Washington Mutual Mortgage Reinsurance, Inc. - stock holders won in this major bankruptcy case.
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It depends on the definition of "WE", RIGHT?
Democracy is obviously not indestructible, nor is capitalism, nor is our constitution.
The United States is destructible as a sovereign state if we allow others to take over. China is holding the cash. We have the debt. Who is in control? This is a chicken and the egg thing isn't it?
The sense of "we" is what creates a national identity and a "state", in political science jargon.
WMI still has some control now because they are defended by the BK laws and because JPM and the FDIC and the bond holders all want something they don't have yet.
If there is no reasonable offer to settle then I will concede that "we" have been taken over by the forces of evil! lol
per bopfan further:
"Even if the FDIC can prove it really was nervous about WMB's condition it wouldn't matter because the issue front and center is the value of what the FDIC took vs. what WMI received. The FDIC cannot win on the valuation issue so it is trying to show the public that it acted in good faith in seizing a poorly managed institution. This argument might help it in the media, but it won't affect the legal case."
http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_(A_to_Z)/Stocks_W/threadview?m=tm&bn=86316&tid=101182&mid=101251&tof=1&rt=2&frt=2&off=1
yeeee haw!
Ain't it! Good point; how does the FDIC complain about damages in the BK court and have it relate to settling this thing?
Don't they have to sue for that? What's the item list of things they lost if they paid nothing?
Is this a fatalistic work? Is that guy getting walked on ?
Thanks for the financial history bit, really. I appreciate it.
We are all getting something out of this exercise in corporate law and stuff and I'm really appreciating it. I hear you Jackson, and I hear Mordicai in there too. The whole thing is slipping away from JPM, in a manner of speaking.
JPM could be thinking that they got a broken system for almost nothing and they don't want to go on record spending any more than they have to put this behind them, therefore inaction and weak efforts are the cheapest way to proceed. The negotiations that will most benefit JPM will likely come from the BK court judge in that, after proof of claim, the judge simply rules on what is whoms', or who's is whats. LOL.
Basically, the less JPM spends on this the more they make and so they may just let WMI lawyers and FDIC lawyers fight it out. I don't know. They sure would look bad if they argued to steal more even after they stole everything anyway. And, it's clearly too much to ask for JPM to step and and do the right thing and give the 4 billion back or similar gestures.
I like the fact the FDIC is going to have to cover themselves to the benefit of WMI, imho.
I agree; the isometrics of economics. (you may quote me; economic isometrics)
Why not stress test in all directions? At some point, without the gold standard, we all just have to believe.
no fear, just do it.
No one is going to stop the making of money, no way, no how.
These guys don't really like these meetings anyway... but if a job has to be done... I hope they do it.
I would love to see an overhaul of the IRS! lol Now that might bring us all together for one big meeting!!!!
Yep. Yes siree. FDIC blah blah blah... "we were cheated!" That's like saying, "we didn't do our job judge and we were tricked and it's their fault that we took them over and sold them for a penny on the dollar... "
f that.
This article is about the FDIC responding to the law suit by WMI. This is an aggressive claim but it will have to be proven to have merit.
The jury trial that WMI wants is still in the works and discovery is still a threat.
I don't know much but I think that even the FDIC has to listen to the judge about how this is going to go down.
Even if WMI owes the FDIC some money, it is likely that a solid argument is going to be made about the hasty nature of the seizure. Isn't the FDIC suppose to know these things before hand? Did WMI really hide or mislead them?
Even if they did, the FDIC can not come out of this clean and civil suit with treble damages trumps the losses the FDIC might have in mind. Maybe.
Just forget about it then Epson.
Thanks HotSauce,
I personally get a thrill from stories like this.
When people get together voluntarily to discuss large problems and they use modern consensus building communication techniques all relevant points of view can be lodged for all attendees to consider. This is progress, human progress.
I'm for maintaining sovereignty and I am for cooperation. Good ideas may come from any number of sources.
I am already taking for granted that the current administration's agents, e.g. Geitner, will use far more effective communications than the previous one. This will benefit WMI as it looks forward to doing business in the banking sector domestically and otherwise. Progress in this area will also help JPM to abide by rules to exercise "The American Way" in a more virtuous manner, hopefully.
It boils down to crunching the global banking data by intelligent, empowered leaders and then simply finding a way to ride that bull with some control. Previously there was no control. One new development on this topic is the Chicago Mercantile clearing house for derivatives set up about a month ago. I don't much about it but I hear it got set up so that there is more transparency to this complex paper.
I think I get you now: the smaller the investor the more vulnerable to the new "hair cut" rules by the soon to be created regulatory body?
I'm going to read more closely. Thanks for the explanation.
Lawrence and board readers, The article Lawrence refers to concludes thusly:
"A year ago such cooperation would have been unthinkable. The Lehman bankruptcy, for example, set off a dispute between the United States and Britain over whether $8 billion in cash should have been removed from the British subsidiary and sent to New York just before the broker went bust. But the current crisis has shaken up people so much that things once in the too-difficult box may now just be possible. "
The author is, as I like to say, "taking it up". He is trying to make the best of a bad situation by highlighting the fact that greater cooperation has resulted from the mess uncovered and that possibilities for solutions are now more abundant.
After decades of "personal development" and "self improvement work" being created and sold by every one from Hubbard to Tony Robbins, Oprah and Dr. Phil, it seems apparent to me that the single most common aspect of all this work is summed up in one word: "possibilities". The idea that we have been forced to choose between, vanilla and chocolate, right or wrong, good or bad, is false; false choices. The opportunity in the moment of danger is to see several good possibilities, not just liberal or conservative paths.
This isn't for this board though. WMB was not a liberal bank and JPM isn't a conservative bank. Virtue is not a liberal or conservative idea. Nonvirtuous behavior is what created the banking problem and virtuous behavior offers many new possibilities for workable solutions. imho.
I think so too.
Interesting, and characteristic too. I guess that would be true to the aggressive business style that makes JPM so attractive to investors; take no prisoners. But, they left the holding company standing.
The impact of Barclays claiming JPM did something wrong about the seizure and sale can not be underestimated. I'm not a lawyer but I do know a few things about marketing and advertising. This is very bad PR for JPM and ultimately for the Fed too. Texas is going to get a show if they go to court.
I can't imagine this being dragged on for years. There is so little precedent for this size of cluster f that even experienced lawyers will have a hard time predicting accurately. imho
Which ever one you choose. I'm not picky about the room, just the babes!
LOL
If they are solvent they may be able to buy or merge with some of the banks that will undoubtedly be seized over the next year. imho
Don, PM if you want to discuss "things".
I'm more than willing to discuss with you.
Joseph
Don, JPM made an offer, an offer that insults the intelligence of any and all sentient humans, in my opinion.
Those who entertain and relish the idea of getting 300 billion for 2 billion are suffering from the dillusions of grandeur that have undermined the U.S. and our democracy world wide. That is ignorance, greed, selfishness, and banality all in one thought; "if we can we should", or "who cares?", or "it's our right as the largest", etc. It's a not the idea that makes America great and it isn't capitalism. Check out the movie, "A Beautiful Mind"; http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0268978/ The Nobel Prize winner pointed out that the most selfish path to enrichment is not the most profitable, in a nutshell.
Go figure! lol
Ummm.... cannibalism is not appealing to anyone, and certainly not to wealthy Middle Eastern royals with large cash, or Chinese with large cash. They are watching us try to see our way to a "larger sense of self".
The more rights we have the more responsibility we have. We have spent 200 years logging rights as laws. Necessarily, responsibilities are now going to be dolled out in large portions to those with all these rights. This is being welcomed by those who truly wish to see this experiment in democracy work. Otherwise, all the responsibilities will be the work of the lower class and all the rights will be enjoyed solely by the wealthy; the trend until recently.
It's time for a sea change, a pendulum swing, reset and reorganization. The administration requested GM CEO to quit and he did. After all, the company would have been bought by some Chinese or other cash rich entity since no other car company in this capitalistic system was able to buy it. Imgine what the price for GM may have been if JPM were offering? lol
So, the trash is getting hauled off and the place is going to be refreshed. If that means that some of the pooled cash at JPM is redistributed to you and me, why complain? Gold coins are not against the law, but I might reinvest some of my earnings into local real estate to buttress the local economy and general financial base of our national economy. Appraised value of real estate is the foundation of the financial system we call capitalism. If you allow your property to run down you are, essentially, unpatriotic! How about that! all my opinion.
The word "government" does not mean inefficient. Does it?
The word government means governing and stuff like that.
Our government has 3 branches, not 4.
The 4th branch is often identified by the super wealthy who do whatever they want. That branch is being shut down for now.
Without the Judicial branch we wouldn't have a hope of running anything close to a free market or capitalism.
Please open up to the new ideas. Even the most conservative thinkers are accepting the idea that our government has been slow to modernize. It is time for a higher quality of government. The new, young, well educated and even somewhat enlightened leaders are bringing new ideas to every conversation.
Thomas Jefferson and his opponents all agreed that dialogue was the life blood of democracy. Through dialogue our language is created. From language come new ideas. Let's allow for some new ideas to blossom here. For example, let's allow for the possibility that JPM, though the big dog in this capitalistic system, will be forced through government intervention to merge more equitably to the benefit of the WAMU stock holders.
Problem?
There is a middle ground. Find it for yourself and help bring us all together. Okay?
Sidedraft, Thank you for that link. This is huge news. It may mean that the road blocks to progress toward a sustainable auto industry and a sustainable quality natural environment may get fast tracked. I have often wondered what the revolution would look like and this is one big part of it. The FED coffers give billions and then replace management; management hopefully not calcified with years of bad habits but with vision and leadership that welcomes unlimited possibilities for alternatives to the archaic fossil fuels.
Thank you. I'm going to include that link in an email to my 7 brothers and sister scattered around the nation and overseas. I will make it my weekly family news! lol
WMB and WMI management and ownership are essentially the same people. If you understand this then you will understand that they saw JPM coming for them, for years! Large feet hitting the ground as the gorilla approached gave management plenty of time to imagine survival scenarios. One of the key pieces to the survival scenario is to have a solvent holding company that is prepared to fight if it looses it's banks. Right? That's easy enough to understand.
The drama of banking territory wars goes back many decades. WMB grew widely over the last 30 years and continued to under price local competition with "free checking". That pisses off the competition.
There is a natural pecking order at work here. The fact that JPM is favored by the U.S. Congress, to our collective benefit; just to be clear, is not enough of a reason to allow the out and out pillaging of WMB and WMI.
Right? I mean, even if JPM is a keystone of our economy and even if WMB was "insolvent" and even if JPM needed the boost to keep our nation's #1 bank in play, for JPM to cannibalize WMB is ethically and morally untenable. Therefore, it is clear that some measure of justice will occur and the value of all these shares will increase. The BK laws are in favor of this happening, the TARP money is being made available and the populist government is naturally supporting a redistribution of wealth that makes sense. On Tuesday, JPM will be stating, if they comply with the court ordered proof of claims date, all the property for which they agreed to pay only 1.9 billion.
That public document will allow for all involved to make big stides forward on the settlement, stock swap, reversal or merger, all of which have no doubt been explored by parties on both sides. All IMHO.
Hot Sauce, When was this story published? TIA
Thanks Jackson. This is a once in a life time opportunity to discuss and learn about BK and corporate law. Once this is over ihub won't be the same for me. Other companies are not going to be as much "fun".
TWKGQ has been in limbo for years I read and there are still people dropping in and discussing it. I had no idea this whole community was here.
I often facilitate gold bullion deals and I can report that it's not only in corporate entities that major deceptions seem to be a force of habit.
It's going to take large losses of public embarrassment among more banking executives before that culture is retrained! lol
imho
The more I look at this brouhaha the simpler it looks but the waiting is difficult to deal with for those of us who could really use the money.
Fundamentally, the rule of law offers a framework within which WMI is very likely to benefit going forward and stock holders will receive reasonable value. The simple reason, though not directly intended to reward shareholders, is that BK law and Good Faith dealings both support an increase in the assessed value of each business division.
This is not an opinion. This is fact.
As Bopfan pointed out, BK law is ruthless about pursuing wrongfully seized or mistakenly seized property. If the BK law didn't have limits the risk of doing business at all would be too high! lol
Precedent on good faith judgments that support a fair price is easy to find, I'm sure.
Experienced accountants may be able to accurately figure the newly assessed values using public records and decide on a share price range. Share price is so subjective in this market but the assets are much easier to value, if not numerous.
I look forward to March 31st and the JPM proof of claims filing. Have a nice Sunday morning!
bopfan posted this at yahoo 3/27
"The unprecedented and extraordinary nature of this case and the likely financial recovery are what I have been trying to convey to this board since last fall. Bankruptcy law is ruthless about recovering improperly taken assets. Once you trigger the recovery rules the only thing that can prevent you from paying back what you've taken is your own bankruptcy where the assets have been dissipated. The FDIC has no legal protection and the financial backing of the U.S. government, therefore it will have to pay WMI either (1) the court assessed value of the seized assets or (2) some agreed settlement amount."
http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Business_%26_Finance/Investments/Stocks_(A_to_Z)/Stocks_W/threadview?bn=86316&tid=99790&mid=99880
I hope the president asked Dimon what he intends to do about the brouhaha brewing around the Washington Mutual bank seizure. IMHO the president, and possibly one or more of his advisers instructed Mr. Dimon to settle up soon with as little damage to the FDIC as possible. If JPM is going to absorb the costs they may simply pay more and swap shares.
The recent law firm invoices Jackson has posted are particularly comforting reading for me. The descriptions of the time charges indicate a great deal of activity and even settlement talks.
http://www.live-pr.com/en/washington-mutual-investors-have-initiated-
r1048224409.htm
This link explains why WMI will likely be respected by the court as they try to get damages and rights to their property.
Posted by: W3Research Date: Saturday, November 15, 2008 6:50:59 PM
In reply to: None Post # of 40880 [Send a link via email]
WAMUQ: WASHINGTON MUTUAL, INC. DIRECT AND INDIRECT SUBSIDIARIES ...
Chapter 11 Filing said they had $32Bil
in Assets and this looks good to me ...
WASHINGTON MUTUAL, INC. DIRECT AND INDIRECT SUBSIDIARIES
110 East 42nd Operating Company, Inc.
620-622 Pellhamdale Avenue Owners Corporation
Accord Realty Management Corporation
ACD2
ACD3
ACD4
Ahmanson Developments, Inc.
Ahmanson GGC LLC
Ahmanson Insurance, Inc.
Ahmanson Land Company
Ahmanson Marketing, Inc.
Ahmanson Obligation Company
Ahmanson Residential 2
Ahmanson Residential Development
Bryant Financial Corporation
California Reconveyance Company
CCB Capital Trust IV
CCB Capital Trust IX
CCB Capital Trust V
CCB Capital Trust VI
CCB Capital Trust VII
CCB Capital Trust VIII
Clayton Blackbear, Inc.
Commercial Loan Partners L.P.
CRP Properties, Inc.
Dime Capital Partners, Inc.
Dime Commercial Corp.
Dime CRE, Inc.
Dime Mortgage of New Jersey, Inc.
ECP Properties, Inc.
The E-F Battery Accord Corporation
F.C. LTD.
FA California Aircraft Holding Corporation
FA Out-of-State Holdings, Inc.
Flower Street Corporation
Great Western FS Corporation
Great Western Service Corporation Two
H.F. Ahmanson & Company
H.S. Loan Corporation
Harmony Agency, Inc.
HCP Properties Holdings, Inc.
HCP Properties, Inc.
HFC Capital Trust I
HHP Investment, LLC
HMP Properties, Inc.
Home Crest Insurance Services, Inc.
HS Loan Partners LLC
Irvine Corporate Center, Inc.
Ladue Service Corporation
Long Beach Securities Corp.
Marion Insurance Company, Inc.
Marion Street, Inc.
Mid Country Inc.
Murphy Favre Housing Managers, Inc.
Murphy Favre Properties, Inc.
NAMCO Securities Corp.
Nickel Purchasing Company, Inc.
Norstar Mortgage Corp.
North Properties, Inc.
Pacific Centre Associates LLC
Pacoima Investment Fund LLC
PCA Asset Holdings LLC
Pike Street Holdings, Inc.
Plainview Inn, Inc.
Providian Bancorp Services
Providian Leasing Corporation
Providian Mauritius Investments LTD
Providian Services Corporation
Providian Services LLC
Providian Technology Services Private Limited
Reverse Exchange Corporation
Rivergrade Investment Corp.
Riverpoint Associates
Robena Feedstock LLC
Robena LLC
Savings of America, Inc.
Seafair Securities Holdings Corp.
Second and Union LLC
Seneca Funding (UK) Limited
Seneca Funding LLC
Seneca Funding Management LLC
Seneca Funding Trust
Seneca Holdings, Inc.
Seneca Newco LLC
Seneca Street, Inc.
Sivage Financial Services LLC
Snohomish Asset Holdings LLC
SoundBay Leasing LLC
Stockton Plaza, Incorporated
Strand Capital LLC
Sutter Bay Associates LLC
Sutter Bay Corporation
Thackeray Funding Corp.
Thackeray Funding Partners
Thackeray Holdings Corp.
University Street, Inc.
WaMu 1031 Exchange
WaMu Asset Acceptance Corp.
WaMu Capital Corp.
WaMu Insurance Services, Inc.
WaMu Investments, Inc.
Washington Mutual Asset Securities Corp.
Washington Mutual Bank
Washington Mutual Bank fsb
Washington Mutual Brokerage Holdings, Inc.
Washington Mutual Capital Trust 2001
Washington Mutual Community Development, Inc.
Washington Mutual Finance Group LLC
Washington Mutual Life Insurance Company of California, a Stock
Insurer
Washington Mutual Mortgage Securities Corp.
Washington Mutual Preferred Funding LLC
Washington Mutual Trade Service Limited
Washington Mutual-Seattle Art Museum Project Owners Association
Western Service Co.
WM Aircraft Holdings LLC
WM Asset Holdings Corp.
WM Citation Holdings, LLC
WM Enterprises & Holdings, Inc.
WM Funds Disbursements, Inc.
WM Marion Holdings LLC
WM Mortgage Reinsurance Company, Inc.
WM Specialty Mortgage LLC
WM Winslow Funding LLC
WMB St. Helens LLC
WMBFA Insurance Agency, Inc.
WMFS Insurance Services, Inc.
WMGW Delaware Holdings LLC
WMHFA Delaware Holdings LLC
WMI Investment Corp.
WMI Rainier LLC
WMICC Delaware Holdings LLC
WMRP Delaware Holdings LLC
Yellowstone Venture, Inc.
W3Research
Raleigh, N.C.
Posted by: mikepgator Date: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 12:04:40 PM
In reply to: None Post # of 44662 [Send a link via email]
Nice post from Yahoo:
The WMI Operating Report (filed under docket No. 369 on 12/1/08) has some
interesting information. This is the first operating report filed and covers
the period from 9/26/08 to 10/31/08.
1) The actual cash on deposit at JPM on 9/26/08 was $3.7 billion.
2) Their total cash on 10/31/08 was $4.3 billion which includes the $3.7
billion plus $250 million in tax refunds and $320 million in short term
securities as well some other nickels and dimes.
3) There was $5 million in interest and investment returns during the month.
4) WAMUQ earned $10.2 million from subsidiary earnings during the month. WMI
Investments earned $1.3 million from 'securities' during that time.
5) There were $4.9 million in professional fees accrued during the period.
6) The balance sheet shows $8.3 billion in liabilities and $8.7 billion in
assets. However, $550 million of the liabilities is for accrued taxes payable
which would be expected to be refunded, assuming it is income taxes. Therefore,
it looks like, just on this information, that there is at least $950 million
available now for preferred stockholders after all creditors and notes are paid
off. If the NOL is determined to have some value, that money would go directly
first to the preferred ($2 billion more) and then all of the remainder to
common stockholders. Since there is apparently a potential tax refund of $2
billion due just from the NOL, it looks to be very likely that there will
eventually be some cash for the common stockholders, even if there are no
successful lawsuit awards, buyouts, or acquisitions.
I am not sure if all of the assets are listed on the balance sheet. I expect
that the asset list provided on December 19 will have other assets listed. The
bottom line is that WAMUQ looks to be far more liquid than the 'normal'
bankrupt company
Lawrence, You make a good point; instituting forced community service is the beginning of a community service corp or "army".
I was forced to choose between being a tyrant or leaving television production because I didn't want another producer to put gratuitous drivel on TV.
I chose to allow the gratuitous drivel rather than fight.
On the other hand, we can create a community service corp and heartily encourage parents to put their underage children in it.
This is responsible parenting and good government, imho.
Of course, there will be ways to not participate and if one doesn't partticpate on loose out on the experience and specific benefits or awards from the government.
Government is not a bad thing. We depend on it for everything from child care to electricity to trash hauling.
You know that. Anyway... Later
The Mr. Frank mentioned in this invoice may be Barney Frank since he is the chair of the Congressional Finance Committee.
God helps those who help one another dunce!
Don, YOu are missing the whole point of the new budget.
You really are. The logic is simple:
We can't afford not to spend money on the most impoverished, they are pulling the whole thing down. We need to get the poorest people and the middle class on their feet so they can show up for work with a full stomach and something to look forward to. This is WAR on Poverty not war on drugs, war on sex, war on condoms, war on gays, war on muslims, or whatever.
Read some philosophy.
Or just get in touch with reality. The meek inherit the earth because other guys killed each other off fighting over food and water.
I agree.
Here's the website of the guy who called the credit crisis a year before we admitted it. www.europac.net
Look him up on Yahoo and watch the a holes slam him only a year or so ago.