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Lol - lawsuits, crypto, journal, conference, multiple PR’s, advent operationally ready, errrr I could think of more……either didn’t happen, has not yet happened or will never happen…..it’s also been the last yard for the last 24 months and the last chance to do a deal with warrants before TLD at least 24 months ago and maybe five more last chance opportunities - it’s an impressive set of things over the last four years….
I’m convinced of it….they need to put the science beyond question and it’s a smart play. They need to raise cash and so plan a financing on the back of any uplift in the SP. They want a peer reviewed article from a top journal so that the momentum will be strong and sustained enough to withstand and overwhelm any opportunity to attack the stock. I think the words Les used were along the lines of “then they will go and play somewhere else”
So my conversation with Les is summarised above…..
About 6 weeks ago
Nice story…..I won’t be suing the company but in the past plenty have and fair or foul we were ejected from the Nasdaq and Linda lost control of the very thing she built up - Cognate.
Les told me it’s pretty much guaranteed they will be attacked post TLD and the science being in a top journal is likely to put the science doubters to bed….so the takeaway for me was that they will go after Mgt. so any skeletons in the closet need sorting out before TLD….I’m just pointing out that if what Les says actually happens ( and I’m skeptical of this apparent enormous short position ) then I’m figuring it will likely centre around Advent and it’s relationship with Linda/NWBO because even long shareholders like me and I’m excited about the science can see that on the surface this don’t look good especially when it happened once already with Cognate. I appreciate you don’t agree so no need to debate further.
Well I can agree with that but to date Anders has spoken facts….in my opinion so you disagree and that’s fine but questioning his motives is off topic and unhelpful
Don’t worry about facts….it’s irrelevant lol
Fully agree
Lots of good points and questions raised and I agree Sawston cannot be providing anything commercial scale wise in terms of income but it’s about to change. They do seem to be generating reasonable cash flows even at 2019….
I’ve always been prepared to accept nothing untoward has been going on much as you believe but you can easily see things with good and less good outcomes. The valuation of Cognate is a key point where I realised the potential perhaps more than I appreciated previously. The structure and lack of transparency does not mean anything bad is happening but it could just as easily change at anytime.
I have spoken in the past with both Les and Dave and literally got no assurances other than “move on” and “Linda is a highly ethical individual” I’m open to accepting this but an answer to my questions or indeed other similar questions properly announced would kill off dead any potential ambiguity or attempts to attack the Mgt post TLD
It’s not difficult and only stands to benefit them greatly as a Mgt team.
A list of perfectly reasonable questions for Mgt to answer
1) Exactly how much has Advent invoiced NWBO since 2016 broken down by year and split between project Mgt and making vaccines for self paying customers?
2) How much rent has Advent paid to NWBO since 2016?
3) The equipment provided by NWBO for the benefit of Advent has come to exactly how much in total to date?
4) The building work and upgrades to the building such as air and gas installation have been paid for by NWBO. Can you provide the total cost spent on the building and upgrades ?
5) Are NWBO paying the running costs of Advent (directly or indirectly) such as salaries, rent free periods, use of equipment until Advent can operate commercially?
6) Is it the short to medium term goal to transfer the assets of Sawston to Advent for a commercial price once approval to operate in Sawston has been given ?
Kab it’s either cash in the bank from trade debtors or outstanding invoices owed to Advent also in trade debt..without a license to operate except out of a small lab in a room in a hospital to make DCVax-L and only DCVax-L where else could this trade debt come from?
Trade debt = advent invoices for work undertaken. It’s not loans or anything else….it’s all in trade debtors
Look let’s assume you are right for a moment. I cannot get the level of detail from NWBO’s account as I can from looking at Advents….I’m sure they reconcile (it’s basic accounting) but the level of detail is clearer where the revenue comes from as it’s filed in a set format used in the UK…..keep knocking me down but I’m not making any of this up….it’s fact and publicly filed.
With respect go to google and type in
‘Advent Bioservices ltd accounts companies house”
All ltd companies are required by law to file public accounts but small companies in the Uk can file abbreviated accounts which basically means a balance sheet but it still gives a reasonable breakdown of equity and revenue streams, tax owed and number of employees etc
It’s obvious to any objective thinking individual that the future value of Advent could be potentially similar in terms of multiple paid as a percentage of revenue as Cognate. But no doubt some will deny this even when future account filings will prove this very point as previous account filings of Cognate uk/Advent showing how lucrative this business is but then gets completely ignored. Cognate inc does not need to file anything as is their right as a private business in the US so we couldn’t see but the UK division of cognate did (name change to Advent) and ownership transferred from Cognate to Toucan for what looks like nil value it’s not disclosed anyway…..since that moment revenues starting coming into Advent that may well previously have gone directly to Cognate inc I don’t know but within a year Advent had transformed from a dormant company to one making a small loss to one making a very healthy profit when you consider the number of employees —
2014 - Cognate Bioservices Ltd - Dormant - equity £1.00
2015 - Cognate Bio - (£443k) loss - equity £1.00
2016 - Advent - £1m improvements in performance balance sheet £505k - equity £1.00 with 3 employees
2017 - Advent - balance sheet £719k - equity £1.00 with 5 employees
2018 - Advent - balance sheet £3.61m equity £1.00 with 6 employees
2019 - Advent - balance sheet £4.85m equity £1.00 with 11 employees
This is without a license to operate at Sawston so the only income will be that of fees to project manage the build up - 15% which to be fair is not an unreasonable charge and any income generated from using the single room facility at a London hospital (max 5 patients per month capacity)
With a license to make vaccines at Sawston we should see volumes increase to around 50 per month initially and continue to fit out further investment in Sawston for which a 15% project mgt fee will likely be invoiced.
Would it not be more equitable for Linda to sell 10m shares in NWBO and disclose this money was all going to fund Advent so no shareholder monies have been used to fund Advents ramp up. Doing it the way she is presently she keeps all her equity in NWBO and awards herself and Mgt additional equity as part of their remuneration and Incentive plan while everyone else has funded a private company. She would still own an enormous amount of NWBO and will have funded Advent from her own pocket.
Remember a lot of loyal long term shareholders have to sell shares to raise cash to pay for expiring warrants….no doubt some of the cash may well have been used to pay for the ramp up of Sawston. The principle being we cannot always have our cake and eat it.
Well the revenue Advent received or was owed by trade debtors was £5.47m for the last filed accounts and not £2.4m as you have stated and it either came from charging 15% project mgt fee of the income from self paying customers or both. How much revenue from self paying customers is filed in NWBO’s accounts?
Mike Scott joined Advent in April 2019
The first filed accounts for Advent (2016) showed 3 employees generating £1.4m of revenue
2014 accounts for Cognate Bioservices show it has a dormant company with no trading.
2015 accounts for Cognate Bioservices showed it had creditors of £461k and assets of £13k so a. Negative balance sheet of £443k
2016 accounts Advent Bioservices show a positive balance sheet of £505k with trade debtors and cash in the bank as being £1482k and they employed just 3 members of staff
Only because of the result of delayed TLD and rulings around issuing of shares
Your response did make me chuckle…..you do realise that those clean room payments were negotiated between Linda as CEO of NWBO and Linda as the owner of Cognate. The delayed timing of TLD screwed it up and initially when there was no more cash left to realistically pay for an additional four years of trial maturity they were paid in NWBO shares. Had TLD not been delayed then the cash would have continued until it was replaced by fees earned from making commercial scale vaccines.
Zero - no mention in accounts
Zero - no mention in accounts
No idea nothing in the accounts
Good luck Vator…wish you well
Yes but as you increase the equity the amount goes up…..unless you don’t increase the equity
It is £1.00 that is it …..and Toucan is owned by the CEO of NWBO
One share holder and one share
Toucan and the share capital is £1.00
We were paying Cognate $500k per month to scale up. No doubt that money was used to hire good people and purchase some or all of the equipment to figure that issue out as you say. Different way of doing it than with Advent but with the same outcome.
NWBO do need to be able to demonstrate commercial scale to the RA’s that much I agree. I just don’t see why Linda needs to own that operation personally when all NWBO shareholders funded it.
One of several differences between Cognate and Advent is timing…put simply both were/are funded by NWBO because it’s important to have commercial scale as you announce clinical results, being a personalised therapy. Unfortunately when the trial got pushed back four years NWBO had Cognate nicely scaled up with no income in place as NWBO remained blinded…..we ramped up too early and in the end we lost it and all the value we invested….or should I say Linda lost it (as we never owned it) because there was no income to pay the wages. This time the same thing is going on but we should get the results at least this year……and much like with Cognate it’s looks to me as if she intends to keep Advent for herself and can keep it going because she will receive income from making vaccines….either self paying on a larger scale but hopefully within a year approval in the UK. NWBO stock will rise but equally the value of Advent will rise as commercial scale revenue streams start hitting the bank account.
So I asked you earlier to explain the cash balance of Advent because it’s clearer than the NWBO filings….nothing has changed….where did the cash come from that’s on Advents balance sheet- it’s 50% trade debtors and cash in hand.
You cannot conclude anything without those answers…..because the only cash going to Advent has either come from NWBO or anybody self paying $200k in full for treatment.
Sorry, what’s your point here?
I don’t want a bum fight so I will leave it here but from 2019 until now who do you think has funded the wage bill of advent? Where is the cash coming from?
I hope this works out well for all long shareholders.
You cannot get the clarity you need from NWBO’s numbers but it’s known that all the equipment is paid for and owned by NWBO….so the number is what it is….you can get much more interesting information by looking at Advents numbers….which excludes equipment purchases but should include the 15% fee. You get the number of employees - 11 and the amount invested as share capital by the owner. Can you access companies house in the UK?
Ok genuine question…..where is the cash coming from that in 2019 was on deposit in Advents bank or trade debtor list? They have no license to produce anything and the only thing mentioned by NWBO is a 15% project mgt fee to oversee the build up of NWBO’s Sawston building. Not unreasonable in my opinion…..but where does the cash come from then?
Toucan invested $1.40 as share capital.
We only have the facts for 2019. We will get 2020’s in Dec this year.
We know all the equipment is owned by NWBO as is the lease.
I genuinely may have missed something so if you can offer something meaningful other than I’m a conspiracy theorist or a closet short or everything is okay because I know it is then I’m all ears.
Well please feel free to provide some of your own evidence rather than continually shooting down mine….Anders and myself plus a small number of others are literally the only ones attempting to work things out. I’ve never stated that Advent has production contracts elsewhere….they don’t as yet have a license to do anything other than via the small facility in a london hospital. It looks like they are gearing up for that but I doubt they have any revenues at this point without a license.
So you understanding what I’m claiming is off kilt… it’s a mystery to me what you think I’m claiming that isn’t in black and white…you have to work it out which is what I’m trying to do. The facts are as both Anders and myself have stated. I don’t know the inner contractual arrangements but from an outsiders perspective it looks like NWBO shareholders funded a scale up of Advent including all the equipment (agreed owned by NWBO) and wages of all the staff with a company of which we have no ownership. A project mgt fee of 15% is not unreasonable in fact….but we had 11 staff in 2019 and that strictly for the purposes of project Mgt is unreasonable….as is the cash balance at the time for just project mgt….it equates to almost $500k per employee. It’s either a relationship that is as I and a small number of others claim just by looking at revenue numbers from Advent and the license to operate or it’s a perfectly excellent relationship that has not materially caused now or in the future any losses to the shareholders of NWBO. The company has created a muddy pond when it comes to this and I’ve attempted to seek genuine assurances in the interests of shareholders. I cannot find any evidence that demonstrates beyond doubt to the contrary. All I’ve heard on this board so far is a claim that the certification is in NWBO’s name which it isn’t or it’s all okay nothing to be seen here or I’ve been attacked…..it’s not want anyone wants to hear I get that…me included but everything we do know supports this theory and the company refuses to provide any clarity around this. My only hope is that they go much further than announcing the license for Advent and completely put beyond any doubt that NWBO shareholders funds have paid for a private company owned by our CEO to scale up and win contracts with either NWBO or others……but don’t hold your breath.
Les revealed that to me when I was questioning Advents finances but that is all he said….no explanation was given on the trade debt figure between NWBO and Advent or info regarding transfer pricing or who was funding the 11 staff at 2019 - which is a lot for simply project Mgt of a ramp up.
I think that amount (15%) is similar to what Les told me in a call 18 months or so but I couldn’t reconcile the cash balance of Advent as per 2019 accounts - it was more or less £4.8m in total. On that basis NWBO shareholders have invested something like £30-40m fitting out the building. I cannot tell if this is in addition or including the cash receipt on sale of the site of around £50m…..but I do know several finance raises post the sale of Sawston were specifically to scale up Sawston.
It could be argued we should pay balance sheet value with no goodwill…..because we already paid once. Some call it a conspiracy theory but so far we have been proved to be factual and the penny will eventually drop when further evidence emerges with Advents filings
Good luck with that line of thinking…..we are finished
Nwbo taking over Advent is nonsensical - please enlighten me!
Do you read before rushing to type a stupid response or are you just pulling the toilet chain for fun? Read my post again
All correct - I agree but the transfer price paid will no doubt allow for the ramp up of the facilities and equipment to be repaid back to NWBO over a period of time. The ownership will transfer across over time….We will learn just how profitable this will be when Advent file their accounts post certification (could be up to 18 months later max)
If NWBO took over Advent for a small price then all that value is locked in for NWBO shareholders….making us an actual biotech company.
That would be a brilliant outcome for NWBO shareholders - I really hope that happens