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Sure I can, it has been 7 years and how much are your escrow markers worth.
As time goes on, more is being reported on how jpm commingled all those wonderful wamu holding company assets and they can not be easily traced.
Why no lawsuit filed with huge damage claims that benefit escrow holders. You would think that susman would have filed suit on escrows behalf.
How much clearer does it have to get.
Please don't say until fdick is released because it will be 10 years before that happens.
all imo
YES HE WILL, STOCKS, BEST POST OF THE DAY
susman is your typical lawyer looking to maximize his billing hour paycheck. susman sold out, plain and simple. once the judge figured out the hedgie scam it gave susman a little leverage to make the deal that rosen would agree to. the escrows were a standard ploy to get us frothing at the mouth looking for a big payday. I know how most were thinking back then and to a degree so was I. bottom line, the escrows were the carrot to get the bk finalized.
WHERE I HAVE ALWAYS DISAGREED WITH THE ESCROW DD'ERS IS THAT I KNOW IT WILL TAKE A MAJOR LAWSUIT TO BE FILED ON OUR BEHALF TO GET A PENNY BACK AND AFTER 7 YEARS, NONE FILED, THIS IS NOT GOOD FOR AN ESCROW PAYDAY.
How many times in bk do shareholders survive, not very often and getting wmih shares and escrow markers pushed it over the top.
All attorneys want to do is compromise in these types of situations so to make everyone happy.
Susman used the escrow as a hook knowing that at most, a pittance would come back to escrow holders.
What have we seen so far, nothing, why, because the fix was in as soon as we signed the releases.
The truth is slowly coming out, read wamu's latest post and follow the link, that dude is getting close to what is happening or happened.
BOTTOM LINE, COMMINGLED AND NO LAWSUITS FILED SO NO RETURN FOR ESCROWS.
all imo
This is a must read for all the escrow dd'ers who think 10s of billions are still coming back to escrows. Focus on COMMINGLED AND WHY NO LAWSUITS.
It stinks but this is exactly why escrows will remain out of the money.
Am I gloating, absofinglutely not, it is disgusting how jpm gets away with murder.
all imo
bban, I respect your opinion. I just look at the examiners report as another nail in escrows coffin.
it's been 7 years, and not a peep out of anybody, that is very unusual unless some how some way, tepper and bonderman were made whole.
one more point on the subject, and I will go out on a limb here.
when all the chit was hitting the fan in 08, the one that got screwed the most was the chinese government. Probably a few of you now what I am talking about but most don't so I will briefly explain. China was buying up 95% of all the collateralized debt that was rated triple A, and all the big banks and investment entities like goldman, stern, lehman, jpm, citi, bofa etc.. were selling all the junk to china after standard and poors rated the synthetics triple A.
Once china figured out they were the real ponzi's they threatened the U.S. hard that they would devalue the U.S. dollar into the ground if they were not paid back and after 2 weeks or so all the threats went away. Rumor has it, the feds paid off all the bond offering at face plus interest to china ALL OFF BOOK. China never again mentioned the devaluing the dollar but now 7 years later china is cutting their own deals with other countries and not using the u.s. dollar as the trading currency. This is one of the hidden side effects caused by the jpm ect.. that will continue to hurt everyone in the u.s. for years to come.
I am not pro china in an means, I mean screwed in magnitude of how much they had invested in u.s. treasuries. you folks know how much I dislike the practices of jpm, my feelings for china and their currency manipulation and how they treat their people is even more disgusting.
all imo
look it up, i did not change one word of the quote, sheesh.
if you are right, which i doubt, but just in case, what you are saying it that the fdick-r is not in compliance with their own fiduciary responsibility which is to expedite the payment of the debts of the estate.
all this off book talk is hilarious. the speculation of some escrow dd'ers is interesting and if the playing field were even, would have merit, it's just that jpm has the power, and the legal experience to take almost any distressed assets and slice, dice, launder, wash, steal, give away, sell and commingle any asset to make it seem as it has always been theirs. it's part of jpm's business model, lol.
all imo
because I have escrows and also have a relatively large position in wmih and since I trade commodity options once I have my positions loaded I have to watch the charts so it gives me time to be here.
I have given up on my escrows but surely not on my position in wmih, I have done my dd, and if kkr does not sell shareholders out I am expecting big things from wmih over the next 3-5 years. I am looking for my 71 cent cost basis shares to be worth over 20 bucks per share. that's why i am here.
not for some escrow dreams
all imo
can someone confirm that the 1k face p's sold for under one dollar. I don't think that is right?
thx
I'm talking about the 1k p's
not for p's
spider, what is teppers cost basis for his p's, do you or anyone else have an idea.
thx
yes, tpg, you are right, it's bonderman
you have to be kidding me, tepper was ranked as the worst investor of the year when he lost 8 billion in wamu in 8 months. if he was going to sue he would have years ago. my thought is he was taken care of some way some how, off book maybe, lol.
yes, he has deep pockets but is silence has always puzzled me, he never said one word and that blows my mind considering he was/is a laughing stock, undeservedly I should say.
I was waiting for him to testify next to killinger at the hearings but they never called on him, ask yourself why.
all imo
More private messages, let me summarize. I hope I cover all the questions.
1. jpm is known for stealing distressed property once it hits their bank or at least they try hard. The best example is one I was directly involved in when I was a commodity broker with about 20% of my clients clearing through a company called pfg. If you are on this board you should know what client segregated funds are. The bottom line is that once pfg declared bankruptcy jpm would not release the client segregated funds for a very long time, until the pfg trustee threatened jpm to release them. It was a paltry 250 million in client funds. There are many other examples, look them up. Bottom line, if their is a distressed situation you are involved in, I hope you don't have your money in jpm banks, because you will possibly have to sue them to get that money back. Maybe they stopped this practice but I doubt it.
2. So, move forward to wamu holding and the financial crisis that jpm was key in creating. You have to admit that wamu holding is about as distressed as it gets, and you know that the fdick-r turned all the holding company books over to jpm and you know that jpm has had those assets for 7 years and you know that jpm came out with a pr finding 30 billion in the wamu rubble and you know that in the pr, it stated that jpm was buying and selling commercial paper from/to many institutions and thus all the commercial paper of wamu holding is now commingled with all their other commercial paper assets thus they can not be traced especially when no one is looking for them and you know that escrows have not received one penny to date and you know that susman is not billing wamu and susman was released as representation for share holders, and you know that fdick-r has stated that they have only 2.75 billion and have the db lawsuit of over 6 billion hanging over their heads and you know that jpm filed about 50 lawsuits against fdick-r regarding responsibility for wamu liabilities and you know that fdick-r has said that jr's and share holders are not going to receive any monies. HOW MUCH CLEARER CAN IT GET PEEPS, YES, WAMU HOLDING HAD ASSETS BUT THEY ARE NOW LONG GONE. NO LAWSUIT WITH A SMOKING GUN AND HUGE DAMAGE CLAIMS AGAINST JPM NOT POSSIBILITY FOR ESCROWS TO MAKE MORE THAN A PITTANCE.
Keep dreaming of escrow riches and you will be very disappointed, on the other hand, if kkr is true to form and does not sell out share holders, their is a good likelihood that you will make bank in wmih, the lower your cost basis the more bank you will make.
3.My experience with kkr to date as been good and I made money with them but and it's a big but, that was before they lost 5 billion on an oil play and was fined by the sec.
I'm holding strong just not as strong as before, one key event was the move to naz. The next key is the first acquisition, once that happens we are golden. Once that first acquisition happens then I will go even larger into wmih.
Lastly, the acquisition will have nothing to do with wamu holding legacy assets, that is a very naive thought process.
Hope that answers the pm questions.
all imo
who knows for sure, but let me list a couple possible reasons.
1. rosen and susman, told the hedgeies there is more value in wmih and the nols vs any possible recovery from the estate.
2. rosen and susman told them that who knows your escrows may make you rich.
2. the hedgies were to stupid to understand how jpm plays their games.
I think that the hedgies thought their escrows were going to have a lot of value but did NOT UNDERSTAND THE ABILITY OF JPM TO SLICE, DICE, LAUNDER, WASH, HIDE, STEAL, GIVE AWAY AND COMMINGLE THE WAMU HOLDING COMPANY ASSETS TO MAKE THEM DISAPPEAR.
by the way, what claims could they hedgies have filed that would not get thrown out.
all imo
conti, it is now well known who orchestrated the wamu seizure, it was hanky panky paulson, bair was a puppet. the way the story is rumored to have played out is as follows.
In the early summer of 08, the chit was starting to hit the fan, primarily in the credit markets, everyone thinks it was the stock market, no, the credit markets started to freeze up. because of so much distrust between all the big banks because they all knew each other were playing the synthetic cdo ponzi game.
The banks knew but the feds did not know what was going on at the time. paulson went to blankfien at goldman in early summer and asked him directly what was going on, and blankfien played dumb. a couple of months pass and things start to get worse, again, paulson went to blankfien and asked him what the f was going on, blankfien confessed that they and all the other banks were caught in a synthetic cdo death spiral. blankfien then said goldman was insured through aig as were the others. so, as far as paulson was concerned he had to bail out aig or all of the big banks were going under.
At some point, he met with the snake oil salesman, jamie dimon. paulson told dimon you are going to get bailed out by aig, how much insurance coverage do you have, jamie boy had to tell paulson, none, they were self insured on all their synthetic cdo's. so, the aig bail out would not save jpm, but dimon had a plan, the plan was to talk paulson into seizing wamu to save jpm. so paulson went to bair and told her to immediately sell wamu to jpm........... the rest is history. I wish I was a fly on the wall when dimon sold paulson on seizing wamu, how many lies dimon told paulson about wamu financial weaknesses.
if jpm was not so well connected, and had to be saved in paulsons eyes for the benefit of the country, the exact opposite should have happened and jpm should have been seized by wamu because wamu was in stronger financial shape because they had zero, yes, zero, yes zero synthetic cdo exposure.
Rotella wrote that in a letter to the feds right before the seizure but it fell on deaf ears. the feds didn't care and I truly believe that the TO CLUBISH TO FAIL WAS PART OF THE REASON THAT WAMU WAS TAKEN OUT TO SAVE JPM, WAMU HAD NO ONE TALKING WITH PAULSON TELLING PAULSON THE TRUTH. that's where wamu execs went wrong, they were not strong enough or connected enough to get to paulson and tell him jpm should be seized and sold to wamu.
What makes me sick is not one wamu exec has spilled the true facts after the seizure, they were way to cowardly and of course wanted to cover their azz. killinger did make the statement 'to clubish to fail' but that was it. none of them had the balz to tell the true story.
here is my speculation, all the wamu big shots were either trying to save their reputations, or silenced because of fed threats of lawsuits or they needed jobs so they knew they had to keep quiet. YOU GUYS DO KNOW IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE SEIZURE THE WAMU EXEC RESPONSIBLE FOR COMMERCIAL PAPER WAS HIRED BY JPM. Are any of you surprised that the first pr that cave out is the 30 billion in the wamu ruble pr. The commercial paper guy from wamu who then went to work for jpm must have done a heck of a job finding all those commercial paper wamu holding company assets and commingling them to turn them into jpm's. I wonder what kind of bonus that dude made.
wamu execs are the biggest cowards around, killinger, rotella and many others could have gone against jpm and told the truth and could now be fighting for wamu holding company assets but they went a runnin from big bad jpm.
is all of this true, i can't be sure but what I have pieced together from reading all the financial crisis spin over the years, this makes a heck of a lot of sense.
ps, I wonder if this post gets deleted like many of my others that call jpm out. if so, one of the moderators is a jpm mole deleting messages, lol.
all imo
ranger, of course, they were actually approved to join naz as an m&a company. I am all in for now and still bullish, but I am concerned about kkr and if they are really looking out for wmih shareholder interests.
Why this long for their first deal, optimistically because they are waiting for a great acquisition candidate.
all imo
great post gold,
Like I have been saying since day one, it's how banks like jpm work, they steal from distressed entities all the time. When I originally said that, so many on this board thought I was nuts. Based on pm's I have received many more are coming to the same conclusion. JPM is the most corrupt large bank out there.
The reason I bought a chunk in bk is because I knew jpm would pull their scam but I also thought there was enough of a paper trial that wamu holding had substantial assets that through a LAWSUIT ASSETS WOULD COME BACK OUR WAY.
Why no lawsuit, there can be only one reason, everyone with deep enough pockets is scared to go up against jpm or they were paid off some way some how by jpm or there is nothing there (which I doubt).
When all this came up I contacted a friend of mine that is partners in a very influential law firm and laid out the entire situation to him in writing. I laid out how his firm could make a ton of money should wamu holding have enough assets that it would be worthwhile for his firm to pursue under some type of contingency agreement with bond holders and share holders.
He understood exactly what I was talking about and did not question the accuracy of my speculation regarding the wamu theft.
His comment to me was that in no way could his firm get involved in anything like this because of their business relationship with jpm.
That may be what has happened across the board with any of the hedgies trying to get representation. We don't have a prayer unless a lawsuit is filed and not only filed, filed by a top 10 law firm that would be willing to go after the almighty jpm. None will because all of them have relationships with jpm.
For us little guys, we are sitting ducks and jpm knows we don't have the means to organize and pay for a lawsuit against jpm even though I think I could put together 2/3rds of the suit myself based on fraudulent conveyance. The piece missing is potential damages based on holding company assets.
Anyone who has the time and effort could file suit if it's worth their time and effort but think of why that rarely happens from former share holders and jpm knows this and that is why they always win. Game over for escrows.
WMIH is the potential game changer not escrow markers.
all imo
easy, they did not think filing a claim would pay off thus they thought that getting stock in wmih and the nol's was the best shot. they also were probably greedy and were sucked in to the potential of the escrow shares. basically, the were fodder in the hands of rosen. On top of that, who knows what jpm told them off the record about future opportunities. Please don't say that would never happen, jpm could get into trouble, not even close, jpm does that kind of chit all the time. they use their power, connections and size to get most to play by their rules.
all imo
nurse, I'm getting a little more suspicious as well on what is really going on, not about escrows, those are toast but about wmih. with 600 million in the bank and supposed leveraged buyout experts on our side, you would think a deal would be done, maybe get your feet wet with a small 500 mil rev company and 100 mil in earnings, 10 of those deals are out there now unfortunately when I look at them most are privately held and thus harder to close with leverage so maybe that is why it's taking so long. My gut says kkr if legit is looking for a publicly traded distressed assets that is forced to be acquired because of either legal issues or something really negative happened to them to drive down their value.
just thinken out loud, kkr lost 5 billion in an oil play this year, with how distressed that industry is, maybe they should take another shot at it in oil. I don't think there are any restrictions on what industry the company is acquired is there. I know it makes more sense to acquire a banking or finance or insurance entity but why. A good deal with good management you can trust would work just fine.
all imo
ridiculous post, wow, not even close, lol
green, based on what your message stated is exactly why escrow is screwed. susman was out lawyered or sold us out. We got escrows to sign the releases and a little wmih stock and jpm got 7 years and counting to slice, dice, launder, wash, steal, sell, give away and COMMINGLE all the wamu holding company assets so it looks like very little did exist.
It's a little to late for a real law firm to find 1/10th of the wamu holding company assets, it's been too long.
all imo
duper, what she went through should be illegal in and of itself. I wish she would file a defamation suit against jpm. She should also get with the other whistleblowers that have yet to be paid by the feds. The feds are so full of chit, the say the want transparency and honesty in gov, lol, but when someone sticks their whole careers on trying to write these wrongs, the feds hassle the heck out of them.
She should write a definitive book on what happened at jpm and not sell out like kristen grind did. But then again, rumor had it that kristen got a 450k advance and a guaranteed job at wsj for keeping her mouth shut and writing a joke of a book on what happened at wamu.
all imo
good post!
ok, i heard about the woman you are talking about, jpm also ruined her life if I remember the story correctly. she was deposed once and did spill a lot of dirt but has not been heard from since.
Now I recall, she was a whistleblower and the article I read describe why the feds have not been truthful and rarely compensate whistle blowers, they always come up with reasons not to pay.
all imo
didn't know that, that is one of the reasons it's going to be tough for escrows without a lawsuit being filed. Why none filed is a surprise to me unless as some have suggested tps was already paid off not to sue and open up the fraud.
all imo
sure they are, jpm managed the wamu holding company assets so nicely and with such good care because they wanted to put a nice neat package together for 151 billion and turn it over to fdick-r all off book, because they are such nice guys at jpm.
Rumor has it, that jpm is going to throw wamu escrow holders a party as soon as fdick-r turns over the money to escrows.
how naive, wow.
all imo
rockie, you know how much I despise dimon but he is as good as it gets regarding being a dishonest, well funded, well connected, banking giant.
That why no lawsuits. dimon will bury this for 15 years if a lawsuit is filed unless there is a smoking gun so big that jpm has to cave. Unfortunately I doubt it. Think about wamu execs at any level, not one, over the past 7 years has gone public. ask yourself why.
THE WAMU COMMERCIAL LOAN DIRECTOR IMMEDIATELY WENT TO WORK FOR JPM AND A HUGE SALARY AND COMPENSATION PACKAGE AND PROBABLY WAS ONE OF THE ORCHESTRATORS OF STEALING THE COMMERCIAL PAPER FROM WAMU HOLDING. 30 BILLION WORTH.
Not one wamu former exec has the balz or the financial security to come forward, so so sad.
This is how jpm gets away with all the shenanigans they do.
all imo
trainer, so what if we hit the 2 teens like you say. until a acquisition is made the low volume speculation will move share price but a huge take down is not in the cards,huge to me is in the 1.80s, why, they have all that cash. should kkr and citi pull the cash we are fd.
all imo
spider, this is a very good and balanced post. I just don't think the assets are in the hands of fdick-r but let's say you are right and the feds are looking at a windfall of billions, what do you think they will do, gladly turn them over or justify why they belong to the feds or jpm.
this is unfortunately the reality at this time.
If that much money is there and the claims are much less they would have started to turn over some of the money above liability claims. Please don't say they don't know the liability yet so they can't turn over anything, that is hogwash if the numbers are what some of you think they are.
again, spider, good balance post.
all imo
fortune, agreed but what has changed,nothing. NO LAWSUIT TRYING TO GET THE BOOKS TURNED OVER, NO LAWSUIT SHOWING FRAUDULENT CONVEYANCE, NO LAWSUIT SHOWING ANY DAMAGES TO ESCROW HOLDERS AND JR'S.
What does that mean: It is a license for jpm to steal all the assets of the holding company whatever they are and in whatever dollar amount. This is what so many on this board don't get.
I think the escrow dd'ers are just to nice and can't think like the crooks at jpm think. Let me put a scenario together for you and tell me what you would do.
Let's say, you were a big bank like jpm and you were handed a gift of a bank for pennies on the dollar and then you were also given access to assets that may or may not belong to you and no one is looking for them. Then you have seven years to figure out how to make your bank stronger and have 7 years to figure out how to make those assets your own.
Do you turn over the assets or do you talk with your bean counters, and lawyers and figure out how to secretly steal those assets and come up with a game plan to justify your actions should you get caught. If you had 1, 10, 100 billion staring you in the face what do you think you would do if no one was looking for those assets. Do you have your best attorneys come up with an rationale why those assets are yours or do you turn them over. Do you have your attorneys play chess and come up with defenses should you get sued or do you just turn the assets over.
Would you turn them over or would you justify why they belong to you and fight till the end to hold on to them, should you get caught, which after 7 years they haven't gotten caught so now they may feel they are in the clear, thus the 30 billion in the wamu ruble pr.
If you say you would turn them over then you are way to honest to be a banker, lol.
all imo
thanks for your assistance, appreciate it. it seems you are very knowledgeable regarding wamu and what happened.
Do you think escrows will ever see any money and if so, how much and when. Just looking for your opinion.
thanks Vince, were piers paid about 875 million to date, just curious.
thx
claw, thx, I did, not many posts but I guess I will check it once in awhile maybe someone has the record.
thx again
can someone show me where it states that piers have been paid approximately 875 million so far and are only owed about 50 million. i would appreciate it, thx
Let me take a shot at trying to get you to understand a little better. My response in bold.
A. The examiner was in play BEFORE mediation, and before equity was in the loop. So before insider trading was a colorable claim against the Hedgies.
READ THE EXAMINERS REPORT, THEY RELY HEAVILY ON INFORMATION PROVIDED TO THEM FROM THE EQUITY COMMITTEE. IT SAYS IT BLACK AND WHITE IN THE REPORT.
B. The examiner did not and could not review the EXTENSIVE loan file of the Debtors per his own rapport. Any scenario made up by him doesn't include anything that wasn't reviewed. Loan file was not reviewed. So the scenario's where he is talking about has ZERO value. Nada. Zilch.
WAMU MAY HAVE HAD A LOAN PORTFOLIO OF SUBSTANCE BUT IT IS MORE THAN LIKELY ALL GONE, BEING SLICED, DICED, LAUNDERED, WASHED, STOLE, GIVEN AWAY, AND COMMINGLED, ALL TO PREVENT ANYONE FROM TRACING IT BACK TO WAMU HOLDING. NO LAWSUIT STATING DIFFERENTLY, NO OPPORTUNITY TO GET ANYTHING BACK.
C. The examiner's report was discarded by Walrath.
I DON'T RECALL THE EXAMINERS REPORT BEING DISCARDED BY WALRATH, WHAT I DO RECALL IS THAT WE WERE FORTUNATE THAT SHE FIGURED OUT THAT THE HEDGIES AND ROSEN WERE NOT PLAYING FAIR AND PUT HER FOOT DOWN. THAT IS HOW WE GOT SHARES IN WHIM AND THE WORTHLESS ESCROWS. YOU HAVE TO ADMIT AT THIS POINT AFTER 7 YEARS, NOT ONE CENT HAS BEEN RETURNED TO ESCROWS AND THE FDICK-R HAS STATED THERE IS NOT ENOUGH MONEY TO WATERFALL TO SHAREHOLDERS OR JR'S. FACT.
After thinking through all of this again after my reread of the examiners report weather accurate or not, it gives jpm political cover to steal everything and fdick-r as well has political cover to let jpm do what they want. If jpm tells fdick-r that there were no real holding company assets because the books were commingled fdick-r will listen to jpm and the examiners report backs that up. So knowing this, why do you think escrows will see one penny, why, it makes no sense. jpm got everything and has had 7 years, the best bean counters, the best attorneys helping with the theft. So again, who is helping us escrow holders to get anything back. CAN YOU SAY NO ONE, IF THEY WERE A LAWSUIT WOULD HAVE BEEN FILED. IT'S THE AMERICAN WAY.
Some of you actually think jpm has been stewarding these billions of wamu holding company assets, one of the most ridiculous things the escrow dd'ers have said. Also, regarding fdick turning over the holding company books to jpm, that was so stupid and it would make fdick look even more stupid if holding company monies were found, don't you think. It's all about covering your azzzzz 7 years after the fact and no one cares.
all imo
1,2,3, are you sure piers are only owed about 50 million. can someone show me where they have been paid about 875 million already.
thx in advance.
laughable, just plain laughable.
Like I said in a previous post, JPM does not turn anything of substance over to anyone under distressed circumstances unless A LAWSUIT IF FILED AGAINST THEM. Not one suit filed to support escrows, why. Because just as the examiner said any lawsuit would be frivolous because there is no money.
The trustee said there is no money.
The fdick-r says there is no money other than the 2.75 bil they have and shareholders are out of the money, their words not mine.
So far, escrows have gotten nothing.
The only future we have that relates to wamu (indirectly) is the potential in wmih. BUT THEY NEED TO GET THEIR ACT TOGETHER AND MAKE THE FIRST ACQUISITION. kkr don't fck this up.
all imo
what you say makes sense except for one thing, what company in their right mind would rather take an attorneys word , ie, susman, hoping that a huge windfall would come from escrows vs filing a claim for what 8 billion if money was coming back to the estate. I think they thought getting shares in wmih was their best hope. They have waited 7 years and what's his name from tps was listed as the worst investor in the world for losing 8 billion in a few months, he was a laughing stock. Do you think that they are just biding their time waiting for all this to pay off for them. I doubt it.
all imo