Replies to post #52464 on Simply Politics & News (GOV)

[ergo sum]

That is total bs.

[Alex G]

Many of the Founding Fathers and Revolutionary War leaders were Deists, and upheld a firm separation of church and state.
http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6177

Webster's New World Dictionary
Deism: (1) The belief in the existence of a God on purely rational grounds without reliance on revelation or authority; especially in the 17th and 18th centuries. (2) The doctrine that God created the world and its natural laws, but takes no further part in its functioning.

John Adams, 2nd President of the United States

"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"

"The Doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."


Thomas Jefferson

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

"In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to liberty; he is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."


James Madison 4th President of the United States

Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments:
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise....During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."


Benjamin Franklin's autobiography, p. 66:
"...Some books against Deism fell into my hands....It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations, in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."


Thomas Paine

From The Age of Reason, pp. 89:
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of....Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and of my own part, I disbelieve them all."

[Alex G]

>>If we were to move to a more theocratic society as was designed by our founding fathers,things might change.<<


so how do you move to a more theocratic society?

that would mean that men in Gov't would tell us how to act and lay down rules based on THEIR interpretation of god?

sounds like the Taliban

[Koikaze]

Good Afternoon, Paule

I've just returned from a short trip and am preparing for my evening chores, so I won't be able to respond in full. At first blush (and with a very brief review of your posts to others today), there's a chance we will disagree on some points. For that reason, I thought it wise to start by citing a point on which we seem to agree. I recently posted this on a different board:

"The fault lays in our institutions, the mechanisms and habits that govern our conduct. I'm no advocate of organized religion, but I recognize that our country was founded by deeply religious people ... even though there were differences in their beliefs. Removing the guidance of those religions without providing a set of equivalent guidelines for human conduct has had a destructive effect on our society. If I'm not mistaken, that is the point (omitted) was making.

The result allows us to honor deceit in our politics ... as long as we believe the deceiver is "on our side".

Until we gain the good sense to recognize that simple point and find a way to correct it, our society will continue to deteriorate."

For whatever it's worth, my efforts are directed toward "finding a way to correct it". It's a task that requires on open mind, careful thought, good will, and a belief that there is "a way to correct it".

Fred

[Koikaze]

Good Morning, Paule

You say you think the founders of our nation were too idealistic when they wrote our Constitution. I disagree. Even a most cursory review of the drafting of our Constitution, and of the 85 Federalist Papers in which James Madison, John Jay and Alexander Hamilton sought to describe and explain that document, will show that view to be incorrect. The founders were fully aware of the vagaries of human nature and did their utmost to create a document that would withstand them.

You posit that things might improve if we move toward a more theocratic society, which you feel "was designed by our founding fathers".

Our founding fathers did not design a theocratic society. Theocracy is, "government by priests claiming to rule by divine authority." It is clear from everything written about the founding of our nation that the founders rejected any notion of theocracy. You can say that religion had a greater influence on the society of the 1700's than it does today (and I would agree with you), but it was in no sense a theocracy.

When you suggest the move to a more theocratic society, you do not make clear which theocracy you espouse. Since we have a substantial mix of religions in our country, which do you suggest should take control of our government?

You mention that the people emulate leaders who have no morals or ethics. It's true that morality is a top-down phenomenon, but the problem is that you can not legislate morality. If we want principled leaders, we must devise a method of selecting them ... and that is "The only problem with our current system"

Obviously, though, that leaves the question of how we can select principled leaders? Can we devise a method of doing that?

Fred