Replies to post #4503 on The Rising Influence of Rising Affluence

[stemcell]

The people with the money have always made the rules in this country, yes, beginning with George Washington. Nat Gas is coming with or without gov't help it is simple arithmetic. I have read many reports detailing the overall economic impact to this country if we switch almost everything over to nat gas and the numbers at just 10% utilization are absolutely staggering. Waste Management is actually fueling some of their trucks at certain landfills with methane extracted from the same garbage they are being paid to dump! from 11-6-2009:

Waste Management, one of the biggest garbage companies in the country, says it will be able to produce 13,000 gallons of liquefied natural gas (LNG) daily from just one landfill in Northern California.

enough to power 300 of the 425 trucks they have in calif for an entire year!
I just don't understand the anger at TBP and Soros for wanting to get nat gas rolling....any gov't help will be repaid back rather quickly so how is taxpayers money going into their pockets? All I can say is I have seen the numbers and the math and I'm telling you Nat Gas will be the biggest financial windfall our country has ever seen.
BTW always enjoy reading your posts keep em' coming

[OakesCS]

ob,
by repeating things i assume you're talking about things like:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304070104576395662990512484.html?KEYWORDS=Boone-Doggle

if i read that article i'd forgotten about it. My thoughts were my own and as far as i can tell they are factual. If you have documentation to the contrary then it would bolster your assertions to present them.

i suppose you can claim businesses and government are the same entity if you're thinking along the lines that they're all part of society. However, that is overly broad for the purpose. If you omit the anti-semitism angle, Henry Ford was a great facilitator of what might now be called "social justice" and equitable sharing of wealth. However, I see no evidence that he received a dime from the US gov't to found and build any of the automobile companies he founded. He did this at a time when there wasn't an extensive network of fueling stations, pipelines, or paved roads.

I wasn't portraying the folks i mentioned as men who would refuse gov't aid, rather at that time those men were starting their businesses, the US gov't was not inclined to give aid (the US gov't did try to bail out Ford twice prior to WWII; however, it had nothing to do with founding and growing the company). Of course, the US gov't provided the framework in which they could operate and preserve the wealth that they created. I don't consider that a subsidy and it's not like private enterprise does not pay taxes to support national defense and transportation networks.

You extrapolated beyond what I said or intimated. T-bone wants a US gov't subsidized "manhattan project" effort to build out infrastructure for natural gas vehicles. While i think that will happen, such an approach is not necessary or fiscally responsible. He wants it because it will benefit him immensely. It will probably not benefit you. If I was 20 yrs younger and really selfish, I might be much more supportive of t-bone's effort because my salary is partially based on natural gas exploration and production and it would only get better if everyone was sucking down NG like gasoline. As it is, i don't have a car so why should i pay for t-bone to get wealthier. If you want to make the argument that NG benefits society by lowering greenhouse gas emissions and that i should pay because i receive that benefit, well, that benefit is not as clear as some folks claim. The best argument is the "energy independence" angle (which i obliquely address below).

You might want to also consider some other facts: 1. If obama and friends won't allow a pipeline across Nebraska, how will they approve the pipeline infrastructure necessary to accomplish t-bone's vision? 2. if t-bone was really serious about this he would pursuing changing the laws I mentioned in my response to flatlander. A large part of the reason the US became an automobile dependent society is because US oil companies were able to control oil from the reservoir to the fuel pump. In contrast, natural gas producers are effectively forced to sell their product when it comes to the surface. Companies like CHK can provide NG fueled cars and subsidized fuel to their employees but don't you think they would also be setting up NG "gas stations" and promoting NG automobile production if they could control the gas between the wellhead and fuel station? There's a lot less processing involved in turning raw natural gas into auto fuel than crude oil into gasoline so the potential profit margin is much larger. This would happen if the gov't would get out of the way rather than interjecting itself more.

Since there are many municipalities that do have NG fueled bus systems. It would be interesting to see if those systems have realized fuel cost savings and whether their vehicle maintenance & support costs have changed.
regards,
Charlie

[wow_happens28]

It seems government has been working AGAINST business when it comes to energy development. The Department of Energy was instituted on 8/04/1977, TO LESSEN OUR DEPENDENCE ON FOREIGN OIL.

AND NOW IT'S 2011 -- 34 YEARS LATER -- AND THE BUDGET FOR THIS
"NECESSARY" DEPARTMENT IS AT $24.2 BILLION A YEAR. IT HAS 16,000 FEDERAL EMPLOYEES AND APPROXIMATELY 100,000 CONTRACT EMPLOYEES; AND LOOK AT THE JOB IT HAS DONE!

33 years ago 30% of our oil consumption was foreign imports. Today 70% of our oil consumption is foreign imports.


I can't back up these facts, I got this in an email today. They sound about par for the course.