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SREH - The ride back up is going to be fast, don't miss out!
SREH is going to explode tomorrow, and it's a long way back up! Get in now before you miss out!
SREH - Huge turnaround coming tomorrow, get in before it's too late!!
Absolutely, if we close green, it'll be flying tomorrow with people trying to get in for the ride back up.
Absolutely agree, the day that the first unit comes off the production line is going to be awesome. With the contracts already set up, there is HUGE upside! $1.00+ by EOY 2011.
I say we break through .04 as soon as they announce a complete working unit.
SREH - watch it fly on the bounce this week.
SREH is going to bounce back hard this week, get in before it's too late!!
I actually think that this is a great buying point. It's possible it might hit .001, but the reversal is definitely coming soon.
As soon as this thing gets a level day, it's going to start springing upward.
Why wouldn't someone want in at 1/10th the price from a month ago. You can't tell me there's that much dilution.
SREH - about to make a huuuge bounce!
I just got in at .0015....seems like a good opportunity for a huge bounce.
SREH - huge bottom bounce coming!! Possible 5+ bagger!
SREH - huge bottom bounce coming!! Oversold like crazy, an easy 4-5 bagger!
SREH is getting ready for a huge bottom bounce!! Oversold like crazy, an easy 4-5 bagger!
Very interested to see how this plays out over the next couple days!!
Not sure if I'm going to try to buy any before D-Day, but good luck to all of those that are in it. It'll be a great buy if things work out.
Never said that ohm's law didn't apply. You asked if the formula still applied for DC, and the formula is Ohm's Law.
So why don't we use 12 volt car batteries and transformers to power everything in the house? Sounds like a transformer can supply 3000 volts instead of the measly 110 volt outlet can? Come on, your the engineer. Check your math again. I think you're a little confused. It's still 110V, 30 amp...but the transformer harnesses the energy when the microwave is not running to produce 3000V when it is in use. No energy is created here, it's just harnessing enough prior to use from my understanding.
I'm 99.9% sure that Ohm's law applies to both AC and DC, but I'll double check.
Thanks, it gets me a lot more excited too.
I had the same concern as Beer originally, but knew that microwaves had more output than that, just didn't know how they worked. Glad I found something that explains how they do this and can put it into numbers to show the possibilities.
This should also relieve some of Plmr's concerns about it being only applicable as a point of use unit, as the numbers show that the capability is there for whole house units.
Hi Beer, I think I found something that can finally calm your worries over microwaves producing enough energy at low voltage/amps to heat the water at the necessary flow rates:
http://www.allsands.com/science/microwaveovenw_bae_gn.htm
Specifically, here are the excerpts that explain it:
By adjusting the on-off ratio of this activation signal, the control system can govern the application of voltage to the high-voltage transformer, thereby controlling the on-off ratio of the magnetron tube and therefore the output power of the microwave oven. Some models use a fast-acting power-control relay in the high-voltage circuit to control the output power.
In the high-voltage section, the high-voltage transformer along with a special diode and capacitor arrangement serve to increase the typical household voltage, of about 115 volts, to the shockingly high amount of approximately 3,000 volts! While this powerful voltage would be quite unhealthy-even deadly-for humans, it is just what the magnetron tube needs to do its job-that is, to dynamically convert the high voltage in to undulating waves of electromagnetic cooking energy.
I admit that I had the same concern as you did originally when quickly running the numbers using 115V x 30 amp. Hopefully this helped explain how it is possible for microwaves to achieve this.
Using 3000V gives over 90kW of power...enough to heat 8 gpm water 80 degF!
kW is power [kJ/sec]. So it takes 21 kJ per second of energy (kilojoules).
So yes, you're correct, it takes 21 kW of power to heat water flowing at 4 gallons/minute.
You need a little more than the voltage to calculate that Beer. From previous reading (don't remember where) the water inside the unit flows in an S configuration, passing by the microwaves several times.
But in terms of heating 4 gpm water you need:
Q=pmCpt = (4.184 kJ/kgK)*(15.11kg/min)*(20K)*(1min/60sec) = 21 kW
4.184 is the heat capacity of water
15.11 kg/min is 4 gpm in terms of mass
20K is a 20 Kelvin temperature change (~40degF, a little more than needed in most situations)
If I knew the actual operation of the unit, I'd do that part of the calculation too.
I just thought that 7 was a little overkill. Toilets shouldn't use heated water anyway. Faucets have to be 1 gpm or less. So, 2 gpm is too low, but 4-5 gpm should be sufficient for most applications.
If it's not run on 110 then I don't see it being much more efficient vs other electric water heaters. - The voltage required has nothing to do with the efficiency of the unit. Efficiency is a measure of how much of the energy put in gets transferred to whatever it's getting used for.
$500M in contracts doesn't seem like a waste of time.
You've mentioned that 7+ gpm is needed. Do any of the appliances in the house use more than 2 gpm? There may be some older houses that still have showers or other appliances that require higher flow rates, but I think most appliances are under 2-2.5 gpm. So the only way 7 gpm would be needed is if 2 people were taking a showers and the washing machine was filling all at once. Seems a little overkill.
I think a company would need to have contracts in place before lining up parts providers, testing, and production for several reasons. First off, they need to specify to the parts providers what their expected need will be to ensure that the provider can meet demand and/or so that the provider knows if producing the component is worthwhile to them. They also need to ensure that there will be a market to help get any needed funding and to make sure that all of their efforts are not going to be a waste.
I don't think they've specified, but as long as their units meet the expectations of the contracts already in place, it'll be a huge success for the company and investors.
Exactly, that's all I'm saying. If 1/2 in isn't acceptable, adapting the unit to whatever size necessary will have no effect on the unit's operation. I think we're in agreement now.
Go back and read what I said again. I said it will take very little water to cool the magnetrons(remove the heat generated by the use of the magnetron). I implied that the heat produced by the use of the magnetron can be quickly removed with very little water. Just like a microwave, a small fan keeps them cool. Very little water will be needed to keep the WDRP magnetron cool. So thinking this heat generated will have any significance on the overall ouput temperature of the water is incorrect IMO. - Actually, the heat loss to the magnetrons (almost 30%, and almost all of the overall heat loss) is what kept a microwave water heater from being viable previously. Running the water by it will absorb almost all of this 30% heat loss, bringing the overall efficiency of the unit to the high 90's (IMO).
I'm in no way trying to put down your field of work, I just think that you're putting a "this is the way and that's all there is to it" point of view to things. Here's another article about pipe sizes.
http://www.askthebuilder.com/NH007_-_Properly_Size_Your_Water_Lines.shtml
Main line should be at least 3/4" but there can be different sizes branching off. No matter what, PIPE SIZE DOES NOT MATTER TO THE UNIT'S OPERATION.
I think you mean't 3/4", either way, pipe size is a non-factor in the unit's operation. It's like arguing about the color of the unit, doesn't matter.
Off on what? Are you saying even the water will not be able to cool the magnetrons? - You implied that the water wouldn't be able to extract heat from the magnetrons. The water will extract heat at the point where the magnetron is hotter than the water. So, in turn, the water "cools" the magnetrons by not allowing them to heat higher than the water temperature.
OK, like I said the pipe size is a non-factor in the unit's operation, but here's something from a 30 second google search:
PEX pipe is approved for potable hot- and cold-water plumbing systems and hot-water (hydronic) heating systems in all model plumbing and mechanical codes across the U.S. and Canada. PEX piping systems are durable, provide security for safe drinking water, and use reliable connections and fittings. There are currently about ten domestic producers of quality PEX piping.
Brass fittings and couplings and polyethylene tees and elbows are available. Fittings are available in both mechanical compression and crimping styles, depending on application and manufacturer. In addition to domestic water supply systems, PEX tubing can be used for floor or wall radiant heating, and snow and ice melting systems in sidewalks and driveways.
PEX tubing is light weight, and it can withstand operating temperatures of up to 200° F (93° C). It is flexible and can easily be bent around corners and obstacles, and through floor systems. Sizes of PEX tubing range from 3/8-inch to over 2 inches.
It wasn't a dud 5 years ago when it came out, it was just a patented idea...and the patent holder didn't have the means of producing working units at that point.
Running on 110 volts would be a plus, but not a necessity. What do the electric tankless heaters run on? If they run on 110 volt, there is no reason why the microwave water heater shouldn't be able to.
You will lose volume and pressure at points much less than a thousand feet. There is a reason why we have different sizes of piping, 1/2", 3/4", and 1" for most homes. There is a method to installing the proper sized piping for a plumbing system, there is a code, and there is a wrong way and a right way to install the piping. LOL...Water is an incompressible fluid, so you can't lose volume. You will lose small amounts of pressure, but I don't want to do the calculation because it's definitely a non factor in this case without even the need to do a calculation. The pipe size should be a non-factor in the unit's actual operation, so they should be able to use whatever size is needed. I highly doubt that different sizes are "illegal" like you had said earlier, probably just much less common.
Good thoughts BeerisGood, but a little off on a couple things:
And very little water can absorb it. The heating of the water will come from the operation of the magnetron itself, not from the result of the operating. - The water running by the magnetrons will be able to absorb most of the heat as it flows past the magnetrons starting from the instant where the magnetron is at a higher temperature than the water. Water and most metals conduct heat very well, and the water will absorb almost all the heat from the point that the magnetron temperature exceeds that of the water. The only "lost" heat will be the amount to get the magnetron to the temperature of the water (which will eventual get transferred to the static water when it is not running)
Codes may change but friction loss, volume and flow for a 1/2" pipe will not. It's just a water heater correct? Or does it have a pump also? - The water in water lines are already under pressure (+/-60 psi off the top of my head). This is more than enough for water to travel through a 1/2" pipe (unless there's 1000's of feet of it!). The friction factor for water is very low as it is a newtonian fluid with a plastic viscosity of around 1 centipoise.
WAG - May 10th, 8:10 a.m.
Two green days in a row finally!
has anyone tried to look up the APD on the BLM website? I've tried, but the webiste is confusing and overcomplicated. It'd be nice to find it and post it. They posted the location in the well location in their last PR: "The initial drilling location is located in T. 32 N., R. 90 W., Sec. 9 of Fremont County, Wyoming."
My comment only involved your presumed insight into oilfield ecomonics: "that is not going to come for a while on these type plays.. the expenses are going to outweigh the revs if any come in... jmho and i am known to be wrong.."
Now you jump into tangents about past performance, small companies vs large ones, how easy it is do drill exploration wells, and how that somehow applies to our dependence on foreign oil.
There is a lot more to this field of work than you're giving it credit for: engineering, economics, raising capital, mineral rights, environmental law, govt regulations, etc. Some cowboy doesn't just dig a hole in the ground and dance around when oil comes shooting out.
The one thing that you are correct on is that it is an extremely expensive business and smaller companies need to raise capital to fund their operations. Once exploration wells are drilled and reserves are proven, it's a lot easier to raise funds to continue operations because you have assets to leverage your loans against.
that is not going to come for a while on these type plays.. the expenses are going to outweigh the revs if any come in... jmho and i am known to be wrong.. I'm going challenge you on that frankie_fillet. Where do you get this knowledge from? I've worked in the oilfield (field engineering operations and research) for five years, and I'll promise you that recompletion/workover costs can be made up in a matter of days on the Brown County wells. The exploration wells in Wyoming are a slightly different story (only until they know if they have a definite find). Discovery of an economical, produceable find on their exploration wells will equate to revenue that will cover all of the exploration and prep for production costs faster than you can say 'you were right'. If you'd like some numbers, just ask and I can provide....the numbers can be staggering on wells this shallow!!