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Phil(Hot Rod Chevy)

01/26/03 7:02 PM

#19651 RE: Mattu #19650

Matt,

Keep doing it the way you have been.

Screw the losers that don't like it.

Have fun,
Phil

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marcos

01/26/03 7:14 PM

#19652 RE: Mattu #19650

Any real-life society that has been successful in evolving over the last few centuries has done so through the rule of law, in having the hands of its executive and judiciary contained by constitution and legal precedent ... of precedent there is a great deal, it is a rich source of guidance indeed -

'Listen -- strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.'

http://bau2.uibk.ac.at/sg/python/Scripts/HolyGrail/MontyPythonandtheHolyGrail



Which is not to express an opinion on your questions as i haven't thought about them yet, got to go now [is it possible you're supplying at least part of the answer in the way you phrase the questions]

One thing is - when a judge renders a decision, he should 'write the decision', i.e. state clearly what are the charges, summarise evidence, and explain reasoning for both verdict and sentence [the latter if applicable, often isn't in clear-cut cases on the net] ... so generally i think the jailhouse is a good idea, moronic though much of its content may be, that's to be expected in prison, as in society at large

'ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: Well you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: I mean, if I went around sayin' I was an empereror just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me they'd put me away!
ARTHUR: Shut up! Will you shut up!
DENNIS: Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! HELP! HELP! I'm being repressed!
ARTHUR: Bloody peasant!
'



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The Original dpb5!

01/26/03 7:26 PM

#19653 RE: Mattu #19650

Matt,

Since you are asking...

I really do understand your desire to be playful with wrongdoers and sometimes even too playful with NON wrongdoers, I have to say that sometimes your playfulness can easily be misread on the Internet as arrogance. (Frankly, same holds true for Bob!)

I think that everybody that uses IHUB loves IHUB! But when issues arise I think that many who may have thoughts simply do not post them for fear of getting into a "pissing match" (sorry for the "..." {a recent example of how you posted arrogantly, remember?})

My memory serves that you started this website to be a community website. I believe that you still have that desire. However, at the same time, it seems that whenever a member has an issue that you and/or Bob seem uncomfortable with for whatever reasons, you both tend to reply in a manner that can be conceived that individual members don't mean much to IHUB in the long term scheme of things.

I think that your question relates mostly to Professionalism.

And as it relates to that in my mind, I would have to agree that YES, professionalism is necessary as a long term goal in keeping members of this community interested in hanging around. We all know what Raging Bull has done to disorient users over the years.

As much as you enjoy the interactivity associated with the Jail and the maintenance of sensibility throughout the website, it remains my opinion that IHUB would be better suited to allow longterm members to be recruited to oversee some of this administrative duty. This would not only take the burden off of you about "being the bad guy", but would also show to other members of the website that this truly IS a community.

Any one person will not always make the best administrative choices, so it only makes sense to spread those administrative duties out into the membership. I can think of at LEAST ten members of IHUB who have qualities that would add to the sense of community in this regard. And I doubt that a one of them would want or expect any payment for these community services.

You know that even I have suggested things in the past that would encourage this community involvement, but each time that I have it seemed to be ignored as unimportant. As the website grows, the importance grows larger each day!

These are my thoughts on the issue, but the final decision is, as usual, up to you. It is, after all, your's and Bob's website.

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Lou Dina

01/26/03 7:50 PM

#19654 RE: Mattu #19650

Matt,

I think you have the balance just right. Keep it light and fun and don't get too caught up with inflexible rules.

If I had to treat my kids or my employees "equally" it wouldn't work, or the results would be wooden and marginally effective. Different people need different treatment, administered with fairness and justice in mind. What's needed is awareness and judgement. As long as the boss, parent or administrator has the ability and integrity to do what is best, this approach is always superior to rigid, inflexible rules.

If you don't think so, just take a look at any large company.

Lou

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excel

01/26/03 8:03 PM

#19655 RE: Mattu #19650

Matt. I think over all you are doing a good job.
I know that no matter what you do it will rub some the wrong way.
Any leadership position has that factor built into it.

My fear is that changes take place here for the fear if no change takes place you and Bob think you aren't being progressive.

Yet I've seen more businesses ruin their original intent of vision due to change for the sake of change.

My biggest gripe with you is this..........
Because you had trouble following trouble makers you altered the whole site by removing the option from the place it should be.

When if you would have just made a rule if your subject relates to what someone said but posted as new you spend a few days in jail.

That would make it very easy for you.

If they can't follow replying to the thread boom in jail you go for a few days unless you are posting a new subject.
No if ands or buts.

Yet what I saw that happened is you let idiots change what was the way the site worked best which was having the post new option available where it belongs.

When trouble makers change the proper function of the site it's a shame imo.

Matt. If it's working don't fix it!
One of the hardest rules of business to adhere to is that old saying if it isn't broken don't fix it.

BTW. I agree. If you turn everything into hard and fast rules when facts show in the message board world you are going to have situations that take common sense over legalism.

Excel

Release the past; enjoy the present; Embarq the future!


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CharleyMike

01/26/03 8:17 PM

#19656 RE: Mattu #19650

It ain't broke. Don't fix it!

One of the reasons so many folks come here is the way you guys operate.

Don't go messing with it.

and if you don't think that's difficult to key in when your team's winning the Super Bowl and you've been sipping some serious tequila, you don't know $hit!



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Susie924

01/26/03 8:22 PM

#19657 RE: Mattu #19650

Matt,
If it ain't broke.....don't fix it.
Right now one of the best things about Ihub is the camaraderie between Admin and the posters.
As far as immaturity....the only immaturity I have noticed is that of a few posters that are in jail. I think you have the patience of a saint with some of these people. I haven't been posting here too long even though I have been a member for awhile so maybe I haven't seen as much as Bob has.
I guess what I am saying is.....right now things seem to be working. With the influx of new members that you are having, maybe you will have to change eventually. Wait and see what happens.
I do have one complaint though and that is the possibility of being TOS'd for posting new instead of hitting reply. I don't like that one at all!!!
:-)


[Suppressed Sound Link]
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Capt_Nemo

01/26/03 8:25 PM

#19658 RE: Mattu #19650

Don't know bout you for sure matt, but i will be mellow when I'm dead,,,,,period,,,,,,,Life is too short..........

Rick... Scammers! I salute you
Report scum,err scams here.#board-610
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HabaneroDog

01/26/03 8:34 PM

#19659 RE: Mattu #19650

MattBrat....I say stay the same, this ain't no RB Lycos corporate site this here is ihub and you guys are what makes it great.....We kinda like the interaction.....Tell Bob I'm waiting for my free T-shirt XXXLG.

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The Original dpb5!

01/26/03 8:46 PM

#19660 RE: Mattu #19650

Matt,

I am not trying to beat a dead horse, but I just reread your post. (Did you edit it after first posting it, or did I miss this the first time around?)

Being able to pick just the right touch of "handling" the dynamic situation is what does it -- not consistently slapping the wrist in the same place on each person.

This is an example of what I alluded to in my last post about this issue. You used quotes around the word HANDLING. Yet you recently chastised (slapped the wrist) of a longterm member for using quotation marks in their post.

In that post you said to the member that if he used quotation marks in his replies to you that you would not respond to him. Does that make sense?

Quotation Marks in a post are no different than BOLDING or ITALIZING or UNDERLINING the words. Why should quotation marks "BOTHER YOU?"

This gets back to the Professionalism issue.

To me, your best stance would be to not provoke angst and ire amongst members by making statements about such mundane things as use of quotation marks in a post. Or the use of YOUR vs. YOU'RE! THERE vs. THEIR! etc.

While it may BUG YOU that the member used quotes or WRONG GRAMMAR, we all know that the ultimate attempt was that the member was merely trying to communicate!

Do we spank a child because they say "I NEED A COOKIE", rather than...."I WANT A COOKIE"....??

Get past the semantics of proper grammar in the website, and learn to read between the lines, grammatical errors, and REASONS WHY PEOPLE MIGHT BOLD SOMETHING!, and it would help you immensely in dealing with the real issues of the problems you face as admin.

...........stepping off my soapbox now.

:)


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Bob Zumbrunnen

01/26/03 9:06 PM

#19662 RE: Mattu #19650

Here's my take.

Having some fun while doing your job is a desirable thing, but the Admin role has to be taken very seriously, lest it come across as too "bush league". The position is that of judge, jury, attorneys, appeals court, and executioner. Pretty heavy stuff. Can't come across like you're winging it or are either inconsistent or in danger of becoming inconsistent. Someone else brought up "precedent".

Each Admin act establishes precedent that must be followed for future admin actions, so these actions need to always be carefully considered.

The job shouldn't be about belittling members unless they're thoroughly deserving of it. Like spammers. I say spammers should be completely fair game. Want to play with someone like you're a cat and they're a wounded mouse? The spammers are the perfect target.

Everyone who breaks the rules and draws Admin attention should be treated not as a bit of amusement, but should be instead treated as someone who crossed the line, needs to be informed very clearly and immediately in what manner they crossed the line, and what they need to do to avoid crossing the line again. Not some whimsical penance. Each person who breaks a particular rule should get the same "punishment" as anyone else who does the same. For example, personal attack, first violation equals 1-day suspension, with maybe time off early for a convincing apology. The "hot stove" rule of supervision. This is taught in the first week of any class aimed at supervision or management: The hot stove burns everyone who touches it. It doesn't get amusement from doing so and doesn't burn one person more than the other. It just burns fingers that come into contact with it.

Someone once said "It's not about punishing every misdeed; it's about ensuring that present and future conduct are in compliance with the site's rules."

I think it's perfectly acceptable for the Admin to have a whimsical side to him; otherwise he's just a rule-enforcing drone. But that whimsical side shouldn't be evident in the very serious matter of enforcing the site's rules.

And the admin should never seem "happy" to "punish" someone. It should be done regretably. Again, spammers are the exception to the rule.

And I may as well play this particular card now, since I'll end up playing it eventually anyway. There are a vocal few who will strongly disagree with me on this and maybe even present themselves as representing the majority, but...

When I did the same job at SI, which was a much larger site than this one, and whose level of quality in the only threads that matter (IMO) is still at a level we should strive for, I tried to be very consistent (helped immensely by being able to just slap an automatically-expiring suspension on someone when necessary, and by always being aware of precedent such as "First violation of privacy invasion equals a 14-day suspension; first violation for personal attack equals 3 days" and sticking by that.

An important part of my role there was that while I could "be myself" in certain aspects of my interaction there, that was limited to certain things. Talking to car nuts. Fielding questions. Dealing with spammers. But when dealing with the admin role, I held myself to very rigid standards. Again, always mindful of precedent I'd set and new precedents I was setting. Precedent carries the weight of written rules, IMO.

I was actively disliked by a lot of people, but highly respected by many times more people and as a result, the site was respected more, and so were its rules.

If I break the rules by cussing someone out, usually best to let me serve my time and don't toy with me or treat me like a kid at the same time. The average age here is about my age. We don't take well to being treated as children by those much younger than us and outright resent it.

I'm very opposed to the idea of adding admins from the user ranks. In the interest of consistency, the admin power needs to be in as few hands and the knowledge of precedent in as few heads as possible. The job is largely subjective by definition and subjecting it to different kinds of subjectivity by spreading it amoung several people would destroy any chances of consistency. Jill and I were very lucky at SI in that we definitely saw things eye to eye. We rarely disagreed on how to handle any particular situation.

Anyway, as this site gets bigger, we/you can ill afford to go into the future heavy admin load lacking consistency or adherence to precedent.

I think that people who break the rules often deserve to be slapped around, played with. It's fun entertainment.

This is perhaps what I disagree with most. Spammers should be treated as fodder for all of us. The same isn't true of someone who loses their temper and simply needs a short time-out to remind them that we don't play that here. Let 'em quietly do their time and go back to the community with the understanding that if they do it again, they'll serve more time. We're mostly grownups here and shouldn't be subject to ridicule. Especially on a site that differs from so many others in it's "don't ridicule others" rule. Setting a good example, and all that.

So I don't think you have to be a fuddy-duddy overall, but I think you and the membership of this community would be served well if at least when doing the Admin role itself, you're somber, mature, and damned serious about consistent rules enforcement.

Paying folks don't act like idiots. They have something to lose.

It's inconsistent, and therefore to be avoided, to treat paying members differently from free members. A personal attack should be treated the same whether the user has paid for extra features or not.

Most of the problems around here are on impulse. A timed suspension to me isn't sensible for adults.

Strongly disagree. A judge should not act on impulse. And any particular "crime" should be counted on to carry with it a certain "penalty", unless the "culprit" voluntarily (that was my requirement anyway) assures me convincingly that the same won't be happening again soon.

I don't disagree with being public about the admin role, though. That's a luxury you have that I didn't. I set my own precedent of being very private about the admin role, even to the point of rarely correcting public mis-statements about the nature of suspensions. It was a precedent I had set, so I had to stick with it. The Admin is even more bound by the rules and precedents than the customers are. I think being public about it is a good thing and am glad you set that precedent. I just don't like the ridicule precedent.

Regarding my desire to make the admin role a bit more formulaic by way of admin screens, that's more for consistency than anything else. A lot better to see a screen that says "Your posting privileges have been suspended for 3 days for personal attacks. You'll be able to post again effective [date/time here]." than for them to have to ask you what they did wrong, you may or may not answer quickly depending on what you're doing, and your answer either is something like "You know what you did wrong and the sooner you admit it the better" or "Say 10 Hail Matt's and I'll let you free, even though you really didn't break any rules".

It's all about consistency and treating the role with the level of sobriety most of us would expect from the role.

I don't know if you'll agree with this, but a number of folks thought I was pretty good at the role and I've done it for a very long time, so feel free to ask if you need any guidance on how best to do it.

I'm sure I'll have a lot more to say about this, but the game's on and my team's getting their butts kicked.

Edit: I should add that it'd probably take me two hands to count the number of people who very purposely burned their bridges long ago, but for some reason they're still here. And in some cases still causing problems. I can think of at least one person who lost their account and still hasn't got it back who arguably didn't have as mmmany or as egregious of violations as some others who are still here.
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Zeev Hed

01/26/03 10:41 PM

#19669 RE: Mattu #19650

Actually, Matt, I think that some times you are too fast at slapping people that come on board. Maybe you have tools that tell you a new poster is a nuissance because he was a nuissance under another "handle", but even if an habitual "offender" comes in and post less than virulent posts, you don't give them another chance because of their prior sins. Let them at least do something very wrong before you boot them. Forgiving is a virtue after all....

Zeev

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ergo sum

01/26/03 10:57 PM

#19671 RE: Mattu #19650

Matt

I find you're your law rather arbitrary.
The multiple personality restriction seems to only apply to people who use aliases.
The cursing rules I can live with because I don't follow them.
I'm of the mind that personal attacks should be monitored and ignored by thread heads as they are.
Idiots I'm not sure about, this category I find rather arbitrary.
Overall I find this sight benefits from you're personality.
Bob, on the other hand, always seems to be out of town during problems and seems to care more about his daughter than the well being of this site which is how it should be.

Rather than becoming more aloof I would encourage you to find more people who can share the load of you're site.

Ergo Sum


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Koikaze

01/26/03 11:33 PM

#19672 RE: Mattu #19650

Matt, I don't think I can improve on what Lou Dina said in Post #19666 ... but I'll add a few thoughts, anyway.

CharleyMike put his finger on it when he said, "One of the reasons so many folks come here is the way you guys operate."

I disagree that you must treat all people the same. The magic you bring to iHub is judgment and you apply it admirably. Precedents are poppycock. You have the wit and wisdom to distinguish between those who are disruptive and those who just misstep. That's a rare talent.

I don't always agree with your decisions ... but the sum total of those decisions has provided all of us with a marvelous place to express and exchange ideas. I'd be an idiot to imagine my opinion as to a decision was superior to yours.

I hope you won't get too bound up in being "consistent". I'd rather see you continue to be EFFECTIVE.

Fred


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But Anyway

01/27/03 12:23 AM

#19676 RE: Mattu #19650

The community should elect a Senate empowered to vote on community issues while granting veto powers to you.

One Senate member for every, say, 2000 community members.

Individuals can campaign for a seat on the Senate which will ultimately be decided by a community voting process.

Although you retain executive powers, the Senate process ensures the policies and decisions impacting the community are reflective of the needs and will of its participants.

For instance, suspensions, and the severity of, are to be determined by a Senate vote.

The Senate can also be charged with reviewing the conduct of "Chairmans of the Board" and decide, by majority vote of the Senate, whether Chairmans are egregiously abusing power and need to be replaced. The replacement process can also be achieved through a vote of the members of the thread and approved or disapproved by the Senate and yourself.

This process allows the site, and the rules therein, to cater to the will of, and grow with, the community and not by the personal bias and heavy hand of one or two individuals.

+++

Conditions of my posting here: #msg-661266

+++
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Churak

01/27/03 8:05 AM

#19680 RE: Mattu #19650

Re timed suspensions. If it's good enough for the real world, it should be good enough for cyber world. At least if you do the crime you know what the time will be for the infraction. I believe in rules & for fixed penalties for breaking those rules. Like speeding etc. Sure there are ranges for the penalties & for increased penalties for continued infractions but that should be made known up front perhaps even as part of the TOU Agreement. It should not matter whether a Community member is a premium member or a freebie; same crime; same time IMHO. I agree with Bob on this one...consistency is very important and will not make people feel like they have been picked upon or singled out.

Re a more serious tone from ADMIN. Respect has to be earned. When a member gets thrown in JAIL for violating iHub's TOU Agreement. I think it depends on the infraction as to how that member is to be treated. Bob has mentioned SPAMMING as fodder for all of us. I think that those that SPAM are not interested in rehabilitation. They simply want to SPAM their stuff & move on. I have yet to see a SPAMMER in JAIL want to get out. Terminate them without prejudice.

AFAIAC, the worst TOU offenders are the multiple alias registrants. These are the ones that should be made an example of IMHO. They know it is wrong to register multiple accounts yet for whatever reason...do it. If, and I say IF, someone is to be played with, it is should be these offenders.

Some boards (especially those that are non-stock related) get very emotional and passionate. It should be up to the COB & their Directors to maintain adherence to iHub's TOU Agreement. In the event that flaming gets out of control & TOU violation reports start coming in on an individual, then a fixed timeout is in order based on ADMIN's review. No need for JAIL for these offenders, IMHO. A PM from ADMIN advising of this should be sufficient referencing the offending posts(s) with the duration of the timeout & a warning re what the increased penalties would be for continued infractions up to & including termination for habitual offenders. Something like the 3 strikes rule. I don't know what the percentage of TOU violations are for flaming BUT this should cut down ADMIN time considerably. I haven't been a member here that long but from what I have seen, the nastiest comments in JAIL have been from FLAMERS. Given them a timeout & remove the discussion.

I also think this would remove some of the personal interaction of ADMIN & the Community. You guys are running a business & while it may be nice/fun to interact with the members you are still running a business. Slapping people around by management for fun & entertainment will not garner you any respect. Keeping order in a quality site, will get you that respect.

Something else I would like to mention, I also don't think that ADMIN should be talking about stocks or their picks. That can be misconstrued. I think that you have to make a decision ie you want to talk about stocks or you want to be the OWNER/ADMIN of the best stock discussion site on the net. IMHO, I do not think the two can co-exist.

A suggestion has been made for a Senate or Member Review type committe for TOU violators. IMHO, fuget about it as I do not see it as the highest & best use of one's time & resources. Set the rules & list the penalties for violating the TOS...KISS.



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greg s

01/27/03 9:25 AM

#19685 RE: Mattu #19650

Matt,

I read Bob's reply to this post and I agree with everything he said. Now don't get me wrong, I think you're doing a great job.

It's just that Bob has a unique perspective on this topic. He's been there when the site becomes quite large. I think his comments are right on the money.

FWIW ... and thanks to you BOTH for the great jobs you do!

greg.
Intel board - #board-369
Grateful Dead board - #board-1329
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WTMHouston

01/27/03 10:35 PM

#19776 RE: Mattu #19650

I first read your inquiry right after it was posted and since I wondered whether there really was a major problem, decided to give it some thought before replying. I have also now had the benefit of reading many of the replies.

Whatever you do or don't do will never please everyone. The fact that someone complains should not serve as the basis for substantial change. Many of the worst laws and policies in general society have been as the result of knee-jerk reactions to otherwise isolated incidents. Just because something does not work 100 percent of the time does not mean it is broken or that there is a problem to fix. I join the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" chorus line.

I originally thought the Jail was a bad idea and that it would end up causing you more problems than it was worth. Boy was my initial assessment wrong. It has been a tremendous success, in my opinion. Those who are likely to be beneficial community members have escaped substantially unscathed. Those who are here for little more than to disrupt either remain in jail or have gotten the boot. 95+ percent of the resolutions have been the way it should be. It ain't perfect, but making substantial change to try and rectify that remaining five percent is likely, IMO, to do more harm than good.

Might you sometimes be a bit more careful about what you say and how you say it? Sure. But this is no reason to change the basic design of an imaginative concept that works very well the vast majority of the time.

The points made about pet peeves being different from site rules are valid points. Although with the exception of the recent "reply" vs. "post new" controversy, I cannot recall anyone being jailed for stepping on a pet peeve that was not otherwise a TOU violation.

There is nothing wrong with playful and nothing wrong with serious. When each is appropriate is as varied as the number of possible situations. If this is the real concern, and I suspect it is, most of this can be addressed by always double thinking a reply and by sometimes not replying quite as quickly. I would bet that 90+ percent of your responses that someone has labeled as "too flippant" or "not serious enough" have been those made either quickly or as an emotional response. No rule will fix this. Thinking a bit more before hitting submit post will cure most of what some think is less than ideal. Reflection is a good thing.

From a personal perspective, I seldom have any problem with what you post. When there have been concerns, I have found you to be generally responsive and not so pigheaded as to reject advice out of hand just because it was contrary to your preexisting thoughts on the matter -- unlike most of those with whom you deal. That said, however, there have been times when you have been or done what you sought to avoid. There always will be. The best you can hope for is to try to do it right 90+ percent of the time and to keep an open mind for the times when you blow it. This after all is the basic theme of the jail: fess you blew it and most all sins will be quickly forgiven (no presidential puns intended).

I hope that this site does not go to fixed, timed suspensions. Such fixed punishments are themselves arbitrary. Bob may think it worked well at SI, but it did sometimes seem arbitrary, and, bottom line, this place is a whole lot different (in good ways) than SI. The public flexibility that currently exists is much better, IMO. The idea that say three days (or some other fixed period) is better just because it is fixed is only valid if one accepts that it is okay to be arbitrary so long as you are always arbitrary.

I also disagree that paying folks and free folks must be treated the same. Those who pay to be here have more than just their time invested. The consideration, however, should not be in what gets you in trouble, but in what gets you out of trouble -- the first time. If there were to be a vote in the jail on when to boot someone, I suspect that most of the voters would boot folks far more quickly than you do. This element of patience, however, seems to get lost in the shuffle.

Bob mentioned as the site continues to get larger, less folks will know me, so it's important that I'm consistent

While this is true, to an extent, it does not follow that fixed arbitrary results are the answer. What may be more important is that your first contact with folks not be caustic, abrasive, or presumptuous. If they later invite it, well, then they get what they deserve.

The only reason these issues even exist is because you have chosen (rightfully so in my opinion) to make much of the TOU enforcement public. If it were private, few would know much of anything about it and would have little to nothing to complain about, much less publicly.

The public complaints and the differences of opinion, sometimes vehemently, come with the territory. They are good. They are not reasons to make major changes.

After reading your questions, all of the answers, and writing this response, I have the same question I started out with: is there really a major problem?

Tinker and think -- don't arbitrarily overhaul to make it look like you are doing something.


Troy