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Pick, you are so right. It was a cluster f all around. JPM, bear, goldman, citi, bofa, caused the problem with their synthetic cdo exposure and those that had no exposure and were actually stronger got screwed like wamu because they were not in the club. I have studied the financial crisis in great detail, got lucky off the bottom because I was liquid and was able to buy everything at liquidation value but it still does not make me happy but it did allow me the freedom and time to debate the escrow lovers, lol. I wish I was wrong and escrows get a huge payout, I just can't see it knowing what I know about how the game is played and jpm does it best because of their deep pockets. all imo
You would, if escrows got lets say 10 cents on the dollar, it would be big news and the financial reports would be all over it. What you guys are hoping for is what, several hundred, even thousand times your money, you are dreamers, not realists. Unless you think it will be the first time is history that share holders make a killing on a bk. all imo
There was a conspiracy against wamu, I believe that, go read my posts that mention hanky panky paulson and no scdo jpm insurance. But the conspiracy worked. JPM was saved and no one gives a care about you as an escrow holder.
If you guys actually believe all this money is coming back very quietly and secretly so no one finds out, so be it, you are wrong and a few years down the road you will see as such. you have been here 7 years now, waiting, hoping, waiting, hoping.
Wait until the fdic-r is released after returning a few million, that is when it will all sink in for you guys, all imo
bban, stop mixing up facts. if not for that dude who in court showed how corrupt the hedgies were we would not have even got the nol's. As far as anyone is concerned the nol and wmih was the win for share holders, not the escrows, those are a pipe dream. Are you guys rich on your escrows yet, I'm not. all imo
Stay with my posts, I said about a 100 x that I think jpm orchestrated the whole downfall of wamu to save themselves. But it can never be traced back to them..
You guys get way to emotional about this, jpm won, wamu lost. To clubby to fail is what happened. If you ask anyone, any reporter, anyone on the street, any politician, wamu failed. all imo
sorry, maybe not, but on that Thursday, the share price was close to a dollar if I remember. Maybe it was at 40 cents the next day before it stopped trading before it was moved to the pinks.
What's your point. It does not matter, wamu was sacrificed for the benefit of jpm, the assets have been sliced, diced, washed, laundered etc..and are now gone.
Here is the major problem with you guys, you all said the commercial paper was a wamu holding company assets, jpm pr's the 30 billion in the rubble and not one word from you 100 plus believers now stating those were wamu holding company assets, why, because you can't come to terms that they were washed and now are jpm, just like they say in the pr. all imo
not that they were junk, they are runoff of mortgages not assets. Just tell me one thing, when wamu was acquired by jpm what was wamu's market cap. jpm lawyers will shred the value of any assets that could be coming back down to very little. It's logical but you guys are so blinded.
You have speculated and speculated that all this money is coming back but not a word on the street or not a rise in the yet to be paid bonds but all this money is going to float in. It is not real world you guys are living in, it's not, sorry, all imo
Yep, that's right, all this is being done behind close doors, off book, so the hedgies can't take advantage of it so all the money goes to former share holders who signed the release. I hope I'm wrong, another few million for my retirement won't hurt, but I'm not counting on it like some of you. it's going to be funny a few years down the road when the fdic-r is released for a few million and then what card are you going to play. I got one, jpm and jamie dimon are going to admit the stole wamu and talk their share holders into changing the name back to wamu and shutting down jpm because that is how it should have played out. wow, lol, imo
Just cite me the 10 q year and quarter and what page it says that. It doesn't, you guys are misinterpreting the info. Just like you think the 161 billion are wamu assets when it clearly shows they are runoff mortgages, lol. imo
You will be here in 2018 thinking the same thing. It is hilarious for anyone to think that a 100 billion plus is coming back. It would be huge headlines if 1 billion came back. Oh, right, it will all be done under the table and no one will know that we are all escrow millionaires. lol, all imo
You do mean a few million at most, right, not billions.
By the way, if jpm does owe a 165+ billion, where are they going to come up with the money, oh, they will settle with fdick for half that and use the printing press in dimon's basement. You do realize that jpm's earnings in total for all of last year was about 20 billion. So jpm is going to pay about 8 years of earning to fdick to give back to escrows, this gets more hilarious the more posts you guys make, all imo
omg, please don't tell me, that this table is what you are equating to 165 billion in assets/cash coming back to escrows.
This relates to the runoff of mortgages, period. Do you not understand how mbs's and mortgage paper work. wow, this is what you guys have been banking on, no pun intended.
Read the paragraph from the jpm 10k, it's run off paper. basically worthless from an gaap perspective regarding valuation. here it is again. all imo
In addition, from 2005 to 2008, Washington Mutual m
ade certain loan
level representations and warranties in connection
with approximately
$165 billion of residential mortgage loans that wer
e originally sold or
deposited into private-label securitizations by Was
hington Mutual. Of
the $165 billion , approximately $78 billion has be
en repaid. In
addition, approximately $49 billion of the principa
l amount of such
loans has liquidated with an average loss severity
of 59% .
Accordingly, the remaining outstanding principal ba
lance of these
loans as of December 31, 2014 , was approximately $
38 billion , of
which $8 billion was 60 days or more past due. The
Firm believes that
any repurchase obligations related to these loans r
emain with the FDIC
receivership
FDIC-r not released because a pittance could be coming back. That's why. lol, imo
I'm waiting, where in the latest jpm 10k does it state that 165 billion in assets have been returned...... I'm waiting, or is your talk all speculation?
The only reference in the last jpm 10k about 165 billion just mentions the wamu runoff.
In addition, from 2005 to 2008, Washington Mutual m
ade certain loan
level representations and warranties in connection
with approximately
$165 billion of residential mortgage loans that wer
e originally sold or
deposited into private-label securitizations by Was
hington Mutual. Of
the $165 billion , approximately $78 billion has be
en repaid. In
addition, approximately $49 billion of the principa
l amount of such
loans has liquidated with an average loss severity
of 59% .
Accordingly, the remaining outstanding principal ba
lance of these
loans as of December 31, 2014 , was approximately $
38 billion , of
which $8 billion was 60 days or more past due. The
Firm believes that
any repurchase obligations related to these loans r
emain with the FDIC
receivership
You are correct to a degree. The only way anyone is going to speak up is if a lawsuit is filed for the 100+ billion in damages. Then the financial press will investigate, then the politicians will take notice, then the common newspapers will report.
But your right, none of that has happened, why, because no one cares about a small group of escrow holders.
You want justice, unfortunately it ain't going to happen. all imo
You want to shut me up, I have the latest jpm 10 k open, what page is the info you are referring to on. thx
regarding kmart, I am very familiar with the situation and there was an outcry and lawsuits and retail share holders still got zilch.
Aig, greenberg actually won the case, actually won, and the judge said no damages to share holders.
so what's your point, all imo
where is your documented proof. Since it is material to escrow holders why has the fdic-r not communicated to anyone that there is money there that will be coming back to you. all im
gladly, as long as the escrow lovers stop posting about speculation regarding 100+ billion, imo
I said that in jest, I hate jpm
? why was fdic-r not released:
Answer: JUST IN CASE THERE ARE A FEW MILLION THAT COMES IN FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER. MAYBE SOME REAL ESTATE CAN BE PROVEN TO ABSOLUTELY BE THE HOLDING COMPANIES, MAYBE A SMALL TRUST CAN BE PROVEN TO ABSOLUTELY BE THE HOLDING COMPANIES.
That's why, because this is not put to bed completely yet, there are still lawsuits out there, small in comparison to what you guys are talking.
The problem with your logic is you guys don't get that 100 billion is still a lot of money and will NEVER, EVER BE TURNED OVER WITHOUT A FIGHT. Your logic is so warped, where is jpm coming up with all those 100s of billions, I yea, I said it before, Jamie prints the money in his basement.
all imo
I have as much proof as you do.
You think 100+ billion is coming back to wamu escrows. You have no proof. The proof I have is common sense, the proof I have is understanding the game of distressed debt and valuation, the proof I have is we have seen zilch for escrow shares. The proof I have is a trustee never went after any claw backs, the proof I have is there are no lawsuits filed for claims in the 100 billion range. The proof I have is not one major financial news reporting company, barrons, bloomberg, wsj has ever reported on any big money that "may" be out there for wamu equity. That's my proof.
It's a heck of a lot stronger then your proof. all imo
Iv'e read it. Those monies may equate to a few 10s of millions at most. Do you not understand, wamu sp was trading at 40 cents a share before the seizure, yes, 40 cents. That is all jpm would have had to say, the assets were junk, look at the share price. At 40 cents a shares what would the market cap of wamu have been. It's not jpm's fault that wamu stock tanked to 40 cents before the seizure. Let me correct that, it is probably jpm's fault that wamu sp tanked but it can never be proven especially now.
You guys just can't see it can you. Remember the times. Funny thing, I hate jpm and jamie dimon and I'm defending the deal, not jamie boy. He won and jpm won and wamu share holders lost.
all imo
Here's your response, just in case there is a few million that washes out of all this over the next few years. Yes, I few million, maybe 10 million, maybe 50 million ( i doubt it) but in no way are we talking 100s of millions let alone billions. It's laughable.
Think about the ramifications, I can read the headlines now, fdick-r has been managing former wamu share holders money to the tune of 100+ billion dollars and now plans to return it to it's rightful owners, FORMER SHARE HOLDERS OF WAMU THAT SIGNED THE RELEASE.
Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds, do you realize the political ramifications, do you realize that this would open pandora's box and reporters and politicians would be all over this.
I don't know the most money fdick ever returned but I doubt it is over 100 million in the history of fdick. I'm not talking a quick seizure transaction I'm talking monies fdick would have had to steward until they turned it over. all imo
THERE IS ONLY SMALL CHANGE COMING BACK TO ESCROWS, WE NEED TO DEAL WITH IT.
all imo
fred, let me just ask you this, jpm pr'd that they found 30 billion in additional assets in the wamu rubble, they also stated that they hired the wamu commercial loan portfolio manager to run commercial paper at jpm. They also stated they acquired and sold off some commercial paper over the years, let's say the 30 billion brings in a billion a year in additional earnings, for a company like jpm with what? about 20 billion in earnings they could easily down play the commercial paper increase in earnings due to wamu using some gaap trickery.
You actually think jpm took 30 billion in cash off balance sheet to pay for wamu distressed commercial paper. That's a good one. You guys like to speculate that all this off book monies is coming back to wamu we just can't see it because it's off book. You do realize that 30 billion would be more than a years worth of earnings for jpm, and oh yea, no problem, it's all off book and jpm has 100s of billions in off book monies to throw around, right?. Actually, I think they just print the money at Jamie's basement. sheesh, I have a bridge in Alaska to sell you guys. all imo
let's see if your dreams come true, I hope they do because if you make money on escrows so will I.
lol error, dreams are the devils fodder. sorry, but it's action that counts and there has been little water falling down to escrows and watch what happens when everyone is paid out and share holders get a pittance if anything at all.
you guys are going to be here until 2018 and so will I if my wmih pays off. I was very positive that wmih is the real deal but not so sure now.
I surely hope that Will doesn't sell us out to kkr. Regarding kkr, I thought they were squeaky clean but not so sure now considering their recent sec fine. all imo
What you want people to believe is black magic. You can't actually think that there is 100+ billion in holding company assets that have been returned to fdic-r and are just sitting there waiting to be returned to wamu escrow. This is not what you believe is it.
I am done with this convo, the dreamers have won, my last post to you on the subject. imo
the jpm 10Q does not say we are returning 100 billion of wamu holding company assets back to the fdic-r. It no where states that wamu assets were misconveyed to jpm and are now being returned in the amount of ?
You guys are speculating. Lastly, if there was a few million coming back from jpm, lawsuits would have been filed and as many have said, bond b/a would have exploded and not sit at pennies.
imo
this is what other think not me, that it was only a deposit and they jpm owes wamu a lot more money, they don't, the deal is done. all imo
error, you just don't get it. I am in agreement with you, it's a travesty but it is by far not the only travesty that occurred during the financial crisis.
JPM was so lucky that they tried to buy wamu in the spring and knew the value so they bought wamu in a fire sale.
If you want to blame someone blame killinger for not getting in to the big boys club, ie, he is the one who coined the saying "to clubby to fail".
Wamu was an outsider and my gut says jamie dimon set wamu up by short selling shares and probably also calling all his hedge fund buddies to do the same and getting the rumor mill going that wamu was going to bk. The feds panicked because paulson told them to sell wamu to jpm.
Also, Rotella got it and sent a letter to the feds trying to explain they were strong but it was to late. What rottella should have done was got a guy like buffet or ichan or a power broker to explain to the feds that wamu was strong but he didn't. In his letter to the feds he told them wamu was not exposed to synthetic swaps but I bet the feds had no idea what that meant so they just took the easy way out and sold to what was perceived to be a strong bank, jpm. I still say wamu was much stronger than jpm because of jpm's synthetic cdo scam but wamu lost and jammie snake oil salesman dimon won. end of story.
I know you are angry and want justice but unfortunately justice is not going to happen so escrows lose. all imo
You actually believe that jpm cut a check for 1.9 billion and that was only a deposit and now have turned over 100+ billion to fdic-r and all fdic-r is waiting for is the final lawsuit to be settled and then they are going to turn over the cash, lol..
It would be the first time in history and it would raise a lot of questions regarding public company material events.
Regarding the wamu theft, I have said it before it was an injustice but it is the norm not the exception.
Whenever there is blood in the streets the rich know how to pick up the assets for pennies on the dollar, happens all the time.
Regarding your inability to find out any info on the new regs. Just google- JPM returns deposits of 100 billion because of new regs and I bet you find it. all imo
pick, thanks for the detailed response. The problem with our situation is that no one is fighting for the assets. In the lehman situation the trustee gave monthly updates regarding claw backs, lawsuits filed to get assets back etc.. In our situation, nothing, not even legit rumors filed by reporters.
As far as anyone except us is concerned there is nothing out there, wamu is dead, jpm has moved on, the fdick has moved on. Our attorneys have moved on, rosen is milking the estate as best he can and protecting the power players, ie, jpm. game over. imo
interesting post, it's not 30 billion in earnings, it's 30 billion in assets that generate some earnings. imo
sorry dude, I have performed more dd on what caused the financial crisis than most of you combined. Your dd is strictly based on trying to read the tea leaves of what assets were placed where during wamu's dismemberment. Problem is it's not relevant. What is relevant is that jpm has recently stated that they came up with another 30 billion out of the wamu ruble and many of you thought those were holding company assets and are coming back. They could have been but they surely are not coming back, imo
Have your escrow shares been life changing yet
Picks, do you or anyone else believe those were holding company assets. If so, how are they coming back since jpm pr'd they were part of the deal.
This is what so many don't want to open their eyes to.
all imo
You need experience to understand what happened and how the game is played. Many of you are probably right that there was significant holding company assets at one time but they are long gone. It's the name of the game when it comes to jpm.
Regulators simultaneously brokered an emergency sale of virtually all of Washington Mutual, the nation’s largest savings and loan, to JPMorgan Chase for $1.9 billion, averting another potentially huge taxpayer bill for the rescue of a failing institution.
The aforementioned statement says it all. "Virtually all .... What's not to understand.
Based on my research here is what probably happened.
1. The country was in panic mode, especially all the banks and all the government bodies regulating them, ESPECIALLY THE FDICK. THEY HAD TO PROTECT THE INSURANCE PROGRAM THAT IS ALL THEY CARED ABOUT.
2. It was the perfect lucky storm for jpm, they knew wamu and it's value and the fdick was desperate and the deal was cut.
3. Here is the point that you guys refuse to understand. JPM knew the holding company had substantial assets and more than likely talked the fdick into turning over the holding company books/assets as well or fdick didn't even realize that the holding company had assets and turned them over without a second thought.
My guess is that jpm told fdick we can clean up the mess later, wamu is a disaster and it's going to bring fdick down. Fdic agreed and jpm got everything. Fdic had no idea how to manage banking holding company assets so everything was turned over to jpm.
4. JPM has had 7 years to steal the holding company assets and that is just what they did. They sliced, diced, sold, bought, washed, laundered all of those assets away to the point that if and I say if anyone of power or lawsuits were filed it would take about 15 years of legal battles to unwind the jpm fraud.
NO ONE HAS THE DESIRE TO GO AFTER JPM, AND THUS THE ASSETS WILL REMAIN AS JPM ASSETS. THERE IS NO POLITICAL DESIRE AND SO FAR NO ONE HAS SUED JPM FOR THE HOLDING COMPANY ASSETS AND PROBABLY WON'T. WHY, A COUPLE OF REASONS, THE COST WOULD BE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS AND JPM CAN OUTSPEND ANYONE SUING THEM AND ANY MAJOR LAW FIRM IS PROBABLY DOING BUSINESS WITH JPM NOW OR WOULD WANT TO IN THE FUTURE SO THEY DON'T WANT TO RUIN THE BUSINESS RELATIONSHIP. IT IS HOW THE GAME OF HIGH POWERED LAW FIRMS AND BIG BUSINESS ESPECIALLY BANKS WORK.
You have to deal with the fact that jpm is to powerful and connected.
5. For anyone to actually think that the fdic is managing 100 billion of wamu holding company assets or that jpm is managing them for the fdic for escrows is ludicrous.
6. The final proof was the jpm pr describing how they came up with 30 billion in the wamu ruble. It basically means that all the holding company assets have been dealt with and now no one is going to go after them. They have now become jpm's for good.
I have asked this questions numerous times and not one response.
MANY OF YOU MUST HAVE THOUGHT THOSE COMMERCIAL PAPER ASSETS DESCRIBED IN THE RUBLE PR WERE WAMU HOLDING COMPANY ASSETS RIGHT. IF SO, DO YOU STILL THINK THEY ARE AND IF SO, HOW ARE THEY COMING BACK TO ESCROWS. JUST CURIOUS ON YOUR THOUGHTS.
The saddest part of this is that you guys are probably right and at one time there were substantial assets that could be considered only holding company assets, but you just don't understand how the game is played and why they are now gone for good.
all in my opinion and mine alone
The wamu deal is over, jpm bought everything of value for 1.9 billion. You guys can't actually think this was a deposit on the purchase, that is ludicrous.
I can see the headlines now. JPM senior executives, lead by jammie dimon mislead their share holders in every 10Q and 10K since 2009 by stating that they 'bought" the wamu bank and all it's assets for 1.9 billion when in reality it was only a deposit for the bank. JPM will now be paying wamu escrow holders the remaining 99% they owe them or 200 billion dollars.
The check is being drafted as we speak and every escrow holder will be a millionaires very shortly. OMG, the way some people think. lol,
Next headline, jpm shareholders sue every executive at jpm for fraud in describing the wamu deal.
Next headline, all jpm senior executive convicted of
fraud and will serve 5-50 years in jail, lead by jamie dimon, lol.
Amazing how some posters think, wow, I wonder how long before this post gets deleted. all imo lol