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Yup and when the ask is hit repeatedly they move their ask up, because they likely don't even have those shares to sell.
It's an artificial brick wall.
As per page 22 of the P&A, if the FDIC is invoking this clause, then it has to be a deposit.
http://www.fdic.gov/about/freedom/Washington_Mutual_P_and_A.pdf
Article V (as in 9.5)
Duties with Respect to Depositors of the Bank
Glad I could help.
It really would help if these people would put together at least semi educated arguments.
It does help to know legal precedents before making those kinds of claims.
http://www.fincriadvisor.com/2009-08-09/bankholdingcompanyvsFDIC
The FDIC long has held that a holding company is 100% responsible for the capital guarantee, has no leverage to question this, and that FDIC's claim against the holding company is of virtually the highest priority in bankruptcy. But the decision handed down last June by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals says FDIC is not correct. Instead, FDIC's claim against the holding company for not coming through on the guarantee now can be sidestepped. Plus, any resulting claim by FDIC under Chapter 7 bankruptcy can be relegated to a lower priority.
"The FDIC has uniformly taken the position in these cases that a parent holding company's obligations under a performance guarantee are absolute and not subject to avoidance," Reisner says - even though this is not the case in other industries and with other holders of guarantees.
That's because "fraudulent transfer" laws prohibit the transfer of assets or placing obligations for less than reasonable value if the transaction makes the company insolvent, Reisner explains. FDIC contended that it had immunity from the fraudulent transfer laws under the Federal Deposit Insurance Act. Imperial, on the other hand, said it was not obliged to pay the $18 million deficit, and the matter ended up in court, where Imperial was ordered to pay up within 30 days. This forced it into Chapter 7 to fulfill the $18 million claim.
Imperial appealed, and the 9th Circuit Court - while agreeing that Imperial may owe the $18 million by statute - ruled that the guarantee could be challenged as a fraudulent transfer and that FDIC did not have high priority under Chapter 7, below that of taxing authorities, employee wages and other claims.
"This ‘leveling of the playing field' is important for holding companies and their boards who must guide the company in the best interest of all creditors," Chesley says. What's more, FDIC now is a potential target for recovery for holding company creditors, he adds, pointing out similar efforts by creditors of Washington Mutual Bank (WaMu).
Bonderman never owned stock in WMB. From everything I read only WMI owned stock in the bank.
I'm pretty sure people have dig up documents showing that by the time of the seizure Providian was owned by WMB. If that's the case then WMI's only course of action is what we're seeing, which is going after the FDIC for taking it without paying for it.
20 from WM FSB and 4 from WMI.... Where's Lehman's 16?
Docs up...
Tomorrow's hearing has been "altered".
Any experts want to translate from legalise to english?
http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_%28A_to_Z%29/Stocks_L/threadview?m=te&bn=10602&tid=250826&mid=250826&tof=1&frt=2#250826
The NOL refund is a good reason why shares will NOT be canceled.
A BIG bank might make a ton from equity, but the days of WaMu as a major bank are over. If they scale down, which they undoubtedly will do if they don't merge with someone else or just liquidate, then the NOLs will likely be worth more than they'd raise with equity.
"The bottom line is that a large part of financing a business comes from issuing shares, and if you think they are going to restructure without taking advantage of the ability to redistribute their equity and issue new shares so they can pay their creditors without handing over all of their shares, then imo, you're crazy.
All the longs better hope that WMI won't try to restructure before the FDIC settles, because if they do, it's game over, no joke. We'll have to see how Weil plays it, but imo, they are way too good at what they do to keep these current shares alive.
Have a good night!"
As many of you guys know, I had to put the WaMuQ'd "documentary" on hold because it felt like as soon as I finished recording narration for things, we had updates that would require me to go back and update or correct things and it just got to be out of control, so it's on hold until we more closer to closure.
This kind of limited the youtube exposure that trust me, was well beyond what I expected, even if the numbers don't reflect the actual hits... which I might add were reset somehow at least twice and which hurt, especially the WaMu Truth video.
Now just to give a little insight into how this works, anyone searching wamu or washington mutual and jp morgan in google that happens to check videos will have "The True Story of The Downfall of Washington Mutual: Facts That Must Be Addressed" pop up as the top hit.
So last night I was in a mood and really bored. About 2am I just decided to rant a little. It's ugly, but it's the truth.
I had a sell order in for... 2.50 and I pulled it for that very reason. There's a chance for these things to pop well above 2.50 and quickly.
I don't want to sell that many, just enough to cover what I spent on them so I'll be riding freebies, but I don't want to get caught with my pants down either.
I'm REALLY looking forward to the coming week and I've got to be honest, I haven't felt more confident in a lotto play ever.. and I was REALLY positive my WAMPQs were worth far more than the buck and change I paid for them.
All of the sudden the massive amount of these beauties I scooped up on the down low have me drooling for the weekend to be over and posting here on a Friday night.
I for one had an extremely difficult time buying today around 2:30. I was trying to buy some Q for my dad and the bid/ask was .224 x .226. They refused to fill me at 2.6 for about 15 minutes. Sells were supposedly going through at .224 and then some zipped through at .226 and within seconds the ask jumped to .229. I bought at .229 and then seconds later the ask dropped to .228.
It's annoying as anything and they certainly weren't about to fill MY purchase at the ask of .226.
Sometimes you get lucky and buy into the direction they're looking to move it. Handfuls of shares are usually tossed out there for that purpose with the bulk of the orders being null.
I know some people don't want to believe it. But it's happened to me far too many times now to pretend they aren't jerking the pps around like there's no tomorrow.
Jestiron- Got your message. Yeah, I'm convinced it's all good. Wish I was working so I could by a bunch more.
If someone asked me a year ago where I'd want to be today with this, shy of settled, done, and laying on a beach... this would be the next best thing.
Not only is JPM getting it's butt kicked, we KNOW they're getting their butt kicked. We know of negotiations.
This is like looking forward to the end of a long running tv show, only when it's over... they pay us for our tiny role in supporting it.
sorry I donn't still have private messages on here. If anyone does and wants to do me a favor, please forward this to Jestiron for me.
Thanks gang. Keep the faith. Sooner or later there will be a straw that breaks the camels back.
As was mentioned on yahoo... there was a lengthy period of time between wamu's demise and the court order on stock ownership. If JPM is sitting on a boatload of shares, it's likely they stockpiled them for pennies just after the seizure.
Yeah but its not being picked up elsewhere. Its on eTrade Pro though...
How did WMI have a Net Operating Loss before WMB was taken from them? They surely had tax returns, but NOLs are different.
"WMI and WMB when together had the NOL's, so theoretically putting them back together should not cause them to lose anything, the NOL's would just be whole again...imo"
Gonna be kinda hard for JPM to take advantage of the massive NOLs if they "merge" with WMI, as that would put WMI and WMB back together, negating the NOLs.
That's a big part of the equation that leads me to believe someone else will wind up having WMI merge into them.
Right now WMI want's money for infringement of intellectual property and will try to force JPM to eat as much debt as possible to clean up the books so as to make themselves more attractive to a third party.
Just my guess anyway.
"JPMC will assume and negotiate all existing debts of WMI and will virtually merge with WMI to take advantage of all tax returns, bank accounts and NOL's and write-offs."
It doesn't scare me... If that is indeed the case... which the deposit slips seem to negate anyway, then divy the money up accordingly.
What in the world gives them the right to steal WMI's money because it was "co-mingled" with WMB's money?
If that's the case, then unmingle it... and move on.
Regardless, I stand by my assertion that if the FDIC had any right to the 4 billion then they could have and should have sold the bank for as little as 1 dollar... They also should have held the assets for liquidation and backstopped them with the 4 billion.
Selling 4 billion for a fraction of 1.9 billion is irrational. Claiming you couldn't get oodles of billions from those assets because of a risk to the FDIC fund when you've got 4 billion in cash on hand to backstop them with is completely ridiculous.
What did Citi bid on and how much did they offer? Lets get an unredacted copy so we can see if the FDIC acted in good faith in an attempt to try to protect the fund at the expense of unsecured debtors or if they colluded to steal a bank and hand it to JPM along with 2 billion in cash... for nothing in return.
If the FDIC had any claim to that money then JPM got back double what they paid... I'm sure a jury of baboons would see right through that.
"The FDIC response was almost what I was expecting. The co-mingle of the money. This is what scares me."
Sheesh, I was just there a few weeks back to see Star Trek on the IMax. I didn't even notice.
Thanks for the heads up.
"theres a Wamu branch intact at the Palisades mall in Nanuet NY off of I 87"
I'm actually looking for the WaMu banks that still say WaMu, but those unique looking WaMu buildings with JPM logos wouldn't be too bad to get either.
Hey Grey,
So far I've found 3 of them. 2 in monmouth county by me and one up North Jersey.
I shot video at the two by me and I have to go back up north to find the third.
Do you know where abouts the one you saw was?
I'm trying to get video/pictures of them all so I have footage to use.
You got a picture of it?
If you did and you don't mind sharing... please send it to me.
wamuqd@aol.com
I'm not questioning what you saw. I'm questioning if it could have been an older commercial that perhaps you hadn't seen before.
Why would they do that? I thought all of the branches were switched over to JPMC on June 1.
I can't imagine they'd still be using the WaMu name and Logo.
Maybe it was an old commercial.
I don't think they really had the chance. I think they could have had a hearing on it sooner. But I also think they were having issues with the records and finding the proper account numbers.
At some point I do think they had to have realized this 4 billion could be the lynch pin that unravels the FDIC's whole argument that they had no time to work out a better deal.
My thoughts on the 4 billion...
I also posted this on yahoo.
Put aside your ideas about who owns the 4 billion and what's fair and the fact that it was supposedly sold for 1.9 billion. Leave that baggage out of this thought.
Now, Bair claims she sold it to JPM as part of the whole bank and has said if it's not JPMs then it belongs to the FDIC.
My point is as follows. By claiming such, Bair just stepped in crap.
If she had access to 4 billion dollars then there was no critical time sensitive need to sell everything as a "whole bank" transaction.
The FDIC is supposed to get fair market value for assets held in receivership. They didn't and up until now it seems the only footing she has to stand on as an excuse is that circumstances were spiraling out of control and she had no time to do anything others than to sell it all... and sell it cheaply so the tax payers wouldn't take a hit.
But if the FDIC actually had 4 billion dollars to play with, they could have held onto all of the assets for a LONG LONG time just using the 4 billion to sustain everything as it was systematically sold off at fair market value.
There's nothing Bair can say or do to get around this fact, other than to say she didn't even know about the money... which would then call into question the facts used to justify the seizure.
So long as Bair claims the money is JPM's or the FDIC's she's opened the door for WMI to claim that instead of using the money to prolong the FDIC's receivership of WaMu's assets she simply gave it to JPM.
I think WMI has allowed this 4 billion dollars to stay in flux for this long to goad Bair into exactly what she's done... she's claimed the FDIC had the right to sell (or not sell) that money in the transaction.
If Bair thought she had access to the money then there were no circumstances anywhere in the universe that could have caused her to NEED to sell everything all at once to "protect" the tax payer. They could probably have held onto the assets for years with that kind of money as a backstop.
I still hold out hope that the two will team up on JPM and combine their attack into a massive full on frontal assault.
We'll see I guess...
"WAMU / LEHMAN - who will cripple JPM first?"
I already special ordered a helper monkey named Mojo.
All rockets are go.
"Tell Marge you'll probably be moving to a Bigger House, but this one in the shape of of DohNut!"
If this isn't over by summer's end my last 3 Homer Simpson'esque hairs will be gone.
In truth, my accumulation ended once we saw the prefs spike. I'm holding strong and antsy as all heck. So trust me, I know why you feel the way you do.
It's always darkest just before dawn, or so they say. In this case it was REALLY dark months ago and I feel like we're starting to see the first glimmers of morning light.
I'm usually pretty pessimistic but in this case, for some reason, I'm not.
I do have my moments though.
"Fair enough. I see your point and agree, it is working for someone and there is always a flip side."
Based on what we know... perhaps.
The truth is that we have no idea what's going on behind the scenes.
We're pushing 9 months now. If it's not settled within the next 3 months I'll look back in agreement. We've got several issues coming to a head right now along with lots of settlement talk.
We'll know more as we progress, but the frustration I feel is that of anything I'm looking forward to. For me this could be life changing. I can deal with the restlessness for as long as I have to knowing full well the only reason I currently hold the position I do is solely because this has taken soooooo long to work out.
In a way the lack of efficiency of the system has certainly played into my favor. So waiting is boring, but at the same time, I couldn't be happier with the hand I'm holding so I really can't complain.
"The "system" is not working in any way at all for any one involved but the lawyers."
I raised the same point. If she can rule before the next hearing then she can rule any time. At least one article said she might rule by next month. Next month is 10 days away.
Not saying its going to happen... but just be alert and don't assume nothing can happen until the 24th.
How else could she decide "before?"
I agree with you. I'm guessing and that's all anyone can do at this juncture.
Anyone know why someone dumped over 2 million shares of JPM at the bid right around 4pm today?
That's a lot of dough. I wonder if it was an insider. I don't know too many common folk with that kind of a portfolio.
I guess it's probably completely unrelated to WaMu at all in any way.
"JPM will not experience a sell off. As a matter of fact, JPM'S share price has a better chance of 'rising', than have a 'sell off' during this time frame. July 6 will be here soon enough. No use debating who is correct on our expectations. Proof will be JULY 6."
Settlement Prediction....
I'm calling it. I believe it happens sometime between now and July 6th. JPM will use the dividend to try to keep their shareholders from selling on bad news...
"The Board of Directors of JPMorgan Chase & Co. (NYSE:JPM) today declared a quarterly dividend of 5 cents per share on the outstanding shares of the corporation’s common stock. The dividend is payable on July 31, 2009, to stockholders of record at the close of business on July 6, 2009."
http://newsticker.welt.de/?module=smarthouse&id=891531
Just my 2 cents.
Don't worry... we're paupers for now. But I sure wish I could hoard these things.
Locked and loaded. I've got all I could ever afford to hold... and a little something extra. I'm gonna try to scoop up some Lehman trust shares for the girlfriend tomorrow as well. She wants in after seeing what happened to WaMu, which is nothing compared to what will happen to WaMu.
I hope I have a chance to get her some. This could get interesting tomorrow.
Then again... who knows, maybe nothing happens for months.
But something will happen. I'm quite confident of that.
Lets get this show on the road. Vegas is calling.
Important Lehman info...
As per yahoo...
http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_(A_to_Z)/Stocks_L/threadview?m=te&bn=10602&tid=241680&mid=241680&tof=1&frt=2#241680
Don't look now but Marsal and team are asking the court to compel Barclay's to hand over documents adding up to large sums of money that Barclay's never paid or got too much in assets among other monies.
Here's the court doc...
http://chapter11.epiqsystems.com/viewdocument.aspx?DocumentPk=f6216d51-1d0d-49c3-9396-12af162cce57
Also from Coach over on yahoo...
I had an interesting conversation with a representative at Marsal about Lehman via telephone. I had a chance to ask her about the secured/unsecured debt and the non-debtor companies. I about fell out of my chair when I had the opportunity to spend time with her (it took me 3 weeks).
She said that there was not much secured debt left...reading between the lines, I got the feeling that it had been matched and liquidated during the sept/oct 2008 timeframe.
I asked her about the remaining debt and non-debtor companies and if they were part of what Mr. Marsal refers to when he talks about the 200B here and there.
She gave me the following info...they are calculating off of the original spreadsheet dated 09/14/08 and released thru the first MOR that had ops thru 12/08 (released 01/29/09). Also, that the non-debtor companies are being included when Mr. Marsal refers to Lehman in general.
Debt:
Short-term borrowings and current portion of long-term borrowings....$23,686B
Total financial instruments and other inventory positions sold but not yet purchased....$34,057B
Collateralized financings....$10,339B
Payables....$10,623B
Deposits at banks....$12,401B
Senior notes....$66,491B
Subordinated notes....$15,254B
Total....$172,851B (basically everything under "Total LBHI controlled entities" liabilities except the monies owed between LBHI companies).
I asked her about the recievables and liabilities between LBHI companies and whether they just about net out and she agreed in lay terms with some accounting adjustments here and there.
When you calculate the total LBHI controlled assests less intercompany receiveables you get about $626,240B total assests less the receivables of $393,620B and you get $232,620B.
$232,620 minus $172,851B leaves 59,769B Net assets. Now they report that the commercial, residential and mortgage has lost half in its value since the filing thru mark to market by third party. Approx. 45B. Now you are down to 59B minus 45B or 14B.
There is 13B of Preferred stock as of the same spreadsheet.
She also did not know whether the preferred trusts were included in the secured unsecured debt categories or part of the preferred shares under stockhoder liability on the speadsheet.
For my money...the risk/reward for bonds and preferreds is there for the taking until bonds move higher and also the preferreds.
Do your own due diligence. This is total speculation until better numbers are released. I just had questions on how to better interpret the numbers released last year and wanted to share my conversation with the people at Marsal.
http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_(A_to_Z)/Stocks_L/threadview?m=te&bn=10602&tid=241675&mid=241675&tof=2&frt=2#241675
A lot of people have done a lot more than I have. No need to thank me. They deserve it a lot more than I do.
We're all in this together. I just think it's groovy how many cool (intelligent) peeps are involved here.
"You are the man WaS, Indeed newbies who haven't been reading every doc to spill through the gates of kcc for the last 8 months have no idea what is REALLY going on here. Thank you for your efforts, they are much appreciated."
contractor... I hear you LOUD and clear. I just don't have private messaging capabilities anymore. I'm on a budget these days. :O)
7 posts remaining.
Big time...
And it was REALLY amazing to read that Texas suit documentation and to see how much of the info I put into the original WaMu truth video made it into that thing. Quotes, sources, etc... it was like seeing the video, enhanced by later iHub/yahoo research and merged with other goodies we could never have foreseen.
But all in all, I don't think there have been many if any points in history where the research and tenacity of shareholders has played such a big role in not only getting the word out, but also "helping" the fricken legal team!
"Many folks just showing up here have NO CLUE what early shareholders have done getting WAMU publically noticed, and all of it was long before any Lawsuits started making headlines..."
Blue screening my face might work. I might be more effective as a headless body. Besides, my bald head gives off a heck of a glare. :O)
Thanks for the props.
I don't really want notoriety. I wouldn't even bother if other people would have gotten involved.
ANYONE with a video camera or webcam... throw a wamu inspired hissy and send me the video. I'll work you in there.
The more faces the more people will realize how many people were effected.
I've got a little more "in the can" so to speak, but I'm going to be moving in a week or two so I'm holding off. I'm hoping to blue screen myself into some of it so there's at least one face involved... and that way it's a little more personal.
It's all written up and stuff... through the current info. It's just a matter of having the time to set up some lights and reading it off, some of it in front of a camera.
It's sad no one else wants to be in it. My face is not exactly a thing of beauty.
Even if you're right and I don't think that you are completely correct, my "greed" has limitations. I can't justify getting in bed with evil for the sake of financial stability or wealth building.
Now when you say pawn... sure, the shareholders are still the pawns. If you own JPM shares you're not the CEO of JPM who isn't going to get burned, will have inside knowledge as to when to dump his shares, or will have his equity losses covered by massive bonus money...
You on the other hand are always expendable and will never merge with the power elite by investing in their corporate shells.
The well connected corrupt individual will walk away unscathed and ready to cash in another day. We are easily sacrificed for TARP or whatever the next fascist/socialist/globalist plan they have in store.
Our nation has shown it's changing. The recent G-20 meeting told me everything I need to know about what the expect in our future.
Big banks gobbling up smaller banks, then bigger banks gobbling them up, until we have nothing but central banks interconnected via global hub.
It's cool if you don't agree. I hate even talking about this stuff because most people refuse to see what's going on. Some of it is out of fear. Some out of disbelief. Some because it sounds more like science fiction than the nightly news.
But you don't have to look very far to find the direct quotes from the world's elite telling us what's coming. They brag about it. Now we can see their decades of hard work coming to fruition and we're in denial about it.
None of what we're seeing now makes any sense until you put it into the context of what drives these people which is a one world government with a one world currency... where THEY control every aspect of your life.
I don't believe you can fight corruption of this scale. But you can warn people of what's coming and hope that they will protect themselves any way they can... that's all I was trying to do by voicing my concerns about the market. And that's all was trying to do in this post.
Hopefully you won't take this as an attack against you or anyone else that disagrees with me. Just file it away in the back of your mind for further contemplation as future events unfold.
"Some even believe we are a part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty and I am proud of it." - David Rockefeller from his book, David Rockefeller: Memoirs.
"The one aim of these financiers is world control by the creation of inextinguishable debts." - Henry Ford
"We are grateful to the Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years... "It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But the work is now much more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government." "The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto determination practiced in past centuries." - David Rockefeller, Trilateral Commission 1991
"In the next century, nations as we know it will be obsolete; all states will recognize a single, global authority. National sovereignty wasn't such a great idea after all." - Strobe Talbott, Former U.S. Deputy Secretary of State 1992
"The Rockefeller File is not fiction. It is a compact, powerful and frightening presentation of what may be the most important story of our lifetime - the drive of the Rockefellers and their allies to create a one-world government combining super-capitalism and Communism under the same tent, all under their control..." - Congressman Larry P. McDonald who on 31 August 1983, was killed aboard Korean Airline 007 flight which "accidentally" strayed over Soviet airspace and was "accidentally" shot down.