Replies to post #229951 on Biotech Values

[si39]

Listerine is about 20% alcohol, too little to be a good cleansing agent against CORV-19 virus.

[randychub]

Thanks you!

[DewDiligence]

I disagree with your advice vis-à-vis indoor humidity. Low indoor humidity dries out your mucous membranes and thereby weakens your defense against an airborne pathogen.

During heating season, indoor environments without a humidifier will typically have a relative humidity of 20-30%, which is sub-optimal. If you have a humidifier, use it to raise the relative humidity to about 45%.

During the heating season, you certainly do not want to use a dehumidifier.

[SJEmmerich]

25 C isn't hot enough

who info

[randychub]

So do the anti bacterial hand wipes that the stores are selling out of work?

[vinmantoo]

* HEAT melts fat; this is why it is so good to use water above 25 degrees Celsius for washing hands, clothes and everything. In addition, hot water makes more foam and that makes it even more useful.

Swampboots. Thanks for that excellent list. I will quibble with the heat comment a bit. Warmer water may indeed help foaming action. However, the heat needed to kill the coronavirus particle is much higher than any tap water, well any water you would use. It requires 132°F or or 56°C, which would cause severe burns.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200317-covid-19-how-long-does-the-coronavirus-last-on-surfaces

[OakesCS]

looks like you were given the dangerously dumbed down version. Bottom line is that whatever breaks down or alters the virus structure, destroys it. Heat doesn’t melt the lipid layer; it can cause a variety of disruptions but melting isn’t one of them. Likewise, various solvents don’t dissolve the lipid or proteins - at least while the virus is intact. If broken down stuff dissolves, that matters less than the breaking up. Some of the solvents u mentioned change the chemistry of the virus in such a way that it may lose structural integrity. I’d bet that 40% alcohol would deactivate the virus but it might take longer than 80% alcohol. Folks tend to conflate variable effects. I suspect the alcohol changes the water activity outside the range at which the virus is stable. If that’s true, then anything that can cause that change in water activity could deactivate the virus, eg a sufficiently concentrated salt solution might do the trick (don’t take that as fact). Lastly, the virus is not 1 protein but several and they serve different purposes and some are combined to form larger structures. Break up or change any part of that, then the job is done. I don’t know where vinmantoo got his 55 degC number. I suspect it corresponds to the highest temperature at which organisms have been observed. Creatures don’t tend to exist at higher temps because the protein structures degrade. A virus isn’t an organism and I don’t know if viral proteins are generally more or less temperature sensitive. Lower temperatures might do the trick but I doubt there are any data specific to CV19. other environmental variables can affect the temp at which proteins unfold or the lipid layer breaks down. 25 degC is probably too low w/o other, more important, contributing factors. I suspect the porous materials stuff is bunk. Some viruses survive quite nicely in the porous material some folks call rock and sediment. I don’t know if CV19 can and I doubt anyone else can say w certainty.

[D Cal]

Versions of the document below can be found on various internet bulletin boards and forums, usually with some indirect / unclear attribution to Johns Hopkins University. “I received this from my friend a physician A.B., whose daughter is asst professor in infectious disease at Johns Hopkins” - like that.



This document has so much bafflingly bad and/or non-information, it’s not feasible that it was written by anyone with appreciable scientific or medical expertise - and certainly wasn’t reviewed before being sent out on the internet. Unfortunately it has been distributed even within reputable organizations.



Although it’s not full of lies and misinformation – there’s plenty of that going around, too – it’s less helpful than simply saying “If you have questions about Covid-19 transmission, please check cdc.gov; who.int; the website of any university medical school system in your area; or your state, county, city; or your private health plan’s website”. And saying “wash your hands frequently / maintain social distancing / stay home except for essential activities / wear a mask in public if you are ill / call your doctor or health care provider if you have symptoms of an upper respiratory tract infection.”



Before you read too far, here is a reliable source for information on cleaning and disinfecting https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/cleaning-disinfection.html



Anything that isn’t on that page, you can probably discount.



“Corona virus info, good read:

The following is from Johns Hopkins University, quite informative.
* The virus is not a living organism, but a protein molecule (DNA)

>> DNA is a nucleic acid, not a protein. https://www.genome.gov/genetics-glossary/Nucleic-Acid vs https://www.genome.gov/genetics-glossary/Protein

>> Coronaviruses are RNA viruses. Also a type of nucleic acid, genetic material, but different from DNA. See nucleic acid link above; also https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK554776/, by Italian scientists, hosted on the National Library of Medicine website - "The CoVs have become the major pathogens of emerging respiratory disease outbreaks. They are a large family of single-stranded RNA viruses (+ssRNA) that can be isolated in different animal species”

>> Viruses are not protein molecules. They are nucleic acid (genetic material) strands, either DNA or RNA, encased in a protein and/or lipid “package”. https://virologyj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12985-019-1182-0 "The coronaviral genome encodes four major structural proteins: the spike (S) protein, nucleocapsid (N) protein, membrane (M) protein, and the envelope (E) protein, all of which are required to produce a structurally complete viral particle”.

> There is a nice image and basic description of a virus here https://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/cells/virus.html plus "All viruses contain nucleic acid, either DNA or RNA (but not both), and a protein coat, which encases the nucleic acid. Some viruses are also enclosed by an envelope of fat and protein molecules.”

covered by ya protective layer of lipid (fat), which, when absorbed by the cells of the ocular, nasal or buccal mucosa, changes their genetic code. (mutation)

>> No mutation occurs. Viruses do hijack cellular machinery and materials to manufacture more of themselves (more virus, more viral nucleic acids, more viral proteins and lipids.) Mutations that cause cancer can occur with chronic viral infections such as Hepatitis B and C, but acute viruses like the current coronavirus and influenza just use cells to make copies of themselves. They don’t mutate your DNA. Viruses themselves can mutate and change but that’s another topic.



and convert them into aggressor and multiplier cells.

>>Aggressor and multiplier cells are rarely used scientific terms – and have been misused/not understood here. Aggressor cells is a rarely used term for a type of immune cell. It’s unclear where this information came from. Interestingly, if you search Google for “aggressor cells Covid” or “multiplier cells Covid” no authoritative scientific or medical sources come up in the results. What you will find is sites that have posted this unscientific document! That’s the only place these words are being used in relation to Covid 19.


* Since the virus is not a living organism but a protein molecule

>> See virus definition above

, it is not killed, but decays on its own. The disintegration time depends on the temperature, humidity and type of material where it lies.
* The virus is very fragile; the only thing that protects it is a thin outer layer of fat.

>> It is true that this virus is vulnerable to effective disinfectants. However, per the above, it has protein as well as fat layers. TWO VERY IMPORTANT FACTS APPLY HERE:

https://cen.acs.org/biological-chemistry/infectious-disease/How-we-know-disinfectants-should-kill-the-COVID-19-coronavirus/98/web/2020/03

>>1. it is premature to say that we know what works against this virus. The advice given by authoritative sources is based on research into destroying or inactivating similar viruses, not the one causing the current pandemic.

>>2. Most importantly - even though it’s essential to continue hand washing and avoiding touching your face: "According to the CDC, SARS-CoV-2 is believed to spread primarily person-to-person through airborne respiratory droplets.”

>>2a. This means that appropriate social distancing, avoiding inessential public activities, self-quarantining if you are sick is likely to be far more important than hoarding purell.

That is why any soap or detergent is the best remedy

>> The best remedy (actually, preventive measure) is to avoid contact with respiratory droplets

, because the foam CUTS the FAT (that is why you have to rub so much: for 20 seconds or more, to make a lot of foam).

>> All soap cuts fat. Foam serves chiefly as evidence that you’ve washed long and forcefully enough (and possibly that your soap was formulated to make a lot of foam.)


By dissolving the fat layer, the protein molecule disperses and breaks down on its own.


* HEAT melts fat; this is why it is so good to use water above 25 degrees
Celsius for washing hands, clothes and everything. In addition, hot water makes more foam and that makes it even more useful.

>> Normal human body temperature is on the order of 37 degrees centigrade (98.6 fahrenheit). Obviously this and other viruses thrive at body temperature. Lukewarm water is considered between 98 and 110 degrees fahrenheit. A cool-ish swimming pool suitable for workouts and competitive swimming is roughly 80 degrees. No one would try to disinfect or sterilize using lukewarm or cool water. 25 degrees celsius / 77 degrees fahrenheit isn’t hot water.


* Alcohol or any mixture with alcohol over 65% DISSOLVES ANY FAT, especially the external lipid layer of the virus.
* Any mix with 1 part bleach and 5 parts water directly dissolves the protein, breaks it down from the inside.
* Oxygenated water helps long after soap, alcohol and chlorine, because peroxide dissolves the virus protein, but you have to use it pure and it hurts your skin.

>> Oxygenated water - this is of unclear or no meaning, unless it refers to hydrogen peroxide, H2O2 - which isn’t often referred to as “oxygenated water”, and which isn’t approved to kill corona or other viruses, and wouldn’t penetrate a lipid coat layer.


* NO BACTERICIDE OR ANTIBIOTIC SERVES. The virus is not a living organism like bacteria; antibodies cannot kill what is not alive.

>> The fact that this discusses antibiotics then antibodies as if they were equivalent is all the proof that is needed that this document was written by someone with little to no scientific knowledge; and / or wasn’t reviewed before it was sent out. Antibiotics and Antibodies are completely different entities. No one with scientific or medical training and credentials could possibly confuse them.


* NEVER shake used or unused clothing, sheets or cloth.

>> Why not? Also, used or unused - what other types does that leave? It would be nice to cite some authoritative source that recommends against this as a way to avoid spreading the virus, and explains why this is a bad thing. However, you can probably surmise that there is no such source.

While it is glued to a porous surface, it is very inert and disintegrates only
-between 3 hours (fabric and porous),
-4 hours (copper and wood)
-24 hours (cardboard),
- 42 hours (metal) and
-72 hours (plastic).


But if you shake it or use a feather duster, the
virus molecules float in the air for up to 3 hours, and can lodge in your nose.

>> Your best bet is to worry less about surface contamination, and instead listen to the United States Centers for Disease Control. After all, you paid for their expertise with your tax dollars: "Spread from contact with contaminated surfaces or objects - It may be possible that a person can get COVID-19 by touching a surface or object that has the virus on it and then touching their own mouth, nose, or possibly their eyes, but this is not thought to be the main way the virus spreads."


* The virus molecules remain very stable in external cold, or artificial as air conditioners in houses and cars.
They also need moisture to stay stable, and especially darkness. Therefore, dehumidified, dry, warm and bright environments will degrade it faster.

>> https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/myth-busters "COVID-19 virus can be transmitted in areas with hot and humid climates”

>> A warm environment won’t degrade the virus. It thrives at 98.6 degrees fahrenheit!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/health/coronavirus-sars-cov-2-structure/ "Extreme heat — near boiling — causes the proteins in the spikes to unravel and lose their shape, deactivating them. (A human fever is not hot enough to do this; it’s unclear what effect warm summer weather will have.)"


* UV LIGHT on any object that may contain it breaks down the virus protein. For example, to disinfect and reuse a mask is perfect. Be careful, it also breaks down collagen (which is protein) in the skin.
* The virus CANNOT go through healthy skin.
* Vinegar is NOT useful because it does not break down the protective layer of fat.
* NO SPIRITS, NOR VODKA, serve. The strongest vodka is 40% alcohol, and you need 65%.
* LISTERINE IF IT SERVES! It is 65% alcohol.
* The more confined the space, the more concentration of the virus there can be. The more open or naturally ventilated, the less.

>> Yes, crowded places increase the risk of transmission.


* You have to wash your hands
before and after touching mucosa, food, locks, knobs, switches, remote control, cell phone, watches, computers, desks, TV, etc. And when using the bathroom.

>> Yes you have to wash your hands frequently. But what could be the anti-infective mechanism of washing BEFORE coming into contact with a potentially contaminated surface? The virus isn’t picky, it will adhere to clean or dirty skin.


* You have to HUMIDIFY HANDS DRY from so much washing them, because the molecules can hide in the micro cracks. The thicker the moisturizer, the better.

>> Molecules? A virus is not a molecule.

>> The thicker the layer of moisturizer on your hands the more soap you’ll need to cut through the moisturizer to penetrate and wash off the virus.


* Also keep your NAILS SHORT so that the virus does not hide there.”






>> I hope I have convinced you that this could not possibly come from the esteemed Johns Hopkins Medical School; and that it was obviously written, and carelessly so, by someone with little scientific knowledge or expertise.



>> I hope I have convinced you to get reliable health information on Coronavirus and Covid-19 from legitimate sources like the CDC, the World Health Organization, directly from University medical websites, city/county/state health departments, bonafide health care organizations, and not from unreliable and untraceable sources. Note: as a rule of thumb, .org, .edu, and .gov websites tend to be trustworthy sources.