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"An investigation by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) is calling on faith-based organizations to work with health officials on modifying activities following a COVID-19 outbreak at a church which killed three and infected 28% of attendees.
Published in the CDC's Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (MMWR), the investigation centers around an Arkansas church where the pastor and his wife tested positive with COVID-19. According to the report, the couple attended church-related events from March 6 through March 8, developing symptoms of illness just a few days following the events.
In total, 92 people attended the church events leading to 35 people later being confirmed to have contracted COVID-19. Three of the attendees at these events died. The investigation states those who tested positive ranged from under 18 years of age to over 65 with the majority being between 19 to 64-years-old.
In addition, another 26 people were confirmed to have contracted COVID-19 among members in the community who had contact with those who attended church events. Following reports members of the church were experiencing symptoms, the pastor closed the church indefinitely. The pastor then sought out a test and was notified he and his wife were positive. It is believed the pastor and his wife were initially infected during church events then may have exposed others during a Bible study.
The events in which the infections occurred took place indoors, ranging from 1 hour to 1.5-hour sessions along with normal church services. Food was also served during one of the dates studied in a buffet-style.
The CDC says high transmission rates of the virus have been reported from hospitals, long-term facilities, family gatherings, at a choir practice and now church events. The agency is advising faith-based establishments planning to resume in-person operations to be "aware of the potential for high rates of transmission of SARS-CoV-2. These organizations should work with local health officials to determine how to implement the U.S. Government’s guidelines for modifying activities during the COVID-19 pandemic.""
Thanks for the link, and sharing. But "Unproven" does make something false.
And some things that had been proven in the past are later disproved.
Also being pier reviewed does not make something true, and not being pier reviewed does not make something false.
One of my favorite quotes is
"Answer only important, if ask right question"
I think all the posts I read here today offered good information and helps stir debate and to help figure out what the "right questions" may be. As long as they are used to stir thoughtful and intelligent respectful debate, which is the goal here for all topics, especially health related Covid19 related discussion and DD sharing.
Information, issues and questions do not need to be peer reviewed, Blessed by the CDC, the orange Beast in the Castle (my Opinion), or Billion dollar drug companies peddling snake oil and real life saving drugs to enable intelligent discourse and debate.
This lets Zinc into the cell, and Zinc inhibits viral reproduction.
Plenty of documentation on that in the Blog Post I linked to earlier.
But like an Air Bag, it needs to be used EARLY in the disease.
If you apply an Air Bag to a patient already in ICU, it won't help them at all......same way with HCQ"
One other side of that is the HCQ and all other immune suppressants also limit the Immune response, making it easier to get infected.
I have RA, and take Methotrexate (low does cancer drug used for 40 years for RA), so I am an easy target, but I also am not too worried about the Cytokine storm issue because I am on it.
Awesome post, I learned something. Zinc is and D-3 are key to fighting COVID19 for sure.
Shame the CDC is defending $4000 drugs and not doing its job of telling the zinc and Vit D-3 side of the story, leaving it to hundreds of Virologists and MDs and folks like me to get the story out on Twatter.
Thanks for posting here Zardiw, I did not know HCQ was Ionophore.
You must have some Bio-organic-chemistry back ground like me?
While I agree with what you said, there are now known confirmed ways it is spreading in the air, and probably in uncooked food. I will share some links for discussion and debate here later today.
I still support maximum practical use of masks when and where possible. But I found due to my asthma than when I have a 6-12 foot clearance, I must stop, lower the mast a bit below my nose and catch my breath in the grocery story.
A cloth mask worn by all in public will save lives. It will reduce infections. I was pissed when Fauci lied early on about the public face masks not being useful, but it is hard to trust fellow Americans these days to not raid scarce N95 Medical mask supplies.
Like the force "HydroxyChloroquine" is. Light and dark sides it has.
As with any Rx drug, there are down side risks including death. One dentist decades ago died of a latex hyper Allergy for example.
I suspect timing is important for when to use it, and people have no clue when to use it as they have way of knowing if they have ongoing lung damage under way when they are Asymptomatic.
While it can stop (limit) a cytokine storm, immune system over reaction, like all RA and Lupus and Malaria drugs, and save your life, it can also kill those with underlying issues that are contraindicated major death risk factors on the drug company guides. Like Heart and blood vessel issues.
If combined with the right other drugs and Nutrients it might be a good choice for the right people.
For any corona type virus (cold, flu, covid) it's a fact that the earlier ANY treatment is given the more effective it is. Nothing is likely to work on 80 year olds already in intensive care
I have serious pulmonary issues. I have avoided the flu for decades by using Echinacea, C, and Zinc at the first sign of a sore throat or any thing that made me believe a cold or flu could be coming on. One must realize with Echinacea that it should only be taken for a week or two and then stopped for a couple weeks to be effective. Taking it constantly is useless.
Note the genetic risk of G6PDD deficiency discussed in the following article - it should be tested for.
"Columbia University published a model based on exhaustive data"
Brings the phrase "lies, damn lies, and statistics" to mind.
I don't believe there is any point in discussing these models or death rates because the statistics they are founded on are totally random. In addition, I want to see research in to the cause of the immunocompromised status that made them vulnerable and an analysis of whether the death toll is made up mostly of folks that would have died in less than a year anyhow.
What is the role of asymptomatic people in spreading the virus?
Symptomatic people are not the only way the virus is shed. We know that at least 44% of all infections--and the majority of community-acquired transmissions--occur from people without any symptoms (asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic people). You can be shedding the virus into the environment for up to 5 days before symptoms begin.
Infectious people come in all ages, and they all shed different amounts of virus. The figure below shows that no matter your age (x-axis), you can have a little bit of virus or a lot of virus (y-axis). (ref)
Following the link at 44% to its source, which indicates it is inferred, not hard science:
Abstract We report temporal patterns of viral shedding in 94 patients with laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 and modeled COVID-19 infectiousness profiles from a separate sample of 77 infector–infectee transmission pairs. We observed the highest viral load in throat swabs at the time of symptom onset, and inferred that infectiousness peaked on or before symptom onset. We estimated that 44% (95% confidence interval, 25–69%) of secondary cases were infected during the index cases’ presymptomatic stage, in settings with substantial household clustering, active case finding and quarantine outside the home. Disease control measures should be adjusted to account for probable substantial presymptomatic transmission.
Problem with Covid19 is asymptomatic infected people do not know they have it and yet they are the major infection vectors that made it so dangerous. So he killed his own argument.
This says it is false:
A Study on Infectivity of Asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 Carriers
Problem with Covid19 is asymptomatic infected people do not know they have it and yet they are the major infection vectors that made it so dangerous. So he killed his own argument.
This says it is false:
A Study on Infectivity of Asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 Carriers
You probably should have read my follow-up post before making some assumptions, but I stand by my Trump statements. What I attributed to President Trump was FACT, not my opinion as a "hater". Everything I said he did...he did. That doesn't make me a hater. But whether HCQ works or not, it's irresponsible for the President of the United States (or anyone for that matter) to say "go ahead and take HydroxyChloroquine.....what do you have to lose?". It's been proven to have heart risk for those with some pre-existing heart conditions. Some patients DO in fact have something to lose by taking it blindly with no physician overseeing things or running some heart tests first. And with all that said, I agree now that HCQ may possibly help early stage Covid-19 patients, or perhaps as a prophylactic.
Here's a PhD in Virology that spells it all out......Lots of Common Sense.....he tears apart that Fake News shit put out by the media on HCQ....for starters:
Here's one of his videos.......I suggest people watch the other ones as well.
And I'm pretty sure I'm done discussing this........
I've noticed it's not putting not even one farthing in my pocket....lol
But here's a Fact. HydroxyChloroquine is an 'ionophore'.......
This lets Zinc into the cell, and Zinc inhibits viral reproduction.
Plenty of documentation on that in the Blog Post I linked to earlier.
But go ahead....believe cnn, washington post, and the rest of the rat pack.....lol
But like an Air Bag, it needs to be used EARLY in the disease.
If you apply an Air Bag to a patient already in ICU, it won't help them at all......same way with HCQ.......But if you're a Trump hater, then you can definitively state that Air Bags don't work......and contribute to death....lmFAO.
After I posted that HydroxyChloroquine has shown no efficacy in real, well-run clinical trials, a friend sent me some info to ponder. I'm always happy to see both sides, and will gladly admit if I'm wrong. Some interesting things to ponder about HCQ:
Fair price for Gilead's COVID-19 med remdesivir? $4,460
The cost for hydroxychloroquine oral tablet 200 mg is around $37 for a supply of 100 tablets, depending on the pharmacy you visit. Prices are for cash paying customers only and are not valid with insurance plans.
This is very common in the studies: "Hydroxychloroquine-treated patients were more severely ill at baseline than those who did not receive hydroxychloroquine"
For any corona type virus (cold, flu, covid) it's a fact that the earlier ANY treatment is given the more effective it is. Nothing is likely to work on 80 year olds already in intensive care.
Trump is taking it as a prophylactic. Even the CDC says that's acceptable (for malaria prevention)
It wouldn't surprise me if the lobbyists so vehemently opposed to hydroxychloroquine had ties to big pharma.
Doctors say: "While most patient types receiving hydroxychloroquine were high risk (including first responders), a significant share of physicians had even used hydroxychloroquine for low risk patients:
87% of physicians indicated use in high risk patients, including first responders (n= 277) 31% of physicians indicated use for low risk patients (n=100)
Hydroxychloroquine usage for suspected undiagnosed cases:
Findings from the Sermo study also reveal that physicians have prescribed hydroxychloroquine for both symptomatic patients and undiagnosed patients, and the use of hydroxychloroquine in clinical settings has been on the rise since March 25, 2020. As of April 8, 50% of global physicians have used or seen hydroxychloroquine used in their professional settings (Week 1, March 25: 33%; Week 2, April 1: 44%; Week 3, April 8th: 50%)." "Sermo’s COVID-19 Real Time Barometer observational study polled over 20,000 expert physicians in 30 countries, including the United States, Canada, United Kingdom, France, Brazil, Russia, China, Japan and Australia. All data published to date can be found here.
I guess they got tired of hammering on a WORKING DRUG: HydroxyChloroquine........
I have no doubt that HydroxyChloroquine is a working drug.....for malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis. But a working drug to fight Covid-19? How many studies can they run which disproves that theory before it's let go? Trump can say HydroxyChloroquine works over and over, but it won't get more true just because he says it more times. I might get accused of being a liberal hack for the following comment, but Trump talking about HCQ reminds me VERY much of Dick Cheney saying that Saddam Hussein was involved with 9/11. IIRC, he publicly made that claim 69 or 72 times. He either knew it was a lie, or was basing 100% of his info on what he heard from one man (the infamous "Curveball", who lied more than he breathed).
But getting back to the original question....are there ANY peer-reviewed studies using proper clinical trial protocols that show HCQ is effective as a prophylactic or treatment once a person is infected?
It's unfortunate that the fight against Covid-19 is so politically charged, but that is President Trump's own doing. He chose to bash Obama for his choice of Ebola czar, and then puts Mike Pence in charge of the coronavirus task force (let's "pray away HIV/Aids" anyone?). He chose to bring Jared Kushner into the task force, because Jared is such a world renowned expert on infectious diseases? Kushner couldn't make it through ONE press conference without saying an utterly stupid comment regarding the strategic supply of PPE....and we never heard from him again on the topic of the virus. Trump bashed Obama for playing golf while the Ebola virus raged a couple thousand miles away in Africa....and then Trump played golf himself while a deadly virus rages on our shores. Trump bashed Obama for allowing an American citizen with Ebola to enter the US, and then Trump let all US citizens with Covid-19 return to the country (a move I totally agree with by the way). Love Trump or hate Trump, the political acrimony surrounding the virus is self-induced by the man.
Columbia University published a model based on exhaustive data, and it suggests that deaths would be down 34% if social distancing/isolation/business shut-down had started 7 days earlier. 7 days! Had it started 14 days earlier, the death rate drops by 83%. President Trump had all the info he needed to urge these things to be put in place even earlier than two weeks. His own guy Peter Navarro was telling him this in January. As was the CDC. Trump took a political gamble that it wouldn't get bad here, and he was wrong. He could have been a hero and taken bold, unprecedented steps to stave off a pandemic before it spiraled out of control in this country. He declined, and made light of it for weeks too long. A month too long. I think it will cost him the election. Time will tell.
So it is sharing both sides of the story so the reader can make up their own mind???
LOL
I doubt many know the entire fact story of #COVID19 , and the Truth of it is changing almost daily.
That is why I did not do my own site, but chose to share Info and comment on twitter where I have about 50+ world wide Virologists and MDs plus about 30 major news media site journalists looking for real facts, that follow me and visa-versa now sharing the latest new info on twatter.
I will be sharing parts of it here as I run across relevant new discoveries, so it can be debated and passed on.
I am a dealer in Trillum, rare spices (Spock quote, LOL) Facts and science.
Here is the best Science, engineering, analysis author I have found recently with current info and science analysis on how COVID19 is spread, say for instance at Restaurants, etc, that I have found on one of the main issues. I am not the author. But he has done an awesome job.
"Dr. Russell Blaylock warns that not only do face masks fail to protect the healthy from getting sick, but they also create serious health risks to the wearer. The bottom line is that if you are not sick, you should not wear a face mask."
Problem with Covid19 is asymptomatic infected people do not know they have it and yet they are the major infection vectors that made it so dangerous. So he killed his own argument.
That said said, Masks have many down side issues.
Good news is asymptomatic carriers that can use a mask (as in if they are asthmatic like me) can limit spreading it to others as the mask cuts the velocity of the air they exhale by something like an order of magnitude.
Also the difference between a mild infection and a your dead infection may depend on the amount of the virus you inhale when exposed. Masks can cut that way down.
On the other side, there is also the risk of people getting overconfident they are safe because they are wearing a $5 home made non OSHA rated, non sealing mask.
Well IIRC he will add info and links at our request. I do not think there is anything left on the internet that is not ad driven, click bait driven, selling something drive. If there is, it is hard to find.
In my experience there are almost always 2 or more sides to an issue.
I work in Bio-Chemical Engineering where process control parameters (variables) can be as complex as having 80 variables all fighting it out at once.
I have seen and lived both sides of the mask issue.
Because I do consulting work, one of my core responsibility is to look at all the sides of an issue.
Mask have three sides, front, back and the edges LOL
Zard is just self promoting, with a random compilation of COVID links and no demonstrated understanding of those which are true, false, or contradictory.
Cabo FTL Systems LC has several sites on the Internet.
Some of these are DDAmanda.com, 8KSpy.com and DailyListSpy.com.
We are also in the early stages of a Kickstarter Film called ‘Blue Chair’, which will expose the abuses of the handicapped parking system across the nation.
The TOS on IHub is pretty simple. You can pretty much talk about anything, but you CANNOT talk about MEMBERS........Basically, if you're responding to a post and your post has the word 'you' in it.....you're breaking TOS.....lol..
You can talk about the message, but NOT the messenger.
It's mind boggling how few people can get their heads around that simple concept.......lol
Yep Ihub is all about stocks, companies and money, and now health due to #COVID19. And there is huge overlap between Politics, Regulations, business(companies and stocks), Money and now #COVID19!!!
The concept is that no one is God, or perfect. Not Gov agencies and not MDs and that anyone can be wrong, and can be committing fraud for money, even the SEC.
Hell US Senators with Inside Info on #COVID19 sold millions of dollars of stock and hid the story of how bad it was going to be.
Where is the outrage????
Everyone is welcome. Lets make IHUB Great Again!!!
Interesting post Xena, Thanks for contributing. While I think masks are very important, I saw China medical folks on line saying how bad the long term use was, so you have a valid point of sorts. My first thought when I read the title was that DHMO is also deadly and a major risk it is also part of the fluid that makes regular pneumonia so deadly (LOL).
www.DHMO.org
I will read all of your post later, as it does highlight a very serious issue with masks. I have occasional asthma, and a beard (shaving is not really an option for me)....so masks are like the force, light and dark sides they do have. It is hard with cloth masks to breath heavily, when working hard. An Issue I have to deal with.
They are a good/bad battle for me as well. But I do wear a cloth mask (not OSHA approved) in public that allows enough flexibility to work with, but is not solid bullet proof protection, but does reduce the risks to me and others.
I also hand wash mine with zinc based shampoo to embed organic zinc compound in the fibers that can kill unhealthy critters (bacteria and Virus) on contact, reducing the risk of wet COVID19 hitting the mask and later drying out and getting air born again to get inhaled.
I have an engineering back ground in filtration, OSHA breathing safety hardware....
Israeli group is making zinc infused polymer fiber to be used for mask materials (They beat me to the idea, and masks made with that material may be on the market by now, China has a Zinc/silver alcohol spray for activating cheap mask fabric as well.
Thanks again for sharing such an import current topic here.
V.P. Dick Cheney, the brains behind the second Iraq war, ran Halliburton (The old Brown and Root that was removed as the general contractor for the South Texas Nuclear Project for faking X-ray date of the inferior materials being used, rumor was they faked concrete structure X-ray data hiding the bodies as well)and Cheney saw to it that Halliburton got blank check orders for anything and everything possible having to with Supplies, Infrastructure and so one that the US bought for fighting the war.
I was one of the few people against the second Irag war, and for the first one.
A more recent study involving 159 healthcare workers aged 21 to 35 years of age found that 81% developed headaches from wearing a face mask.3 Some had pre-existing headaches that were precipitated by the masks. All felt like the headaches affected their work performance.
Unfortunately, no one is telling the frail elderly and those with lung diseases, such as COPD, emphysema or pulmonary fibrosis, of these dangers when wearing a facial mask of any kind—which can cause a severe worsening of lung function. This also includes lung cancer patients and people having had lung surgery, especially with partial resection or even the removal of a whole lung.
While most agree that the N95 mask can cause significant hypoxia and hypercapnia, another study of surgical masks found significant reductions in blood oxygen as well. In this study, researchers examined the blood oxygen levels in 53 surgeons using an oximeter. They measured blood oxygenation before surgery as well as at the end of surgeries.4 The researchers found that the mask reduced the blood oxygen levels (pa02) significantly. The longer the duration of wearing the mask, the greater the fall in blood oxygen levels.
The importance of these findings is that a drop in oxygen levels (hypoxia) is associated with an impairment in immunity. Studies have shown that hypoxia can inhibit the type of main immune cells used to fight viral infections called the CD4+ T-lymphocyte. This occurs because the hypoxia increases the level of a compound called hypoxia inducible factor-1 (HIF-1), which inhibits T-lymphocytes and stimulates a powerful immune inhibitor cell called the Tregs. . This sets the stage for contracting any infection, including COVID-19 and making the consequences of that infection much graver. In essence, your mask may very well put you at an increased risk of infections and if so, having a much worse outcome.5,6,7
People with cancer, especially if the cancer has spread, will be at a further risk from prolonged hypoxia as the cancer grows best in a microenvironment that is low in oxygen. Low oxygen also promotes inflammation which can promote the growth, invasion and spread of cancers.8,9 Repeated episodes of hypoxia has been proposed as a significant factor in atherosclerosis and hence increases all cardiovascular (heart attacks) and cerebrovascular (strokes) diseases.10
There is another danger to wearing these masks on a daily basis, especially if worn for several hours. When a person is infected with a respiratory virus, they will expel some of the virus with each breath. If they are wearing a mask, especially an N95 mask or other tightly fitting mask, they will be constantly rebreathing the viruses, raising the concentration of the virus in the lungs and the nasal passages. We know that people who have the worst reactions to the coronavirus have the highest concentrations of the virus early on. And this leads to the deadly cytokine storm in a selected number.
It gets even more frightening. Newer evidence suggests that in some cases the virus can enter the brain.11,12 In most instances it enters the brain by way of the olfactory nerves (smell nerves), which connect directly with the area of the brain dealing with recent memory and memory consolidation. By wearing a mask, the exhaled viruses will not be able to escape and will concentrate in the nasal passages, enter the olfactory nerves and travel into the brain.13
It is evident from this review that there is insufficient evidence that wearing a mask of any kind can have a significant impact in preventing the spread of this virus. The fact that this virus is a relatively benign infection for the vast majority of the population and that most of the at-risk group also survive, from an infectious disease and epidemiological standpoint, by letting the virus spread through the healthier population we will reach a herd immunity level rather quickly that will end this pandemic quickly and prevent a return next winter. During this time, we need to protect the at-risk population by avoiding close contact, boosting their immunity with compounds that boost cellular immunity and in general, care for them.
One should not attack and insult those who have chosen not to wear a mask, as these studies suggest that is the wise choice to make.
I'll find the link, as I know stories without links are worthless, (edit: link is below) but the government awarded a contract worth something like $10 billion to Microsoft for some cloud computing thing. Amazon felt they were MUCH more qualified to get the deal, but were frozen out because Jeff Bezos is an outspoken critic of President Trump. I know Amazon's appeal was deemed to have merit, and the contract with Microsoft was ordered halted while the allegations were looked into.
One day they are going to get all the facts about this White House scandal and bag money thieving that has been going on that makes the Old Chicago Mob, Mayor Daley like penny ante chump change thieving
Jesus sounds like fraud on Steroids to me, where is the Outrage of the Bengasi folks??? Oh but Hillary's emails?
LOL
Please.\,
"At the end of March, Donald Trump announced that the FDA approved a machine that disinfected N95 respirator masks, allowing up to 20 uses of a single mask. This sounded great, as the Trump administration’s criminally negligent handling of the country’s stockpile of protective equipment had left thousands of frontline workers pleading for help. The Ohio-based Battelle, the company that made the machines, claimed that this process would not degrade the mask’s “performance.”
At the time, reports claimed the machine would cost the government $60 million for 60 machines. But as NBC News reports, that number somehow ballooned to $413 million over the next few days. By the beginning of May, the cost of these machines was capped at $600 million. And guess what? Yes, like everything else Donald Trump has ever promised anyone, what these machines can do was also grossly exaggerated."
I could have used the local restaurant's in line dish washers and gotten the job done. The meet EPA, CDC, FDA regs for disinfecting pots, pans dishes and so on.
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