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i'm in agreement with you about wmih.
I detest Jamie, snake oil salesman, dimon but the dude is a brilliant manipulator. I can't say he is a great business man for a couple of reasons.
1. he was lucky that jpm evaluated wamu and talked paulson in to seizing it to save jpm otherwise they were going down hard, harder than goldman, citi and b of a. that was pure luck.
2. he was the white house glory investment banker under obama at the beginning and was next in line for treasury secretary or fed chair but he blew that once the white house figured that jpm was caught up like the rest of the investment banks in the ponzi synthetic cdo game.
on the other hand, he has created such a monster in jpm that it is so convoluted and expansive that the feds can't break it apart.
he is the Teflon don but dirty just like the rest of them
all in my opinion.
nurse, you know I am on the same page as you regarding escrows. but regarding wmih, this is a winner. to many big time players vested for this not to play out nicely for wmih share holders.
plain and simple
nurse, unfortunately for us, the number is closer to 28 million and 3 million shares of wmih.
I'm surprised you would even think 28 billion is feasible. where is the 28 billion coming from again. lol
imo
HMMMM, super secret case, that must be the one that the plaintiff has stated damages over a 100 billion, right.
I sure would like to see the redacted version. You should have that one archived somewhere that you could post.
rockie, now you get it. jpm, probably with the fdic closing their eyes, have sliced, diced, juiced, laundered all the assets that may have belonged to the wamu holding company. they are long gone, how much value did those assets have. my guess is several hundred million are long gone. all per the gaap gray areas, ie, reasonably legal.
If there were 100s of millions let alone the laughable numbers escrow lovers are stating, there would have been to many to count lawsuits trying to claw back those assets.
very lucid comment on your part. congrats for starting to see the light.
It would stand up in court. There is precedence out their regarding ownership rights. What susman did not want is the escrows to become a tradeable speculated commodity on an exchange or other venue. That does not preclude conveyance from one direct party to another. in my opinion
Hilarious yahoo post. Maybe the dude who posted this should rethink his pump post if he wants to sound legit.
There is no lawsuit filed so how can there be a hearing date coming up. If a wamu share holder lawsuit was filed, this board would be all over it.
Below is wrongo.
If JPM doesn't make an acceptable offer by the next scheduled hearing date,......
Sure you will. I think escrows will get a small, small payout but it should be greater than 5 cents. I'm thinking around 45 cents per share. If you are serious, which I doubt you are, I will take you up on your offer. Depending on the amount of shares you hold, I will pay for my attorney to draft the conveyance document.
Payout will not happen for a few years but I am willing to wait. Put up or shut up. If serious let me know and I will post my email addy and we can go from there.
Nurse, you want to convey your shares as well, same deal, 5 cents per share.
Anyone else.
all in my opinion
Can someone give me the link to the filing regarding potential wmih stock split, thx
through a contract conveying the rights to any future payouts
Bban, I appreciate your responses, but below is incorrect.
But one last thing as I have stated at least 1000 times OFF BOOK ASSETS CAN"T BE CLAWED BACK into an estate by anyone INCLUDING THE TRUSTEE , as they are or were not PART OF THE BK ESTATE OF WAMU!!!!!!!!!!!! And ON THIER BOOKS
======================================================================
What the escrow lovers are claiming is that there are 10s to over 100 billion in off book assets that belong to the holding company and now belong to escrows, etc..
A trustee has a lot of power and a lot of resources, if you are talking the kind of money some are talking, the trustee would have taken a long look at the huge money, analyzed the assets and reported what that money represents and why it is not part of the bk. None of that has happened.
Even if it is off book, the trustee would have forced the powers to be to identify those assets and the trustee would decide. If the party holding the assets off book refused to return them, including the fdic, the trustee would file a lawsuit against the party. Again, this would all be public record. If none belong to the bk, the trustee would say as such.
Let's take it one step further, let's say the trustee didn't look for the assets or didn't care or is incompetent. Who is going to fight for those assets and turn them over to escrows now. If no one is putting pressure on jpm/fdic to turn them over, like I said before, if they are there which I doubt, surely the fdic/jpm is not going to wrap a bow around the 10s of billions and turn them over.
I also said in the past, I believe there were assets given to jpm that they did not legally own through the bk. But after several years, as scummy as jpm is, don't you think that their lawyers, accountants, etc.. would have sliced and diced them and cleaned their books of them so they are no longer traceable.
Bk's are the dirtiest of games and we lost, now make the money up other ways, one way is to invest in wmih.
all in my opinion and mine alone.
Is that in the 8k, I don't remember reading that. If you are correct, I apologize.
bban and other escrow lovers, have you ever traded bk companies in the past, do you understand the waterfall analysis and what it represents. Have you ever read a trustee report other than for wamu.
The trustee has one role and one role only, to determine the current liabilities, current assets and claw back potential. Claw back is the critical part. In every bankruptcy I have traded/invested (dozens) the trustee discusses what they are going to do to maximize return to bond holders/creditors/shareholders. Either through investigating and identifying where assets may be hidden or through lawsuits filed against those that may be hiding them. Every month or quarter depending on the bk, the trustee submits a report. Why is there zero talk from the trustee about claw back potential, zero talk about investigations regarding additional assets they are going after, zero talk about lawsuits the trustee has filed or plans to. Why is that, it's been years, surely 10s of billions are not that hard to hide. If there was a huge asset pool waiting to be delivered to escrow you would already know about it.
The only reason I will not "sell" my escrows is because there is a slim chance that if wmih becomes very very successful years down the road that the bod will "gift" wmih shares to escrow holders based on what they may have lost, ie, give them a percentage of their losses back in wmih shares.
Why do I continue to periodically post rational thought to the 10-100 billion plus dreamers club, simply so mom and pop escrow holders better understand that the likelihood of a huge return is slim and they should strategize better ways to make money then to wait for the dream to happen. One way would be to invest through dollar cost averaging into wmih. The odds are way better than for then to make millions on their escrows. It's not to late to start.
All in my opinion and mine alone.
OH, one more thing regarding trustees and the length they will go to find assets. I was involved in a situation where a company went bk and the trustee went all the way to Turkey to try and claw back real estate that was purchased before the bk. What has the wamu trustee done, hmmm, hopped on a plane or walked down the street to talk with jpm or fdic, probably not, if he did, it would be public record and we would know about it, that's their job to communicate to those owed money.
bban, come on dude, why do you guys continue your outlandish speculation. Billions hidden ready to be gift wrapped by the fdic/jpmc and turned of to escrow is not going to happen.
The trustee has stated how much money is there and what the runoff dollars are going to be but that is not good enough for you guys. That's right, the trustee is in bed with the hedges wanting to steal your escrow shares, oooops, that can't now can I. So, why would the trustee not inform the world that there are billions coming back to creditors, escrow holders and the holding company. Bban, take a crack at a logical answer. sheesh, all imo
wamulicioius, why make up stories, come on dude. your statement below is not accurate.
new CEO & CFO who have decided to take an anomalous portion of their compensation in equity.
For one, I was a little surprised that the newcceo is a part time employee of wmih. He is making 500k per year as a part timer. I'm still on board with my wmih investment big time but that surprised me. He is not loaded with options if I remember correctly.
that's ridiculous, with the low volume, there are no good risk/reward entries and exits, come on dude, did you get caught at 14 cents, ouch
the fictional character STATLER is done. The stock tips pump/dumps are done. Believe it or not, stock tips did their job, some insiders dumped probably around 15-18 million shares yesterday and it was all profit because their cost basis was .001 per share. They pocketed about 3 million, not bad for a days work from the insider(s), my research shows 2 guys owned most of the shares that were dumped. all in my opinion and mine alone.
it's even more telling that most of them are dogs on their new exchange. I'm very surprised to see that. Even those that moved to nyse. wow, thx for posting, this was enlightening.
statler is done, his picks are getting worse and worse. after the mm's take their cut, he takes his through dilution and colv takes theirs, they all probably made a couple 100k each. wow, for the good ole days of the statler pump/dump. all in my opinion
Green, what's more likely, jpm and the fdic turn over a 100 bil in wamu assets to escrow or if this money/assets ever did exist in anywhere near that amount you escrow lovers talk, that it has been sliced, diced, laundered etc. by jmp, where it is all non identifiable as a former wamu holding company asset or it never did exist.
You continue to mention the divesting of 100 billion by jpm and if you would spend one minute you would find out that the 100 billion is monies held for other institutions that have been returned because of regulatory requirements that jpm does not want to deal with.
If there was even 50 million, lawsuits would have been filed identifying those assets by type and dollar value, nothing like that has occurred. Why has Willmingham not gone after the assets, or creditors that are getting short changed or bond holders that are not yet whole.
The wamu trustee never once said there is an opportunity to claw back one red cent. Every bk I have ever investigated that had a decent amount of assets, the trustee had a spread sheet with assets the bk owns and also a list of potential clawbacks, nothing like this ever existed for wamu. Maybe the trustee was part of the conspiracy, if so, since no one is looking for the assets how do you expect them to be found. Maybe escrow holders should file the lawsuit since the assets are ours.
That's ok to you escrow lovers because you think that it is all hidden just waiting for jpm and the fdic to tie a bow around that 100 billion and give it to us escrow holders. Since you escrow lovers are so good at finding info and trying to tie it to assets of wamu I have an idea.
When jpm files in their 10q a huge purchase of red bows than maybe those assets are going to all be wrapped up by jpm and turned over to us. I'm going to pour through the 10qs now and look for bow purchases can some of the other escrow holders help me, please, lol.
all in my opinion. now if you can bring yourself to it, just sit back and wait for the money to come in if you are so certain.
well Real, your opinion is wrong, Friday before a holiday that is ridiculous.
What will be telling is when wmih announces their first M&A and when it announces their up list to a real exchange. That will be telling.
Do people think before they write/post. Many on this board, NOT., lol.
Enjoy your telling long weekend. Monday's action may be telling, lol.
that is not what is relevant regarding my comment. Has it ever been said that the law change was due to the wamu seizure. They know it was a cluster f but that does not mean in any way shape or form that the fdic is going to give the assets back or force jpm or whomever to do so. I if you think that the fdic through whomever is managing the assets just waiting for the right time to tie a bow on them and give them back is beyond my comprehension. I try to live in the real world.
I'm with you, there are probably 100s of millions in assets but there is just no way I can see that fdic/jpm gives them back. Especially since zero lawsuits have been filed in all these years trying to claw them back and the trustee never tried to claw them back. Ask yourself why.
Sorry bban, but he is familiar with the situation regarding the escrows and has had communication with his partners on the possibility of looking at brokering the escrow shares.
absolutely
bban, you got it, it is taught now at major business schools. There are actually classes in risk/reward based on what are called gray area practices.
There are even ratios calculated for regulatory, government and civil penalties and if the reward is so many times the potential penalty then it is considered a cost of doing biz. Not sure if it is part of gaap but in the future it probably will be. Great society we live in.
What ever her name, ie, the attorney general was asked if the fines were related to the actual profit and she said no, they were related to the time frame (length) of the crime.
pathetic, just so pathetic.
Can someone give me a few references of where the fdic has returned assets to share holders, bond holders, creditors in excess of 100 million dollars.
If escrows are in line to get the big bucks there should be some precedence where this has occurred in the past. Or will us escrow holders be the precedence.
I looked, I could not find one example and that is why I feel my wmih shares are so much more valuable then my escrows.
Also, I was talking with an attorney friend of mine and even though escrows can not be traded, they can be conveyed to anyone you want and their can be value associated with the conveyance.
all in my opinion
nurse, you know I agree with you regarding the wild speculation of many of the escrow holders but you need to calm down a bit.
I know you are frustrated with the current bod but I don't understand why. They have done what they need to do to structure the company to allow for the growth we are looking for.
It takes time.
To me, the true test will come two fold.
1. What type of company they acquire, ie, what earnings.
2. The move to a higher exchange.
Those who want them to buy cpmk. That scares me a bit. For two reasons, they never uplisted and they are very short on communication with share holders.
I'm glad I didn't listen to those who told me not to load up at 220ish. I almost listened to them, NOT. lol
Regarding my escrows, did I ever mention how I could care less about my escrows, lol.
Blankfien and Paulson are friends, remember Paulson ran goldman before blankfien. Lied, ummm, let's just say that blankein may have miss understood the questions, lol. imo
thx 123, let me clarify a couple of points, only because I am friends with a relatively famous economist who has studied the crash of 08 in such detail that he has been quoted hundreds of times and took a sabbatical from his teaching gig because he was in such demand on the speech circuit and as an international consultant for a couple of years, ie 2010-2011. He is now back to teaching.
Here, in brief, is how he told me things went down.
Hanky pank Paulson in spring of 08 shortly after leh went down, went to goldman, specifically blankfien and asked him what was going on to roil the credit markets so severally. Blanfien did not come clean at this point.
The credit markets continued to dry up into the summer and the chit was hitting the fan big time. He went to blankfien again and asked why all the disorder in the markets. This is when blanfien came clean and told paulson about all the chit synthetic cdo's that were in the market with little or no collateral to back them up.
Primarily, what goldman and jpm and several others were doing (NOT WAMU, NOT WELLS FARGO, NOT THE SMALL MOM AND POP BANKS) but all the big "investment banks" were colluding with the credit rating agencies, primarily standard and poors and rating theoretical derivatives triple A and selling them to china as triple A mortgage backed securities, the problem was they were not mortgage backed but were based on the theoretical default rates of mortgages based on zip code, yes zip code.
At the time, China was buying any debt that the u.s. would sell them rated triple A. In total, over a Trillion dollars worth.
Soo, back to paulson, once goldman came clean blankfien explained what was going on and paulson was stunned. Paulson at this point knew this was really really bad because if mortgage default rates went up marginally, the failure rate of the synthetics would go up exponentially. Blankfien told paulson that they were insured by AIG, thus the reason AIG was bailed out. It was a direct pass through to goldman sachs, almost the whole amount given to AIG went to goldman. That's why it was so critical to bail out aig, could you imagine what would have happened if goldman went under.
He then went to dimon and asked him the same thing, who are your synthetics insured by, because whom ever they were, paulson was going to bail them out as well. uh oh, dimon had to tell paulson that they decided the risk was low so they self insured.
This is when, dimon got so, so fing lucky. JPM needed cash and dimon knew in detail how much cash and assets wamu had. Thus, to save jpm, wamu was seized to shore up jpm's books. This is why wamu was immediately seized. It prevented a direct bail out of jpm by the feds. dimon was so lucky that they made an offer for wamu months earlier so they knew that wamu was golden compared to them, goldman, citi, anyone playing in synthetics.
Actually, my friend said that wamu in theory should have been the one to have taken over jpm because they were in better financial shape, but they were not a fed reserve bank and were not connected because they were not part of the inner circle. Wamu saved jpm from bk.
The spin is the best part, all the sub prime mortgagers were blamed even though the collateral of bricks and mortar they held on their books was so much better collateralized then jpm, goldman, citi. Why, they had zero synthetic derivatives on their books. The synthetics had leverages of several hundred to one, the sub prime lenders were around 50 to 1. This was the best mis direction play ever.
So lets move to recent times, jpm survives, goldman survives and the feds fine them 10s of billions for what they did but no one cares and no one goes to jail.
Wamu was the sacrificial lamb for jpm to survive.
One last point, once China figured out they the were the ponzi that were livid and basically told the feds they are not taking the fall, pay us back or else. What is the what else. China threaten to devalue the u.s. dollar. The threat worked and China was made whole.
This is all my opinion and mine alone based on what I have been told and what I have read.
Back into hiding for awhile but I thought it was worth posting this info periodically to get the truth out there.
I remember you stating that. It is so many others that are obsessed with their escrows and I am just trying to explain to them how the game is played based on my experience.
I wish I was an attorney and advocate for share holders everywhere, the first thing I would do is sue rosencrap and his law firm.
Second thing I would do is sue jpm just to get a look at the books, knowing that they would tie up the lawsuit in the courts for 15 years.
These guys always get away with murder because they have such deep pockets. Look at all the trouble jpm has been in or caused. The london, whale, the 13 billion fine for fraud without admitting to it, synthetic cdo's ect, ect.
After today, I'm going silent for awhile until the next lovers of escrows get out of control with 100 plus billion statements. lol
good luck to all, I hope I am dead wrong about my escrows but I doubt it.
bban, you mention a great, great, point. Here is the problem, he was destroyed by reporters after lampert was able to lever the real estate and buy sears. He got caught by a reporter who did an expose on how much lampert made. LIKE I HAVE BEEN SAYING SINCE I STARTED POSTING ABOUT THIS. ESCROWS DO NOT HAVE THE VOICE THAT IS NEEDED TO GET THE FDICK AND JPM TO CAVE. NO LAWSUIT STATING ASSETS WERE STOLEN THAT SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN PART OF THE DEAL. ACCOUNTING RECORDS OF THE HOLDING COMPANY WERE TAKEN (AND I BET DESTROYED) BY FDICK AND JPM SHOWING WHAT WAS PROPERTY OF THE HOLDING COMPANY AND THUS WAS NOT PURCHASED BY JPM.
Ok, there is my rant. Now back to facts, not one document, no one entity, such as sussman, willmingham bond holders is voicing concern that there are assets that belong to the holding company.
Let's say that there are assets, I can hear the fdic now. Wamu was one of the worse offenders of sub prime (which they were not) and the government had to bail all of them out and it cost the public 100s of billions, so what ever is there we are divesting ourselves and giving it back to the general public not the share holders. That is what all the huge settlements are about, jpm paid 13 billion in fines.
Last but not least, let's say wamu was making a ton of bad loans, that still did not directly cause the financial crisis, it was the likes of goldman, jpm, citi, that were writing over a trillion dollars of synthetic derivatives that were levered several 100 to one, yes, several hundred to one with no brick and mortar collateral. It was all a ponzi scheme.
This is what many just don't get. None of the sub prime lenders directly caused the crash, but they took the entire blame. Years later, jpm settles for 13 billion, citi for 7 billion, don't remember what goldman settled for. And poof it all goes away. Not one person goes to jail, not one person indicted.
So, this is why I think my escrows at best will be worth very little. It's a fixed game. all in my opinion and mine alone
roach, I mentioned it in one of my posts. The judge was waco and wanted the kmart bk out of his court in a year. No equity committee was accepted by the court even though they had data showing the real estate was worth about 10x what the distressed debt holders were telling the courts through their hand picked law firm. It turned out that less than a month after the re-org and cancelling of common, the real estate was valued at 10x higher than what was told to the court and levered to buy sears. crazy but true. This is the problem with bk's. They lie like rosencrap did to the court all the time. all in my opinion only
not at all, it is very similar to many I have been involved in. calpine, kmart, even lehman, whose debt holders are getting about 18cents on the dollar, if I remember correctly, guess how much common share holders are getting in that case. Calpine and kmart are very similar in that the bk bod and distressed debt bond holders tried to hide and steal assets. Guess what they got away with it. Lehman not as similar but they are a good gauge into a company that had 100s of billions of assets all over the world and the bond holders are getting about 20 cents on the dollar.
I understand what you are saying, Barnie Franks has stated it also, but how do you expect escrows to get any assets back if there is no fight for them.
If a class action lawsuit was filed or some expose' article about what jpm stole from wamu share holders that would be different but to just think that any measurable amount of assets or money will ever be returned is beyond my comprehension based on my experience of trading or investing in bk companies and my understanding of what really went down in 08.
The saddest part of this whole thing is that wamu was probably much stronger financially than jpm, goldman and all the others that were writing synthetic derivatives based on actuarial theory with no real collateral.
Those are the guys that should be in jail because they knew exactly what fraud they were committing and throw in standard and poors and the other rating agencies that were rating garbage triple A
absolutely covert, that is one of the problems, if the assets truly belong to escrow how in heck do you think they are going to come back when there is not a fight for them. that is the major problem. Don't you think if there was big money out there, there would be a fight for it. There is not, the only fight is bond holders saying that jpm paid way to little for all the assets not that they have assets that don't belong to them.
bban, you are one of the more astute posters, but to actually think that there are 10s of billions coming back to our dear escrows blows my mind. It has never happened in the past and is not going to happen now.
It can't, not one of the dreamers, I am not including you, can come up with how this is going to happen. It is way naive to think that anyone would turn over 10s of millions let alone billions without a huge fight to hold on to the assets.
If you understand the bond holders lawsuit it has nothing to do with them stating there are billions of dollars that belong to the holding company that is not jpm's. What they state is the seizure was not lawful. Ok, let's say they win, the bond holders get paid, which is a very long shot and where does that leave escrows, ie, no representation, no lawsuit filed going after assets that they think belong to escrows, nothing.
The dreamers are going to be here for years mucking up this board as wmih share holders look at multiple baggers year over year.
Very similiar to kmart, ie, those invested in the newco made a nice chunk of change especially if you invested in the options, those dreaming that the cancelled stock of the bk'd kmart would some how be worth a fortune got nothing. I would hate to see that happen to escrow only holders. all in my opinion.
imo
If there is 23 billion what do you expect is going to happen.
What is more likely, that jpm has sliced and diced those assets legally per gaap and divested of them or have kept them in a nice little package ready to turn over to wamu escrow holders
pm, show me one doc that states that jpm is servicing 165 billion worth of loans for wamu bond holders and escrow holders. And lets say they are servicing those loans for wamu, how much are they worth. What is 165 billion in loan servicing actually bring to the bottom line. This is all moot but I wanted to humor you.
I keep going back to how the game is played. Wamu bk's, deals are cut, share holders get markers for tenths of a penny on the dollar and all this takes several years until no one cares. After that many years, the assets are gaap laundered and they disappear if they ever existed.
In all the documents I have read it is stated that there is very little money available to come back to shareholders, ie, escrows.
The table has been set. The fdic has not said one word about this huge asset belonging to wamu. The trustee of the bk has not said booo about any large wamu assets coming back. JPM of course has not said a word. Our legal team, including our own ceo, and share holder lawyer, sussman etc.. has not said a word.
All you escrow future millionaires want to continue to dream that by the grace of jamie dimon, he will come clean hold hands with the heads of the fdic and raise their hands clasped together over their heads and say, here are all your assets escrow holders and say they have been great stewards of the billions and billions of your money and now it is yours. hallelujah they then shout to all escrow holders in the audience including myself, lol
Sheesh, you guys are very gullible.
all in my opinion and mine alone
pm, your comment is precious. You think that the potential for escrows is greater than the wmih common. Wow, that is one of the most interesting posts I have ever read on this board.