ALL: The time has come - this board is being closed to further posting. Those desiring to continue any on- or off-topic discussion can do so on some other site. This action is not up for debate or reconsideration so please, no PMs to any of us regarding the matter.

No wonder you didn't come after me with a ball-peen hammer!

Most IHUB males are overly sensitive, with low self-esteem, no sense of humor and many irrational beliefs.

There are chips & salsa and hundreds of beer-farts soaking into their cushions, waiting like chemical landmines for some sorry SOB to sit down too fast and set them free.

There are chip-crumbs between the cushions from years of not being able to get off of it in the mornings, and eating whatever was in arm’s reach before passing out again.



Click Here: Mr. Pennystock, is your next job replacing the urinal-cakes in a Weinerschnitzel men's room?

I TOTALLY agree with you about people needing to take responsibility for their actions, but I do not think that the casino's need to make it that much easier for someone to drain their bank account. I see it as greed on their part. They (the casino) will probably get that persons money anyway, but I don't think they should dangle their bank account right in front of their nose.

Responsibility works both ways, and their is corporate responsibility to be taken in to consideration here too. Of course, they want to improve their bottom line, but at what cost??? The demise of a loyal customer??? They are making such huge profits to begin with that I just think it is over kill to place ATM's right on the casino floor.

What if you are unisexed?

Very funny, anti-Fred, but one's gender is of no consequence whatsoever on a stock messageboard, or ideally should not be.

Newly

Isn't the casino just doing what every other successful business does; i.e. making it easier for consumers to use its product?

I don't hold casinos who offer legal gambling responsible for the pocketbooks of people who get addicted any more than I think MickieD's is responsible for obese people eating too much of their product. Shifting the responsibility for the consequences of one's action to someone else allows the real villain (oneself) off the hook for having to change one's own behavior.

C'mon, America, start taking some individual responsibility for the consequences of your own actions!

Newly

Ahhhhh, I always forget that. That would explain the verbosity.

Amazing, but not original by any means (IIRC I first ran across that particular analogy in reading about chaos theory). And my book is not new, in fact I have been throwing my book before pigs for years now with no discernible effect whatsoever, not even a small breeze occurring as a result in NYC.

But. . .uh. . .one little correction, Paulie. He is a She. . .

Newly

Without a doubt!!!

I can still deal with stupid people who make a one time mistake. It's the people who refuse to recognize their stupidity that drives me crazy. Anyone who calls someone a "basher" should be labeled with a big red "M" for mullet.
Calling someone a "basher" is a sign you've been sucked into the abyss.

Yep...the temptation is just too great for people to be spending money they probably would not have spent had those ATM's not been so readily accessible.

Wow! Your Butterfly/Amazon/Arctic analogy was amazing!

No wonder you compiled those pearls of wisdom into your new book:



Click Here: Penny Investors! When you stand next to an open window --- does your head whistle?

I'd agree. The first time I saw ATM's in casinos was in Tahoe, and thought it to be very costly...especially to the couple who went with us.

I believe that people who wish to gamble should go to casinos with a limited sum of money they are willing to lose and get it out of their system.

My wife and I used to have a summer home in Cape May, New Jersey and we would go up to Atlantic City once in a while for a night out. We would always only bring a few hundred each and we would either leave with money in our pocket, or the amount we lost was no big deal.

I can remember the first time that we saw that Casino's had now installed ATM's on their floor. Personally, I'm against that. That is just making it too easy for someone that may already have a gambling problem to just make it worse. I can only imagine how many husbands, or wives, were out gambling at the casino and cleaning out the bank account while the other sat at home unaware of the money being withdrawn.

Of course, there would be nothing to stop them from just going to the ATM at the bank and doing the same thing but I think placing those ATM's right on the casino floor for "convenience" is over the top.

Missing from this model is what everyone on this board does, that being no production of a value, only a transfer of money between investors, as in everyone wants to obtain the money of others. Every time you make a profit, its a lost of another(s). No value is created for society, only a transfer of one person's money to another person.


And who is to say that other person will not make better use of that money to enhance society? And for that matter, just who is the arbiter qualified to determine what value any particular action has? A butterfly flapping his wings in the Amazon may appear to have no value while in fact his action helps to create a blizzard in the Arctic. Everything is interlocked and synergistic, and who can say for sure what has value to society and what doesn't.

I can say this for sure -- trading has created value in my life, and I am a part of society, however small.

Newly

Doug, While we Americans have an overdeveloped sense of what is fair play and the importance of equality of opportunity, equality is a concept that does not, in fact, exist in nature. Taking your argument out to it's logical conclusion, let's say you allow both a genius and a moron the equal opportunity of taking an exam to qualify for the single available seat in a medical school, does not the genius have an innate advantage over the moron? Is it immoral, therefore, for the genius to succeed in the exam where the moron has no chance of success and claim the prize? Obviously, it is neither immoral nor unethical, but neither is it really fair because nature has not distributed her gifts fairly between these two people. To be truly fair, all life would have to be lived at the lowest possible denominator, the level of the least-gifted person.

Let's take this analogy a step further. Let's say the moron decides to cheat on the exam and wins the seat. All he has done, really, is even the playing field to make up for his intellectual inferiority, so does that mean his action was moral and ethical? Not in my opinion it doesn't.

You cannot make everyone innately equal, but you can give everyone an equal opportunity to apply and develop their natural gifts. So, let's say a genius and a moron decide to try their hands at making money in the markets. If the genius succeeds and the moron fails, is that immorality on the part of the genius? Not if he plays the game fairly affording the moron a chance of success equal to his own. But if the moron uses fraud and deceit to manipulate the odds of winning in his favor and level an uneven playing field, that, IMO, is morally and ethically wrong.

Our entire form of society and government is based upon the Rule of Law, which guarantees equal and fair opportunity in the pursuit of individual happiness. It is not equal and fair to take advantage of another through fraud and cheating. It is fair to apply one's God-given talents morally and ethically to obtain one's goals.

Newly

You are barking up the wrong tree there Doug.
I believe in buying stocks that have earnings and are going up because profits are being made, people are producing something, the economy is growing because of them.
I believe no one should have an unfair advantage via inside information or much worse, creating a false market and dumping shares for the sole purpose of screwing over shareholders.
I believe companies that don't actually exist should be immediately eliminated.
I believe companies should be audited by an unbiased source and deemed to have value of some sort before being allowed to go public.
I believe that people who wish to gamble should go to casinos with a limited sum of money they are willing to lose and get it out of their system. Of course I think they should pay their bills first.
I think lotteries should be outlawed as well.

BTW, I don't think you have made it clear what your stance is. I always find your perspective interesting, if not somewhat cryptic.

The bop.gov website keeps track of his birthday too.

Yesterday he was 28, today......:

Do you NOW understand why I pleaded with rookie investors to shun pennies even back in the pre-dot com days? How many people used to reply that they only "played" with "money they could afford to lose."

We see now the damage stupid speculation inflicted on the U.S. and world economy. At least stock market carnage is limited because of lessons learned from the Dot Com collapse. Accounting is much better. Large corps and auditors are generally honest now. Mercifully margin buying was limited, a lesson from the Depression, thank God!

The real damage was from dumb and greedy real estate lending. In that regard American's look like Einsteins compared to some other countries (ie. Ireland)

As for that "play money" people thought they could afford to lose, many are discovering that pot was their retirement fund.

2Day is Matt's Birthday ... !!

One side says that investing in Penny Stocks relates to Gambling at a Casino..

The other side says "NO" and that there is a difference!

Actually, dpb, you're not looking at the larger picture -- the discussion is really about whether it is moral and ethical (despite being illegal) to take advantage of others by foul means (cheating, fraud). We have barely touched upon the ethics or morality involved in taking advantage of others by fair means, LOL.

Newly

And people seem to forget Matt spent weeks.... Months... Possible years, helping plan and orchestrate multiple scams to rip people off.

It wasn't like a spur of the moment stupid decision.

He put a lot of time and effort into it and obviously enjoyed the heck out of it while it lasted.

There is a difference

Between "Investing in a company" and "Buying shares on the stock market.

First, investing in a company would be buying the shares directly from the company and the company then uses those proceeds to further the business.

Buying penny shares on the stock market, you could be buying from the company but probably are bailing out another bagholder. Either way, it is best to stay out of pennies.

Consider SO or another utility stock if you wish to "Invest".

SO pays 4%+ dividend and has a dividend reinvestment plan that allows you to buy shares direct from the company at a 5% discount from the market price. Those shares never enter the market. They are never Pledged. repledged, hypothecated, or generally used against the investor in any way.

I had a guy on one of my boards

threaten to blow his brains out. this stuff is no joke

http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_%28A_to_Z%29/Stocks_I/threadview?m=tm&bn=100100&tid=2630&mid=2630&tof=1&frt=2


for those of you who know my current situation 1-Mar-10 04:11 am
know that I will be making plans shortly... to LIVE ON SCOTT SANDS DOORSTEP out of my car.

If I lose my house because he's a CROOK; I'm going to look him straight-in-the-eye before I shoot myself.


http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_%28A_to_Z%29/Stocks_I/threadview?m=tm&bn=100100&tid=2610&mid=2629&tof=2&frt=2

Re: Shares dwindling... 1-Mar-10 04:08 am
I feel your pain; I'm in 9M large @.0038. Have even had several email responses from Mr.Scott Sands past few months inquiring as to situation of items mentioned in prior P/Rs (like "No R/S").

10 months I've invested more and more into Ingen -- at present my ENTIRE savings (as I've had to cash-out my 401k last week to cover mortgage payments this and next few months).

When I read the article about FBI/SEC/DOJ investigating NIR Group and mentioning Ingen -- I wanted to scream! frankly I am curious how it will turn out, and even suggested to Scott he STOP PAYING THEM IMMEDIATELY! which in turn means NO SHARE INCREASE!

http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=48933624

ckaminsky Member Profile ckaminsky Share Tuesday, April 13, 2010 6:10:05 PM
Re: bly post# 7273 Post # of 9003
Basher, no. Fuming MAD, Indeed!!

Let me fill you in on my story -- I heard of Oxyview about this time last year, after watching it a while and learning more about the product I invested my entire $30k HELOC on it. One month later I lost my job and had been on unemployment 9 months... fighting constantly with MD Unemployment office since I hadn't recieved any benefits checks. All the while holding out hope that the PRs were *true* yada yada. Now I'm working again, but I've also lost 66% of my investment while paying 3.1% on the balance I borrowed. I had to cash-out my 401k just to survive, it was pointless to try to sell my 10M shares of IGNT -- I tried, and not a damn sell executed because NOBODY WANTS IT! IGNT.PK IS TOXIC -- people won't touch it anymore. We're stuck with it.

I almost lost my house over this POS and have absolutely ZERO faith in the CEO anylonger. Hmm, lets see... if 500+ shareholders voted AGAINST 8B dilution yet the company went ahead and did it anyways.... I smell a lawsuit.

-- not to mention I'd tried to contact a few international "customers" who've been PR'd as having agreements to purchase Oxyviews -- not a single one was willing to talk.

Mr.Sands should go to jail. Period! EOM

MegaTrader, sorry, Matt deserves jail and more for his crime, he did willingly and knowingly commit federal crimes, he friggin admitted to them!!!, white collar crime is not a victimless crime as you seem to be implying!!!

re: "Don't hate the player, hate the game."

Imagine if there was no stock market.

Imagine if banks only collected money for safe keeping, where you pay them a fee for the storage.

If you want to buy a car or a house, you can without having the full cash, all you need do is sign a contract that states that you will pay a certain amount each month for a number of years directly to the person or company that created it. Eventually this will become a full-circle flow of productive work where raw materials are obtained by workers getting a paycheck, workers making a paycheck putting the raw material into a usuable form, workers working in parallel to support these workers, like in food survices.

Everyone needs to produce and create a value that others need for themselves to do the same.

Its a circle where the flow of producing a value is exchanged between everyone.

work - paycheck - buy from a place that pays workers to produce what you buy so the these workers can buy from what that initial worker worked for a paycheck

Companies don't need today's stock market, all they need are investors that invest into a company that will hopefully grow and make a profit and give them back their seed money with a portion of profits added, this with the understanding that they don't get todays shares for the buy/hold/sell cycle, but as a transfer of their cash for a return on the company being successful.

Missing from this model is what everyone on this board does, that being no production of a value, only a transfer of money between investors, as in everyone wants to obtain the money of others. Every time you make a profit, its a lost of another(s). No value is created for society, only a transfer of one person's money to another person.

Question to those saying Matt is a bad person because he "hurts" others.

Do you acknowledge the hurt you caused when you make a profit, taking money from people less able to trade as well as you do.

You say you are a good trader, having an advantage over most others.

Thats not fair.

Forget the laws of the land as moral support since we know the system is corrupted.

Or will you say that your moral stand is o.k. since taking advantage of another is legal by laws made by the system that by all accounts is criminal or simply incorrect.

fung_derf
"... logic that it's alright to rip people off because they should know better is outrageous."

But its o.k. for you to take a profit knowing that person(s) taking the lost to transfer their money to you don't know better. But somehow you don't think you ripped them off since you followed the laws that allowed you to legally remove their money from them in a manner not unfront and truthful.

fung_derf
Few are saying what a "terrible" person Matt is. What they are saying is he should be prosecuted and punished for admitting to a crime. You think he should be rewarded for a clever strategy.

No, he acknowleges that Matt got caught doing something outside the boundaries where by law its o.k. to rip people off these ways, but not those ways.

The Original dpb5!
Matt didn't go to a casino to win his money. Had he done that and won the money, he'd be innocent because his "gambling" didn't affect other people!

o my, o my, o my, so each profit taken doesn't affect the other person that got a lost, o my :)

"The best laid plans of mice men and Matt gang aft agley."

#msg-46867003
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Doug

This is quickly becoming my newest most FAVORITE BOARD on IHUB...

Very interesting dialogue going on here...

One side says that investing in Penny Stocks relates to Gambling at a Casino..

The other side says "NO" and that there is a difference!

Here's my two cents...

Matt didn't go to a casino to win his money. Had he done that and won the money, he'd be innocent because his "gambling" didn't affect other people!

But, when Matt decided to "gamble" to help manipulate share prices that effected other people who were "playing the game" he directly caused the loss of money to others. That's not how it works at a casino.

Imagine this... if, at a casino, a big Press Release flashed on the screen saying "YOU have picked a LUCKY machine! Nobody has won the big jackpot yet, but this machine is only hours away from a REALLY BIG PAYOFF!"

Sorry, but casino games don't "predict" or "suggest" who will win next how soon.

Further .. ppl go to a casino for a quick burst of entertainment .. ppl DO NOT invest in a Penny Stock for entertainment.

As sad as I am for Matt, he manipulated the very rules that he originally set out to fix.

Been there, done that. Once he gets incarcerated, I wouldn't want to be holdin' any Krispy Kreme stock.



Click Here: The economy is so bad that the Mafia had to lay-off 5 judges.

Where is Paulie when you need him? Maybe that would be a great Photoshop. =D

AHA! So you do recognize it's illegal. Well we made some progress tonight.

Do you understand they have lobbyists?

Given by the number of families and societies casinos have destroyed these "regulations" have clearly fallen short.

LOL! Now you've crossed the line! Comparing Matt to Ronald McDonald! I will not stand for that.

I have not dealt with or traded penny stocks for years and I never did anything illegal.

As much as I may disagree with the law, I myself would not care to land in jail. I'm much too good looking.

This must have been satisfying to Bre-X victims:

"Walsh moved to the Bahamas in 1998, still professing his innocence. Two masked gunmen broke into his home in Nassau, tying him up, and threatened to shoot him unless he turned over all his money. The incident ended peacefully[citation needed], but three weeks later, on June 4, 1998, David died of a brain aneurysm."

I guess I was thinking of Federhoffer the #2 who is still in the Caribbean.

Bre-X did bring about huge changes in Canadian stock regulation.

I will say this and I know this to be true.

I do not judge. But in my humble opinion, Matt is not one ounce more guilty of any unethical activity than any casino executive, pork barrel politician, or greasy hamburger restaurant owner.

All of them thrive on addiction and compulsion on weaker people, yet they roam the streets free and Matt will not.

Fair? I don't think so.

Capitalism yes. Criminal system, no. Can't believe you can't discern the difference.
I think, like everyone else, I'll leave you to ramble. Although you never did tell us if you involve yourself with those wonderful pump and dump investments.

Do you understand that casinos have regulations? I guess you are opposed to that to?

This is capitalism. It's not perfect, but it's the fairest of available systems.

I think you're the one who is confused.

Do you understand human psychology and how casinos are crafted to foster addiction and over gambling?

You're killing me dude. How can the average person have inside information? You think investing should just be about timing and jumping out and screwing your fellow posters.

That's how it is much of Europe and Asia. Why not open up the markets and stop preventing intelligent people from making money because a few people didn't do their homework?

Probably right nextdoor to EVO!

Newly

No but maybe hung by his thumbs... what i don't see in your post is any sense of the folks that got ripped off... you make it seem like its a victimless crime...

Now Matty helped me time over time over the years... but now I wonder if that was just to gain my confidence to make me another one of those sheep that got sheared... it sort of erases the good.

but I am sure the whole story is not out for all to see.. we just see little bits and pieces of it...

then I wonder if EVO is out there with the last bank account waiting for MATTY to get out...

real

And I've always wondered about that poor Enron accountant who supposedly killed himself in his Mercedes. . . Didn't stop the truth from coming out in the end.

Newly

He lived "scot-free" for a short time. Walsh died in 1998.

Wait! Women are illegal?? I'm in big trouble.
poker takes a posted rake. Slot machines list what the house edge is.
You really don't understand the difference between gambling and investing, do you?

How is a casino ever legitimate?

Every game is in the house's favor. They have psychological barriers everywhere. Alcohol, half dressed women, bells and ringing. Yeah that's legit. Makes penny stocks look pretty timid. At least people are sober when they buy the stock.

Bre-X was Canadian, but you are right. Former CEO is living scot-free in the Caribbean last I heard.

Few are saying what a "terrible" person Matt is. What they are saying is he should be prosecuted and punished for admitting to a crime. You think he should be rewarded for a clever strategy.

LOL! You gotta be kidding me. Yeah! By all means, lets not have regulations involved with the largest segment of money in the world!
BTW, had hedge funds have more policies involved, AIG, most banks, FMNA, and Freddie Mac wouldn't be in the financial trouble they got into.
Are you aware of the Glass Steagall Act?