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dragoon, I can pretty much guarantee that I have more markers then you do. I am also just sick and tired of the dreamers who think they will be millionaires on escrow shares alone and have taken over this board. Instead of talking the future of wmi, all you guys want to do is speculate how many billions are coming to escrows and all I'm doing is being pragmatic in explaining why you need to better understand that the likelihood of you seeing the money you are dreaming about is slim and none. But if you put your money in wmi, in a few years you could have a 20 bagger. Dream or take action, dragoon.
prim, nice read, so what does this have to do with escrows. It sucks that jpm stole wamu, which they absolutely did. JPM would have had to have the government directly bail them out for over 100 billion if not for jamie, snake oil salesman, dimon having luckily already analyzed wamu and knew they had a ton of cash. He talked paulson into seizing wamu to save jpm from bk. All that said and done, as wrong as it was, it will not benefit escrows, why, because the assets have been sliced, diced, laundered. As much as I hate to say it, there probably has been collusion between the feds and jpm to cover the theft up. This is why I don't think escrows will get anything substantial. FDIC and JPM are just way to connected politically to have any dirt come out, thus assets gone, escrows screwed. all in my opinion.
One last point. There is no doubt in my mind that rosencrap lied to the judge on more than one occasion. He should be disbarred but looks like he is getting paid very well to keep the lie going. all in my opinion.
I agree, once kristen grind took the bribe, no one was going to touch it back then. But with new money going to old share holders, the press would jump at it.
I don't know how much grind pocketed as an advance but my gut says jpm was behind it all. She took the money and ran. all in my opinion and mine alone
I'm very familiar with the kmart story, I went long after the restructure exactly how I'm going long with wmih now.
I recommend to you not to bring up a bk situation that you are not familiar with and trying to compare it to wamu/wmih.
I am calling you on your b.s.. Common shares of kmart were cancelled and share holders of the bk company received nada, nothing. Those that made money are those that went long when lampert took over. Common shareholders of the bk kmart were screwed because the stupid judge would not allow a true equity committee at the table to prove that the real estate was under valued by 10x. Also, the judge was a wac job and told the court that he wanted this out of his court in a year and thus the restructure took no time at all. What lampert did was get the real estate fair valued and levered that to buy sears holding and the rest is history.
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A: Many individual investors are understandably upset about Kmart.
For those of you who missed the drama, here's what happened: The discount retailer fell on very hard times. Not only were the company's financials eroding due to competition with Wal-Mart and Target, but alleged fraud by the management team also put the company in a bind. As a result, Kmart entered Chapter 11 in 2002. It emerged from bankruptcy protection in 2003.
And it has been a very different company since then. Kmart was able to shed its detrimental loan agreements. It also emerged with a savvy new management team that knew how to extract value from the battered brand.
But as part of the restructuring, Kmart also cancelled its common stock. Shares of the old Kmart under the symbol KM expired with no value on May 6, 2003. This is actually a pretty common event when companies enter bankruptcy protection. Remember, as an owner of common stock, you are last in line for remaining assets in case of a default or other business failure.
But what makes this situation so difficult for owners of the old Kmart stock to handle is that the new Kmart then issued new stock under the name Kmart Holding, trading under the symbol KMRT. Shares of this new stock did extraordinarily well, gaining 26% this year. And get this: The stock gained more than 250% in just one year! Now the stock is under the symbol SHLD after the merger with Sears.
Some investors may feel cheated. But it's important to realize the Kmart stock that's trading so well today isn't the same one that crashed. It's essentially a new company that has retained the old name. Once again, it's an important tale that reminds investors the importance of dumping shares before losses exceed 10% of the purchase price. Doing that with Kmart could have saved investors from a complete loss.
what can not or will not happen is for jpm and the fdic to fess up that there are measurable assets coming back to escrow. Even if as little as a 100 million came back, that would be big, big news that would hit the wires and reporters would be all over this digging deep to find out how the fdic and jpm hid millions of dollars. Rosencrap would be sued for continuing to say there is no money for share holders and thus lying in court. They can not give any substantial monies back because if they did the house of cards would come crashing down on fdic, jpm, and rosencrap and his law firm.
He is in theory working for share holders and we know how well that has gone so far. If there is money, he would be caught lying in court. all in my opinion
that is a good point, if some very livid shareholder with deep pockets wanted to pursue a lawsuit against rosencrap he could get him disbarred if found he did what you alluded to.
large green, what actions against the fdic and jpm. what do you think would happen if no funds returned. I would have felt much better if we sued the fdic and jpm right away but no, that never happened. If there were more than 10 million the big player escrow holders would be all over this and they are not. Follow the money, it's been sliced and diced by jpm invisible to the fdic and it is long gone per gaap, legal, probably not, provable illegal, probably not. We lose, jpm wins and fdic turns a blind eye and lets it all happen.
Now for what is important, what will wmih, kkr, citi and blackstone do to make wmih a real winner. That is what I am interested in.
all in my opinion and mine alone
sure, the fdic will take care of jpm. remember, jpm is a fed reserve bank. yep, the fdic is losing sleep over how to return wamu holding company assets with no pressure through lawsuit by wmi or whomever. Come on, the big players who hold escrows would be all over this. imo
One question, can someone answer this. How many escrows does tpg, ie, bonderman hold. thx
sure the fdic will take care of jpm. remember, jpm is a fed reserve bank. yep, the fdic is losing sleep over how to return wamu holding company assets with no pressure through lawsuit by wmi or whomever. come on, the big players who hold escrows would be all over this. imo
I realize that there are assets missing, the question is dollar amount, you guys are saying 10s of billions and I'm saying a couple hundred million.
What gets me is that in any other bk I have ever been involved in which is many since I trade them when they hit the pinks, wamu the exception because I got caught with an overnight hold from the infamous wednesday to the infamous thursday seizure. Who the F thought they would seize on a Thursday.
Any way, my point is that in any bk the trustee documents and communicates monthly on assets and potential claw backs, nothing like that has occurred with wamu since day one. OK, lets say that the trustee did not know of the assets, which I doubt, then as you guys say they are in the hands of the fdic for years being managed by jpm, this is what many escrow future millionaires think, right. If that is the case, do you actually think jpm and the fdic are just going to say that ok boys it's time to turn these over to wamu, wmi, whatever. It is never going to happen.
So, the only way wmi ever gets their hands or even a peek at what is there is through a lawsuit against fdic and or jpm. Why has that not happened. Let's go one step further, lets say a lawsuit is filed by wmi against jpm and or fdic. This is right in jpm's wheel house and they will tie this up in court for 10-20 years and then settle with 10cents on the dollar and say, hmmm, I did not know that was not a bank assets.
Remember the good ole days of discovery and at the 11th hour jpm dumped 10s of thousands of useless docs on the wmi attorneys. What do you think they would do during this phase to tie this up for decades.
Lastly, I believe the dude that said, Willmingham said when the check comes from the fdic I will let you know, laughingly.
all in my opinion and mine alone
bban, The 10k absolutely have to list bank assets and holding company assets separately per gaap.
I don't think so, all this info should be in the wamu 10ks over the years, I would not be surprised if many longtime wamu share holders archived 10ks for decades, way before the seizure. Not one citing that shows the holding company had anywhere near the assets some of the escrow millionaires are talking about.
I don't think so, all this info should be in the wamu 10ks over the years, I would not be surprised if many longtime wamu share holders archeved 10ks from years and years before the seizure. Not on citing that shows the holding company had anywhere near the assets some of the escrow millionaires are saying
bban, you seem one of the most reasonable believers that escrows will make us all rich. During the day, I'm surprised many of you do not have copies of the 10ks showing what assets wmi actually had vs the bank. Or were all the holding company assets off book. Care to comment. thx
spider, were you at the meeting, thx
Actually, she's not going. I'm sure she has several people who will fill her in.
As I understand, the share holders meeting is not available via bridge line or tie line. I'm a bit surprised it's not available.
Per your post, I'm wondering if this same verbiage is in any cpmk filings. For those who think that cpmk is going to be acquired by wmih, why did they never up list.
Great post, thx
4. NASDAQ or NYSE Up listing. (This alone is huge)
SECTION 23. Listing. (a) The Corporation hereby covenants and agrees to use its reasonable efforts to list Common Stock on a national securities exchange after becoming eligible to do so and upon approval of the Board of Directors.
(b) The Corporation hereby covenants and agrees that, if at any time the Common Stock shall be listed or quoted, as applicable, on any national securities exchange, automated quotation system or other market, the Corporation shall, if permitted by the rules of such exchange, system or market, use reasonable efforts to list or quote and keep listed or quoted, as applicable, so long as the Common Stock shall be so listed or quoted, as applicable on such exchange, system or market, all shares of Common Stock issuable upon Mandatory Conversion of the Series B Preferred Stock, calculated using the then-applicable Floor Price; provided, however, that if the rules of such exchange, system or market permit the Corporation to defer the listing of such Common Stock until the first Mandatory Conversion of Series B Preferred Stock into Common Stock in accordance with the provisions hereof, the Corporation covenants to use reasonable efforts to list or quote, as applicable, such Common Stock issuable upon Mandatory Conversion of the Series B Preferred Stock if permitted by the rules of such exchange, system or market at such time.
Clawmann, read the post, that is what I said. Wmih will be complaint to higher exchange standards, is that clear enough for you. lol
You guys are right, and wmih will follow the sec rules but I do have to chuckle because for 99% of pink sheet stocks, there are no rules, lol
another great post, thx for posting W3
This post by fishinganddreaming for the other board is very enlightening. I was wondering where the shares were coming from to keep share price in check. Because it's a pink I thought the mm's were just naked shorting it. What fishin said makes more sense, kkr is working with the market makers to hold share price down, thus the borrowing of shares from kkr. Makes sense.
How do I get accepted for that other board, I tried but they never responded, they must not like me, lol
Of course, because they are a "den of thieves" they will all front-run each other on inside information and we will get clues from the stock price and volume. I'm already seeing big volumes every day, and CRTC and NITE (which I believe are wrking for KKR to hold the price down) run out of shares every day (you can see them getting overrun with buys all day until they have to raise the ask) and go back to KKR to ask for more shares. Less
did it say off balance sheet wamu assets or wmi assets or wamu bank assets or wamu holding company assets or some other derivative. thx
sorry dude, I own escrows, so show me where it says:
collections for wamu thx
diamond, I sure would like to see where it directly states:
"127 billion in off balance sheet collections regarding former WaMu."
JPM is a fed reserve bank that holds monies for other large institutions. With the new banking regs in place jpm decided to shed these funds and return them to the institutions because it was impacting their cap requirements.
Is the share holders meeting audio cast or web cast for our listening pleasure? thx
gary, I wish it were that simple but it's not. Those assets have been more than likely sliced, diced, gaap cleansed and gone. Is it fair, no, but that is how bk's work.
If there was a huge chunk of change the way you guys are talking don't you think that the big players that would benefit in the hundreds of millions or billions would be all over this, trying to identify, subpoena, sue, what ever to get their greedy little hands on those assets. Probably not, they will just sit back and be polite and wait their turn to recoup billions. I don't think so.
It is the trustees role to communicate and discuss in great detail what assets are there, what investigations are happening to claw back assets, what lawsuits the trustee has filed against, jpm, the fdic, the thrift, etc.. They can not withhold this type of info if they know assets are there, it's illegal.
What happens to folks, they let their lack of experience get in the way of reality. The game is not played on a level playing field in bk's and unfortunately share holders with escrows, including myself, were sacrificial lambs.
Yes, there is a little money there, otherwise sussman and team would not have structured the settlement the way they did.
There are about 10 of you posters/dreamers who continue to tout escrows and I'm just bored with it. Let's talk potential of wmih, m&a, deals kkr has done in the past, etc., that is what this board is supposed to be, it's not the escrow dreamers board.
imo
We definitely agree on the escrows. The dollar amounts some posters are talking are ridiculous. If people are made whole,that would be amazing. My thought is there is a couple hundred million that they may be able to pull from jpm and others greedy little hands all though that would be a surprise.
If there was big money we would have already heard about it. The fdic is not allowed to withhold this type of information.
If there was huge money, the lawsuits would be flying fast a furious.
imo
Nurse, have you been involved in any other investments or situations that went bk? It is the scummiest form of business out there. They are usually all scum, the lawyers, the bk'd bod, the creditors, those buying distressed debt. They are all the scum of the earth imo.
In wamu's case, it was same old, same old, you had Rosen, lying through his teeth in the court room, you had the old bod covering their ash, you had the feds totally freaking out that the world was ending and you had Jamie, snake oil salesman, Dimon lucking out that jpm did due diligence months earlier when they were originally trying to steal a solvent wamu.
In wamu's case, 2 events happened that are very, very, very unusual in BK's.
1. You had a persistent lady from Texas working her tail off to persuade a law firm to fight for share holders, I think her name is Dorothy and you had a twenty something trader stand up in court and persuade the judge that there was possible collusion, insider trading and fraud taking place under her watch. That's how share holders even got a shot.
So where are we now and what is possible. It all depends on the company bod led by the ceo, whose company or clients lost lots of money because of the wamu bk.
If he is on the up and up, he has the potential to grow a very successful company through m&a and other means. If he is only out for himself then current share holders and future share holders will get screwed. It all depends on him, period. He can use the nol's very successfully or pzzzz them away in under the table deals with kkr and citi.
What gives me the greatest degree of comfort is that as soon as the first deal happens, kkr/citi shares get converted to common, yes, huge dilution but then they are on our team and they have similar skin in the game at least for round one. I'm willing to see where it goes from there.
You no my thoughts on escrows, they would be gravy.
All my opinion and mine alone
bban, I think I live by your motto more than you do, at least the first part about staying grounded, I do expect something, just not the numbers you guys think.
"ALWAYS stay grounded and expect nothing and you'll be happy"
I said a few days ago, that I think p's will be made whole, so if you paid such and such for your p's that is what you will get back plus possibly interest. I said par but I meant be made whole.
Great explanation, thx for responding
For Preferred financing rounds, the Par Value for a series of preferred stock is usually set at the price paid per share in the financing round. In this case, the par value is specific to a single series of preferred, so if you issue multiple series (ie Series A, Series B, Series GG, etc.) each will have a different par value (unless two rounds are completed at the same price per share).
Escrows vs Company Potential
This board is a very interesting mix of dreamers vs those that are logical and rational. As an escrow holder I believe that escrows will get to par at some point and time and maybe an interest kicker for the many years of suffering. That is it, final, period.
I think the real profit is going to be made from the success of wmih and it's corporate structure, m&a activity and nol's. The company is currently valued at cash equivalent as it should be, with a seasoning of manipulation for big money acquirers of shares of wmih.
I realize we have all been waiting way to long for this to play out but in reality count your blessings that equity even survived which is rare for bk companies.
I'm continuing to buy shares as a long term investment. My continued involvement with wmih will be based on 6 factors.
1. At the share holders meeting the bod explains their game plan for share price appreciation.
2. Incorporation in Delaware
3. M&A activity within the next year
4. A move to a major exchange. (Not sure what makes sense from a corporate perspective. A move to a major exchange first or m&a first).
5. Much more detailed 10q and ks.
6. Execution of said plan.
If our ceo wants to grow a great company for himself, his investors (kkr and citi) and us the share holders we will be able to read the tea leaves very easily. If our ceo is a scum bucket we will see it sooner rather than later and I'm gone for good.
all in my opinion and mine alone
bban, i have not been following your accum/dist discussion. what are you getting your data from. thx
what shares are not supposed to be traded? if you are talking escrows being used as shares, that's not happening. don't read to much into it.
what i think is going on is not all that unusual for a pinkie. what i am saying is that the mm's are not settling with the dtcc because they can get away with it so the shares that are being accumulated are not actually being sold by a share holder, they are phantom in the way that naked short shares are not borrowed.
the shares are getting into a buyers account. what is happening is the market makers are selling shares they do not own, ie naked shorting, and i don't expect them to cover. what should happen is the dtcc should force the market makers to show that the shares were borrowed and when in accumulation mode force the mm's to show that there were actual shares sold through brokerage houses that match the total of buys, ie, settlement.
if you think this is the case, why would kkr/citi get involved and tie up 600 million, not a good use of their money imo.
the only way what you say makes sense is if kkr/citi are in it for the fees which doesn't make sense.
Lastly, I have been trading/investing a long time and have seen market manipulation hundreds of times but the way the stock is accumulated at 2.20$ give or take is very interesting.
I am going to go way out of the box on this one. Question, where are those shares that are being acquired coming from, of course the simple answer is that they are being bought from sellers. I don't think that is the case. I think because it's a pink sheet stock and the dtcc is clueless the market makers are not settling the shares and the dtcc is so clueless they don't care because it's a pinkie.
all in my opinion and mine alone
Nurse, you have to have patience with wmih. They couldn't do anything until the nols hit the 3 year mark. They have kkr/citi/blackstone involved.
The next steps are share holder approval for move to Delaware, after that, their first acquisition, then a move to a major exchange. If they do this within the next 6 months to a year I will be happy. Then the company is real, with earnings, actual 10q and K filings, real 8k's etc.. For me, the key is execution over the next year.
The one thing that bothers me is the float after the first acquisition, the acquisition needs to be huge in revs and earnings or the shares on the market could eat our lunch.
unfortunately it is not a one of a kind as much as you may think. i trade bk stocks all the time and this is the norm, most not to this degree but the norm. the closest examples I can use that are similar to wamu is the calpine bk and kmart bk in the early 2000s. it would take 20 posts to explain, lets just say with kmart, that when they bk'd, the ceo they brought in tried to hide all the assets for him and his cronies and lied under oath regarding the valuation of the real estate etc.., calpine, the reason this one was so disgusting is because the bod privatized valuable subsidiaries throughout the world just within the allotted time where they could not be tied to the bk.
in both cases, share holders got screwed.
so why is wamu oh so different other than you/we/us got caught up in it and know more about what happened and also about how the deal went down.
all in my opinion.