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Rosen stated (the day the EC was formed) the delay in the SJ ruling was due to waiting for Judge Collyer to rule and now that she's ruled to allow THJMW to handle things, the SJ ruling is expected to be sometime VERY soon.
http://wamuqd.com/RosenResolution.mp3
Remember, the deposit was in FSB and FSB was technically never in FDIC receivership. The contract between JPM and the FDIC specified the FDIC could play games with deposits that had been in receivership...
At some point and hopefully sometime soon Weil or the EC through Weil is going to ask for a list of assets transferred via the "Whole Bank" agreement as the PA specifies it was virtually "The whole bank" that was transferred.
I can't wait for that day.
Likewise, I think by this time next month the 4 billion will be back in WMI's hands and THJMW's hands are no longer tied by possible usurption of her ruling by DC.
If it goes to trial, NOTHING will sway a jury more than knowing the bank was purchased for 1.9 billion this is a 4 billion dollar issue. Bring the FDIC into the fray and they can explain why they waited 13 months to make a move on the cash... ONLY when it looked like WMI was about to take it back.
The bottom line is, we'll wait as long as we have to to get back what is ours. The FDIC and JPM have played a game of stall and delay for 15 months. A few more months won't kill us, especially when we begin seeing massive claims tossed out, tax refunds in the account, and the ball beginning to roll on other arguments over stolen assets.
"My concern however and the reason for the lengthy hold up has been the FDIC."
Nothing personal, but get off your rear and do some DD. There's 15 months of post seizure into here for you to sort through. Start with "project west" and "fraudulent transfer".
You have nothing to back up the claim that Germans are nervous about anything. Until this morning they've been trading higher than the US market this week. A pullback to resync with the US was overdue.
I doubt THJMW will rule on Friday. If she does, watch out. You'll be paying double for these shares within hours if she does. And from that point on the legitimacy of actions of the FDIC and JPM will instantly be called into question... ALL OF IT.
I've never seen so many people asking for and in many cases demanding that others explain the complexities of this case to them "on demand".
If you're not willing to search boards and google for the information than this is a stock you should stay far far far away from as you'll likely flip and get played by the MMs.
"honest question to you and all other members:
what facts make you sure about it?
what makes you think of that potential outcome?
Shareholders in Germany are getting quite nervous recently as they don't expect a ruling about the 4$ billions this friday.
A pro/versus sheet would be helpful."
So you think the fact that JPM offered a low ball of 8 per share in April of 08 is irrelevant? Considering they were talking about wiping out the shareholders when it was 8, I have a hard time believing the controlled demolition of the bank would see them rewarded by allowing them to assume the shares (by force) for 1/4 of what they initially offered.
JPM will be buying a get out of jail free, keep JPM Chase from a "liquidity crisis" card.
If it's a stock swap they will have to do better than 20 to 1. I know the people on the EC and I have little doubt they'd laugh at the offer.
I expect the creditors to demand a little something something on top of what they're owed as well.
For all intents and purposes, once WMI gets the tax refunds they will be solvent.
It's up to JPM. They can play chicken and risk losing the 4 billion and explaining that to their shareholders. They can then risk losing the 6.5 billion in capital contributions. They can deal with fraudulent transfers. They can deal with copyright/trademark infringement which was obviously purposeful and gratuitous. They can deal with breaching the confidentiality agreement and the contract that legally bound them from buying WMB from anyone but WMI for 18 months.
Or they can pay a lot closer to 8 dollars per share.
IF they're going to pay with paper, it should be a much much much better deal than 20:1, especially considering they won't be taking on debt, only assets and cash while ridding themselves of those pesky lawsuits.
"I see it as only logical to have Wamu shares converted to JPM at a WAMUQ=$2.00 value with JPM=$40.00. So for every 20 shares of Wamuq we own we will see 1 share of JPM restricted for six months to a year."
That birdie flew the coop when DC handed it back the THJMW.
They don't stand a chance making it out of this in one piece in her court.
"What about JDs arrogant ego "We´ll win them all"..?"
WaMu Shareholders Get an Equity Committee: Video
I'm always lurking... :)
WaMu Shareholders get an Equity Committee: Video
No, but they could and likely did do that with the stock WMI held in WMB which was rendered worthless at the time of the seizure.
I wonder if the NOLs will wind up being worth even more than what they listed.
If WMI canceled my shares I'd lose money and get a bigger tax refund, not WMI.
"Very interesting....lots of talks about stock abandonment as well (page 40).
I may have this wrong...but....could it be that they were trying to cancel the stocks to increase NOLs hence getting more tax refunds ?
See link below for some details:
http://us.kpmg.com/microsite/taxnewsflash/2008/Mar/08113.html"
This is the prospectus for WAMPQ.
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/933136/000095013407025343/v36123b2e424b5.htm
WAMPQ is series R.
The person that headed the Wamu EC set up a website with info on why it was important to have an EC along with tons of facts about what was going on.
She set up a fax line and had people print out a templated document where people filled in their names and how many of which shares they owned saying they supported an EC.
She collected these letters for somewhere between 6 and 9 months. They wound up with 3500 or so letters and as soon as the timing was right, in November right around when the NOL law passed the law firm she found for us presented the US Trustee in the BK court with the letters.
She found a legal team that basically worked for nothing knowing that if they landed the EC, the estate will pay them. That's how it works. So they prepped for free and once the motion to dissolve is shot down on the 28th they'll be paid by the debtors/wamu.
So, there's no real simple solution I can present. In our case, it was a team effort. Some people helped out with the website. Others worked to make sure the faxes weren't duplicates, some people were working to find legal representation.
I would imagine there were many more institutional holders in Lehman and as I mentioned, someone already tried getting an EC in there at least once before but the US Trustee denied it. I think ours was denied 2 or 3 times as well.
If you can find people with a large state in equity that have big money, I'm sure they can get the ball rolling. But you want to make sure they're not bondholders because in the end 98% of bk reorganization plans end in the bondholders taking over the company.
Those NOLs only need to keep equity intact so long as the refunds due outweigh the amount of money that can be raised through selling new shares.
As I mentioned on yahoo... there are sneaky ways of keeping equity around long enough to reorganize and then through the use of special reverse mergers and things, there are ways of transferring ownership to a subsidiary and wiping out equity in the process.
I wish I had a simple answer for you and I'd point you to the people that worked their tales off to get us our EC, but they're more or less in quiet mode now with their email addresses shut down or with incoming mail blocked.
If you guys care, look up equity committee on the yahoo board. Go back a year and see what was going on. Then check again in the summer for updates. I think most of what went on after the summer was done quietly so as to not tip anyone (Weil, US Trustee, etc) off that it was coming.
But you'll see the wamu people on yahoo (myself included at least for a little while) were up in arms that anyone would even think an EC was needed. We all wanted to believe WMIs legal people had our best interests in mind. Thankfully, by the time we found out we were wrong, these amazing people had already taken things into their own hands and had us covered.
A quick search of "Weil" on that board will show you that over the past few weeks, public opinion on them has turned in a huge way as it looks VERY MUCH like the bondholders planned to wipe us out and then take a settlement or carry the lawsuits out and reap all of the rewards for themselves.
I wish the people on yahoo would digest what I'm saying instead of viewing it as an attack. That's the last thing I want to do. I just want people to be prepared for the day when the tables turn.
You simply cannot expect anyone to look out for equity except for equity. The game isn't played that way and it's the exact reason why Equity Committees exist to begin with.
I want you guys to learn from our mistakes and the amazing actions of others that got it right. There's so much information on the wamu yahoo board that relates to what Lehman is going to see that it's not funny. It just takes so long to find it all.
And yeah, the wamu board over there was attacked on several occasions and many posts were either not indexed, or were deleted. But that's a whole nother story.
I wrote the post on yahoo and trust me, it's something you have to worry about. I wouldn't have posted it if I didn't believe that.
Wamu's assets are now greater than their liabilities and it's still something we've had to deal with.
http://ghostofwamu.com/documents/08-12229/08-12229-2185.pdf
Learn from what's going on with Wamu.
Just because they keep equity intact for the sake of the NOLs does not mean they expect (or plan for) equity to get paid.
Lehman has had people try to get an EC in place before. Hopefully as many of the claims are tossed and once it becomes clear that Barclays, JPM, etc are going to be forking over some serious cash, they'll do so again.
But in the case of Wamu, we watched as the legal team has kept the value of subsidiaries listed as "unknown". They argue the company is hopelessly insolvent while not only are they solvent, but they're suing for 20+ billion.
If equity is not represented by an EC charged with preserving value of the shares, I don't expect to see anyone but the TPs paid anything.
Interestingly enough, as I've mentioned on yahoo, the TPs are REALLY a special of securities and if WAHUQ can be viewed as an example of how Lehman will treat theirs, at these prices they are a steal.
Also, unless I'm missing something, Lehman shares will continue to trade. Large holders will have to file for court approval to trade, but retailers with small fractions of percents of the securities will carry on as if nothing changed.
For the record I've got TPs and some Js.
"So you don't see much validity in the yahoo post that they may try and screw us as they tried the wamu's? I'd hate that, hope its something we don't have to worry about. We've come such a long way..."
Coach, if this is typical NOL stuff they'll include any convertible prefs regardless of value simply because they're directly or indirectly tied to ownership and any substantial change in ownership voids the NOLs.
I think the NOL news is tremendous and Lehman's link to and partial ownership of the Federal Reserve cannot be ignored.
I never thought they were dead and always expected them to live on.
I predict a reverse merger into Aurora... and hopefully shareholders will get a piece of it.
No, I have no proof beyond my gut and some way out there conspiracy theories involving Denver. Regardless, things are about to heat up. We could have more transparency in the next month than we've had an a year and a half.
That in and of itself is big news.
Clinging to my fistful of TPs...
"They would not be trying to expand the order to include the reg preferreds unless there was some value... "
Washington Mutual's Legal Team Turns on WaMu Shareholders & Equity Committee
http://wamuqd.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=80:washington-mutuals-legal-team-turns-on-wamu-shareholders-a-equity-committee&catid=1:latest-news
I got her calender and that was basically empty and worthless. They told me they "lost" her phone records.
Guess we'll see how that flies in court.
Unless they settle first of course.
Expanded discovery is sought to "expand" discovery into the SEC, FDIC, credit ratings agencies, and other banks that were potential suitors but backed off.
There was at least one article that talked about how many suitors there were and then all at once they stopped returning WMI's calls.
Bair claims she was instructing interested parties to call WMI and to keep her out of it.
Guess we'll find out soon enough what she's been hiding under all of that "Sharpee Black" that was used to mask just about ever doc put forward by the FDIC as per Freedom of Information Act requests.
They filed for BK when they became insolvent do to the seizure. Should they have filed for BK protection? Yes. did that trigger the default? Yes.
It doesn't matter if we think they belong in BK or if they plan on emerging. What matters is the filing. Once they filed, the default was triggered. Period.
"again the BK includd that default clause, but should we be in BK at all?"
You might want to read the prospectus... It doesn't protect the Ps. It triggered the default clause as defined in the prospectus.
Might want to look into.
"what? trigger? The filing of BK does not protect the p's!"
I don't think there's going to be a new company...
I think JPM is going to make the move to buy out the holding company once they've got the NOL cash.
JPM knows full well they don't have a leg to stand on in trying to fight for any part of that money since by law anyone that took TARP funds is ineligible.
Just my opinion.
They've done it before...
But I was wondering the same thing anyway. :)
When they say risk management, don't they mean scheming with regulators to steal with 500 million from the FDIC to cover liabilities which could equal the destruction of a 300 billion dollar company with tremble damages should his gamble not pay off?
That's like praising someone for putting everything they own in a slot machine because they're hedging their bet on the comps they'll earn for free grub at the buffet.
"While many of his peers assumed trillions in risk with pennies in reserve, Dimon's superior risk management, along with some taxpayer help, made it possible to dodge the early bullets that took down institutions like Merrill Lynch, Bear Stearns, Wachovia and Lehman Brothers."
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1894410_1893837_1893830,00.html#ixzz0am2WpOUa
Bingo...
At least someone else sees reality here.
Dimon and the guilty parties NEED to make us go away as badly as they need WMI to go away.
If they just give WMI enough to satisfy the bondholders, or allow the bondholders to screw us over, they KNOW they'll still be on the hook.
In my eyes, it's just that simple.
As I said before, Bonderman is looking to wipe out equity and take over the company via the bonds.
That's why the bonds are trading at 98 cents on the dollar while equity is still dangling down here. There's a ton of manipulation as well, but still... you catch my drift.
In my opinion THE ONLY THING WE HAVE GOING FOR US is that JPM knows we know too much and would be leaving themselves open to a class action suit brought against it for conspiring to destroy the company which equity for all intents and purposes owned.
JPM needs this to go away. They need WMI to settle before it gets out of hand. Likewise, they can't have a class action suit being filed that will just pick up where this round of discovery ended.
I trust JPM's legal people to instruct that that any settlement will require an equity committee signing away it's rights to pursue further litigation against JPM much more than I trust Bonderman who clearly used insider information to know to buy up as much of the bonds/debt as possible when it was going to peanuts.
There's only one reason the bonds are trading as high as they are now with the Ps stuck down around 40. The bondholders are counting on wiping out equity and being paid much more than face on their bonds.
Thankfully we've had smart people pushing for this equity committee and working toward that end for the past year. Mark my words, a settlement won't spill over to commons, a settlement with a specific monetary value for the commons will be set in stone before JPM signs off on it.
They have no vested interest in paying their way out of this, effectively buying WMI's silence only to have a class action suit pop up where angry shareholders (especially ex employees) are far more likely to be vengeful, refusing a settlement, but instead seeking full disclosure on JPM's little "Project West".
"the only good thing we have going for us is that Bonderman is the largest shareholder period unless he's made whole on the other end through bonds preferreds etc."
With Bonds trading at .98 cents on the dollar, there's no way the bondholders aren't looking to screw us over.
The court cannot force WMI to turn down a settlement and to continue suing everyone for the sake of equity.
Bopfan is right in that Weil has to claim to be insolvent. But that's where fact ends and assumptions presented as fact begin.
I'm not expecting anyone to believe me over Bopfan. But you all need to think this through logically and not put your absolute in faith in anyone, including me, Bopfan, Weil, Bonderman, etc etc...
Just because Weil is claiming WMI is insolvent today, does NOT mean that if JPM offers them a settlement they will logically then refuse to settle for the sake of equity.
Weil's #1 goal is making sure the bondholders are taken care of, period.
I believe JPM will force WMI to pay us. I believe they'll do this through an equity committee and it will be done to make shareholders via their representation sign away all rights to suing JPM for this same situation, reopening JPM up to the prying eyes of discovery.
We've already got a boatload of information that could be used in a class action suit, should JPM not find a way to keep shareholders from signing away the right to a future class action nightmare.
But if this is up to the Bondholder's they will screw us. And Rosen has done nothing to indicate he has any intention of defending us. That's Bopfan's assumption, not a fact.
Based upon where the bonds are trading in comparison to equity, we NEED that equity committee... period.
The reason the guilty will insist we get paid...
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229091214000000000008.pdf
If we don't get something, you can bet equity that is shunned would turn right around and launch a massive class action suit that will put the guilty right back in the same situation they were in with WMI.
Just my guess, but I don't see how they can get out of not having equity sign off on something that protects them from future litigation (with the potential for further discovery) and run the risk of having this pop right back up, rearing its ugly head in a class action case.
Granted, we'd see squat from a class action suit, but they still NEED this to go away... leaving it to fester on negates the desire to make this "issue" evaporate into the annals of forgotten history.
I would be very careful who you listen to this late in the game. Some people who we have been working in tandem with for months aren't equity holders and/or don't represent equity.
Little stunts like "Email the UST" Campaigns don't serve to do anything but slow down the EC process.
Trust who you want. I'm not telling you who to side with, but make sure you think for yourselves and you don't just follow people blindly. Group think is dangerous. Stay on your toes and be able to make critical decisions for yourselves.
I've been let down a lot over the past couple of months. There were some people I REALLY trusted that have turned out to be snakes and vipers.
Do your own DD and THINK THINK THINK for YOURSELVES!
"Stay strong and just listen to..."
Look up the Caymen shares converted at the time of the seizure...
It's all part of the game. We know they're great at what they do. They don't want an EC. We knew well ahead of today that they didn't want one and that they would/will oppose it.
Don't let it spoil your respect for Weil. It's just all part of the dance. They will oppose an EC as best they can, making a good deal of money drafting whatever it is that they will present to the court to argue against us.
In the end, it will be the trustee and the judge who will be looking out for us.
If/when an EC is granted, Weil will look at us with a healthy respect that as of yet they have no reason to have. We've watched them dance for the past 15 months. They haven't seen us bust a move... yet.
"Today was a WEIL Paradigm Shift for me!! eom"
I don't often make predictions...
But in this case I will.
The Ps are back up to 32 or the ask is anyway. I predict once the Qs get above .13 and stay above .13 we'll see them get back to at least .14 by close.
It looked like NITE worked pretty hard to keep this from getting above .13 on the last "pop".
Buying is substantial and the fact that the Ps turned around shows this is for real and it's not just flippers playing the bounce.
To this point he has refused to have anything to do with it. Don't know what will come of it now that an EC seems imminent.
.093!
Bingo...
It'll explode upwards, but all in due time.
In 15 months I've never seen them work this hard to keep the Qs down. Meanwhile they're scared out of their wits to short the Ps... and yeah, NITE is sitting on the Ask/Bid on the Ps all day today.
They're not usually there.
Yup.. You need access to Level 2 to see it on eTrade.
Funniest Post Ever!
It's up on their website so I'd imagine it's not pay. They're channel 9 and it looks like they have a PBS logo so I really don't think this is a pay or even a cable network.
I have no idea how many people watch it...
But I'd imagine this was will become a much bigger story in Seattle as people start wondering why they lost their jobs for no reason.
New WaMu Videos on YouTube
Kirsten Grind KTS9 Interview on YouTube
http://trueslant.com/matttaibbi/
Might wanna start plastering his blog with wamu requests and links. It seemed to work with Kirsten Grind. Doing it publicly like that might light a fire under his butt.
I'm sure a link to wamustory would blow his readers minds, should they bother checking it out.
FBRC is soaking up shares at .131. Is it a safe bet to assume they'll allow this to run higher and soon?
To my untrained eyes it does. I just find it interesting to see them sitting on the bid like that almost all day.