Washington Mutual Mortgage Reinsurance, Inc. - stock holders won in this major bankruptcy case.
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That settles that! Weil is enough of a common factor to compare the two. Precedence, which is often the most convincing argument, is something Weil is very familiar with and will use that advantage.
Amazing but graceful !
The link isn't working but if it's about how the WAMU management messed up; they did.
I do residential mortgage loans. I live in Seattle. I worked with borrowers and brought loans to WAMU.
Subprime loans are not always a bad idea. Packaging them into bonds and rating them too high is. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water unless you really don't like babies.
I mean, home ownership went up. Foreclosures are a good way to keep borrowers, appraisers, banks, mortgage lenders and real estate agents honest. I have made money on short sales. But the issue is the Wall Street greed machine that ran amuck for years. I got into commercial lending nationally and internationally. I talked with many of these self-absorbed lending agents. Mostly lies, smoke screen and variations on b.s. is what I got trying to talk sense to lending agents.
I worked on a refi for a couple very large homes on Long Island in '07. They didn't go through but I was told to get the loan in and it would be packaged and sent out within days to the bond makers, np.
So, I heard and saw the process in it's prime. Not a good thing. Again, subprime residential mortgages must and will come back, even the FHA is a type of subprime. It's the guys who go up the ladder and want more and more and more that invented the exotic derivatives that really took us, and many international investors down. I worked on originating a derivative for a client for about 3 months, not knowing exactly what I was doing. I learned from a few more experienced guys that thin ice is not something they tread on. Wrapping this up, I suggest that we go with the new idea from the Fed and the Treasury about a new watch dog bureau that can move quickly. Luckily there is already a new clearing house for derivatives that was recently set up.
I'm here everyday and thanks for the encouragement. I saw the market bottom coming and tooled up for the coming climb. My new trading station is yet to be brought online because I'm waiting for my XP 64 OS disk coming in the mail next week. I have a new desktop I built with 8gigs RAM and 3 22" monitors with room for at least one more. Now I need to leverage my small trading booty with items like CDIV, BCHC, EESO, SGLS, and PRVU. I'm long and strong in WAMUQ and WAMKQ too. There's high hopes the recently filed suit naming the FDIC will bring some justice to the WAMU stock holders.
I turned 2k into over 10k back in late '98 and early '99 but didn't know enough then to get out fast when it was time.
When I have something to add I sure will do so here. In the meantime I'm singing the praises of the Monk's Den.
I didn't hear that but I did hear her say basically; "we sold wamu to jpm." as though it was no big deal. The suit, I'm sure is giving her pause she is not displaying here.
Bair is on CNBC right now; 4:00 Pacific
Monk, Thanks. XYTS up today made a difference in my humble portfolio. When BCHC comes back that will help too.
Joseph
Thanks for posting that crucial document. It appears to be the paperwork that executed the seizure and transfer, or at least one crucial piece. Page 10 at the bottom mentions that this transfer poses little risk to JPM. That may not be true! How could anyone with any sense think the largest savings association founded in the late 1800's would be owned and managed by people who would let this happen without a fight. Making this hasty transfer without truly assessing the costs to all involved, especially the receivers and the government offices seems an obvioius mistake. Furthermore, I think WMI can show how they would have been able to cover the risk their subprime portfolio had created. The least I, personally, expect is due process and common sense applied to this case. If the tremendous financial loss incurred by stock holders, northwest citizens, and institutional investors such as China and TPG deserve any consideration, I sure hope to hear the argument from the receivership exactly how the FDIC and the greater body of U.S. citizens, the FDIC's employer, benefit from taking down Washington Mutual Bank. Yep, I do. I want a complete explanation and I want to see the math.
The Congressional hearings today did expose the basic strategy in the works; a new regulatory structure is coming that will fill the gaps and allow for the administrations managers to a. regulate, b. coach, and c. seize bank and bank-like companies when they are blatantly abusing the trust bestowed by citizen investors. IMHO
Thank you Mordicai.
Thanks Pawsy. I just added to it.
That is a good summary but there is no WAMU entity. The stock of the WMB was "sold" to JPM! This is something no one seems to be discussing here. JPM is now the "owner" of the stock trading under the names, WAMUQ, WAMPQ, WAMKQ, I think. Again, I'm not a lawyer or banker. In the filing the plaintiff, WMI, on page 3 says the stock of WMBfsb was sold to JPM.
Is WMBfsb another business entity that can be separated from WMB? I don't know. The deposits and retail outlets were the apple of JPMs eye. The stock is more of a liability. WMI will come out of BK.
This is great time to learn how these things go.
Yes, the suit is requesting a jury trial but in the lead up to the trial, the judge makes decisions which impact the whole picture. I can only imagine the judge is staying tuned to the emerging new policies as well as familiarizing herself with precedence.
Hi Gold, I've been watching too. I see your point. The "managers" at the treasury and fed have jobs to do. I see their job as being in service to the president and the popular vote. We the people want the greedy bastads to clean up their act or get out. Of course, old habits are hard to break but these hearings, as clumsy as they are, seem to be helping to bring light to the back room dealings that don't benefit the man on the street enough to sustain an viable economy long term.
Will the treasury and the fed hold sway over the judge, and this case? I would love to see the power structure and communication channels in a flow chart showing how that will happen.
I believe in leadership so I expect these guys to do a reasonably good job. Notice that Ron Paul didn't have a alternate solution to offer. I expect that TPG and China and the many other institutional investors are making themselves known on these matters!
This is land mark case for the history books and econ courses for years to come.
wrong
I concur with Lawrence. I'm selling a pink or two on momentum to put more in here. I may make it in time. I'm holding until settlement.
I agree. Once the Bar Date passes then the important details related to resolving the suit will be at hand. The suit will remain essentially the same but the plaintiffs can be much more specific about damages with the details in hand.
The suit is contesting the transfer, i.e. seizure, and arguing for a fair value assessment; the actual value and thus damages. The many points presented in the filing cover these two issues in detail and other issues that must be cleared up for this to be settled once and for all. The fact that these some of these issues have not been voluntarily handled by JPM agents and that the FDIC has not already insisted that JPM get some of this worked out with WMI should make even easier for the judge and jury to fault JPM. They have had plenty of time to create some resolution.
Yeah, lol lol lol good stuff.
The Supreme Court wrote this about the suit brought by Franklin Savings vs United States of America, re: the FDIC and OTS seizure of them:
http://www.usdoj.gov/osg/briefs/2004/0responses/2004-0693.resp.pdf
A critical conclusion and firm stand is taken by the Supreme Court at that time and it's stated in the last paragraph on p. 20. In my opinion the word "non-compensable" is used to to explain that the court didn't agree with the defendants; those who did the seizing, that the seizure should have happened simply because there are regulations in place and the FDIC and it's agents are suppose to exercise their responsibility to uphold those regulations. I translate this to mean that with WMI/WMB, Hank Paulson and Shiela Bair are going to have to be very specific about exactly how they concluded that WMB must be seized. This may be a stretch in logic but it seems relevant. The nitty gritty arguments made by defendants will include all kinds twists. Friday's filing specifies several specific issues that easily bring into question why and how this seizure occurred and they point to,what appears to be a very vulnerable OTS/FDIC/JPM collusion. But, hey what do I know? I've spent months reading but I'm not a lawyer.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/compensable - the definition of compensable.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE1D81138F935A3575AC0A966958260 - A news article on the Franklin win.
The circuit court decision: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/fedclaim/2003/98697cp.pdf
The Supreme Court's decision refusing a further review:
http://www.usdoj.gov/osg/briefs/2004/0responses/2004-0693.resp.pdf See page 20. The appeal is turned down because the arguments for an appeal were not worthy a review by the Supreme Court.
The Franklin Savings case is from another period in financial time but the fact that our higher courts chose to reward plaintiffs against the FDIC when the bullying got out of hand is a good sign for WMI. The least Washington Mutual Bank stock holders and Northwest citizens should have been given is an orderly and respectful burial! But the WMI lives and breathes! I concluded that the last stab for insider power in the Bush era was botched and it's time for the powers that be to admit it and settle up so we can all move on.
FDIC and OTS did a bad job. The way this take over went down is so messed up. The fact that the FDIC is empowered by Congress to do their job doesn't mean they can mess up this bad and get away with it.
Here's a description of the FDIC from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank (the paragraphs after these are also good reading) :
"The banking industry is a highly regulated industry with detailed and focused regulators. All banks with FDIC-insured deposits have the FDIC as a regulator; however, for examinations,[clarification needed] the Federal Reserve is the primary federal regulator for Fed-member state banks; the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (“OCC”) is the primary federal regulator for national banks; and the Office of Thrift Supervision, or OTS, is the primary federal regulator for thrifts. State non-member banks are examined by the state agencies as well as the FDIC. National banks have one primary regulator—the OCC.
Each regulatory agency has their own set of rules and regulations to which banks and thrifts must adhere.
The Federal Financial Institutions Examination Council (FFIEC) was established in 1979 as a formal interagency body empowered to prescribe uniform principles, standards, and report forms for the federal examination of financial institutions. Although the FFIEC has resulted in a greater degree of regulatory consistency between the agencies, the rules and regulations are constantly changing. ... "
NEOM lost the thrill for me today. Is there someone here who can tell me why NEOM is a hot item over the next month? It may be low now but I'm not interested in holding that one long until I know why other software will not take their market share. In other words why is their product going to be the one to back?
Hear, hear! Well stated core issues at hand. Thanks for the wrap up after today.
looolllll lmao
Small orders going through again. I think that's how the MM control price.
You should paper trade first if you don't know how to do it. It's simulated trading.
I think most online brokers give you a way to try trading before you use real money.
Rippidity do dah, rippidity ay ... my oh my what wonderful day.
Plenty of sunshine coming our way, rippidity do da, rippidity ay.
Yeah, what he said, thanks Z for the early strong leadership here. It made all the difference to me and mine.
THANKS SURVIVOR, I NEEDED THOSE REMINDERS OF THE LONG TERM POTENTIAL.
Excellent post, imho.
This is a bank stock. This is a large bank's stock. The float is thin, it's national news, the suit is valid, imho. The legal team has just provided a A+ job filing. This document is a lesson in how it's done. The preparation for this suit took at least 4 months, and the plaintiff is well funded.
The seizure and transfer was a clumsy affair. Large investors want their money back! Tens of thousands of stock holders want a full accounting and they want any damages or stock value they can get after this sudden and brutal event.
A stock swap is a possibility. A settlement for damages is also a possibility. New records are set everyday. This was a record fast take over of a record size banking company in a record setting year for bank failures. So, old records are likely to be broken again.
WMI was WMB's holding company before WMB was seized and sold to JPM. See the math posted by diamond guru. It's simple math.
cool data sidedraft.
Yep! WTH - what the heck? !!!
The U.S. is a big social experiment and we citizens are in charge of the outcome. Staying focused on the principles at hand and highlighting these principals in conversations will produce the results necessary to make further adjustments toward a mo' betta' union. Back to basics.
There's only 6 degrees of separation, if that. 100th monkey stuff... with our help, and the help of many posters, may the judge express the spirit of the law in her decision and/or may those responsible at FDIC, JPM, and WMI choose wisely.
StockVader, Sorry, I didn't mean "you", I meant "one".
What's cool about our post-industrial society, i.e. the information age, is that discussions like this one and the many others that are occurring all over the country and on the net right now are increasing our general understanding. Those who can make coherent, logical and factual statements are encouraged to do so now! Everyone is encouraged to read. This is the vitality and interaction that makes people happy and evolving. Yes, the average level of education is nominal if not poor, but positive participation is the solution. It only takes a second to become informed and from then on the discussion is improved. For example, this link, once read by anyone will, itself, be a link to the overall evolution of the average understanding. The pivotal issues at hand on this matter and many other financial and business matters are profound. Link to the court filing: http://www.sidedraught.com/stocks/WashingtonMutual/WMI%20v%20FDIC%20Complaint.pdf
Don't expect to understand it but read it anyway. Before you know it the language will start making sense. If you don't read it you won't be as informed as you could be. If you do, you may. Increase your chances of being informed and accurate in your response to this great business and investment opportunity. Knowing how the legal system works is not a bad thing. lol
Here in Seattle, our last standing daily newspaper has put the story on the front page of the Sunday print edition and on the front page of their website.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/home/index.html
Aside from all the anger, joy, and confusing feelings I feel about potential income, injustice and uninformed postings, over the next few weeks and months I will focus my attention on the decision making process worked out in the court the judge. I want to see the reasoning behind the FDIC's roll in our banking system and hear an explanation of why WAMU was taken over and sold so quickly to it's #1 market opponent, it's competition, the very company that clearly coveted WAMU banks. Had Hank Paulson and Sheila Bair somehow arranged with a less agressive, less obvious competitor for the "purchase" this wouldn't be quite as obtuse and offensive. The rule of law is under the microscope on this "deal" between Hank, Sheila, and Jamie. Who is the law? That's what I want to know now. I have bet on the courts and common sense reasoning by investing in WAMUQ. I know where I stand.
I know! It's freaking great really. This is the kind of excitement I get up for!
LOL LOL and it's JPM's time to stew... it'll all get worked out...it's all good, just good fun, right?
...and my shares will be worth many times the .045 I paid for them!
we are rockin' the boat now!
I'm going to watch every move on level 2 and the intraday chart. That's the only way I expect to get the most personally relevant data minute by minute. This is a once in a life time opportunity to watch the stock market do its thing.
Many banks, not just WAMU, created subprime problems. I'm not sure if JPM or WAMU actually had more "toxic assets" but it doesn't matter now. What matters is that the take over is now being challenged on some very strong legal grounds. This is going to set precedent for the FDIC and it's powers to responsibly maintain our banking system. If the rampant, "free market" culture had not been so very deregulated this may not have happened. Since it did, the FDIC is actually, more responsible for the failure in a sense, than the bank itself! Common sense says the organizations that are meant to protect and guide are not there to trash, bash, and then railroad highly valuable banking assets or trade them for pennies on the dollar to their competition, at least I hope they are not.
Mergers and acquisitions, consolidation and reorganization can be done in a much more civilized manner.