Washington Mutual Mortgage Reinsurance, Inc. - stock holders won in this major bankruptcy case.
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FDIC and OTS did a bad job. The way this take over went down is so messed up. The fact that the FDIC is empowered by Congress to do their job doesn't mean they can mess up this bad and get away with it.
Here's a description of the FDIC from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank (the paragraphs after these are also good reading) :
"The banking industry is a highly regulated industry with detailed and focused regulators. All banks with FDIC-insured deposits have the FDIC as a regulator; however, for examinations,[clarification needed] the Federal Reserve is the primary federal regulator for Fed-member state banks; the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (“OCC”) is the primary federal regulator for national banks; and the Office of Thrift Supervision, or OTS, is the primary federal regulator for thrifts. State non-member banks are examined by the state agencies as well as the FDIC. National banks have one primary regulator—the OCC.
Each regulatory agency has their own set of rules and regulations to which banks and thrifts must adhere.
The Federal Financial Institutions Examination Council (FFIEC) was established in 1979 as a formal interagency body empowered to prescribe uniform principles, standards, and report forms for the federal examination of financial institutions. Although the FFIEC has resulted in a greater degree of regulatory consistency between the agencies, the rules and regulations are constantly changing. ... "
NEOM lost the thrill for me today. Is there someone here who can tell me why NEOM is a hot item over the next month? It may be low now but I'm not interested in holding that one long until I know why other software will not take their market share. In other words why is their product going to be the one to back?
Hear, hear! Well stated core issues at hand. Thanks for the wrap up after today.
looolllll lmao
Small orders going through again. I think that's how the MM control price.
You should paper trade first if you don't know how to do it. It's simulated trading.
I think most online brokers give you a way to try trading before you use real money.
Rippidity do dah, rippidity ay ... my oh my what wonderful day.
Plenty of sunshine coming our way, rippidity do da, rippidity ay.
Yeah, what he said, thanks Z for the early strong leadership here. It made all the difference to me and mine.
THANKS SURVIVOR, I NEEDED THOSE REMINDERS OF THE LONG TERM POTENTIAL.
Excellent post, imho.
This is a bank stock. This is a large bank's stock. The float is thin, it's national news, the suit is valid, imho. The legal team has just provided a A+ job filing. This document is a lesson in how it's done. The preparation for this suit took at least 4 months, and the plaintiff is well funded.
The seizure and transfer was a clumsy affair. Large investors want their money back! Tens of thousands of stock holders want a full accounting and they want any damages or stock value they can get after this sudden and brutal event.
A stock swap is a possibility. A settlement for damages is also a possibility. New records are set everyday. This was a record fast take over of a record size banking company in a record setting year for bank failures. So, old records are likely to be broken again.
WMI was WMB's holding company before WMB was seized and sold to JPM. See the math posted by diamond guru. It's simple math.
cool data sidedraft.
Yep! WTH - what the heck? !!!
The U.S. is a big social experiment and we citizens are in charge of the outcome. Staying focused on the principles at hand and highlighting these principals in conversations will produce the results necessary to make further adjustments toward a mo' betta' union. Back to basics.
There's only 6 degrees of separation, if that. 100th monkey stuff... with our help, and the help of many posters, may the judge express the spirit of the law in her decision and/or may those responsible at FDIC, JPM, and WMI choose wisely.
StockVader, Sorry, I didn't mean "you", I meant "one".
What's cool about our post-industrial society, i.e. the information age, is that discussions like this one and the many others that are occurring all over the country and on the net right now are increasing our general understanding. Those who can make coherent, logical and factual statements are encouraged to do so now! Everyone is encouraged to read. This is the vitality and interaction that makes people happy and evolving. Yes, the average level of education is nominal if not poor, but positive participation is the solution. It only takes a second to become informed and from then on the discussion is improved. For example, this link, once read by anyone will, itself, be a link to the overall evolution of the average understanding. The pivotal issues at hand on this matter and many other financial and business matters are profound. Link to the court filing: http://www.sidedraught.com/stocks/WashingtonMutual/WMI%20v%20FDIC%20Complaint.pdf
Don't expect to understand it but read it anyway. Before you know it the language will start making sense. If you don't read it you won't be as informed as you could be. If you do, you may. Increase your chances of being informed and accurate in your response to this great business and investment opportunity. Knowing how the legal system works is not a bad thing. lol
Here in Seattle, our last standing daily newspaper has put the story on the front page of the Sunday print edition and on the front page of their website.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/home/index.html
Aside from all the anger, joy, and confusing feelings I feel about potential income, injustice and uninformed postings, over the next few weeks and months I will focus my attention on the decision making process worked out in the court the judge. I want to see the reasoning behind the FDIC's roll in our banking system and hear an explanation of why WAMU was taken over and sold so quickly to it's #1 market opponent, it's competition, the very company that clearly coveted WAMU banks. Had Hank Paulson and Sheila Bair somehow arranged with a less agressive, less obvious competitor for the "purchase" this wouldn't be quite as obtuse and offensive. The rule of law is under the microscope on this "deal" between Hank, Sheila, and Jamie. Who is the law? That's what I want to know now. I have bet on the courts and common sense reasoning by investing in WAMUQ. I know where I stand.
I know! It's freaking great really. This is the kind of excitement I get up for!
LOL LOL and it's JPM's time to stew... it'll all get worked out...it's all good, just good fun, right?
...and my shares will be worth many times the .045 I paid for them!
we are rockin' the boat now!
I'm going to watch every move on level 2 and the intraday chart. That's the only way I expect to get the most personally relevant data minute by minute. This is a once in a life time opportunity to watch the stock market do its thing.
Many banks, not just WAMU, created subprime problems. I'm not sure if JPM or WAMU actually had more "toxic assets" but it doesn't matter now. What matters is that the take over is now being challenged on some very strong legal grounds. This is going to set precedent for the FDIC and it's powers to responsibly maintain our banking system. If the rampant, "free market" culture had not been so very deregulated this may not have happened. Since it did, the FDIC is actually, more responsible for the failure in a sense, than the bank itself! Common sense says the organizations that are meant to protect and guide are not there to trash, bash, and then railroad highly valuable banking assets or trade them for pennies on the dollar to their competition, at least I hope they are not.
Mergers and acquisitions, consolidation and reorganization can be done in a much more civilized manner.
What's JPM going to say about WMI suing the FDIC? JPM should sue them to for setting them up for this failure!
I'm here in Seattle and I think the hasty grab by JPM and the FDIC hurt us deeply. It hurts at a time when the economy is already slow. The long, drawn out confusion further contributes to insult of the forced take over. I'm going to benefit from this improvement in circumstances and I hope many other Northwesterners do too.
Thanks for asking.
Best to all who have hung on.
Joseph
Washington Mutual Bank's holding company just filed suit claiming fraudulent conveyance by the FDIC. See the WAMUQ board for more info. It's been a long, quiet wait. Might see a jump in price and volume on Monday. Commons closed at about .04 today.
I always get a good lift reading the consistent diamondguru one!
Thanks diamond!
Sometimes judges will award more than asked but I'm no lawyer.
Go WAMU!
I have to start giving back now that I have learned a few things. Glad I could be some help. I do hope that someone sets up a party for the stock holders if and when this goes ballistic. I wish I had more to put in here.
Thank you Billiam for your clarity. That is the kind of advice I have learned is worth listening to, in contrast to the hit and run posts that try to discourage or confuse the facts.
What I have learned watching these stocks daily using L2 and intraday charting as well as reading this board, (thanks to many including Zardiw and Jackson and many others), is that the small buys of 100 shares, and such, establishes the price at that moment and if they want to keep the price down they simply buy and sell at the bid. All things considered, up to right now the appetite for this stock among buyers is currently satiated and there are many less risky or more immediately rewarding plays. All this is my opinion, unlike the blatantly stated proclamations of doom by others.
These stocks are still trading because they represent a rather solvent entity which is in negotiations for a settlement that recovers damages due to a hasty and fumbled "merger" or seizure and sale. If it weren't fumbled it would be done and much more clear about what the outcome will be. Anyone who says they know how this will turn out is simply mistaken. What will happen is that lawyers will follow due process, the judge will make decisions and the company owners and executives will comply or continue legal maneuvering. A benefit to those who hope for a return is that our current administration is leaning toward a more just and fair union and business environment, unlike the previous one.
Banker, The MMs have been doing all they can to control this for months and months. The trading pattern is highly restricted by thousands of very small trades by MMs, trades which mock the "free market" idea that individual traders like myself come to market with. It's kind of like the layer of decision makers between the people and the final election results, the electoral college. The market makers, MMs, get to mess with the "votes" in a way. It seems to me the power that large banking institutions have on targeted securities, such as WAMUQ, WAMKQ, WAMPQ is profound. I don't know the inner workings, incentives, or means by which they employ individuals or software to restrict securities to particular ranges but I can assure you that JPM has no interest in seeing these stock prices go up since they may very well have to pay for their involvement dearly by assessing the market value and then providing some related cash in exchange for damages to the company and it's stock holders. I invite discussion on this matter while we wait out the remain weeks of process.
Hi Pawsy, The suit I have been referring to is yet to be filed and so the defendants are not fully identified. It is not a class action suit that will determine the future ownership of WMI assests. Currently it is the WMI ownership and their attorneys that are demanding that the take over be revisited, to say the least!
Hi John,
Though JPM attorneys have tried their best to confuse the issues with legal blather they have met their match on this one. Also, the judge/s will take the time needed to make solidly defensible decisions while making the best out of a bad situation. Justice is and has always been relative, right? But, I just want to provide a little clarity on the fundamentals here, as you are doing as well.
Fundamentally, the mistakes are on record now. How the settlement looks is still up in the air but WMI will not be harmed further due to court action, in my opinion. They may collect damages, which is not unusual when fraudulent conveyance, and things like that such as negligence, intentional misrepresentation, breach of contract, etc. is on the table.
This is a rather simplified legal framework, I think.
Jim Cramer is, right now, making this same argument about short selling. He is not wrong to do so! lol
This is a fight, with a capital F. The court documents are enough for anyone with half a brain to conclude that real money is going after justice. Justice of some type will be served, whether Congress, President Obama, Geitner, Dimon, or even WAMU execs like the outcome, it's beyond any one group controlling the outcome now. The threat of a law suit is clearly in play. Once it is filed then a deal will be worked out or legal precedent begins to be applied. Precedent may not be easy to find but we know the FDIC can loose, we also know that JPM can sue FDIC and they can both loose. Imagine the FDIC wanting to avoid a suit from JPM too. WMI has already lost so it can only go up from here. The courts and judges will not join the confusion, they will slice this knot open and let the past fade. IMHO, WAMU stock holders who have had the sense to average down will be glad they did and those who got in after the BK will profit handsomely. This is my humble opinion on the eve of our destiny. (a little pomp and circumstance added for fun.)
LOL and really. But this won't be sidelined. This is an historical turn of events in banking. The settlement will be studied for years to come.
No charges were filed in that past investigation. The class action law suit is about getting paid for the stock they have/ had in WAMU primarily. There will be a deal struck so our banking system can be made whole sooner rather than later. Common sense and common law actually over ride in emergency situations such as the scenario we are in now. IMHO.
Questionable bank run, i.e. 16 billion out, is being investigated, no doubt. Jim sCramer has said it many times, "...everyone knows its wrong and everyone does it... rumoring and short selling..." Last Spring to Fall was a perfect time for those who knew how to pull the strings to do so. JPM, Paulson, and the OTS did this without respect to the damages to the Northwest, it's citizens, and our home town bank. They did this in the guise of protecting the U.S. economy! To hasty indeed!
IT IS NOT ALL HYPOTHETICAL AT THIS POINT.
WE KNOW THE LAWYERS ARE GETTING PAID TO GET OUR MONEY BACK. THAT IS NOT A THEORY. THIS STOCK IS GOING UP ON NEWS. THAT IS NOT A THEORY. WMI IS FIGHTING FOR ITS LIFE. THAT IS NOT A THEORY. JPM WANTS TO LEGALLY OWN WM BANKS. THAT IS NOT A THEORY. I COULD GO ON.
"The G-20 officials also called for financial reforms, including
registration and regulatory oversight of all credit-rating agencies,
transparency for off-balance-sheet vehicles and improved accounting
standards."
Credit Rating Agencies are paid more for each derog so they are incentivized to keep inaccurate records to the determent of the borrower and lender.
The credit equation is simple: income minus expenses equals "disposable income". A debt to income ratio of 50% is reasonable, anything over that cuts too far into national savings and thereby jeopardizes the whole U.S. economy.
Fast forward to a mass realization that the whole thing is just how we want to make it! Whoa. Now that would stop gold from going to moon, and it would provide basics for everyone. From there we can learn to engineer vitality into a "free market". IMHO. The idea that this market was ever "free" is a false assumption and misconception. One is always subject to something and thus never completely "free". Over abundance with little leadership or experience has produced over consumption, and a new kind of poverty.
Anyway, it's all how you want to value it; mark to market is probably going to go the way of the gold standard, eventually, in some form or another.
J in Seattle
Never let it be said, and never let it go unchallenged - that tired old sentiment; "I can't do anything about it...".
I can always do something about "it", and Jackson is!
And I am too. I will follow up as well and I have been spreading the story so people can look into it.
J in Seattle