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RIP FirstGold....
My first valuable lesson about iHub posters and penny stocks....
I trust neither, but I unfortunately still like them...
I hope everyone that was here in the past was able to at least exit with some beer money...
GLTA...
LOL@creditors.
How's that chapter 7 going?
Thanks, SEC! I love you.
Revoked should come this week or next week for FGOCQ, then PGLC should be next.
I doubt the NOLs even existed. No one would just walk away from it if there was something there. After 2011 it was obvious this was nothing more than a shell game.
Stay away from this scam. Judging by the odd coincidence between PGLC and FGOCQ in recent days, this seems nothing more than just a scam.
Odd the creditors had another meeting late in Dec. Perhaps, planning a pump&dump? I have to say, if that is the case, the timing of the SEC suspension is impeccable. Probably just days away from pulling it off. Saved by the market holiday? Just happy they got suspended. Good job, SEC!
The only update I have is the Chapter 7 is still not closed. They supposedly had another creditors meeting late December. NOLs are gone due to chapter 7, so the only other asset is a possible insurance policy that Platinum took advantage of in their law suit.
The PLGC law suit over RC mine has moved from NY to NV. Not much else has happen.
-Y
Funny how PGLC pop one day before FGOCQ got suspended. The Relief Canyon Mining Project which was once FGOCQ is now in the hands of PGLC. Odd. Maybe someone should tell the SEC.
FGOCQ: SEC Suspension:
http://www.sec.gov/litigation/suspensions/2013/34-68663.pdf
ORDER:
http://www.sec.gov/litigation/suspensions/2013/34-68663-o.pdf
Admin Proceeding:
http://www.sec.gov/litigation/admin/2013/34-68664.pdf
Speculation, as that is the rule for all Q stocks:)
Yeah. So I can get out with some beer money before it goes to no bid.... lol.
I never understood the volume here for the last 6 months, although there was always an outside chance until recently.
Who is buying now and why ????
I've seen other pos pinks with no bid and they have more going on for them than FGOCQ does.
FG Lawyer gone. No CEO. Chapter 7. Any reason to buy?
From PACER:
Order Granting Motion To Withdraw As Debtor's Counsel (Related document(s) 541) CHRIS D NICHOLS terminated from the case. (glw) (Entered: 06/25/2012)
-Y
Wonder why we are still getting some volume. Hopefully its not IHubbers buying this stock. Just in case I will try and make the intro look foreboding.
-Y
I've seen the same old "we're going to make money for you by reprocessing the old mine tails" scam replayed at least a half a dozen times in the last five years, not just at FGOC.
The logic of it appears it is exactly that which you defined... expecting, first, that some financier will get scammed into creating the capacity... which will only prove to be useful after the public market investors are shed and the capacity is applied, without the obligation to them, in addressing production using new ores...
I don't think Platinum was ever "scammed" that way... rather than being a part of the group from the start who were willing to allow the effort to proceed, to that point, expecting investors buying the stock would cover the development costs... while knowing they'd end up owning the asset package, and able to use it... without an obligation to shareholders.
That's why the timing element in their repayment schedule was so critical. If they'd left enough time and flexibility in the financing arrangements that it could easily enable FGOC to start moving new rocks into the mill... which should always have been part of the plan... then, they'd never be able to take it on the cheap...
The economics are pretty simple math... X $ per ounce versus Y cost and Z ounces per ton... makes it clear if the mining of new ores is economic or not. If they'd planned to pick up right where Pegasus had left off... they'd have made it work.
I think the only question I had re Relief Canyon, from the start, was... who is going to end up owning these valuable assets bought at a fire sale price... after the FGOC investors pay for them.
Management wanted it to be them...
Platinum wanted it to be them...
The Chinese wanted it to be them...
Etc.
Now, Pershing wants it, and maybe has it... making them only the latest in a long line... and that it appears that they, or one of their subordinates, knowingly violated their contracts in order to get them the assets ? Why am I not surprised...
That they're still fighting among themselves... doesn't do much to alter the fact that FGOC holders got thoroughly screwed by everyone involved.
Not just poor business/legal policy but engr as well.
Your right, between the financing, the security risks, the legal proceedings and the CEO dumping the SH into chpt7 just to save his own hide is probably enough to write a paper on a failing company in America, the engineering mishaps were notable as well.
Being an engineer, I knew enough about the mining process to think I knew something. But, I clearly didn't. So I fell for Scott Dockter's story about the previous company did not grind most of the ore to the most efficient size and high yields could still be obtained from the heaps. They even quoted over 50% yield. In the end the yields were under 10%. A lab, in perfect conditions, was able to yield 14%. It seems that there was probably a good reason why the previous company did what they did. Likely a large percentage of the ore was too tough to grind to the most effective size, so they didn't waste the money to do so. This is probably why the RC Mine, under FG, could only process ~10K tons a day even though they promised Platinum it would be ~40k tons a day. Also, someone on iHub mentioned that SD was not screening out the fine ore, which had little gold left to recover. Thus making the yields even lower. The only reason I can think of to do that is to increase your tons/day of ore processed for Platinum's eyes.
So they went into production and put out a PR and even had an "independent" analyst report how the stock will be worth so much due to production. They invited individual investors to the mine and took their money. Shortly after someone at FG blew the whistle, Platinum pulled, the stock tumbled.
The CEO told the court later that they knew of the low yield, but went into production to prove they had a working processing plant to help get financing so they could mine ore from the mine itself, not the heaps.
-Y
wow.
thank you.
lesson learned.
"is it legal for the creditor to make money in the BK proceedings?"
Well, yeah, it must be... in the sense that they are fully entitled to recover what they're owed, and there's nothing at all wrong with there being a profit built into what they're owed... since it's legal to make a profit from lending money. Then, FGOC entered into the deal they did, with the lender they did, with the terms it had... which I thought was pretty stupid of them, already well before the shares dipped down below $0.50...
Fairly early in 2008 I'd already determined the property had value and potential enough... and there wasn't even anything overly wrong with their plan to redevelop the mine... but there was still zero reason to have confidence in management's ability to make a go of it...
Note, from May of 08 to May of 09 it dropped from over $0.50 down to around $0.05... which as I pointed out today, was then around the per share value of the debt owed against the asset.
Should the lenders be entitled to recover anything MORE than what they're "legitimately" owed ? No. Clearly not... which then gets you to the point of questioning the legitimacy of the various claims they'd made here that had the debt balloon from $10 to over $20 million... with the "legitimacy" and the "legality" of that being distinctly different things.
The bankruptcy laws, recently re-written by the banks, for the banks, are a big part of the problem in the economy, now... even without the special exemptions from the law and the Constitution they've claimed for themselves under the rubric of "too big to fail". FGOC is a near perfect case in point re the imbalances that persist between the rights and interests of financiers, management and owners of public companies, which are hugely deleterious to the economy... even obviously so, in noting that its taken over 5 years, up to now, just to get Relief Canyon from the control of an "flailing management" to the control of others who are more capable of making it happen without all the theatrics.
But, in this case, in the end result, I don't think Platinum actually DID get $20 million for the mine... rather than something closer to the original $10 million they were owed, more or less... given "discounts" applied in the conversion deal with PGLC. But, again, that discount was applied AFTER THE FACT to benefit PGLC... when the banks was dealing with people who were actually capable of defending their interest against illegitimate claims, which FGOC clearly was not. Clearly, that shows that $10 million was "fair" while $20 million was not... leaving you to ponder the obvious lack of utility in a court system that's dysfunctional.
I noted it at the time that they did it that it was total crap that they'd inflated the debt from $10 to $20 million...
It was already clear enough to me in early 2008 that the bank was angling for the takedown, just from the way they'd structured the timing of the funding versus the plan milestones... which would ensure FGOC would run out of money before they'd ever be able to begin generating revenue...
FGOC management got suckered by the bank... and FGOC shareholders paid the price for that.
There's not a single thing about FGOC management's tenure that reflects credit on any one of the participants. FGOC was grossly mismanaged, with the company pissing away cash on meaningless puffery while failing in things required to get the mine back in operation. The bank clearly was angling to exploit that, encouraging them while fully intending to take the assets when FGOC ran out of money, as the bank knew they would. Then, the inflation of the debt to $20 million was clearly intended to serve no purpose other than to posture an insurmountable obstacle to the existing management, to ensure they'd fail in their efforts to retain an interest. The Chinese almost delivered a functional workaround to that problem... which perhaps would have worked and would have had China and not Platinum benefit from the takedown... but, the Treasury stepped in to prevent that from happening...
It's been nothing but a goat rope ever since... including all the bogosities that occurred prior to, during the BK and after it...
No self respecting judge should have allowed that gross overreach, either, given the judge has a duty to more than those who hold the debt, to allow them to do what they will. That's the sort of abuse of the system that banks routinely get away with... that the law and the judges should prevent... but rarely do.
Still, who FGOC holders have to blame most are the former FGOC management...
And they, no less than Platinum, appeared to decide early on, (IMO, certainly by mid 2008) that the FGOC holders would be thrown under the bus. That the CEO resigned and went off reservation trying to gain control of the FGOC assets for himself in a new company, rather than trying to work with folks like Sagebrush while trying to resolve the FGOC BK... in a way that would work ?
Whatever the value of the assets, it's always true that investors aren't ever directly investing in "the assets" rather than in the effort managing them... and in those responsible for that effort.
So, the key issue for FGOC holders was always the incompetence and lack of integrity of the management... their inability to control the effort and deliver results as promised back in 2008... and their serial failures since then to "do the right thing" in trying to "fix it"...
The key issue all along appears to have been be that getting Relief Canyon "to work" would mean requiring different management...
Platinum clearly recognized that in early 2008, if not before...
Clearly a problem that no one involved here ever cared a whit about the shareholders interest rather than their own...
In hindsight, its quite clear that there really never was a real reason that FGOC ever had to get to BK... other than the ego and self-interest of the management... and the ego and self interest of those running the banks...
FGOC is a good "case in point" to look at as a victim of bad policy choice... as FGOC shows clearly enough what needs to be fixed for our economy to work better.
Shareholders having more power to hold a failing management accountable... and having more respect within the system, in relation to a rebalancing that is necessary between debt and equity ownership interests... might have enabled "fixing" Relief Canyon without it taking 5 years, and without it requiring the loss of investors capital, as occurred here... That's a big pile of capital wasted, even more considering the imposition of lost opportunity costs, and five years wasted with a large number of people not employed in mining gold that should have been...
If you can watch something like FGOCQ for five years... and NOT SEE how bad our policy is, and how it creates, preserves and imposes problems instead of solutions that work ?
What I was curious about, is it legal for the creditor to make money in the BK proceedings? Platinum said they were owed 20 million. They got 20 million for the mine. But then they received 600K for the lab, 1 million for "extra" equipment that was sold and they recived an undisclosed amount for the civil suit against FG management. Looks like a good profit. Is that legal? For some reason, I thought all you can hope for is the amount owed. Which Platinum already pushed from 12 million to 20 million. Not even sure what the extra 8 million was from.
It is interesting to note that the new owners don't have the debt issues to deal with that FGOC did... largely because the guys who held the original debt have opted under the new ownership to go a ahead and convert their debt holdings into shares in the new company... in which it appears they are the control parties.
http://ir.stockpr.com/pershinggold/company-news/detail/263/pershing-gold-corporation-converts-all-debt-from-relief-canyon-mine-acquisition
So, the resolution to the BK does end up with the bank pulling the plug on the project, and with the bank owning what used to be owned by the FGOC shareholders... the bank apparently happy enough now to be equity owners ?
Ignoring all the noise that occurred in the middle... this boils down to Platinum funding the development "almost" to the start of operations... but then pulling the plug on the project right at the point where it was ready to get going, in order to take the assets for themselves...
So the new lawsuit addresses some bit of the gap between what seems to have been happening here, in December of 2010, when Canarc had agreed to acquire the assets:
http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/Canarc-Agrees-Purchase-Relief-Canyon-Gold-Mine-Assets-Nevada-Arranges-Cdn12-Million-TSX-CCM-1372237.htm
And here, in August of 2011, when Sagebrush announced that they had acquired the assets: http://www.techagreements.com/Recent-Deals.aspx?pressreleasenum=5000656
Interesting that the Sagebrush announcement doesn't say anything specific about the terms, but, that should be available somewhere in the proceedings of the BK if its not elsewhere in their PR ?
That first link above contains a pretty good overview of the property and its history... but, for some reason that I'm still not at all clear about, Canarc opted to back out of the deal ?
Was it just that they didn't get the $12 million in financing they needed to close the deal ? Was there a reason that they didn't get the financing ?
FWIW, following the paper trail that exists here, it appears there's a solid enough bit of trend data in relation to basic valuation...
FGOC shows that Platinum thought that the Relief Canyon project had a loan value of around $10 to $12 million during the FGOC tenure... with the BK showing that they were expecting to be able to foreclose on it for that amount that was due, and still expected to get most of their money back out of it. The "Chinese deal" maybe valued it a bit more, but, then, it seems the Chinese had "other reasons" to find their properties interesting. Senetek, the Crosby/Ryan partnership, thought it was worth that amount that was owed, but also failed in putting a deal together. And, then, given the FGOC management sucked and First Gold failed to attain production, failed to keep the project funded, and went BK... it was eventually bought out of BK, twice, each time basically for the value still owed to the bank for the prior loans?
From that, I get that there were apparently a good number of people who thought that RC was worth what was owed on it...
That still leaves a "bottom line" value of around $10 million, which, if you divide that by the 200 million PGLC shares, justifies a valuation of around a nickel a share... with PGLC trading now for $0.33 a share and facing some uncertainty, given the filing of a lawsuit over the method by which they managed to acquire the property...
Granted, PGLC has added some leases, and done some drilling... but, if they lose the lawsuit, that's not going to do much to help them...
So, at this point, it's not overly clear to me that the value the property might have should actually translate across into a share value for the new owner... given the clouded history...
PGLC does have some cash, which, if it doesn't all get spent on the exploration effort, or burned up fighting the legal battles, would be worth $0.035 a share...
Amazing to me that Relief Canyon has been "12 months away from production"... for the last 5 years... and now looks like it will continue to be "12 months away from production" for the foreseeable future...
Sorry, but it really is game over here. There was a chance for a shell play and the CEO had some negotiations with the IRS and I even saw some paper work submitted. But to get off the hook, with the new mine owners who were giving him some serious repercussions for him not transferring over all the mining claims, he let the company go into Chpt 7 and resigned as CEO.
I think I will clean up this site not to look like this stock has any value.
If you believe in the RC mine, the new owners are PGLC. And their stock is hitting a new low. But do the DD, there are some good reasons for the new low.
-Y
Well, I don't see that there's any potential left here, now. All the assets are gone, the IRS is taking the NOLS, and the people who were running the company have all quit trying and moved on to other projects. Given the Q, not even looking like this will survive with any shell potential.
Stick a fork in it...
My interest here was the Relief Canyon property...
It might be worth it to follow the new group who own it... but, that won't have anything to do with FGOCQ...
well hopefull our shares stay intact, been holding a long time and looks like its gonna be a bit longer. Hope this plays out for the shareholders of FGOCQ?
any thoughts on the probability with what is currently going on?
Well, there ya have it...
Guess its time to start the DD all over again, hoping that, this time, the arrangement works out better, and that I can come to a different conclusion than I did in the case of FGOC, re the probability of the company and the project surviving the financing package assembled to "support" it...
Here's the IHUB home of the new owners of the Relief Canyon mine:
http://investorshub.advfn.com/Pershing-Gold-Corp-PGLC-18956/
PGLC has assembled the "parts" of Relief Canyon. They purchased the mine and processing plant from FG's creditor and then bought VIT's interest to have the complete mine.
-Y
I'm pretty sure I'd posted a long time back that the thing that seemed it made the most sense... was for there to be an effort in consolidation between the FG and the other Relief Canyon interests. That probably did make a whole lot more sense back in the day when FG's assets were still intact, with what was, then, a nearly functional mining operation, needing only for the price of gold to get up to where it is now to make it successful... when the other participants in the area had the property, but not the infrastructure.
That FG already had all the parts in place... and still failed to make a functional mine out of it... with that mostly due to some obvious bit of stupidity in the structuring of some really unreasonable dependencies in the timing of the finances, that were paired with a financier who was running the deal as an obvious front operation intent on enabling Chinese spies ?
You couldn't even make this sort of stuff up and get anyone to believe it...
I'm not even sure what's happened to the FG interest in Relief Canyon, now.
Perhaps the only potential benefit that might still result from watching this evolve over all this time... would depend on someone else figuring out that its still possible to assemble a Relief Canyon consolidation deal... pairing the remnants of the former FG assets with Victoria's ?
The price of gold is still good enough to make it work... and the market in junior stocks and low grade exploration properties sucks bad enough right now to make any deal affordable enough... although its probably only going to be that much harder, now, to get proper deal financing for it ?
Maybe someone will still make something happen at Relief Canyon, eventually... ?
Now would probably be the time to do it... before the markets make it harder again, rather than easier...
Might still be worth keeping an eye on the various "parts" here... if that's still possible.
Thanks yacknl for keeping us in the loop with all the info. And any new developments.
So when do you think the PPS goes to .0000 & disappear from our accounts kind of like my GM stock before there bailout.
Chapter 7 means game over, unless there is a large amount of assets. FG has no assets just a large NOL for possible shell play. But those hopes are gone due to the CEO dropping the chance of a reorg to get himself off the hook from a retaliation to his civil suit.
So its game over. The only shot of anything is a class action suit since there was an insurance policy. But have not heard of anything.
So we are out or are we still in this play? In regards to shareholders getting anything from there positions in the long term of this play
Victoria gold sold their part of the RC mine and the deal closed on April 5. The ownership is now GAC/SAGE/PGLC with the rest of the mine from FG. FG is not involved in any way that I have heard.
-Y
If that comes through where does that leave the shareholders, do we have any value to our shares at the end off all this
"Victoria expects to raise about C$49 million from Mill Canyon and from the recent sales of its Cove and Relief Canyon properties. That excludes some potential payments and royalties that could add a further C$25 million. The sale of Relief Canyon has already closed; the sales of the other two assets are expected to close in June."
http://www.mineweb.com/mineweb/view/mineweb/en/page504?oid=152168&sn=Detail
Well that sucks, looks like this is gonna be a total loss.
FG lawyer bailed.
Motion to Withdraw as Attorney of Record MOTION TO WITHDRAW AS DEBTOR'S COUNSEL Filed by CHRIS D NICHOLS on behalf of FIRSTGOLD CORP. (NICHOLS, CHRIS) (Entered: 05/04/2012)
Does anyone have any background in civil class action suits?
There was an insurance policy, held by the former directors of FG, that Platinum sued against and they settled out of court. I was wondering if FG share holders have any basis in civil suit.
This "independent" report they published, alone looks criminal. They published this right before Plaitinum pulled the plug and the stock took a nose dive.
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/ccccac8
They made the author a director shortly afterwards he wrote it. And from what I read they knew the mine would not produce, even close, of what they published in the doc.
-Y
Well said, TL had claimed FG owed him $600K. So I thought tha