is not deleting posts just because they don't agree with them?
Hi acrazjo: I agree we're over ready for a jump up.
The "smart money" seems to be selling the bumps on good news, to push VRNG down towards support in low $3's--and then buying again in anticipation of the next good news bump.
Of course that strategy will only work for as long as it keeps working.
At some point the news bumps will start getting bigger.
And it may no longer be possible to push VRNG back to $3.16 or lower!
Meanwhile, it looks like we have enough potential upcoming news catalysts for that anticipatory buying to start over again... though we need one piece of good news to happen in the next month or so I'd say, to keep the sellers at bay.
@acrazjo: thanks for the response.
I certainly hope that you're right ;)
Seem to recall there's an Indian legal website with case #s you can visit to get the latest news.
Can't find it, but I imagine that once it's posted VRNG will make an announcement
Interesting item in yesterday's 10K: ZTE appeal was heard in Delhi August 5th. A ruling is pending. Does anyone know how the appeal actually went:
"On January 31, 2014, we and our subsidiary, Vringo Infrastructure, filed a patent infringement lawsuit in the High Court of Delhi at New Delhi, alleging infringement of a second Indian patent related to GSM Infrastructure. The Court, finding a prima facie case of infringement, granted an ex-parte preliminary injunction, restraining ZTE and its officers, directors, agents, distributors and customers from importing, selling, offering for sale, advertising, installing, or operating any infringing products, and giving us the right to inspect any infringing goods arriving in India, which are to be detained by customs authorities. The judge granted the injunction after ruling that we would suffer an irreparable loss if such an injunction were not put into place. ZTE subsequently appealed the injunction. On August 5, 2014, ZTE's appeal was heard by the Court. A ruling is pending."
apologies for repeating this post. does anyone know what happened in delhi?
thanks!
@chrislal--to answer your question--in post #53997:
YES i was disappointed that it appeared, as stated in the 10k, that the $800K was "current period revenue ... due to a one-time payment in connection with a license and settlement agreement for certain of our owned intellectual property." In other words I assumed that "one time payment" was ALL the money we would get from Tyco and ADP. (Though others on this board are interpreting "one time payment" differently).
However, that said, I have already stated on this board that I was not expecting a meaningful payment from the Tyco/ADP suits anyway. I found it very telling that while VRNG mgt published every detail of the MSFT settlement, they insisted that the Tyco/ADP settlements were confidential. I suspect they did that so as not to publicize the relatively small amount involved, as this may have devalued the patents.
Of course I did not invest in VRNG based on the outcome of claims against Tyco/ADP.
I was just hoping for evidence that the NOKIA patents were worth more than we thought!
But the potential for $1bn+ from GOOG is what makes the stock worth buying at this price.
As well as the potential that we will soon hear good news on ZTE.
So though I would have liked to have added a small additional % to my position at $3.17, I am actually encouraged that (albeit in very light AH trade) the PPS has not broken support around $3.16-20.
Interesting item in the 10K: ZTE appeal was heard in Delhi yesterday. A ruling is pending. Anyone know how the appeal went:
"On January 31, 2014, we and our subsidiary, Vringo Infrastructure, filed a patent infringement lawsuit in the High Court of Delhi at New Delhi, alleging infringement of a second Indian patent related to GSM Infrastructure. The Court, finding a prima facie case of infringement, granted an ex-parte preliminary injunction, restraining ZTE and its officers, directors, agents, distributors and customers from importing, selling, offering for sale, advertising, installing, or operating any infringing products, and giving us the right to inspect any infringing goods arriving in India, which are to be detained by customs authorities. The judge granted the injunction after ruling that we would suffer an irreparable loss if such an injunction were not put into place. ZTE subsequently appealed the injunction. On August 5, 2014, ZTE's appeal was heard by the Court. A ruling is pending."
Disappointing item in the 10K: looks like Tyco/ADT revenue was a risible "one time payment":
"During the three month period ended June 30, 2014, we recorded total revenue of $800,000...The current period revenue was due to a one-time payment in connection with a license and settlement
agreement for certain of our owned intellectual property."
The stock is not slumping yet after hours (even though legal expenses & mgt compensation continue to rise) so I guess this is what was expected. Though AH volume is only about 12,000 shares or so. It's arguably encouraging that despite practically no new good news & a disappointment (for me at any rate) on one-time revenue from Tyco/ADT, the PPS is still holding above technical support in the $3.15--$3.20 range. FWIW I tried to buy a little more at $3.17 all day & after hours, unsuccessfully as yet.
@retjarhead: I'm not an expert on ZTE vs competitors' licensing agreements wrt the Nokia patents we now own, but would assume this relates to the GOOG ownership of Motorola? If so then perhaps this begs the bigger question of who is currently legally licensing our patents, and who is not? Anyone have visbility into this?
@copperslash, I'd say todays downward bias is just noise on well below average volume. Encouraged by reversal of previous technical support just below $3.20. Thanks for (re)posting the Sichelman data on patent appeal reversals. Does anyone know if that 75% confirmation pattern has persisted since 2010?
I endorse your optimism msprings--there are good potential catalysts coming up this week & this month, which explains why VRNG was able to ignore last week's market hiccup so far. Though I wouldn't be overly optimistic about the size of the TYCO & ADT settlements or why would VRNG have pushed through that $10MM warrant exercise & new issue?
Thank you sir. Looks like next Wednesday as I now realise.
Liking the slight technical strength in VRNG vs the NASDAQ this week.
Perhaps the possibility of some good news next week is encouraging a little short covering.
Hoping it's based on something that turns out to be substantial...
(there are a number of possible catalysts coming up, from progress in GOOG & ZTE cases to announcement of income that makes the latest agreements worth something!)
Thanks chrislal.
Duh. Shoulda looked there of course...
(had a note in my calendar from somewhere else).
Am I correct in expecting VRNG quarterly results on Monday August 4th?
Anyone believe there will be some good news to accompany results.
Am wondering whether PPS strength vs market in past few days is based on hopes for that.
Which would mean a disappointing PPS reaction to results if it's just more losses & dilution ;(
But I'd like to see confidence about major progress this year and news about successes to date!
Overall volume pretty light today despite the pop into the close.
Could just be some very minor short covering ahead of the (hopefully good!) news that's due soon.
Always good to close on the high but not enough volume to get overly excited about...
Interesting thoughts on GOOG reply--from one of the few thoughtful posters on VRNG's YHOO message board:
"Just finished reading the reply brief, to sum it up Google are trying to retry the case (this strategy will not work) but they also try to introduce new evidence (that will not be considered by CAFC) on New Adwords being colorable different without directly addressing Mr. Furrow's deposition - that is obviously damning and impossible for them to explain.
One main difference I see is how they structured their arguments promoting a constitutional argument to the top - trying to set this up for a SCOTUS hearing on a 7th amendment violation (which is just BS). This may be a sign that they know CAFC will not reverse."
Good point re initiating position here.
I started at $3.50 but was lucky enough to average down when it fell below $3 a couple of months ago. Pondering whether I should add more between $3 & $3.20 as I certainly do agree with you.
I don't see any reason (other than margin calls!) why VRNG should go down with the market when its success has nothing whatsoever to do with the strength of the economy in general or tech stocks in particular.
Yup -- me too.
I had an order in for hours today to increase my position by 5% at $3.21--didn't think i was going to get it as there seemed to be strong demand in the low $3.20s but was delighted when it came through at (amusingly) 321pm.
VRNG is my only long position right now--rest of my portfolio is short--was getting hammered for a few days but feeling better now ;)
Thanks Hornice. Apologies if my question was unclear. I'm aware that VRNG trading is driven by short term catalysts--and especially by the ABSENCE of short term catalysts. My question re analyzing the daily short sales info over longer periods of time was about whether you've seen repeated SHORT TERM patterns. But I appreciate that may not have been clear in the way I couched it ;)
Got it--thanks. We were talking about different things Hornice--ie i was asking about short interest (which is only announced every 2 weeks) while you were commenting on % of shares traded that were sold short--which can't be computed to extrapolate short interest in between announcements.
But how do you know whether 43% is a big deal # or not? Have you computed the average shares sold short per day in VRNG over a long period of time? And analyzed what happens to VRNG when the % moves above or below that number? What seems to have been happening lately is that the stock has been moving with the tech sector in the absence of other news--not just daily but intra day. Not logical for strength in INTC, IBM, AAPL to move VRNG higher, but after a down day yesterday we shall see if it opens back up today...
Thanks Hornice--still not understanding how you translate the shortvolume.com data into actual VRNG short interest in millions of shares, but appreciate the reply!
Thanks Hornice. Are you able to translate shortvolume.com data into movements in short interest? I don't want to impose on your time but I'm having trouble figuring out how to analyze this.
Where do you find daily short interest data, Hornice?
Thanks a lot!
Yes there are many better ways.
Credible well informed analysis of new news that's widely distributed & seen by people with money to invest certainly has the power to move this stock.
We could use more of that--VRNG seems to pop every time someone writes a story on seeking alpha, for example.
We certainly don't want to trade like CYNK but I imagine one reason that stock ran up the insane way it did was that that the existing shareholders didn't sell in volume every time there was a 10c+ move!
Postyle: I don't disagree re fundamental (lack of) value of the piece so far as new news is concerned. Or even up to date news. Nonetheless if it encourages some more people to study the stock & do their own dd it will help generate more momentum. I do think that management inexperience (discussed previously in the context of dilutive comp programs) arguably also extends to investor relations & especially to getting more institutions interested in VRNG...
Some of the numbers may be low, and there's not really any market moving "new news" but I'd still say that the more people who learn about VRNG and study the details, the better for stockholders! This article certainly hasn't hurt the stock price today (up 1.74%, albeit on ~average volume).
BTW: this link will take you directly to the story: http://stocks.org/technology-software/vringo-inc-nasdaqvrng-has-strong-lead-in-litigation-against-google-inc-nasdaqgoog-as-420-patent-upheld/23332/
I agreed with you guys about the fairness of the options when the management gave themselves about 12% of the ~86 million fully diluted shares that were out there earlier this year. I think management should be motivated! But then, in May of this year, I received the annual proxy statement indicating that management decided to award an additional ~30 million shares to themselves, the board & the lawyers (mostly themselves of course). This 36% dilution to the shareholders like you and me who actually bought their stock at market price is what you and other posters are calling "perfectly normal and reasonable".
I guess you (& they) feel that $900,000/year salary is so "cheap" that further compensation is needed.
I personally thought that 12% of the company was a large enough gift already and that fortune 100 company level salaries were outrageous.
But the 36% dilution to the shareholders back in June was beyond disturbing.
I do believe that the opportunity for VRNG is huge but wish we had a more experienced board with better governance--who weren't acting like little kids who were just given the keys to the cookie jar for the first time ever. That hurts the credibility of our company and makes quality institutional investment harder to attain. Not to mention that I'm dreading the backlash when shareholders who didn't bother to open or read their proxy statements (or vote at the annual meeting) learn that the fully diluted share count is now ~116 million & no longer the 86 million that is still frequently mentioned on this board ;(
Bizarre WSJ story this evening.
Not sure which lobby is pushing for what, or what exactly are the implications for VRNG.
But would love to hear from any expert opinions for a clear POV.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/critics-fault-courts-grip-on-appeals-for-patents-1404688219?mod=WSJ_hp_RightTopStories
Thanks Copperslash--I was previously on the Yahoo Finance board but it's very adversarial & annoyingly childish. Has many more times the posts than this one, but they contain, in total, a lot less thoughtful content. (Though there are a handful people who seem very knowledgeable about patent law. Plus the occasional gem who attends hearings, reads transcripts & posts in thoughtful detail).
That said I don't think it's ever healthy to angrily ignore opposing points of view to your own. Never smart to allow contrary opinions to scare you into relinquishing strong positions prematurely, of course.
But also not wise to refuse to completely ignore information & analysis you don't agree with.
Vringo has defensible patents, decent lawyers & strong arguments--collection potential is massive, though not rapid. My big hope for VRNG is either that management pays attention to the shareholders & becomes more fiscally responsible--or that the cases are settled quickly before they can damage the stock price further with irresponsible dilution and salary driven burn rate acceleration. I'll be equally happy either way, tho I think we need help from the former as GOOG & ZTE aren't going to cave til they have to;)
If we had more aggressive institutional shareholders they would put pressure on management of course, which would be great. Thats also an opportunity!
@Copperslash: I am a VRNG stockholder so I got my information from the 2014 annual proxy materials, back in May. most shareholders don't read the proxy materials and don't vote which is why many managements know they can get away with behavior like this. If you're not a shareholder and did not receive the proxy materials you can get the same information on Edgar when the 10Ks are published. Believe it or not I am not bashing my own stock--just hoping to educate the shareholders to vote their shares, so that VRNG management stops diluting us so egregiously.
I do however find it truly ironic that while VRNG's business depends on a team of lawyers it may take a shareholder lawsuit to convince the management to stop fleecing us. That said I'm curious as to what makes you think that tripling annual salaries to $900,000 and expanding the fully diluted stock from 86 million shares to over 115 million shares to provide EVEN MORE options for management, the lawyers & the board is "not excessive" granted the size & progress of Vringo. Prior to giving themselves these extra 30 million shares, management, board & the lawyers owned 17% of the company. You can do the math yourself to see how much they own now. I'm actually scared they will help themselves to over half the company over the next couple of years if they continue at this rate ;(
That 36% dilution for May 2014 alone really pissed me off. Perhaps it's ok if we just decline from a ten bagger to a double or a triple after management has finished rewarding themselves in this "not excessive" manner, but it's disappointing to me after all the time I spent researching VRNG.
I hope you're right Captart7--though i can't help feeling that if those settlement numbers were that spectacular then news would have leaked out to the market by now one way or another. Regrettably I think this is just greed + fiduciary inexperience on the part of our management. The best thing they could do to fix this imho is to publicly state that they will not issue themselves any more options or sell any more stock for a couple of years. I think that might restore credibility enough to bring more institutions into VRNG. But because they've been getting away with this so far I think they will simply keep going until successful legal action by the shareholders.
@sergfro: the real management compensation issue at VRNG is not that they're all selling more shares than they buy. Almost all insiders do that. It's the overly high management salaries for the current size of the company PLUS the shocking levels of dilution in the last trip to the trough (a total of 36% dilution for regular shareholders like you and me, when you include all the grants to management, board members & lawyers listed in the information sent out to shareholders prior to the annual meeting).
I voted against the compensation recommendation as did (encouragingly) a large number of shareholders representing almost 10% of shares outstanding), but of course the vast majority of shareholders didn't bother to read the disclosures and so didn't vote at all. The truth is that if management votes (for themselves!) are excluded the shareholders who did vote were clearly AGAINST the new compensation agreements. So at least the message has been sent.
The management team simply has no credibility when it comes to good governance & representing the interests of shareholders. Which really is a big problem for getting the kind of institutional buying VRNG needs to achieve its full potential. The shareholder lawsuit will hopefully help tamp down further management greed (lets be charitable & call it "fiduciary inexperience"). But the damage may already have been done as the street realizes that the "fully diluted" number of shares outstanding is no longer 86 million but well over 115 million due to the additional options the management just awarded themselves (because, I'm guessing, they didn't think that salary raises from $300,000 per year to $900,000 per year were enough to justify all their hard work).
The sad truth is that they're comfortable selling so much stock with such wild abandon because they're simultaneously issuing themselves with options for even more stock, so that their share of the company is still growing rapidly even as they take so much cash out of it. I fear that this will become a business school case study in bad governance. Our only hope as shareholders is that there is a huge settlement soon with GOOG and ZTE, thereby reducing the runway for further "improvements" to management comp.
However this kind of management behavior & the potential it creates for weakened VRNG credibility & momentum must be seriously encouraging GOOG & ZTE to string things out even longer in the hope that VRNG will run out of money.
At some point the patience of existing shareholders will snap & VRNG won't be able to raise any more money, period. I have no idea what that point will be, but I do know that if management compensation continues to balloon out of control it will be sooner rather than later. Would love to hear what other shareholders think can be done to get this under control.
thanks for the warm welcome banger187.
perhaps you're right, altho oddly enough (albeit on low volume so far) vrng is continuing to trade in the pre-market by making more new highs above friday's closing price, ie over & above the new highs that were posted after hours on friday--rather than giving up those allegedly "technical" russell related gains that those far wiser posters than me pointed out were merely a temporary aberration.
perhaps it was arguable on friday that russell related technical price movements were more likely to move the price of vrng around vwap than to push the stock to new highs.
so that there might have been a couple of different influences on the stock price after hours. and heaven forbid postyle & i were actually both right.
we shall see what happens... vrng has been a trading vehicle for a while, & its price performance has certainly made me look stupid on occasion.
it has also made far far wiser folks than me look stupid.
funny how that can happen...
Thanks for the welcome postyle. Will take your word for it. Though I wasn't aware VRNG was actually in any of the Russell indexes?
Seems unlikely that the VRNG after hours is vwap related/late posted trades when the stock is making new highs in what looks like orderly trading.
Perhaps early signs of a realization that the knee jerk selling in response to the warrants is now over.
Let's see what happens next week.