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You're apparently missing my point.
I'm personally not interested in SUN beyond its emergence from chapter 11.
Whether it ever generates long term profit or not makes no difference to me.
I'm interested in a break even or profit on my eventual shares sellout which is based solely and entirely upon Sun's emergence with shares intact and pricing at or above $5/shr.
If Sun emerges with existing shares dissolved, I loose anyway.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
If they emerge with existing shares intact and at price, I win and thus far, I have seen nothing indicating directly that they intend to dissolve the existing shares.
Assets & debts aside, continued investment in operation of the company is not in my personal best interests.
Have you found anything to date, that states a dissolution of existing shares?
Dude.
What you apparently don't get is this.
There is no crystal ball.
Neither you nor I KNOW what Sun is going to do after the chapter 11.
That's why they call it "speculation".
I'm not saying they WILL emerge intact and go back into business with a share price of such and such.
I'm saying all evidence available at the moment, indicates that there is still a good probability that they will.
Chapter 11 of the Bankruptcy Code generally provides for reorganization, usually involving a corporation or partnership. A chapter 11 debtor usually proposes a plan of reorganization to keep its business alive and pay creditors over time or liquidate or raise assets for same. People in business or individuals can also seek relief in chapter 11.
You on the other hand, have stated unequivocally that they are going out of business based exclusively on the fact that they sold most (not all) of their assets.
What I'd like to know is how you determined that Sun is definitely going out of business?
Looks to me like they are raising enough capitol by selling assets and merging subco's to manage their debt and continue in business at a lesser scale.
Why am I wrong and you right?
That guy is a real prick alright
Excellent job on research BH.
Thank you for bringing that article to our attention. It's both interesting and useful.
Has anybody found a POR in the dockets?
SOLAR POWER MANUFACTURING IS DOOMED.
I have said before and I'll say again here.
In my opinion, solar power is still a doomed business.
Cost against savings are still too high and as such, savings returns are still too far out in the future to make it an appealing energy alternative.
Continued STOCK price success in these companies is due in large to the ability of the sales force to generate new business and not on the results of the product.
Sunedison like the others, is doomed to wallow in the $20 or below assuming good management and reliable products until one or more of these things change.
a) Mfgrg costs decreases 50% or more.
b) General pricing decreases 50% or more.
c) Oil cost makes a 300% plus increase.
d) All fossil fuels are banned.
Unless you get one or more of those situations, Solar is still glitter on a volkswagon.
"There Is a Strong Likelihood That The Debtors Will Successfully Reorganize" from paragraph 21
(file:///C:/Users/Mike/Downloads/M126116969806-rep-2311070734%20(2).pdf)
Is merely defendants attys motion for temporary relief against lawsuits imposed upon the Directors and Officers of the company. You would expect the atty to say that.
It has not been approved by a judge.
Realistically speaking What I read in this is that they were stupid. Not that they didn't know how to make what they made but that they were stupid.
Based on previous success (Dec 21, 2007 $91.07/shr), I expect that assuming the company does reorganize and assuming the stock is not dissolved in the process, Sunedison will emerge with obviously less assets (due to global debt settlements) but key management intact leading one to assume that if they start all over again, some degree of success is to be expected.
It is also my opinion that expecting the D&O to turn over a new leaf may be foolish but some degree of success is still to be expected before potential notorious behavior starts again and as such, stock pricing in the $10 to $20/shr area is not out of the question.
Based on no current POR stip, stating an intent to dissolve existing shares, the current odds are definitely better for a recovery to $10/shr from $0.15/shr than buying a lottery ticket as some who post on here might lead you to believe.
Good luck.
CONTINUED...
Forgive me if I'm seeming dense here but...
"If you can buy 10,000 shares of a company for $0.10 (or less) a share, that once sold for $100/shr and is in the process of reorganizing, and doesn't flat out tell you it's planning to dissolve its current stock, why not invest in it? "
Now you are thinking
Anything similar to that SEC's 10% of BKs
If I were a broker, and I knew that you had $50,000 tied up in SUNE because I advised you to buy it then and the stock dropped to $0.1000 (or lower) and I had no POR stating an actual dissolution and reissue of SUNE stock (this is really important because there isn't at the moment), I'd call you and advise you to "GAMBLE" (note the stress here) $1,000 more on the stock with an understood $500 probable additional loss.
Here's the reason.
One of two things will happen with SUNE:
1) Assuming the company does emerge, existing stock intact (because it was protected in the POR), at $10/shr you benefit immensely with no down side at all because you applied "stock cost averaging" (see previous post math).
2) Assuming the company files a POR that states a dissolution of existing stock, the stock will still trade on the market for a while afterwards. I'd call you and tell you we didn't win this one, sell out now at $0.05 (or what ever) and walk away with a little more loss than you knew you had before the buy.
I read that commons surviving.
"Going Back-To-Under-10"
All the math you need to know
Somebody posted, "Musk is a Bullshitter".
Tesla Motors Inc. was dealt a blow earlier this week as Consumer Reports magazine called the Model X, its much-awaited and much-feted SUV, a “flawed” vehicle.
This is my point.
In my opinion if Musk joins failing TESLA with barely holding its own SCTY it would be like dropping a rotting potato into a bushel of 1yr old, still good potatoes.
The still good ones that might be used are gonna rot much faster.
Buying PUTS on all of Musk's businesses might not be a bad idea?
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/teslas-model-x-is-fast-and-flawed-consumer-reports-says-2016-11-25
Tesla Motors Inc. was dealt a blow earlier this week as Consumer Reports magazine called the Model X, its much-awaited and much-feted SUV, a “flawed” vehicle.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/teslas-model-x-is-fast-and-flawed-consumer-reports-says-2016-11-25
Re: CHART
LAUGHING...
Outta tell you something huh.
"ASTI IS WAY UNDERVALUED" Really?
That's up for argument. Last I checked the PE was -0.01
In my book, all equipment value means is less debt after its sale pursuant to the chapter 11 bankruptcy.
Solar power may admittedly be the next and greatest answer to our energy needs but the trouble with all these companies is the same.
It's so freaking expensive to build the equipment (or buy) that the returns are 15 to 20 years down the road.
All you have to do to understand that is get an estimate FROM ANYONE, for a solar system installed in your home, then do the math on cost and savings.
When everyone is aware of that, as is currently happening, these companies will lose sales and subsequently, stock value.
In my admitted, limited knowledge, my opinion, for what it's worth, is that solar power companies are really only good for shorting, buying PUTS or investing while they're low and selling just as soon as they jump a little.
Long isn't going to pay back till technology improves or the Feds abolish oil.
Neither is going to happen soon.
Laughing!!!...
Th "SolarCity/TESLA MERGE" post should actually be in the Solarcity or TESLA thread and not here.
For what it's worth, If you want to take the time to visit the solarcity thread, you can find my post regarding the possible "merge" there under the header "LAUGHING".
Ascent Solar may actually be a decent stock to trade in. I'm personally gonna look further into it.
LAUGHING!!!...
TESLA/SolarCity???
I think not a good mix.
Musk has been talking about Solar City and Tesla merging for some time.
What's odd here is that Tesla should be shorted in preparation for a possible bankruptcy and that makes me wonder why Musk would want to infect SCTY with it.
On the other hand, unless TESLA merges with SCTY he will have to bankrupt TESLA and that's probably, exactly why Musk is merging the two companies.
Tesla on its own is doomed to fail and if Musk merges the two companies, that will hurt SCTY and the currently declining stock value may decline even further.
Take care if you're thinking long on this.
Common Share Dissolution.
I'm not holding a major amount of shares in Sun and I'm just an investor in speculative chapter 11 companies so what I have to offer may or may not be of value.
One of the determining factors of stock in any chapter 11 company is the dissolving of existing shares in preparation for either bankruptcy or reorganization.
If reorganization is the course though, there would be either a dissolution and reissue under another name (wiping out all value in existing shares) or a retention of existing shares with possibly a dilution later and issue of additional shares to raise needed revenue.
If bankruptcy is the course, there would be no reissue.
In my experience (limited as it may be), a plan of reorganization filed with the chapter 11 petition generally spells out any changes in the status of existing shares.
I have been through all the headers of all 83 documents in the docket system and I can find no such motion or order granting the motion to dissolve existing shares.
There are however, numerous motions and court grants allowing the "Private" sale and transfer of SUNE shares (in large quantities) from Sunedison to various other businesses.
In March 2016, SunEdison Holdings Corporation (the “Seller”) began a
marketing process to solicit interest in the Shares Six qualified bidders in the solar power industry were contacted based on, among other things, their known appetite for UK assets, funds availability, and ability to transact on a short timeframe.
This may be an action by Sun to raise needed capitol for paying down its debts utilizing existing shares that it holds.
In that case, the existing shares may emerge unscathed when Sun closes its chapter 11 proceedings.
Chapter 11 investments are always a crap shoot though because the courts can order things without the companies agreement. Even the SEC says that while all chapter 11 bankruptcies don't end in a dissolution of existing shares, only 1 in 10 statistically don't.
Invest accordingly.
Please don't send me a note complaining about the length of this post.
It conveys useful information for investors unlike the majority of others that are worthless.
What will happen...
Again...
I'm not an expert, I'm an investor and in my admittedly limited experience and knowledge about both law and stocks, according to the current docket proceedings, right now and for For the remainder of the Chapter 11 proceedings, you own shares valued at 6 cents but after the Chapter 11 closes Key will issue new shares at a new price and the companies stock listed as KEGXC will be dissolved by the SEC and your stock will just disappear.
If you hold the actual certificates, they will be worthless except as memorabilia.
If you want to know if you have that special consideration stock your best bet is to contact the firm that you bought the stock through and ask.
I'm sorry for those of you who bought at greater pricing but again, unless you got that election form selling while you have something is always better than not selling and winding up with nothing.
Key is no longer a buy.
I'm always interested in controvert opinions or new information.
It's not rambling. It's clear and it's in print, in the dockets.
Case 16-12306 Doc 17 Filed 10/24/16
DEBTORS’ MOTION FOR ENTRY OF AN ORDER...
You are receiving this election form (this “Equity Holder Election Form”) because, according to the books and records of your Nominee (defined below), you may be a Holder of Allowed Existing Key Common Stock in Class 8 under the Plan. This Equity Holder Election Form is being provided to the banks, brokerage firms, and other nominees (each, a “Nominee”) to forward to beneficial owners for whom they hold Existing Key Common Stock.
Under the terms of the Plan, Holders of Class 8 Existing Key Common Stock are conclusively deemed to have rejected the Plan pursuant to section 1126(g) of the Bankruptcy Code. Therefore, Holders of Class 8 Existing Key Common Stock were not entitled to vote to accept or reject the Plan.
If you own common stock, class 8 in Key Energy and you were not given the election form (special consideration), your stock is worthless.
CORRECTION TO PREVIOUS POST
UNLESS....
You were issued a class 8 stock (which is the most common classification of public stock) and it was deemed by the company as "allowed existing" or "special treatment" you would have received an elections form stating...
SHOULD READ
UNLESS....
You were issued a class 8 stock (which is the most common classification of public stock) and it was deemed by the company as "allowed existing" or "special treatment" you are now holding worthless stock. Otherwise you would have received an elections form stating...
All this appears to be moot.
On 2016-10-24 Key filed motion...
ELECTION FORM
FOR HOLDERS OF ALLOWED EXISTING KEY COMMON STOCK
Which reads...
You are receiving this election form (this “Equity Holder Election Form”) because, according to the Debtors’ books and records, you may be a Holder of Allowed Existing Key Common Stock in Class 8 under the Plan. Under the terms of the Plan, Holders of Class 8 Existing Key Common Stock are conclusively deemed to have rejected the Plan pursuant to section 1126(g) of the Bankruptcy Code. Therefore, Holders of Class 8 Existing Key Common Stock were not entitled to vote to accept or reject the Plan.
Key issued 10 classes of common stock.
Most (1-7 and 10) were held intact.
Classes 8 and 9 on the other hand, were determined null and void.
UNLESS....
You were issued a class 8 stock (which is the most common classification of public stock) and it was deemed by the company as "allowed existing" or "special treatment" you would have received an elections form stating...
You are receiving this election form (this “Equity Holder Election Form”) because, according to the books and records of your Nominee (defined below), you may be a Holder of Allowed Existing Key Common Stock in Class 8 under the Plan.
On the Effective Date, all Existing Key Common Stock shall be discharged, cancelled, released and extinguished and shall be of no further force or effect, whether surrendered for cancellation or otherwise. On or as soon as practicable after the Effective Date, each Holder of Allowed Existing Key Common Stock shall receive, in exchange for the surrender or cancellation of such Holder’s Allowed Existing Key Common Stock and for (1) the releases given by such Holder...
...such Holder’s Equity Holder Plan Securities (rounded up or down to the nearest whole share and whole New Warrant), or
In other words, unless you received that "ELECTION FORM" your stock is now or will soon be worthless.
Sorry guys.
"Noranda is no longer the owner": I disagree...
In my "unprofessional" opinion that's all irrelevant.
I can find no mention in the pleadings going back to 4/9/2016 regarding dissolving existing shares in the company, an obvious indicator of continuance intent and in addition, is still reporting to the SEC on its shares status, nor has Noranda officially filed for dissolution.
To all outward appearances (I haven't actually been there), Noranda is still conducting business albeit at a much lesser profit than before.
Norand has sold off a great deal of its then, profitable money making businesses in order to pay down its unmanageable debt making it currently more streamlined than it was.
In addition,
The Chapter 11 case was closed by request and granted by the courts and the company is now poised to start operating in full again if it so desires.
Granted, the company is down several key manufacturing plants and businesses sold off to repay debts but the company and management are still APPARENTLY intact.
It is opin'd that Noranda is currently doing financial "housekeeping" by ridding the docket of all extraneous pleadings and motions before announcing the emersion from the court reorganization and re-start business again in whatever capacity they ultimately have in mind.
I welcome any additional opinions or refutes.
So the question then is:
If you currently have 1000 shares in the company, are you gonna get 1000 shares of the new stack or are you gonna get
(1000shrs) * ($0.05 current value) = $50 worth of the new stock?
Not necessarily.
The SEC prints a doc regarding chap11 companies that states amount other things that 1 in 10 companies that enter chap11 come out with shares intact.
The company must file with the court for permission to dissolve shares then file with the SEC to make it happen.
I haven't seen any of those filings yet and as of last Wednesday, Noranda was granted an order releasing them from the chap11.
If I'm not off base here, the shares survived the chap11 and should start generating interest as soon as Noranda issues a statement.
On the other hand. I could be way off and Noranda may have filed for dilution already and issue new stock next week.
It's always a crap shoot.