Replies to post #5079 on Distributed Digital Property Board

[goin fishn]

Hi x-point

From your post:

There are black churches and then there are black churches, but the black church that we are talking about here is a racist black church led by a less that wholly patriotic reverand. To state that any politician that points this up is "playing the race card in a most foul manner" is rediculous.

From my post:

"In the days of the civil rights movement, (1950s, 1960s) Churches served as the organizing point for many of the efforts to obtain the rights promised in the Constitution. Churches were even bombed by White Supremecists, in an effort to derail or intimidate local civil rights pushes. During this time, some Black church leaders got a little tired of preaching "Turn the other cheek," when their parishoners were being abused and even killed. So, a degree of Afrocentrism, and militancy entered the Black church community. -And it is understandable that it did.-

Black leaders must honor this church based approach to civic organizing if they intend to lead any Black congressional district. The most vocal and powerful ministers are often the ones that adopt the most militant stances among the Black community. Black leaders must walk a line with these ministers, but it does not mean that they adopt the minister's views as a whole. Instead, they acknowledge that Black ministers have been, and continue to be extremely important in the Black community- and that if not for the efforts of Black ministers in the past, the leaders of today would not be able to exercise their civil rights on an equal basis with others in the U. S."

Black ministers are often the ones who stand up and say the thoughts/issues that are on the minds of many in the community. They are viewed as the driving force in the still occuring drive for full civil rights. Pointing out the wrongs that a White dominated society inflicted upon others is a part of this. To try to tar Obama with this brush is unfair to him, and the Black community in general. It is Jingoism wrapped in Swiftboating.

Look at what you really have here. Has Obama ever been quoted as saying any of this anti-America stuff? -No-

Is Rev. Wright only about being anti-America? Again, no. As a church leader, he serves a far wider purpose, and while I don't know much of him, I feel confident in saying that he may well do many good works behind the scenes. We can disgree with him on his anti-America stance without having to brand all in his church with that mark, and we can realize that just a few remarks are not the full measure of the man. Just like a few portions of Obama's past are not the measure of the man he is now.

Look also at the evidence that exists as to Obama's supposed agreement with Wright's 9/11 views. A supposed witness saw him nod when Wright was saying these things. I can only ask you, would you like this to be the standard for evidence which cast you in a negative light?

I think not.

[aleajactaest]

x-point,
What slightly worries me about what you are saying is that you seem to be imputing this preacher's words into Obama's philosphy.

I think you need to make your case out of Obama's words.

He was raised by his white mother and abandoned by his Kenyan father. So I rather doubt he holds the racist opinions I presume you think he is concealing.

Heck, I have Christian friends. Christianity has done a lot of harm to Moslems in its time. Does that make me a hater of Moslems?

[keeler]

X-point

One quick question if I may. Could they be "right"? I am not saying at all that I agree with the position, only that I understand the realm of thought from where it has originated. I work amongst a large number of inner city poor who feel their country, their president, and their economy have left them behind. Right or wrong, it is a real sentiment that I think others who have not witnessed can not possibly come to grips with. I have watched over 5,000 middle class jobs leave our community of 150,000 people over the last six years. Don't kid yourself, those job losses have devastated our city and its families. And no, I do not think our economy, our state, or our nation is better off importing from China those same products these workers once made here. The american middle class WAS built on the fact that a quality manufacturing job offered economic opportunity to those whose other skills otherwise left them short of a white collar existence. The economic dislocation of these people is real and very painful to witness. They do not have the skills others need, and they are settling for whatever service secttor job they can find at whatever wage they are lucky enough to get.

I left college as a Reagan Republican. Others here can attest to that fact. The republican party I see today is a fraud compared to the ideals of Reagan. It can easily be argued that the current neo-con outsourcing through what they call "free-trade" has left these people behind. There is a chapter in Patrick Buchannon's (sp) book "Where the right went wrong" where he calls the Neo-cons and the Bush administration's economic policy TREASON. A chapter, I might add, that many of you should read.

One simple idea of his to keep in mind. When you farm out quality paying jobs and replace them with minimum wage service jobs you destroy the base of wages used to buy the pubic goods at the very heart of our collective wealth. A nation that doesn't make anything, is a nation without a tax base. A nation without a tax base is a nation without roads, schools, public health care, etc.. I am a free market capatalist who is alarmed at the excesses of executive pay in a time when american workers are working harder for less. This economic inequality is one part of the disabling side of capitalism that only begs for change. I think this also explains to some extent what makes Obama an attractive candidate of change. Whether you like it or not, the "system" has not worked for millions of americans. When you add to that the perception of dissaray that eminates from Washington, the seemingly unending attack on freedoms and civil liberties, and the corrupt nature of these Neo-cons, you only add ingredients to the recipe for change.

Given the nature of the past eight years. Some are already whispering, while others are shouting, that the Bush Presidency might go down as one of, if not the worst, U.S. Presidency in our nation's history. How kindly will history look back upon that which we in the present hold in such disdain. Look at Bush's currnet popularity polls to see what the data shows, it does not look good to say the least.

One of the ironies here is that Carl Rove bragged not so long ago about the permanent republican majority and the end of the deomocratic party's ability to mount any type of challenge to the republican power. My how quickly things change. I am almost humored by the Blue fins and others who think the type of response we are all witnessing to the Obama story is some type of fluke. A repsonse best delt with through the old fashion tactics of the divisive politics.

There is a perfect storm brewing in no small part to the excessive abuses of the current presidency. For all of you who picture Obama as an easy target, you obviously have not let your mind wander down that road where the democratic party launches an all out assualt on the Bush administration's failures with the "if you elect McCain you get four more years of this crap" tag line. The political commercials will almost write themselves.

Just look at how many red states are in line to be plucked off by the democrats this fall and you then see why many political scientists see the Obama-Clinton race as the only race left to determine the next president.

With regards to your more specific points, Obama is far from a perfect candidate. But given the characteristics of the three people left for the position it can be easliy concluded that he represents the best opportunity for change, and if there is one easy to identify theme amongst the electorate it is that change is very appealing to millions of americans. The interesting question for republicans to chew on is how did it get this bad this fast? They really only need to look in the mirror. Their abuses, disregard for compromise, and any last trace of respect for our core national principles could and probably will leave them on the outside looking in.

I said it weeks ago, Mr. Obama your table is ready. When Hillary can't hold Texas, and eeks out a small win in Ohio but fails to make inroads in the delegate count it will be for all practical purposes over. Does anyone here really think McCain has any chance in a debate with Obama? If you do you are not being honest with yourself. The republicans will hold their core constituencies, they always do, but they will lose the moderate middle they need to form a winning coalition. The only real question left will be the length of Obama's coattails to sweep into office a democratic congress he will find more to his liking with respect to the policy changes he envisions. Potentially a republican mighmare in real time don't ya think?

Now back to lurking. You guys are having a hell of a conversation here. Maybe I'll return after the march 4th primaries to see if my crystal ball needs more polish.

Keeler