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123, i said it many time, like with most out of control situations, the holding company books were co-mingled with the bank books. That is what gave jpm the green light to steal all the holding company assets.
all imo
rockie, the reason the dd guys are less active is that they are finally grasping that as much dd as they have done and I think some of it very legit, they didn't/still don't understand how the game is played.
I think they actually thought that jpm and fdick were effectively stewarding all those assets for escrow holders just waiting until they could nicely wrap a bow around them and turn them over. Not stewarding, jpm was stealing them. Many also think/thought that jpm execs were scared that they would go to jail for the wamu theft, lol, so they would do what is right. That was one of the funniest comments I read.
Lastly, the opportunity ended for shareholders when susman sold out with the por7 without suing jpm and fdick for fraudulent conveyance among other things. When the trustee did not go after any clawbacks the fix was in.
jpm wins, wamu shareholders lose. Nothing to be surprised about, in bk's that is almost always what happens. Still many think wamu is different but it's not.
all imo
barefoot, what doc did this come from, thx
goodie, I agreed with you for a long time. Wait until there is blood in the streets and buy a solid company with solid earnings and growth potential. Get um dirt cheap and use the nol's wisely.
The other reason I'm souring a little on wmih is because of the cpmk insiders they brought in. cpmk never moved to a real exchange and when that happens and a company is making money, insider fishy games are being played. why stay on otcbb because they can hide what they are doing easier. Who knows what the insiders are doing at cpmk. Just saying, this is my gut talking.
I thought kkr was top notch, I don't think that as much. Why, their sec fine and their horrible investment in oil where they lost 5 billion. Now, that may not be all that much in kkr's world but my gut is telling me they are dirty.
I'm still holding but ......
all imo
you are comparing apples and oranges. As part of the bid that jpm submitted the text clearly shows that a "premium" is the dollar value above zero that an acquirer of an asset is willing to give to the fdick for that asset. Do you not understand that in most instances assets that are seized by fdick or whomever and turned over to fdick have very little value and most times liabilities are greater than assets. My thought based on my understanding and reading between the lines is that in a fdick bid dock par is zero. Please don't throw another definition at me, because I know from a generalist perspective what par means. Do you not also understand that fdick had the right to accept any dollar amount that they wanted.
Wamu holding tried to sue fdick for undervaluing the banking assets that were turned over to jpm for I think 13 billion, corrections welcome. Where did that get the holding company, I think they got the 4 billion back that was easily traceable but nothing else of substance. Then por7 hit and that gave the holding company the nols.
When we, ie, escrows have no control we are sitting ducks. Do you think the only reason I post is to defend a position to posters on a message board. Not! I AM HOPING THAT SOME HOW SOME WAY A BLACK SWAN HAPPENS AND A LAWSUIT IS FILED AGAINST FDICK AND JPM WITH A SMOKING GUN THAT SHOWS THAT THERE WAS FRAUD IN THE SALE OF WAMU TO JPM. AS EVERY DAY PASSES THAT IS BECOME MORE UNLIKELY.
I know many of you that have done such good dd think right is might but in the world of bks, seizures, etc.. it's the power players that almost always win, and when you have your own representation, ie, rosen, trying to screw you, how do you have a prayer.
Since I am on a rant, I am also losing faith in wmih as an investment. They have an unbelievable opportunity with 6 billion nols and they are sitting on their hands, why? With the latest fups by kkr, I am starting to get worried the fix is in again and kkr is going to screw wmih share holders for themselves and the insiders.
all imo
123, of course we can't trade escrows but to make decisions based on what you think is common sense, in all due respect watch out. Behind closed doors deals are being cut, big money is trying to steal any wamu holding company assets and the fdick is incompetent and only worried about political risk and their stupid fund, so who is looking out for escrows?
all imo
Not according to the document posted. It is based on whether the fdick accepts the bid and if so whether the acquirer pays a "premium" for the entity, ie, if they pay a "premium" it basically means the acquirer was willing to pay cash to the fdic for the entity. A ONE TIME PAYMENT! You guys want to read way to much into the word premium and take it out of context as it relates to the fdick document. The fdick accepted 1.888 bil for the bank. Payment in full. Ok, now you guys are going to say nowhere does it say payment in full, lol. Strike that if it makes you feel better
all imo
Why, what precedence are you using that would indicate nothing can happen until after DB.
I didn't remember ever reading that equity was officially cancelled by the court and part of the bk exit.
When I signed the release there was zero indication that shares in wamu inc. were cancelled. It just listed the ratio conversion, if I remember correctly. A new cusip does not necessarily mean that shareholders do not have rights. Let me play out a scenario that is improbable because we have no real representation but lets say former wamu shareholders sued and were able to prove fraud.
I'm sure you are right but did the court formally cancel equity.
I wonder if that would definitely stops former shareholders from having the right to sue. It must have been part of the por 7 approval but I just don't remember seeing it.
Thanks for the correction.
imo
I would think that since equity was not cancelled we would have a standing in the courts either through wmih or as an escrow class.
Better not discuss this to loud, rosenscum and his boys probably read this board and may try to cancel out our standing in the court, if we do have one.
I know they read this board and the private board in the past.
all imo
COMPLETELY AGREE, AND WE (ESCROW HOLDERS) WOULD HAVE STANDING IN THE COURT BECAUSE EQUITY WAS NOT CANCELLED. I have been saying this for years, lol.
imo
Come on, read the language.
What "premium" means is a positive dollar amount.
So jpm paid a positive dollar amount for the assets so they paid a "premium". In fdick world, zero is par, so if they paid above zero, it's called a premium and if they pay below zero it's called a discount.
That is exactly what the document you posted says.
There is in no way additional payments.
It is a premium to baseline zero.
all imo
This is the number that fdick was willing to accept. They had no idea at the time how valuable the assets were. Maybe not recently, but as late as a couple of years ago, some were saying jpm got screwed for taking over the wamu bank because of the liabilities, of course we know that to be false but at the panic time of Sept. 08, fdick did not know nor did many others. JPM played hardball, fdick had the right to sell wamu for whatever and jpm stole it.
Have you ever gotten a great deal on something and held your ground knowing it was a fantastic deal. At the time, jpm probably knew they got a great deal but fdick did not know as much. There were no other bidders, maybe because it was rigged but so be it, there were no other legit bidders. Citi submitted a higher bid but the bid was not accepted. I think it was for around 4 billion, if I remember correctly.
You guys want to sit back and say, look at the assets now, not look at the distress wamu was in at the time.
Believe me, I know wamu was strong but no one cares and thus jpm won and wamu shareholders lost. There will be no other jpm payments and I very much doubt any holding company assets are coming back. It's not the way these deals happen.
all imo
willwin, this is interesting. In the context of the fdick it's interpretation can mean the following imo.
When the fdick seizes an entity, they may not necessarily know if that asset is worth more than the liabilities. So in fdick simple terms, if money transfers from acquirer to the fdick, that could mean that they paid a "premium" for that asset, premium meaning that in the acquirers eyes the assets was worth more than the liabilities, thus jpm thought the assets were worth more than the liabilities by 1.88 billion so they paid a premium to acquire that asset.
There is no way, the term premium means that there will be future payments made to the fdick from jpm, That just does not makes sense especially in these types of deals. Both parties want to be done with the deal once the money changes hands and the assets are turned over. If that was not the case, every deal would drag on. Fdick wants deals done quick so they can close them out and assure that no insurance funds will be used.
The more I think about this, the more ludicrous it sounds that jpm would pay more or for that matter have stewarded holding company assets and give them back.
all imo
123, why are you waiting for the DB date when the judge makes his decision, why is that so important. DB sued for I think about 10 billion, so that would be the maximum payout right. So if there are 10s of billions why have other debt holders not been paid and why have escrows not received their first payout also.
Some of you guys think everything has to happen in sequence, the only reason for waiting is because there is not enough money to go around, the waterfall stops above shareholders!
all imo
I completely agree, at the time of the seizure a lot of things were not buttoned up because of the rush to get the bank into jpm's hands. Unfortunately, when that type of language is used you are talking small adjustments. Just like the fdick not being released, it is a minor point that some want to speculate is going to turn into 10s of billions of dollars. Wrongo
At least the 100+ billion plus crowd has seemed to have gone away, lol.
all imo
the person or team who wrote this post knows what they are talking about regarding how deals are structured.
One problem, there is not 36 billion coming back to the holding company. The assets that are claimed as part of the bk are abs's that were procured in the years leading up to 2009. Most of those assets are seasoned and/or have been written down or off and at most are worth 20% of originators value. Yes, that is originators and not original value.
This is a very thought provoking post and thanks for reposting. I may share this with a couple of friends at a major m&a law firm and see what they think.
I have asked them to dig around in the past about wamu holding and they can't find a thing regarding actual holding company assets other than what we know and they are connected.
I will still follow Occams razor. If wamu has 6 bil in nols and 700 mil in cash to do m&a I would wait for the right opportunity and buy a good asset when there is blood in the streets as opposed to dreaming about the fdick and jpm being good stewards of wamu holding company assets to the tune of 10s of billions and expect them to come back to wamu escrows without a fight. It never happened in the past and I can't see it now.
Be assured, I hope I'm wrong cause if the aforementioned post is right, I'm buying an island scuba diving, fishing and boating for the rest of my life. See what happens, you guys got me dreaming, smack, reality just set in, it ain't going to happen.
all imo
fwh, sure it is, that's why wamu holding listed 32 billion in assets as part of their bk, not only that, a significant amount of those assets are on deposit at the wamu bank and also a significant portion of those are shares in the bank. wow.
all imo
sure fwh, wamu holding submits 32 billion in assets in their bk with most of those assets being stock equity, ouch.
sorry dude, wrongo.
all imo
fred, you are killing me, the more a look into this the more you guys are being led to slaughter.
You do realize that the lists you gave me are all abs, ie, asset backed securities, and are not worth 20% of what is listed. These are not mbs's but abs's secured by credit card loans, second mortgages, high interest commercial loans, etc..
Yes there is value there but watch what you ask for, this is junk assets, especially from the years of everyone gets credit and second mortgages. wow, this is what you are banking on.
On paper, it may look like 20 billion especially since wamu holding probably threw the kitchen sink at the asset list but in no way is the value worth anywhere near there.
I will state it again, it would not surprise me if jpm culled the good assets and leave the junk. Who is going to fight them.
all imo
shadow, I didn't catch that, most of it is stock "assets", that is how they came up with 32 billion, wow. stock assets are worthless unless a judge says because of ..... they are worth ....
am i understanding that correctly, sorry, trying to do a million things at once, lol.
all imo
just curious, does it say wamu holding company asset corp. or wmih asset corp. or this belongs to wamu holding company assets corp. it's all speculation.
all i know is jpm will not give anything back without a fight in the courts, they never do.
and why has the "examiner" not filed a report to the courts stating what is going on. In my experience, a bk trustee files reports, monthly or quarterly. Why no filings, there are still wamu holding company debts that need to be paid out of any monies.
all imo
fred, nice research.
I wish I could agree with you, but I don't. It's been how many years and nothing has come back. Why? because in their own words the holding company said 32 billion in assets, and jpm is playing hard ball and who ever is looking for those assets sure must be having a tough time finding them. How many years has this been going on.
Like I said, the research done alludes to the fact that there were/are assets there. What we disagree on is that jpm is not going to give any of them up with out a protracted fight. So my guess is that they will be whittled down to a pittance of their true value if anything at all. If you are the "examiner" and jpm says we will see you in court and tie up these assets for 10 years and you still may not get them, what do you think whomever is in charge of clawing back those assets will do, they will negotiate, pay all debts off and leave the waterfall above shareholders. Watch and learn.
all imo
fwh, I answered this a million times, because there may be some small amount of assets that may trickle in. Susman/Rosen will release them when appropriate. My guess is that a few 10s of millions may still trickle in.
all imo
to clarify, see below:
The holding company claimed more than $32 billion in assets, but noted that “a significant portion” is in deposits at the bank operations that were seized.
green, you and az have done a fantastic job trying to put the pieces of this sad puzzle together. You make sense on many points, and are probably correct regarding some wamu holding company assets. What also makes sense is that wamu was the biggest seizure in history of banking and as such justice should happen.
Unfortunately, that's not real world. There is no way substantial assets are being negotiated behind closed doors. Just no way. Info would have leaked years ago, the bk trustee would have tried to claw back the assets. Lawsuits would have been filed, Reporters would be all over this in a heart beat if their was even 2 billion coming back to the estate.
that's the problem with bk's, the assets get sliced, diced, laundered, washed, given away for tax reasons and strategical positioned so they are hard to trace and no one does it better than jpm.
green, answer my one question that people like yourself refuse to answer: What's your take on the pr that jpm put out regarding the 30 billion of wamu assets they found in the rubble. Wouldn't you have thought those were holding company assets, they surely were not bank deposits, right.
all imo
green, you found the holy grail, 2 documents from 2010, just curious, it's been 5 years, what did the examiner find.
nugget, sure I have, name one point I have been wrong on. How much money have you received so far for your wamu escrows, zero, nada, zilch, just keep waiting and dreaming.
imo
halvo, if i understand your post, you think that jpm and fdick were caught stealing wamu holding company assets and are so scared they have given them all back and are just stewarding them and waiting for the right time to turn them over to escrows.
Would you like to buy the alaskan bridge to nowhere, I will sell it to you for your escrow shares, lol
all imo
bban, the wamu holding company said it very straight forward in their bk docs that the holding company had 8 billion in debts, 32 billion in assets with a significant amount "deposited" in the wamu bank at the time of seizure.
Very straight forward don't you think. There are no additional assets that wamu holding had or they would have listed them in their bk docs.
So, the question is how does the wamu holding company get that money back from jpm without a fight, well they don't. So why have they not sued, my guess is that wamu was in such a panic that the holding company co-mingled their books with the wamu bank books. If this is true and I think it is based on how holding company gaap works. So basically wamu holding used that money to re-capitalize the bank not thinking in any way shape or form that they could be seized.
Look at duetsche bank they sued jpm and lost. My guess is they were after that holding company asset. I would even bet if the fdick wants that money for whatever reason they will have to sue jpm. Good luck. Talk to me after the lawsuit if filed and 10-15 years down the road. The waterfall will stop above escrow almost for certain, it is the bk way.
all imo
Really, kmart, I never brought that scenario up before, lol, you do know escrows more than likely worthless imo
What, the holding company lawyers wrote the bk doc. Your telling me they underestimated the value of the holding company assets, yep, that makes sense.
all imo
Fact, wamu holding company stated in their bk that they had 8 billion in debt and 32 billion in assets, most as deposits at wamu bank, so they say. FACT!
WHAT COMMISSIONS, THIS IS NOT A CONTINGENCY SCENARIO as far as I understand it.
I received several private messages and thought I would answer here as well.
Question 1, why are you so sure that there are not 100+ billion in holding company assets.
Answer: Because the holding company made such statements when they originally filed their bk papers, they stated 32 bil in assets and 8 bil in debts.
Question 2. why do you think that jpm has the assets and has sliced, diced, laundered those assets to make it difficult for the holding company to get them back.
Answer: I know jpm had/have the majority of the assets because again, the wamu holding company said as such in their bk filing. WAMU HOLDING STATED THAT THE MAJORITY OF THEIR ASSETS WERE IN THE WAMU BANK AS "DEPOSITS". Do you understand what they said, as deposits. So we know that jpm has/had those assets.
My logic for why it will be very difficult for wamu holding is because JPM HARDLY EVER GIVES ANYTHING BACK ONCE THEY HAVE IT IN THEIR POSSESSION UNLESS THEY ARE FORCED AND THE ONLY WAY I HAVE SEEN THEM FORCED IS THROUGH A LAWSUIT OR A STRONG HAND FROM A TRUSTEE OR POLITICAL PRESSURE, none of this has occurred.
Secondly, the word "deposits" is problematic, why, because of the recapitalization scenario. it will not be difficult for jpm and their high powered attorneys to destroy wamu holding in court regarding what those funds actually represented. Destroy wamu bod, bean counters, ceo's presidents (current at the time and former). Do you actually think that anyone formerly associated with wamu wants to open old wounds. They are in hiding and want this all to go away.
Let me add one more point, let's say jpm is caught dead to right, do you not think there would be a huge haircut for those assets, as long as bond holders are paid off, no one cares, that is the bk way, pay off creditors as best you can, try hard to pay off bond holders as best you can and screw shareholders, that is where the waterfall steps, above shareholders.
You guys want to dream of all this money that is being nicely stewarded by nice people just waiting to give the assets back. It ain't happening.
all imo
ot: so true
bban, that's a good one, never heard that saying before. yep, you can't trade um, maybe I'm going to be dead wrong and my escrows will make me rich, in that case I sure would be the lucky idiot, lol.
all imo
bban, i just don't think so, sussman sold out imo, he took his money and ran. he got the shareholders the nol's and I think his firm thinks that was good enough.
I asked this before, can anyone tell me, how much sussman billed the estate over the past 3 years vs. how much rosencrap billed.
all imo
bban, you are right, it was conspiratorial, jpm, the arrogant sop's they are, figured that their ponzi scheme involving synthetic cdo's didn't need to be insured. So they self insured, unlike goldman, who insured through aig.
Paulson had to force bairs hand and have the fdic seize wamu to save jpm. That is a conspiracy, did jpm naked short with all their buddies to bring down wamu, did jpm plant news stories that wamu branches were not going to open, my guess is yes they did.
Bottom line, it worked and jpm was saved. If rottella and killinger (sp) were heavyweights, it is not far fetched that wamu could have bought jpm but it wasn't meant to be, jpm won and wamu lost.
Jim Cramer just a few minutes ago on cnbc said that at the time all banks were not liquid. He was making a point based on the market crash of recent.
all imo
bban, I am losing faith in you, lol. You are letting emotion play into what you say. We all know wamu was stolen, we all know that fdick had one agenda which was to make sure that the insurance fund did not have to be used for wamu.
The point you are missing is no one of power cares. The other point you are missing is that no one is standing up against fdick and jpm.
Many just don't get it, the events that occurred during the financial crisis are long gone, people, politicians, the feds, no one other than wamu escrow holders give a darn about wamu and what happens.
The political baggage alone if wamu escrows were paid out is not worth it to anyone accept the few escrow holders. It is almost laughable that so many think that right is might
What is might is power and money and until someone ponies up a few hundred million in a legal piggy bank there won't even be a fight.
Who is going to go up against jpm and fdick with a hope of a win. Power players like sure things if they are going to ante up that kind of money. Until that lawsuit if filed we don't have a prayer.
Don't you think the lehman shareholders feel the same, how about bear sterns, how about mf global, how about countrywide, lol, share holders in those companies feel the same, and lastly, how about kmart or calpine. How about aig, greenberg won in court against them and share holders got nothing and he had billions to fight aig and still lost if money is the benchmark. They were all shafted.
Look at the markets today, you think anyone cares about 8 years ago. lol
all imo