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DOE selection does not guarantee success.
Everybody harps on this, and so did I but I thought NEAH was further along then they apparently are.
Being selected to get assistance is a good thing, however its not a complete testament to the viability of a product, its more a roll of the dice even by the DOE.
Here is one that passed the vetting process yet failed.
http://dailysignal.com/2012/11/30/green-graveyard-revolt-technology-bites-the-dust/
This was an ARPA E grant which are big dollars..
All we can do is speculate, its up to D'Couto to tell us where they are actually at. Have they ever really produced a working battery that can be placed into a device to power it, or are they still just playing in the lab like they did with Fuel Cells.
Unfortunately they don't even have a lab anymore, they have to pay someone else to play in a lab...
JMHO
Bill
That's true.
If SPIN'S version of facts was true, then the DOE would have partnered NEAH with these guys instead...maybe.
http://www.anl.gov/cnm/downloads/center-nanoscale-materials-fact-sheet
The only thing we can hope is the SBIR/STTR believes D'Couto's line of bull and gives him a REAL grant.
Then maybe the stock will pop and I can sell all the way out, cause at this rate the 5.4 Billion AS will be exhausted within the year and its gonna be 1:200 reverse split time again for NEAH.
D'Couto has only himself to blame for his lack of transparency, unfortunately it may be due to his lack of a real technology.
JMHO
Bill
Well, since the SBV voucher scope describes a "deconstuctive" analysis to characterize the battery , the project lead that NEAH has publicized does that type of work and runs that type of equipment then your theory basically says that D'Couto lied.
The lie being that they already had batteries to study and what services the DOE program was to provide for NEAH.
NEAH has a $300,000.00 voucher for services, that's it, nothing more.
Building a battery from scratch through the technical problems and coming up with a workable end product from that stage would take 10's of millions of dollars not $300,000.00 dollars
You are basically saying that NEAH has not built a battery yet, they just have a design, you are saying they are relying on Argonne to build the initial battery, yet NEAH claimed to be in a deal to produce 100 units for Liquid Image.
If what you say is true, then NEAH is destined to fail since they are 93% there already, have no employees, no money and are 5 years at least from a prototype which may be marketable and they don't have any money to sustain 5 years of Battery R and D.
JMHO
Bill
This from a NEAH article in Washington news.
"With assistance of the national laboratory, Neah Power hopes to identify the changes that need to be made so the practical application matches up with the theoretical modeling.
There’s long been a search to build a better battery that can store and produce more energy and “live forever and cost nothing,” said Ira Bloom, senior chemist and group leader at Argonne National Laboratory."
Ira Bloom is the Group Lead at the Post Test Facility and the chemical-analysis-and-diagnostics-laboratory-eadl at Argonne, not a battery design lead.
https://www.anl.gov/cse/group/post-test-facility
https://www.anl.gov/cse/group/electrochemical-analysis-and-diagnostics-laboratory-eadl
The deconstructive testing will break the battery apart so they can study the battery materials in a pure environment, that is where they will learn about the existing "recipe" and its problems.
The answer is in the Technology group NEAH's grant was given in. If it was Battery R&D which is building a battery then the Technology Group would have been in Vehicles Technology because that is where the Battery R & D Program is under.
NEAHs grant is in Advanced Manufacturing thus they are looking at material composition.
JMHO
Bill
I am not trying to "SHORT" this stock although that would be a more profitable strategy.
No need to bash this stock, just need to wait for them to not execute.
I was actually just responding to the insinuation you made that Argonne was commenting on NEAHs battery when that is not what it is.
Argonne has made no comments on the batt at this time. Anything like that would be announced in a news letter on the DOE site.
They are going to work on the battery as it has merit, but not ready for prime time, and it won't be ready for prime time anytime soon. No reason to expect news on that front soon and $300,000.00 worth of research is not going to get it there.
D'Couto with his articles somewhat misrepresented the readiness of the batt by an omission of info, that is all I am saying.
JMHO
Bill
Argonne is one of the labs involved in the program, the reviewers match the lab to the SBV request.
From the Q and A.
"Q.1 Do I need to identify a specific lab and investigator?
A.1 Applicants are not required to identify a specific lab or investigator. Unless otherwise specified, applicants are matched to labs in the review process. In this process, reviewers align requests with the best-suited laboratory to complete the work requested. "
JMHO
Bill
Once again, this is NEAH speak, If you don't recognize NEAH's hype language after 10 years of hearing them hype the same attributes to their fuel cells you have not been reading their PRs.
In this link you provided in a Prior post is where NEAH and Argonne are at.
https://www.sbv.org/projects/am-round2-neah.html
Off to the right is an "Award Amount", " Project Term" and "Project Status" if you look at the some other company links you will see them "ACTIVE" or " In Negotiation"....you don't see that on the NEAH info...it says "12 Months"
Looks like they haven't started yet...
The link below shows that NEAH or SBIR/STT set the TRL level of the battery.
http://defenseinnovation.us/partner/showcase/pop.php?i=2210
Set at TRL-4.
TRL 4 is a breadboard set up in a lab to prove that parts work together as postulated.
There is no lying to the DOD and that is where the battery is, if it was further along they would have set it to a higher Tech Readiness Level.
JHMO
Bill
I find it amusing that you choose to believe or hype that those statements were made by Argonne.
Those statements are from NEAH's submission.
At the point that was published Argonne most likely did not know much about the Battery or NEAH.
This is what NEAH gets for the max $300,000.00
"Q.3 How much do the vouchers provide?
A.3 The scope of work for each voucher depends heavily on the technology area and implementing lab. In general, a $50,000 voucher will provide approximately six weeks of service and a $300,000 project provides access to one full-time employee for 12 months."
See above...do not expect the world from one full time employee for 12 months...
JMHO
Bill
2017 is 1 month away. There may be more selling with end of year tax selling. Today was a stinker..many more ahead.
Today and tommorrow D'Couto is trying to convince the SBIR to give him some "Startup" cash, because he has...." A lithium metal battery built using computer chip manufacturing technologies. This provides a low cost, high energy density, long lifetime battery. Applicable for dismounted soldier to grid scale. This would reduce the payload (weight) for different missions."
This is pretty much verbatim, the wording used to try to push his "FUEL CELLS" the last 10 years....
He is relying on Argonne to figure it out for him.
" Through the SBV Pilot, the company will utilize Argonne National Laboratory staff and expertise to determine the optimal metallization scheme for porous silicon as well as reliable and reproducible processes and insights into possible causes of degradation, capacity fade and dendrite growth. "
However there may be a "snag" as The DOE site still does not show the project as "active". They have updated the site as Round 3 is shown as "Closed".
Oh well, this is just more NEAH acting like NEAH. My guess is that despite the bruhaha D'Couto may not even have a battery for Argonne to study. He said he sent them some papers...what more do they need ?
The lab will be closed from dec 23rd thru Jan 4th..probably not much happening on that front, or any front.
JMHO
Bill
Not sure what you are rambling about as you already know transparency is not in D'Couto's nature.
1/4 of the DOE Grant/Project is not expired as it has not even started yet. The Status shows as " Project Term 12 months" "Project Status 12 months".
They will start shaving time when the " Project Status is ACTIVE " the dollar amounts will be shaved off as lab time, equipment time is billed against the voucher. Once the project starts, they start billing against it, if it reaches $300,000.00 before 12 months is up, the project stops unless they can get another grant from another source.
There is no guarantee of success and with NEAH there may be no follow through either.
JMHO
Bill
Will NEAH fall into this category ?
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/534866/why-we-dont-have-battery-breakthroughs/
D'Couto says the work with Argonne has begun, The DOE website does not concur. They do not show the project active, is D'Couto having trouble getting them a battery to de-construct ?
He said he sent them some papers...probably went like this.." Uh yeah this is the design for our battery. Can you build one and then study it, then send us the completed product ?...whaddaya mean that's more than $300,000.00 ? We don't have any money ! I need another grant already !
Lots of questions but as usual no answers from NEAH.
JMHO
Bill
What stage is NEAH's battery really at a year or more after we first started hearing about it's amazing capacity.
We cannot rely on D'Couto to honestly tell us where its at as he has relied on some vague comments in articles not even in PRs to distance himself from any of it. There is no information on the website about the battery so we must look elsewhere, places that he has to disclose and not be able to to be forward looking but be very honest about where it is at.
http://defenseinnovation.us/partner/showcase/pop.php?i=2210
D'Couto will go plead NEAH's case at the SBIR/STTR innovation summit, he gets a small amount of time to convince them to give him money to move forward with development. This is good for NEAH, but in the application to be allowed to present he had to disclose the stage at which the development of the battery is at.
They put it at TRL 4.
On the scale for tech readiness a TRL 4 is described below.
"4. Component and/or breadboard validation in laboratory environment
Basic technological components are integrated to establish that they will work together. This is relatively “low fidelity” compared with the eventual system. Examples include integration of “ad hoc” hardware in the laboratory.
System concepts that have been considered and results from testing laboratory-scale breadboard(s). References to who did this work and when. Provide an estimate of how breadboard hardware and test results differ from the expected system goals."
TRL level 8 which is actual system completed and qualified thru test and demonstration is pretty far away in my opinion. Most likely another very compelling reason that D'Couto cannot get funding despite his wildly optimistic claims.
Unless he gets some action going for his fuel cells, there is nothing "exciting" happening here for a while with the battery.
JMHO
Bill
No updates because nothing happened.
Lots of companies update development milestones. NEAH's partners do not because they never reach the milestone.
NEAH is running a race against time, they will need positive results from the Argonne development. That may be a year or more away.
BTW the DOE still does not show that project as active. D'Couto probably can't get them a battery to test.
JMHO
Bill
Name 1 large company in their business sector that said they would do business with NEAH integrating their tech. And see whether they have updated their own websites since said announcements over a year ago.
You state that these companies and NEAH are actively working on the integration of their technologies and its gonna take 3 to 5 years. Well NEAH has only 1 employee, D'Couto, it is not likely that any collaborative work is being done between NEAH and these other companies currently. NEAH has no money to support such things, they state it on their SEC filings.
D'Couto expressly ignored the "supposed" trail testing done with Liquid Image ( which Liquid image has never confirmed ). Supposed to build initial set of 7 to 10 then if good enough, 100 batteries. No indication at all of where this is, initial set or working on the 100.
I am back to wondering what the "real" truth vs D'Coutos truth is.
If D'Couto cannot get legitimate non dilutive funding, he is stuck with the same players who took this stock to .0002 this year. How much of the Argonne research will result in successful reproducible manufacturing techniques for his battery is anyone's guess at this point.
My belief is that he and his third party researchers in Beaverton may have accidentally produced a "home run" battery but are having problems replicating said results. Hence the DOE project to find the "secret sauce" which may or may not be successful.
JMHO
Bill
If you go ask INTEL what they got out of it and the answer is nothing useful, that will stand as money lost.
I am not saying NEAH will not make it if they can get their battery developed they stand a chance at success
They are not as far along as they insinuated. That is why I say the stock price is going back to where it was. There is no reason for the price to go up.
I am not calling it a scam, but being a candidate for further development is also not a guaranteed winner.
Jmho
Bill
True, but why buy now ? At tax loss selling time at the end of the year this will be back at .0002.
D'Couto has accomplished nothing since the DOE grant announcement.
This is a Government lab, do we really think they are going to accomplish much going into the holidays ? Too many key people will probably be on vacation.
Despite what D'Couto said, the DOE website is still not showing this as "Active" in the project status. Wishful thinking or D'Couto's version of the truth ?
D'Couto will not be able to get funding until after the DOE trial is complete and only if it is successful. It appears that no one trusts him and/or he does not have a commercially viable product yet.
Currently NEAH has no other employees, they are relying on others to do their development work this pretty much takes control out of their hands.
Did you notice , there was no mention of Liquid image in the update, nothing noting testing, accomplishment, any small sort of milestone achievement ? Another one goes quietly into the grave.
This is Typical NEAH.
JMHO
Bill
As to the inability to acquire funding, is the fact that Sierra Trading Corp, Summit Trading LTD, Union Capital LLC and Bard Associates own over 1.1 Billion shares of NEAH have something to do with it ?
A few months ago with the Market Cap at 600K this really was not much in dollar amounts but percentage wise this is significant, how much of NEAH is left to sell ?
Are these companies controlling D'Couto's actions in advancing this company ?
Inquiring minds would like to know.
JMHO
Bill
A year ago in the 10K Neah claimed some things such as 10X power densities, now they are at 5X. Hopefully the "unstarted" Project with Argonne will get to 10X and the "holy grail" of battery power.
From the 10K
"PowerChip
® Battery Markets
·
Grid-Storage
Utility companies are increasingly seeking to improve operational efficiency through the use of stand-by energy storage. As the use of solar energy and the rapid shift to distributed power systems increase, so does the
demand for longer lasting, higher energy dense and scalable storage solutions. Accordingly, the grid storage segment is expected to grow from 6.9% of the battery market to 37.6% by 2020. Presently, there are over 40
lithium-ion based grid storage projects under construction that would benefit significantly from
Neah’s ability to deliver with its PowerChip
®
Battery 10x the energy density over existing lithium-ion solutions at lower cost.
·
Electric Vehicles (EV)
With the impending mass adoption of EV and hybrid vehicles, the EV automotive segment is expected to grow from 18.3% of the battery market to 30% by 2020, reaching about USD15.7 billion. With its battery’s cost advantage
(USD150/Kwh vs. USD400/Kwh) and high power to weight ratio,
Neah is a potential leader in the rapidly expanding EV automotive battery market.
·
Consumer Electronics and Portable Devices
Recent consumer trends in everything from mobile phones to wearable technology to portable medical devices demonstrate the need for better, longer lasting and flexible power solutions, creating opportunities for both Neah’s BuzzBar® Suite and its current line of fuel cells suited for off-grid and remote energy generation with an estimated market of between USD6.0 billion and USD8.0 billion per year. Medical Devices
The PowerChip ® technology provides a superior form factor, enabling long lasting lithium batteries to be built as small as a dime. Neah’s lithium battery is thus not only viable in many applications in the medical sector
(ECG, flow sensor, etc.), it’s a safer and higher density alternative to the older lithium-ion batteries in current use. The wireless portable medical device market is expected to represent USD2.83 billion of the global battery
market by 2020. "
Okay Dr C. Where are we at in the grand scheme of things ?
Artilium africa does not seem to be moving forward.
Liquid Image " Who knows ? 6 months testing ? 9 months testing ? 1 Year of testing ?
S4W started looking at the power chip battery a year ago, what happened with that ?
Not throwing out any opinions , just asking questions that would hope would be answered. But probably will not be.
Bill
If you are asking about the DOE project with Argonne ,it does not look like it has started yet.
The projects that have been started are showing status as "Active". The NEAH project shows status listed as "12 Months " not as "Active".
Could possibly be waiting on Lab resources to free up. Who Knows.
Not much here except speculation until NEAH releases an update, which may or may not have pertinent info, we all know how D'Couto operates.
There has been no follow up on anything claimed in 2016 except for the DOE voucher.
JMHO
Bill
I agree, currently it is a repository for old PRs...that's about it.
Needs information on actual products . needs old information removed.
Bill
Yes, the link to the website is posted to the SBV site under projects. Yet if someone were to go look, there would be no information on the power chip battery.
Bill
Nothing done.
The project does not show active yet on the SBV site, many other granted at same time are already showing active on the project status.
It is a 12 month project, no news on that immediately , unless they do some initial analysis to baseline the battery before starting the deconstruct work.
I wouldn't expect news on that front soon, I would expect Liquid Image before that unless it goes south with them.
JMHO
Bill
This is not NEAH , the article mentions a collaboration shown below.
"French-US team-mostly involving researchers from the CNRS, Université de Lille, Université de Nantes and Argonne National Laboratory (US) as part of the Research Network on Electrochemical Energy Storage (RS2E)"
Looks like NEAH may be ahead of these guys, if D'Couto is to be believed.
The NEAH battery is not a Lithium Ion it is a Lithium Metal battery.
The NEAH project is a "deconstructive analysis " and on the DOE website does not show as active yet,it shows 12 month on status.
So a competing technology which in a way validates NEAH's idea.
JMHO
Bill
I agree that NEAH should update the shareholders and also update that "OUT OF DATE" website. All PRs direct potential shareholders to the website and the website has no information on the power chip battery and why it maybe better than the competition.
No marketing attempted by this company at all, no shareholder interface even when they claimed to have one.
The DOE analysis has not started, when you go the SBV website the NEAH entry does not have a link yet which describes the co and whether the project is "active".
Somebody was on twitter yesterday, I guess that tells us there is a faint heartbeat in there somewhere.
Still upbeat about the potential of the battery.
JMHO
Bill
Sorry, but S4W is not Liquid Image.
Liquid image is trialing the 100 units and if they are satisfied will purchase 200,000 according the the article tweeted by NEAH. This was in the June 10K so not a year.
S4W is a different company with a teaming agreement but we have never been updated on anything with them. HOD would indicate the fuel cell with Formira reformer, and we all know the fuel cells did not sell, most likely too expensive.
I'm sure NEAH has been working on this for more than a year, so insiders would have been privy when this was at .0002 and bought like crazy then. In fact someone was accumulating then..I took my queue from them.
JMHO
Bill
Not sure but it is not a harbinger of blockbuster news anytime soon.
We are in a wait and see mode, I would hate to try and time the market with this thing as it moves unexpectedly.
The next news we can surmise should be funding, which is badly needed.
Results of the Liquid image trial.
First perceptions or at least the beginning of the DOE/Argonne research project.
No rough estimates of when we may get results on these, and nothing else that D'Couto spoke of in his last update has come to pass even though he was projecting Q2 2016.
JMHO
Bill
Ha ha , you want Neah Power SyAtems to give you an update ?
That's just a poster who took an alias that sounds like the company we are invested in.
Anybody who expects to load up and then NEAH should give an update immediately so their stock can go up , is surely not experienced with this company.
While I believe their battery when proven is a huge step in the right direction, this co is not transparent at all with their shareholders.
They may or may not have news at this time, surely not DOE news as that probably has not even started knowing the slowness of government labs.
Most likley not Liquid Image as they would probably not base a 200,000 battery order on a 1 month test...more like 6 month at the very least.
Maybe funding...we will see.
JMHO
Bill
You have to consider that whoever made the 100 batteries for the Liquid Image trial, has seen the tech, the potential for the tech, and may be looking at getting in, or gathering either funding or partners.
This has to be something big, to move without news. The Blog may have generated some interest but this is larger than that.
JMHO
Bill
Yes the website needs an update or more likely a complete re-vamp.
D'Couto is one man with a laundry list of things to do. It may be that funding is hinging on successful testing of the battery by at least one customer. It is also possible that D'Couto may be waiting till he has a better position from which to bargain for the financing.
That is where Liquid Image comes in as a critical milestone, which may be what has to happen to set off the chain reaction for NEAH.
Timelines that are needed but we do not have are the completion of Liquid Image testing, DOE evaluation ( when does it start ? which drives the end of the project 1 year )
We seriously need an update from NEAH so that we are not completely in the dark. Looks like Signal Lake financing was a bust ( which may not be a bad thing ).
At this point all we can do is wait, and for NEAH longs that is something we are familiar with.
JMHO
Bill
You have to take it at what it is. Bull is being very general, however what he says is true. When the battery is proven to be what is claimed there will be companies very interested.
D'Couto despite failure in the fuel cell industry has been building his battery strategy for a while. He knew he would need industry experts in the battery world.
From December 2015. See below.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/neah-power-systems-names-robert-a-kruse-jr-to-strategic-advisory-board-560916851.html
The key points here being that Mr. Kruse is a battery and energy storage subject matter expert. Kruse is currently Chief Technology Officer for Qoros Automotive in Shanghai China. He is responsible for all Product Development and Advanced Technology. Previously, Kruse lead the operation development for Sakti3 Inc. as Chief Operating Officer and Board Member. Sakti3 is commercializing solid-state battery technology simultaneously targeted at electric vehicles and consumer electronics and was ultimately acquired by Dyson.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/qoros-shake-will-focus-electric-vehicles-and-autonomy
This is where I see the first applications in EVs happening, the business relationship is already existing, why wouldn't both companies collaborate if the opportunity is there ?
JMHO
Bill
The DEAD DOG is UP more than 500% from its low, when many others were calling the DEAD DOG dance back at .0002...
The market cap was in the $500,000.00 range now in the $2.5 million dollar range. If this is a dead dog dance I like it.
The DEAD DOG gets financing dance will be even more fun.
JMHO
Bill
Many companies have lost millions of dollars in the battery industry due to taking the route to build labs and complete all research using their facilities built with their borrowed dollars.
NEAH worked it smart using the Beaverton lab to build their demo batteries, and utilizing the SBV program to facilitate high level analysis on the battery, which they have been claiming for almost a year is already surpassing the status quo in batteries.
If they prove out a real working battery with Liquid Image and get a large order then they are off and running.
If they score some non-dilutive financing then they are off and running.
If the collaboration with Argonne finds sufficient efficiency then they are off and running.
Your assertion that a battery they build will be more expensive is hopeful opinion on your part that they fail. NEAH is asserting it will be lighter and cheaper. Only the future will tell.
JMHO
Bill
NEAH claims to be already testing a "REAL WORLD" application with Liquid Image.
Who in their right mind would go to commercial test using a battery with obvious inherent flaws. Forget I asked this.
There is a certain amount of scepticism meeting any high power density claims as these are commonplace in the battery industry usually followed up with technical difficulties and failure to commercialize.
New super battery claims pop up all the time and until those are proven with a "real life " battery that does what they say it does, is cheap to build, cheap to buy and lasts a long time, the industry in general will ignore these claims.
Lets hope we are in the 1%.
JMHO
Bill
Argonne solved this problem quite a while ago when working with CalBattery on a project similar to the SBV.
They developed a Silicon-Graphene anode which Argonne licensed to CalBattery way back when.
The good news is....
"Silicon-Graphene Anodes
Technology available for licensing:
Provides low-cost production process.
Advanced gas phase deposition process yields anodes with five times the specific energy of carbon-made anodes, a longer cycle life and improved capacity. "
The tech is available for licensing and when coupled with NEAHs 3D, lithium metal design could yield fantastic results.
JMHO
Bill
If this lab is working with NEAH, then maybe they have a chance to get the DEMOS built and have a step up towards a relationship with other companies that can quickly ramp up production.
http://www.oregonlive.com/beaverton/index.ssf/2013/06/polaris_battery_labs_offers_be.html
"An anonymous investor based in Asia, who Morris said "owns the No. 5 battery-tech company in the world," paid $850,000 of Polaris' startup costs."
Lot of Ifs but just maybe NEAH has a chance to partner with some companies that have definite go power.
This is just speculation.
JMHO
Bill
Apparently some people think this company will be putting out weekly significant news. It won't.
They also seem to be surprised that a sub-penny stock with 5.4 Billion authorized and over 1.5 billion float has somehow been involved in dilutive financing. It has.
I am not bashing, these are however facts, my belief that NEAH will overcome does not obliterate the past.
People who somehow believe that NEAH should go straight up, now that they have "bought in" are fooling themselves.
It won't be quick and it won't be painless, to portray it as such leads to un-realistic expectations.
If it goes down, I buy more. If it goes up, fine that's just advancement.
JMHO
Bill
There may or may not be news soon. This company is in either in a manufacture 100 test batteries, or they may already be in the hands of the prospective customer, very hard to know where it is.
Most likely nothing until the end of the test trial.
Do they have other business plans in the wings, maybe yes, maybe no.
If you truly believe what you stated, you really should dump your position ( if you really have one ) and then jump back in 6 months from now.
This stock will only really move when they have a contract in hand or DOE evals are publicized. DOE evals may take a year or maybe less if they have stellar results but you never know.
JMHO
Bill
YUP, you should probably stay away from this one if you want daily excitement,PRs and super clean financials.
JMHO
Bill
Looked a little deeper and you are correct, not a bad market to get into although the Lithium Ion are a little expensive.
"Thousands of cycles"
http://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/?gclid=CKWnrL6c784CFc5lfgodcZUB_A
JMHO
Bill
I agree and many teaming agreements he announced may have gone no-where or they may be waiting for some product development to catch up.
He may have seen the light and realized the fuel cells were not going to move forward at this time. Platinum catalysts are expensive. So with limited resources he appears to be moving forward with the battery we all said was fantasy a year ago.
The article below gives a good picture of the challenges and the high motivation to come out with a battery that can do more than existing and how difficult it is.
http://qz.com/699909/silicon-batteries-electric-car-future/
Since my last post was deleted here's a repost of the article in that post.
http://venturebeat.com/2016/03/02/watch-out-tesla-new-batteries-from-hi-tech-energy-agency-coming-fast/
As I said before these articles are not specific to NEAH however give an idea of the importance of battery density and the elusiveness of it.
He who makes that battery wins.
JMHO
Bill