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watch what happens boys, the waterfall stops just above share holders equity, why, because that's the bk way.
if wmih takes off I will still be here years down the road but not waiting for my escrows to pay off but discussing wmih as a real company.
Years down the road and a pittance of dollars come back to escrow I can hear some of you now. It's just a matter of time, fdick-r cleaning everything up so they can give us our 100 billion in assets back. Ain't gonna happen. all imo
pick, first off, the fdick does not have any substantial wamu holding company assets, they have all been given to jpm to hide, slice, dice and launder away as their own. So basically you are talking about these little dribbles of shares over the next few years.
The only hope is that wmih is the real deal and will start to perform and do what they need to do to drive share much higher.
I was very pro wmih and added a lot of shares post bk, and have continued to add.
IT IS NOW TIME FOR WMIH TO PRODUCE. WHAT ARE THEY WAITING FOR. IT'S FING SIMPLE. 1. BUY A PROFITABLE PRIVATE COMPANY IN THE 1/2 TO 1 BILLION REV. RANGE WITH 20% PROFIT MARGIN. 2. MOVE TO A REAL EXCHANGE. 3. COMMUNICATE IN DETAIL YOUR PLANS TO MOVE FORWARD AND MAKE US A LOT OF MONEY, LOL. ALL IMO
There is no big money, this is the token payout. This added a whopping 900 bucks in shares to my account, big deal. For those that are only banking on escrows it ain't going to happen.
I loaded up on post bk shares of wmih and have dollar cost averaged in with a lot more. I'm banking on wmih to get their chit together and act like a real company with 6 billion in nols to use.
These things have to happen:
1. Decimate your game plan, fing communicate with share holders;
2. Make that first m&a deal;
3. Move to a real exchange, preferably nyse;
Then we are talking. I am less confident than before because of the mess kkr got themselves in with the sec and the fine they had to pay.
I never thought and still don't think that the only reason for the 600 million sitting in wmih is so kkr can collect fees but I am not as sure as I was before.
You guys want me gone, sp goes back to 2 and I take my triple and run.
Good luck but escrows are not going to make us rich, it's not in the cards. all imo
boris, how big was that bump in share price again.
boris, you have got to be kidding, this was a trial to see if the distribution of shares works. Conveyance of shares happens all the time, Watch how long it takes for us to get another .007 shares per.
You do realize that this is also dilution to current outstanding shares and adds no value to wmih. Will most take their pittance and run. I for one will leave mine to vest because I still believe in the future of wmih. Even though I have become a little skeptical because of the sec fine of kkr. We shall see. but come on dude, you actually can't think this is a test. It was 51 million going to creditors, you may think that is chump change but it's not. Maybe another couple hundred mil is in the pipeline. My analysis was that best case scenario half a billion may come back, am I surprised about this, NO because all we got was a token. All imo
fwh, that's hogwash, jpm had to dump 150 billion off it's books because of a change in banking regulations. It's just part of the rumor mill that they dumped wamu money back to fdick. The monies in the jpm bank were monies held from other fed reserve banks and because of the change in regulation they gave the funds back to the institutions.
all imo
AZ, you are one of the most competent posters regarding the speculation surrounding the billions coming back to escrows.
You are probably accurate on many of your points and since you have are legally experienced your speculation has more merit than most.
Problem is, you are thinking what should happen if it was an equal playing field with honest business men/corporations involved.
Problem is that is not what takes place in these types of situations. What takes place is a dog eat dog world of theft, power and connections.
You may have legal experience as you say. What I have is how these types of situations play out almost 100% of the time. With jpm involved that "almost" becomes even closer to a certainty.
You lay out this sophisticated strategy that those in the know were using to eventually get escrows paid.
You lay out the scenario where sussman schooled rosen and out lawyered rosen every step of the way, lol. You lay out this grandiose idea that it is only a matter of time and all the ducks are lining up for some entity to return over 100 billion to the "estate" holding company.
What you seem to forget is at the 11th hour one of the luckiest events occurred when that young dude ( can't remember his name) stood before the judge and persuaded her that the hedgies were corrupt and that allowed sussman to have some leverage to get the NOL's and the hope of a small return for escrow holders. Why do you think the powers to be signed off on the escrow place cards because they knew very little if any assets would come back.
So, what is more likely your scenario, even though I still cannot even fathom who is the steward/manager of the 100 billion in assets and where they are and neither can anyone else. Why because there has never been a sum of assets close to that number conveyed back to the estate in a bk situation WHEN THE TRUSTEE HAS NOT GONE AFTER THEM OR LAWSUITS FILED LEFT AND RIGHT CLAIMING 10S OF BILLIONS IN DAMAGES were filed. hmmm, how is this going to happen again. The 100 plus billion is going to fall in escrows lap, how? lol.
Is your scenario more likely, or is it more likely that fdick didn't give a chit about anything other than saving their azz and turned everything over to jpm and jpm has had 7 years to steal those assets without a trace, NOW I SAY WITHOUT A TRACE BECAUSE NO ONE IS LOOKING FOR THEM. JPM HAS 100S OF VERY INTELLIGENT LAWYERS, ACCOUNTANTS, ETC. AND HAVE HAD 7 YEARS TO MAKE THOSE HOLDING COMPANY ASSETS DISAPPEAR.
Some say no lawsuit needed, that is so naive it's scary that people think in this high game of finance with 100s of lawyers working on jpm's behalf that any of those possible funds the holding company may have had are going to come back to escrow WITHOUT A FIGHT.
all imo
nothing!
donot, this is what many don't understand, they think that everything is black and white regarding assets, ie, this is the banks and this is the holding companies.
what should have happened is sussman should have immediately sued fdick and jpm. maybe easier said than done in hindsight but in reality sussman took the easy way out. maybe pressure from the judge maybe not, maybe "collusion" with jpm, maybe not, maybe pressure from the higher ups at sussmans firm to not rock the boat to much against jpm hoping for future business from them, maybe not. bottom line, he did not sue jpm and/or fdick and now it ain't going to happen.
jpm has now had several years to dice, slice and launder all of wamu holding company assets. LIKE YOU SAID, IN ONE INSTANCE WMI MEANT THE BANK IN ANOTHER IT MEANT THE HOLDING COMPANY.
The escrow hopefuls think that someone is going to ride in on a white horse and turn over the assets because they may rightfully belong to the holding company.
No one is talking about the wamu holding company but a few poster on a message board and that means lights out for escrow unfortunately. all imo
pickstocks, good thought, don't be surprised to see rosencrap get business from jpm in the future. I remember listening to some of the court hearings and at times it sounded like rosencrap was jpm's lawyer. so sad but true, imo
jest, relax, I have been at this a long time and I understand what happens in situations like this. Re-read my post, what I said is this is what the other side would say.
I have been involved in wamu from the beginning and I probably understand what transpired better than you do.
It was a miracle that Dorothy? was able to get a lawfirm to fight for an equity committee and it was a miracle that the dude who spoke in court was able to persuade the judge to have the hedge funds back off. Shareholders got the nol's, that is a fact. You guys can cry and cry and say it's unfair all you want. Bottom line, jpm is probably through dicing, slicing and laundering the wamu holding company assets and game over.
All the "power" players involved in wamu are keeping their mouth shut, killinger, rotella and the head of commercial paper left wamu to run the biz at jpm so I doubt he says anything about jpm taking holding company assets, lol. What does this tell you. Why have they all kept quiet, because there is no benefit for them and who knows what the holding company books say, my gut is that a good opposing lawyer would be able to do one of two things. Show all holding company assets are commingled with the banks thus no way to tell what belongs to the holding company and/or be able to show wamu was in such distress and so mismanaged that wamu shareholders are lucky to have gotten the nols with wmih stock. I don't agree that wamu was anymore distressed in fact I think they were stronger than jpm accounting wise but that did not matter now did it.
No one knows for sure and that is what is so sorry about this situation, no lawsuits to get at the truth. So how is the truth about holding company assets discovered without a lawsuit, YOU TELL ME. I don't see a way and my experience trading bk's indicates that is the only way.
I joke about jpm and fdic being good stewards of wamu holding company assets just waiting to turn them over, some of you think that is possible, I say No way without a 15 year battle in the courts.
Look what happened to aig, Hank Greenberg WON for the shareholders, actually got a win in court but shareholders still got nothing. Who paid for greenbergs attorneys, himself and his partners and the shareholders got to go along for the wide. Well greenberg is a billionaire. Are their any billionaires filing suit on your behalf.
This is big business and as such it takes big money to pay for a good lawfirm and no one is stepping up to the plate for you are they? So we lose. all imo
miller, I know you are angry and I know you feel that you deserve money but it ain't going to happen. So who is sifting through this mess on your behalf. Rosen, Sussman, oh, they don't have to do any work because jpm and fdick have been good stewards of escrow assets and are just waiting to turn over billions to us. I think they are lining up the press conference now with a big over sized check for 100 billion dollars just like they do for the winners of the clearing house contest, lol. all imo
jest, there are a lot of choices but do you see the problem, who is going to lead the charge, how many people are going to write and lobby for wamu share holders. A few message board poster are the only ones that care. It ain't going to happen.
Wamu is a dead story. Take the other side, WAMU GOT WHAT THEY HAD COMING TO THEM, THEY WERE WEAK, THEY HAD STUPID MANAGEMENT, THEY WERE CORRUPT, THEY WERE CAUGHT IN THE SUB PRIME SCANDAL AND SHAREHOLDERS STILL GOT SHARES IN WMIH, THAT'S MORE THAN THEY DESERVE. THAT IS ONE WAY THE SPIN COULD GO IF SOME POLITICIAN DID TAKE NOTICE. all imo
stocks, exactly my point. this is why companies like jpm get away with thefts like wamu. No one stands up against them. Their pockets are to deep. Could you imagine the cost of filing suit against jpm say for illegal or mistaken conveyance of wamu holding company assets. Actually I think the way it would go since share holders released rights to sue jpm.
We would have to sue the fdick and then they would counter sue jpm. Bottom line, discovery alone would take a decade. Who is going to pay for the share holders plaintiff attorneys, NO ONE HAS DEEP ENOUGH POCKETS.
THE ONLY CHANCE I ORIGINALLY SAW WAS IF THIS CASE BECAME A POLITICAL HOTBED AND A FEW POLITICIANS GOT BEHIND WAMU SHARE HOLDERS. IT NEVER HAPPENED AND ONCE THAT OCCURRED I KNEW ESCROWS WERE DONE.
I believe the dd by a few on this board has merit that there were substantial assets that could absolutely be traced back to the holding company. My guess about 500 million to a billion. My guess the 10s of billions some are talking about are co-mingled with bank assets and my experience is that a good law firm would prove that most holding company assets actually had ties to the bank and that is/was the big problem. An attorney would have a field day with the wamu holding company books, my guess is they were a complete disaster like most companies.
all imo
so, what's the point, it's just cover your tail legalize. I just don't get you guys. If there was merit and a huge amount of assets of the wamu holding company numerous lawsuits would have already been filed. All it would have taken is a few facts that assets were conveyed wrongly/mistakenly. What do you guys not understand. No lawsuit, no opportunity for escrows to get anything of substance. all imo
you guys keep bringing up the change in banking laws. everyone knows wamu got screwed which means you got screwed. everyone knows what happened in 08 was a complete cluster f by everyone.
It was all a misdirection and spin play by the big banks since the fiasco. If you asked the average joe, 99.9% of them would say sub prime mortgage lending caused the financial crisis. Those in the know knew it was not sub prime per say it was the house of cards all the big banks and investment firms were playing with mortgage default rates.
It is very simple, the big boys were using theoretical failure rates to put together bond offeringS with no collateral behind them and getting the credit rating agencies to rate them AAA and then selling them to china as mortgage backed securities which they were but one problem the were synthetic mortgage backed which means there was no brick and mortar collateral just paper collateral that was worthless once the market tipped over. They all got away with it and who got screwed, wamu WHO HAD ZERO EXPOSURE TO SYNTHETICS. ROTTELLA WROTE A LETTER EXPLAINING THIS TO THE FEDS AND THEY EITHER JUST DIDN'T GET IT, OR DIDN'T BELIEVE IT OR WERE SO PANICKED THEY KNEW THEY HAD TO SAVE JPM AT ANY COST.
WHO WAS THE MOST EXPOSED TO SYNTHETICS, JPM, BOFA, GOLDMAN, BEAR, LEHMAN AND CITI.
WHO WERE LEAST EXPOSED, THE SMALL MOM AND POP BANKS, WAMU, AND WELLS FARGO. REGARDING WELLS FARGO, THEY WERE OUTSIDERS LIKE WAMU. WELLS FARGO WAS PROBABLY THE STRONGEST BANK OUT THERE AT THE TIME AND EVEN THOUGH THEY GOT HUGE MONEY FROM BUFFET IS WAS ONLY AS A SECURITY BLANKET AND FOR SHOW IMO. WAMU SHOULD HAVE SURVIVED BUT THEIR MANAGEMENT WAS TO STUPID TO HANDLE THE SITUATION AND WHO KNOWS HOW MUCH DISHONEST STUFF WENT ON BEHIND THE SEENS FOR JPM TO CUT OFF WAMU AT THE KNEES.. ALL IMO
stocks, it's not balz, it's about money. they would not get a court to approve payment for the lawsuit so who is going to pay for it. that is why none has been filed against fdick or jpm or whomever. imo
meat, it is also not a stretch to realize that they may have only be after the 6 billion in nols. Maybe they had a plan to shelter a couple of billion in profit or maybe they were interested in the nols because they wanted to do future m&a. hmmm, look at both sides, imo
justicewillnotwin, there have been hundreds of news articles over the years that state the 1.9 billion jpm paid was for the whole bank. the problem came in more than likely based on the fdick being clueless what the holding company actually owned vs the bank and gave it all to jpm. The books between the bank and the holding company were probably co-mingled making it easy for jpm the steal all the assets whether holding company or bank. the fdic could care less and as you can see, no back lash by anyone. no lawsuit but escrows had another shot and that was political, if one, just one congressman asked the right questions maybe, just maybe a congressional investigation could have taken place but nope, that didn't happen either. No political benefit as everyone wants to put 2008 behind them.
Sheila Bair once she went into private practice made a couple of comments early on how the feds fd this all up and then she was silenced and never heard from again.
Cover up or just good business by jpm, they were "supposedly" the super bank at the time and that is what allowed them to steal wamu, but we know the truth but who cares, no one. all imo
pyramid, if this is legit then there is the answer why escrows don't have a prayer. once in the hands of jpm, the slicing and dicing began and now the laundering is just about over.
Unfortunately all those that did the wonderful dd regarding wamu holding company assets missed one very important point regarding the lack of understanding how this type of business works.
JPM is in complete control and no one wants to go after them. No lawsuits indicate game over. Like I have said many times, jpm deep pockets would tie any lawsuit up in the courts for 15 years and no law firm will take on a case like this with the likelihood of success unknown.
Once the cowards at fdick said to jpm, please get the tax payers off the hook and you can have everything and you deal with it years down the road. We are now years down the road and checkmate.
Even if pyramids post is not legit this is what more than likely occurred anyway.
all imo
fwh, i have escrows so it looks like I am going to be rich. Please,please site for me the 10q that states that billions and billions of assets on jpm books are coming back to wamu. Just give me the year and quarter and I will look it up. Not only that, when you are talking this magnitude it would also be stated in detail in jpm's 10k, just tell me the year. thx, imo
123, omg, you actually think that there is a plan in place to return all those supposed assets. If so, why have they yet to be returned and who is managing them, jpm or fdick. I know, jpm and fdick are so righteous that they are just going to turn over 10s of billions because it is the right thing to do. sheesh, so naive some are. all imo
green, what is the current total amount of assets wmilt owns?
I hope I'm wrong regarding escrows allowing you to become rich because if you become rich with your escrows so will I. Unfortunately the game is over and escrows are virtually worthless.
I have asked this question about a dozen times. Are you surprised about the jpm pr regarding 30 billion in the rubble. Do you think those were actually wamu holding company assets.
No one who has done there holding company dd has yet to give their opinion on that question. Why? Let me speculate the why? Because over the last 7 years, jpm has sliced, diced, laundered, washed all the wamu company assets and the trial back to them being wamu holding company assets is long gone.
On top of that, who is looking for those assets, no lawsuits filed on escrows behalf, what does that mean, no one thinks there is a lot of merit in finding wamu holding company assets because the big boys who are still owed billions know they are long gone and they can't fight jpm. all imo
What I have is dozens of years trading bk companies and my understanding of how the game is played.
One fact I am sure of, jpm will NOT give anything back unless they are forced and I could give you many examples of this. imo
So many of you have used the term "Fair and Reasonable" You think that 10s of billions is fair and reasonable. We have no one fighting for us via a lawsuit so as far as anyone outside escrow holder think. Share holders got more than they should have with the wmih surviving and 6 billion in nol's. 99% would think that is fair and reasonable and unless some one fights for escrows that is what we will most likely get, imo
donot, you and me both,
Thinking that billions of assets are coming back under the wamu escrow situation is just plain wrong.
The sad thing is that those who are doing all this dd and putting the pieces together that indicate the wamu holding company did have sizable assets may be correct. What they don't understand is that jpm either stole them or they were mistakenly conveyed to jpm and jpm has now implemented strategies that are going to allow jpm to keep all the assets. 2 points make this almost a certainty.
1. The 30 billion in the rubble jpm p.r.. (It means they are comfortable that they have a lock tight strategy to keep all the holding company assets).
2. NO LAWSUIT FILED AGAINST JPM FOR THE THEFT OR MISTAKEN CONVEYANCE OF ALL THOSE ASSETS LAYING OUT THE CASE WITH CLAIMS AND DAMAGES FOR 10'S OF BILLIONS.
Same applies for fdick.
I feel for those that think the wrong will be righted but it ain't happening. all imo
error, paid by who to whom. thx
dork, the fdic website is what you are using to rationalize 100s of billions are coming back to wamu escrow holders, wow.
Can someone show me one instance where fdic-r has turned over more than 1 billion in assets to anyone, just curious. thx
123, how many hundreds of thousands of bonds were you going to buy.
so if there is 38 billion sitting at fdick why has that money not been returned to creditors and to you as an escrow holder?
it doesn't matter, fdick is a government entity. Here is how I think it came down. fdick were clueless about what was happening in sept. of 08, paulson told bair to seize wamu to save jpm.
You know the government, they are bureaucrats and will do what they are told by higher ups. So bair seized wamu. You need to remember the times, it was chaos. The only objective of fdick at the time was to make sure tax payers did not eat any losses. So all they did was turn everything over to jpm and said you can deal with it just make sure we are not on the hook for any wamu losses. Holding company assets went along with the bank assets.
Then bk posturing comes in to play for years, everything is negotiated away and wamu share holders get the nol's and a hope that there are some assets there that will come back via escrows. The powers to be now have 7, 8 years to figure out how to position everything to make sure escrows don't get anything and that is what has been happening. No one wants to go after jpm because of their power but also because of the uncertainty of success.
So, what happens if you sue fdick, they defend themselves by suing jpm to get the assets back, do let's say, some headway is made and it gets as far as fdick suing jpm after we sue fdick. 20 years later, a few pennies come back to escrow, in the mean time who is paying the escrow attorneys, no one, so no lawsuits filed to get anything back.
As surprising as it was that Dorothy was able to persuade a lawfirm to take on her case to get an equity committee, that was the easy part because they knew based on bk law they would be paid by the estate. Same with sussman, they were paid from the estate and look at rosen the scum bag, paid by the estate. unfortunately who is going to pay for escrows to sue fdick, no one, no court would approve payments from the estate so no pay no play. it's a lawyers motto, lol.
all imo
dork, so who is representing you to find those assets and give them back to you as an escrow holder. no one. So for all practical purposes they are long gone. all imo
ok, I agree to a degree. So let's talk practically.
JPM has assets that don't belong to them. Possession is 9/10th of the law. So how does escrow get the assets back, the only way is a law suit and none have been filed. Zero, nada, no one is going after jpm or fdick regarding the assets that were either stolen or mistakenly conveyed.
The u.s. is a very litigious country and the only way to fight for what belongs to you is through a lawsuit.
So, let's look at your response, real estate is traceable, I agree to a degree, so who or what entity is forcing jpm or fdick to prove that what was given to them for 1.9 billion were the assets of the bank only and not the holding company.
You guys are so adamant that hundreds of billions of assets are missing that belong to the holding company but not a word from anyone stating as such except for a few message board posters.
If any lawsuit were filed, jpm would tie it up in court for 15 years and who ever was paying the plaintiffs lawyers better have very deep pockets for a hope and a prayer that they could beat jpm's legal team.
It's sad that some of you that spent countless hours piecing this all together may be right in reference to assets that belonged to the holding company but who is looking for them, no one, so escrow loses and jpm wins and the fdick just shake their heads and say, hey it didn't cost the tax payers anything and they keep their jobs. all imo
come on, be logical. if someone went to a bond broker and said find me 100k worth of wamu jrs. The broker would find out what a seller wants for them and quote them.
You are talking about bonds that are basically worthless with no demand. That's all I'm saying. There is no liquid market, not because of their "great" potential value but because there is so little value.
all imo
green, it's just the opposite, you can't buy them in small quantities. It is not worth the time for a broker to search them out and get a market maker to determine a legit bid/ask from a seller of those bonds, ie, a hedge fund in this case.
But if you came in with 100k in funds looking to buy the wamu jrs, and the broker was experienced in bonds then a price would be established and an order could be placed. Problem is no one wants them.
A bond broker takes a fee if I remember correctly and for 100k worth of bonds the procurement of said bond takes time, I would would not be surprised if the broker wanted a couple k for his fee.
Disclaimer, I have not played in the bond market for several years so things may have changed in reference to fee structure.
all imo
what do you think those jr. are worth. 50 cents, 1$, 10$, 100$?
Everything has a price. The hedgies would sell if there was any type of market for them.
There is zero interest and that is why their is no volume and value is non exestent. Over the past couple years, what is the highest bid/ask anyone has seen?
catz, so well put with facts. thx
If the jr. bond holders thought there was any substantial funds they would have file suit years ago. Spelling out in great detail what happened to those assets and why they do not belong to the current procurer. They would spell out all the claims and damages. Not one lawsuit of substance filed after all these years.
The way some on this board frivolously state billions and 100s of billions, they have no comprehension.
15 billion to jr. bond holders is a lot of money and they would have pursued this with vigor with high powered law firms.
all imo
cowboy, "everyone released" does that mean everyone is paid in full, just curious on your thoughts regarding this.
Now I get it, because there is no precedence then jpm and fdick are going to tie a bow around all those wamu holding company assets and turn them over to our beloved escrow shares.
How is this going to happen, how is the transaction of 100+ billion going to be transferred.
I realize that jpm is the most righteous of companies and have been spending 1000s upon 1000s of man hours and 10s of millions managing those assets at their expense and are just waiting for the surprise party to be set up so they can hand over the keys to over a 100 billion in wamu holidng company assets. OH, jpm may not have them so fdick is probably managing them, right and they have been doing the aforementioned management of the wamu assets.
I can't wait for the headlines and JPM/FDICK pr:
JPM/FDICK have spent the last 7 years safe guarding wamu holding company assets waiting for the right time to set the record straight and turn over 100s of billions in assets over to their rightful owner, wamu shareholders.
The saddest part about this whole thing is that there were probably sizable wamu holding company assets but they are long gone, sliced, diced, laundered. That's the way it is done in bk's.
That's why the 30 billion in the wamu rubble jpm pr is so telling. This is exactly what they did, they stole the assets or they were mistakenly conveyed over to jpm and are now long gone, not even traceable back to the assets being wamu assets. That is why in the jpm pr they mentioned other commercial assets jpm bought from others like citi so they could co-mingle them so no trace back to wamu is easily found.
Where's the lawsuits claiming all those assets are wamu holding company assets, oh, that's right, we don't need a lawsuit because jpm and fdick are just going to turn them over. wow, how naive.
I wonder why no one is up in arms and yelling and screaming about the jpm 30 billion in the rubble press release. I would have thought for sure those are wamu holding company assets.
all imo