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Yes, 8Ks must be filed within 4 BUSINESS days...key word business
Thanks CBA09,
Your second item addresses the issues I was thinking about when I posted the question.
We are then left with a major issue. Assume that assets come back, this year, next year, or further in the future: which entity would be entitled to recover those assets? WMILT or WMIH. It has been and continues to be my position that WMILT is the legal successor to WMI with respect to anything not specifically assigned or transferred to WMIH by the POR.
TD had another line on their site 8K must be filed in 4 days of event, unless I read it wrong.
Good info, keep it coming.
clawman, well what say you? Two 8Ks in same week discussing the very topic you tried to run over me with...you are too funny!
It's about the satisfaction and discharge of the Second Lien Indenture and the consequent release of the lien on the assets of the Company that secured the Second Lien Notes:
Item 1.02 Termination of a Material Definitive Agreement
As previously reported, on March 19, 2012, WMIH Corp. (successor to WMI Holdings Corp. and Washington Mutual, Inc.) (the “ Company ”) issued $20 million aggregate principal amount of its 13% Senior Second Lien Notes due 2030 (the “ Second Lien Notes ”) under an indenture, dated as of March 19, 2012, between the Company and Delaware Trust Company, successor to The Law Debenture Trust Company of New York, as trustee (“ Trustee ”), as amended by that certain First Supplemental Indenture, dated May 11, 2015, by and among WMI Holdings Corp., WMIH Corp. and Trustee (collectively, the “ Second Lien Indenture ”).
The Second Lien Notes have been fully redeemed by the Company and in connection therewith, the Second Lien Indenture was satisfied and discharged as of October 2, 2017 as provided under the terms of the Second Lien Indenture, which resulted in the release of the liens on the assets of the Company that secured the Second Lien Notes.
Ref: Any idea as to timing? Are we looking at sometime before or after the end of 2018?
Comment:
I believe timing will be two fold:
1) That what happens within the finalization of receivership before the end of Sept 2018,
2) That what happens outside of the receivership, specific to Bankrupcty remote entities - SPE's. This, I strongly believe, is were the lions share of recovery will come. Each SPE / Trust is governed by the expressed language of each PSA. There a many and most likely many have reached ripeness while others continue until to carry out payment compliance to investors / certificate holders.
These stand alone SPE's have many accounts that keep separate various types of revenue. I know from first hand experience the amount of retained assets within can be massive. Many Trusts have 6-7 tranches with 10's of Thousands of loans in each tranche.
When a given Trust's PSA has completed it's fulfillment to certificate holders a provision called "Accounts Removable" takes place. But before the actual removable is initiated a reconciliation of "Retained Assets" takes place. This is the vouching of reports to $ in the captive cash accounts along with any remaining over "Over Collateralized Pooled Receivables." Then a true-up, namely $ distribution is performed by the Master Servicer. Here, from my experience, the Holding Company (WMI) would be the receiver of these retained assets.
Now the question is when will this happen. Since this is outside of Bankruptcy it could have happened with each fulfillment of PSA. Then again it could be ( for completed "True-ups" ) in tandem with the finalization of Receivership. Then of course, as those that meet fulfillment a payout accordingly.
~ The WMIH-Corp Debt Is Now' Paid As Of 10/02/2017 ~
WMIH Files 8K - Termination Of Definitive Agreement >WMIH
Just copied and pasted this from TDA...haven't read it yet.
This isn't a link just the headline and the timeline hasn't happened yet. 8:30pm tonight
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/933136/000119312517305937/d470625d8k.htm
:) Talk next happy hour all the best. GG4
Jest, all you need to know for now, is yes it will happen relative to when WMIH files their 8K moving forward.
Thank you LG for letting me know about happy hour and Bob for reminding me. Thanks again both of you. Thank you both for the information over the years, a couple of very smart guys, along with a few others. Glta
All escrows will be paid right away when this company is done fore it's the only way it can happen now
Alright...to anyone who knows the answer....
Exactly HOW and WHEN will Safe Harbor assets get relinquished? Are there examples of this from other BKs which we can refer? How does the timing work? Before BK close or after? Ramifications of timing?
I know this has been posted before, but WHAT document actually STATES that LT is the ONLY owner of S/H assets? Is there ANY scenario where these would not/could not come back to LT.
NOTE: I am NOT NOT talking about how many assets are here.
In a scenario where the waterfall DOESN'T make it all the way to Class 19 & 22, would this affect ownership? Piers? My understanding is that this is not possible as this is the sole PURPOSE of Safe Harbor protection, but I want to make sure.
Sorry for all of the questions, but I have been listening for a while to see if I could understand from the board a better way to ask these questions.
PLEASE do not answer if you THINK you know....I need consensus on the answers....I think we all do.
Jest
Any idea as to timing? Are we looking at sometime before or after the end of 2018?
Also, the LT is the legal successor to WMI. WMIH is not. So do you agree that any retained assets that are returned would have to go to the LT for distribution?
Ref: CBA09 What led you to invest in WAMU and did any of your co-workers feel the same way?
Comment:
My banking experience. I am semi- retired CPA.
Ref: CBA09, are you optimistic that escrows will be rewarded nicely? Nicely, as in 3 to 4 bucks per escrows share or more.
Comment:
Waaay too little. Just ponder this; some of the "Shrewdest Investors" in the world have reserved a seat here and been here over nine years. Even before they were here I was thinking massive. There presence validates my opinion.
That's encouraging coming from you. Thanks! Care to elaborate a little on why you are so optimistic? By the way, I changed my post to this, "CBA09, are you optimistic that escrows will be rewarded nicely? Nicely, as in 3 to 4 bucks per escrows share or more".
I would really be interested in your response to my "3 to 4 bucks per escrows share or more" query.
CBA09 What led you to invest in WAMU and did any of your co-workers feel the same way?
Ref: CBA09, are you optimistic that escrows will be rewarded well?
Comment:
On a scale of 1 to 10 and ten being the highest level - 10! I have too much experience within the banking industry and specifically Pooling and Serving Agreements (PSA) to believe otherwise.
CBA09, are you optimistic that escrows will be rewarded nicely? Nicely, as in 3 to 4 bucks per escrows share or more.
Paid into WELLS ACCTS so far and the rest, well you get it
Ref: Our interests are in what was OUTSIDE OF THE WMI BK CASE, not what was in it, now we'll be glad to take that as well, but the MONEY AINT IN WMI BK CASE, it's outside of it in our/my opinion.
Comment:
Yes exactly -- Outside, specifically bankruptcy remote assets. Those within SPE's classified as "True Sale" securitized assets.
Simply put, "Off Balance Sheet Assets" reflects assets that WMB gave up the legal ownership rights and complete control to SPE's which in turn is owned by WMI.
WMI being the parent, it is highly unlikely the court will dispute of the final ownership of retained assets to WMI. Just look at the Facts:
1) Off Balance sheet assets are removed from WMB. (Legal ownership given up)
2) Off Balance sheet assets initially transferred / sold to SPE # 1
3) Off Balance sheet assets subsequently transferred to SPE # 2 / Trust.
4) Neither SPE # 1 & # 2 are subsidiaries of WMB but rather WMI.
5) Generally SPE # 1 is the credit enhancer within SPE # 2. Thus SPE # 1 would have ownership in the form of subordinate tranches, namely called a equity ownership.
6) Both the SPE's # 1 & # 2 along with assets and income generated within are isolated from WMB.
Who sir would you then pick? WELLS OPPS Bear Sterns ooops Lehmans OOOPS GS ooops MS oooops, really ya need to wak up pard they don't get that large being honest/moral/ethical SORRY!!
I would have liked much more transparency and communication from our leaders. That's been a concern for me, too.
Johny
I have been NOW dealing with getting everything straight in my wife's estate (an atom on a gnats ass compared)for almost 6 yrs when their was a trust involved many good lawyers and now even probate and am still not completely done,so YEP I GET IT and yes you're correct WMAU was HUGE one of the biggest around
Sometimes you got to stop and wonder, either there is Big money to settle or money leaving through the back door.IMO
I know that before they changed to Electronic checks JPM used to write my PAPER CHECK.
The duration of settling this fiasco has had me suspicious for a long time.
How Big was WAMU? calculate 9 years and they are still not done with it.
Thanks appreciate you taking the time. Yes we will see.
Denny
Just like all here I no idea of how they would calculate the pay out matrix, it would be almost any number they choose.
I have suggested they could do the exact 180 degree opposite of what they did the last go around and they could do something different s well.
But sorry I can't tell ya as I have no idea how it could all shake out in the end and like I said they could also do the exact same or opposite with the PREFFERDS or they could give prefferds commons , guess we wait and see
correct
I do not see the money outside the LT and do not think it is there
As always - I wish all of us who got screwed a happy ending and hope I am wrong and that there is money that will flow to WMIH or to the escrows that become LT interests or ...
Question
What is the value of WMMRC as owned by WMIH after 5 years of their runoff paper ---- running off?
50 million that comes to WMIH?
Not yet, but a lot are headed there.
I agree WMIH already owns it
I thought - going back to the POR - that this company held some "old paper" that was "running off" with incoming cash flow of interest and principal
Such run off paper - held by WMIH via WMM.. was the collateral behind the jr and sr paper issued by WMIH per the POR (that later got used as payment to the WMI LT and out to PIERS holders)
Good to see my junior paper is redeemed in full and with all 13% (as was the senior paper years ago)
There is some value left to that paper - but how much can it be ?
(I think it started at 200 million and much has "matured or been pre paid" and the cash used to buy back the loans WMIH issued)
I own escrow and WMIH and I assume WMIH gets this money
I assume it is < 50 million
The point wasn't only that they could write the SS check but the underlying point IS and WAS THEY ARE DA BOYZ(US GOV) BANK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Had they failed we would have as well on that you can count and so would the rest of the world! LIKE it or not WE are the face of the world financially, we fail it all goes POOF
They has no choice but to use us WAMU to prop JPMC
all of this is crying over spilt milk, all we want are our glasses filled back up!!!!!!!!!
BB. Just wondering say if new shares are offered would it be from the amount of escrow markers one holds? Say a forward split happened 3/1 and you held 10,000 common escrow would you end up with 30,000?
BBAN, I agree that JPM failure would have been a BAD thing. They are a very shady operation(criminal imo) with HUGE derivative exposure.
I'm just saying, ANY bank can be used to issue SS checks.
So, that is NOT why they were saved.
"""We see such assets of LT and they are not Billions - maybe 50 million net for equity """"
Again and as always you as other here do are being VERY SPECIFIC and the assets of which you speak that are currently in the LT are from the WMI BK CASE, but won't and are not not addressing any assets held OUTSIDE THE WMI BK CASE and never will, either on purpose of confusion.........WMI goes with from 0-2.7b MAXXXXXXXXXXXXX.
Our interests are in what was OUTSIDE OF THE WMI BK CASE, not what was in it, now we'll be glad to take that as well, but the MONEY AINT IN WMI BK CASE, it's outside of it in our/my opinion
WMMRC is a sub of WMIH and is owned by WMIH of course, and if they sell it the money goes to WMIH, not to the WMILT/escrows.
If WMIH has a taxable gain when they sell WMMRC,they can use the NOLs to pay no taxes for this gain.
I thought WMIH already owned this company (and it was the collateral to the senior and junior notes issued in an amount thought at the time to be the NPV of future incoming cash payments)
1. Does not WMIH own this already?
2. If it started with say a 200 million value - what might that value be today
How does anyone get to one billion for a RUNOFF company that has not issued any paper or done any new business in 5 years ?
I assume WMMRC only has as assets notes that are running off - the run off notes
Is there anything else?
And why sell v sit and collect the incoming cash flow?
Any sale of future cash flow will bring less than 100% of the expected total inflow
and finally - my impression from WAY WAY WAY WAY back is the total value of the runoff notes is less than 200 Million ?
GOODIE if you aren't aware of what the MAGNITUDE of a FAILURE of JPM would have done to the world financial community/condition, there really is no hope for you and kind of put ya ways out of your league discussing it.
Had they gone under if you're employed my guess would be you wouldn't have been after their collapse and even if you had a million $$$$$$ in the bank you would have been penny less, there would have been runs on every bank in the WORLD in a flash
Your point?
We see such assets of LT and they are not Billions - maybe 50 million net for equity
?
"JPM writes SS checks so Govt. could not let them fail."
Anybody could write those SS checks. It's not like it is JPM's money.
"""""However, it is how this case is played and closed such as during the final POR 7 signed on 2/23/2012 that issued Escrow Markers to those that signed timely releases by the deadline as well they were issued NewCo/WMIH stock that make the difference.""""
LG it just struck me, this may VERY well be the reason we were issued markes in teh first place....
They knew thsi had to go down impaired but they also KNEW the owed all that was left over and had to make that right and possibly some compensation on top for the illegal aspects of it, AND they could not do any of that in the case or it would open a litigation morass as some call it ,so we got markers and will only be paid AFTER THE BK CLOSE COMPLETELY, thus the HISTORICAL LOOK of a legit seizure
Please explain
Is this run off income ?
Is this pre paid principal ?
???
Yes but the FDIC saved JPM's bacon, as they were going under from derivative plays, JPM writes SS checks so Govt. could not let them fail.
IMO just as GUILTY as anyone else!
What did the raise the over 700 BILLION for??
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Mr. Cooper Group Inc. (NASDAQ: COOP) provides quality servicing, origination and transaction-based services related principally to single-family residences throughout the United States with operations under its primary brands: Mr. Cooper® and Xome®. Mr. Cooper is one of the largest home loan servicers in the country focused on delivering a variety of servicing and lending products, services and technologies. Xome provides technology and data enhanced solutions to homebuyers, home sellers, real estate agents and mortgage companies.
Upon completion of the merger between WMIH Corp. and Nationstar Mortgage Holdings Inc. on July 31, 2018, WMIH became the parent company of the Nationstar Mortgage Holdings Inc. family including Mr. Cooper (Nationstar Mortgage LLC, d/b/a Mr. Cooper), Xome and Champion Mortgage (Nationstar Mortgage LLC d/b/a Champion).
As of October 10, 2018, Mr. Cooper Group Inc. is the new name of WMIH Corp. On July 31, 2018, WMIH, now Mr. Cooper Group, became the parent company of the Nationstar Mortgage Holdings Inc. family including Mr. Cooper (Nationstar Mortgage LLC, d/b/a Mr. Cooper) and Xome.
As early as late 2006, WaMu would begin to become a victim of what would eventually become the worst recession in US history since the Great Depression of 1929. WaMu's aggressive business strategy would begin to unfold throughout the end of 2006 and become increasingly disastrous through 2007. As housing rates were at all time highs before the recession began, WaMu would use its considerable leverage and assets to make large amounts of loans in both subprime mortgages and subprime credit cards. The banking division of WaMu at one point before the end of 2007 had nearly 336 stand-alone branch buildings where various types of home loans were processed and approved. WaMu would eventually over leverage themselves due to the high number of Adjustable Rate Mortgages (ARMs). As the US economy slowed down, the number of home loan defaults began to rise in quick succession. This coupled with the falling home prices throughout most of the US meant that even with foreclosures and the properties back in the hands of the company, they were unable to sell them back into the market, or were not able to derive enough revenue from the sale to cover the loan that was made on them. In the mean time, the credit card division was also seeing a surge in the number of late and non payments being made.
By September of 2008, WaMu's stock price had fallen to $2 from its previous highs of around $50 just two years earlier. Amid strong voices from the shareholders, then company CEO Kerry Killinger was dismissed by the company board. In the meantime, the company went looking for a buyer for part of its banking division. WaMu had been unsuccessful in finding an appropriate buy until its seizure by the FDIC. Overnight the companies banking division was bought by JP Morgan Chase in a secret deal brokered by the FDIC for 1.9 billion dollars. Washington Mutual Inc. has reorganized to Washington Mutual Holding Inc. WITH SHAREHOLDERS INTACT
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