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You mean Ray's not in jail yet? Only in America.
Is Ray still alive?
My reference was to the movie, and the reference was vague. It is hot in Tejas, and I have forgotten how much money I lost on this scam as I wrote it all off some time ago. I only check in on rare occasions just to see who is still posting. I think for me the best part of investing was the voices on these boards. It would have been nice to have gotten rich with all the guys here, to drink a beer or two in celebration. But then I am rich. It doesn't take that much if you know how to count it.
As for fight club, every now and then, I wish someone would kick some ass, literally. But I won't, and it would be stupid for anyone else to do it.
I do miss the optimism though.
As for document, it would seem the bogus picture they put on their website, the one Spokeshave exposed as being a fraud, would be enough to hang someone.
This is no "fight club."
Why does it have to be the SEC. Why can't prosecutors in San Diego step up to the plate. It was in San Diego that Cooper, Ketch, and Ray told us the technology existed and that it worked. They even showed a prototype and told us not to touch it because of the sensitive elctronic equipment inside. Yes, we were gullible. But they, on more than one occasion lied, to their stockholders. I think that's fraud. And as such a criminal offense. But then to expect justice, except as a token crumbs thrown to common people every now and then, is probably just as foolish as my believing Cooper when he looked me in the eye and shook my hands.
Ah, such is life. Mine's still pretty good though. Lost some money, but I'm still breathing and laughing on more occasions than not.
This is a good post.
So we all get sucked in, lose a considerable amoung of money, and then walk away thinking we've learned something, or just walk away, or lurk on the message boards for another year or more hoping for what?
Maybe Brad, Ray, Rich, John and the boys will host a Barbeque to thank us for all ther rounds of golf we paid for. Yeah, that must be it. Cold beer and brisket. Yeah, that's it.
The funny thing is, I miss those crooks who used to entertain us while telling us we were going to make millions. It's the nature of the con.
I read this board still from time to time, not even hoping to find Ray in jail, where he belongs, but to see who is still here. It turns out that this scam was just chump change compared to the schemes going on the higher levels. But despite all that, it's still nice to read a post from you, spokeshave.
I admit it. I got bamboozled out of a big chunk of dough. But do I have to tell my wife?
I shook hands with John Howell, Ray, Rich, and Cooper at the San Diego meeting a few years ago. That was bad enough. Now I go around sounding like Lady MacBeth. "Out, out, damn spot."
Happy New Years
I was wondering, wouldn't talking about any product concerning RIM be "off topic."
I don't thin Jazzman changed his handle. He just doesn't post very often.
I think I still have 800 shares of this stock hidden in a retirement account. No sense to take losses there.
A quote for the day
George Forman knocked me down about fourteen times in two fights. One of these days I might buy me one of those Foreman grills and bust him over the head with it.
"Smoking" Joe Frazer
Maybe, had Rim put it's money into a good Micro brewery instead of "Step into Liquid" the company would be more "liquid" today. Surely, there's got to be a way the company could take all those research and design efforts and channel it into a good bottle of beer.
Stockholder's meetings would be more fun.
Louis,
I'm sure there's a quote of the day that pertains to expensive beers, but I can't think of one.
Brady
The best part of this adventure for me has been reading this board and through this board getting to know you people. It was more fun when most of us believed we had invested in a company with a bright future. But even after I no longer believed in the future of Rim, even after I no longer believed Ray had our best interest at heart, I still come to this board each day to read the posts. Admittedly they are somewhat redundant, but that isn't really the fault of the posters.
I miss the people who have left. The pumpers and bashers both. And to those who did make a profit while I lost my, well you know what I lost, I miss you too. I wish we could have all prospered.
A good message board is hard to find. I have made about 100 grand on an single investment in the past couple of years, and I have yet to post on that message board. I try to read it, but there are no personalities on it. No one to laugh with, cry with.
I have determined however, not to invest in anymore bulletin board companies. Too many ways to suck blood and virtually no accountablility.
I did enjoy the beer Pengy bought me in San Deigo though.
I know I'm slow, but just now I accidently discover how to access the "private messages" on this board. I'm too cheap to subscribe so I can't respond except openly. But if I've ignored you in the past, it was because I simply didn't know anyone was trying to PM me.
And so this message won't be off topic, I still think this stock is a lost cause for any long term investor. A few of you probably made good money here, but I don't think this company has anything worthwhile to sale.
A few thoughts. Many of the old posters who touted the stock several times a day simply quit posting for all practical purposes years ago. Many of the "bashers" on this board weren't bashers at all on the earlier boards. "Jilted lovers" is a nice rhetorical touch. Some might suggest "rape victims" would be a more accurate term, though the counter to that would be no one forced anyone to buy the stock. So let's just get the sex out of it. There was no sex. Just a couple of guys on surf boards in the cold water of Ireland. Does anyone remember that?
"Sour grapes born of impatience?" I do remember a speech about delivering on the promise, and I do remember a one year time line being offered by the speaker (Tom Cooper). Something about rolling thunder by another speaker (Brad). Vague references to Microsoft. Revenues from the movie. And Rich telling us in Dallas that a significant technical breakthrough would be forthcoming in weeks. And late being told that the "technical breakthrough" was the hiring of Cooper. Who didn't stay in office very much longer after he told me personally if he didn't believe in the company he wouldn't be there.
I guess you could say it was sour grapes on my part, but hardly born of impatience.
Using your analogy, I believe that what is up for grabs isn't whether or not this company is a scam, but what is the nature of the scam. Definitions and evidence being what they are, even if this compny folds, there will be those who will argue that the directors were up front and honest in their attempts. And there are those who will argue that the salaries from the film alone, when the stockholders were left with nothing, would be enough to classify this as a scam. I am in the second crowd. Even if by some fluke this company does produce a product, does make a profit, and does make money for some investors, their behavior in the past has be shameful.
The list of activities to support my opinion has be discussed here for years. The "don't touch the prototype" statement at the San Diego meeting is just one example. But then it depends on your definition of "prototype."
As far as intelligent design, sure. But if you read the literature of religious right pushing the intelligent design agenda, you find the term is used to promote the idea that dinasaurs and humans coexisted in the past 6,000 years (the approximate age of the earth and universe) and that the dinasaurs were vegetarians. And if you don't believe that, the proponents argue, you are a heretic, a basher, a disgrunted investor with no life. Whatever.
What was not answered at the Dallas meeting was how much of the New Wheel Technology was still being used by NVEI. Rick said he couldn't answer that question, though at the San Deigo meeting he told me virtually none of it was being used.
I don't remember anything being said about 9/11.
I do remember Rick saying there would be an announcement about a technology breakthrough in the near future. Then they announce that Cooper would be president,and when asked, they said that was the announcment.
Of course Cooper didn't stay.
First I ridiculed bashers like Circus Pig when he claimed New Visuals was a sham. Then I violently opposed him, challenging him to a boxing match at the annual shareholders meeting. I even bought more shares. But finally I came to accept his arguments as self-evident.
Have a good day, folks.
And then there's that reference Ross made about that great sucking sound.
In Wheels analogy, he seems to suggest the critics are the guards and the defenders of the RIM are the prisoners. He also suggest the prisoners, once liberated by the sucess of RIM, will be seeking revenge on the guards, the critics. And if, as you suggest, this has moved from an abstraction to concrete experience, then one could conclude that wheels's post is a concrete threat. That wheels or anyone else should see themselves as prisoners of those critical of the company is unfortunate.
This is only a message board. Even the money won or lost here is only money. I lost a good deal because I once believed in the company. But I am not devastated by it. Not even upset. I would have liked to had made millions, but I didn't. I still breath and sleep. My wife is still beautiful at 56, my grown children are wonderful. We squabble sometimes, but we love and enjoy each other.
I don't post here often. I do occasionally drop in and read comments by the names I remember, because I like you guys. All of you. I like reading what you have to say. We don't have to agree. I do find the drama interesting. I do think if people are having trouble with the critics to the point they see them as guards, they should step back and reconsider. At the same goes for the critics.
This is Christmas. We are all just people. And people are more important than investments.
Analogies make for good rhetoric, but they are also full of traps. The prisoner/guard analogy paints a woefully inacurate picture here. Testy as some may be, no one is captive on this board. Everyone is free to leave or stay as he or she chooses.
If Rim succeeds and makes the shareholders here wealthy, that's good. I suppose, according to your argument, that some here would feel inadequately compensated and wouldn't be happy unless some measure of flesh was taken from the critics here. That's too bad.
For the record, I don't wish anyone on the board ill. I do think Rim has been and will probably continue to be a scam, but if I am proven wrong, it wouldn't upset me at all.
The liberal definition was the one given to "prototype" at the San Diego convention. Only Ray didn't bother to tell us his definition. Instead he told us not to touch it because of the sensitive electronic equipment inside. And I was there to hear him say it.
I was also around when we were told the company would receive half the revenues from the movie, but we weren't told the definition of revenues. It seems revenues were whatever was left after top secret, Ray, and Rich paid themselves. Nothing seemed to be left.
That's not a liberal definition of a scam. It's a classic definition of one.
I think over the years there has been more than enough evidence presented here that this company has scammed its investors. New Wheel technology? Movie revenues? A prototypes shown at the investor's meeting years ago? Delivering on the promise? Even if by some wild chance they did have a product now, investors who believed Ray, John, Rick, and the boys and bought shares in this company when it was $11 a share (or do you remember "it will never hit $6" again") were scammed.
My opinion. But one supported my history.
But I'm sure everything will turn around... soooon.
And if this company has a viable product then nothing said on this board will keep it down. So don't fret over what is said. On the other hand, if you're just trying to ride the next pump. Then shame on you. Or is it, there is not room left in America for shame.
Or instead of a housewife watching a soap, why not her husband guzzling beer and watching his cherished team lose, and blaming it on the refs. But then if we were all sensible and calm and wise and if we took all the drama out of it, what would you have? Wisedom applied is overrated.
I remember the $400 a share figure. And I remember Rich telling me in Dallas that $30 a share would be a dissapointment.
And I post here less that IOWN does. But what can I say. I just like reading you guys.
Cobra,
If you don't see the irony in your post where you are suggesting Excel is a liberal, then it would be a waste of time to try to explain it to you.
Really Ernie,
I would think an act of desperation would lie in the suggestion that anyone here is a paid by shorters. Look, just the fact (and I mean fact) that Rich and Ray were paid huge bonuses for the movie and the company got nothing, just that one fact, is enough to say these guys are less than honorable. We put up the money, they made a movie and paid themselves, and we got nothing. And you and I both know that's just one of those deceptions you were referring to.
It could be that many of the "bashers" here are simply here to have their say, and see how the story ends.
One thing that seems to be a constant though, is that most of the bashers address the company's mismanagments, etc. While many of the so called optimist simply attack the bashers. At least that's the way I read it. But then I do have a bias.
I believed Tom Cooper and the gang when they said they would have a product within a year (several years ago), and I lost a good deal of money on that move. My bad. And I take what responsibility belongs to me for that decision. But that doesn't relieve Tom, Ray, Rich, Brad, and the gang of their responsibility.
Fact or opinion.
Did I meet Ray at the San Diego stock holders meetings a few years ago or did I meet a guy who claimed he was Ray. Did he tell us they were hoping to fund the development of the technology with revenues from the movie "Step into Liquid" or did I only dream that up. And did the guy claiming to be Ray tell us they had a prototype on display, but becaue of the delicate electronics involved we weren't to touch it, or is that just a story some us made up because we want to ruin someone's chances at having a dream come true. Do we really wake up every morning trying to figure a way to slander the company and spoil people's chances at early retirement, do we walk along the beach in white flanner trousers, or are we a group of people who have seen the sunlight and have returned to the cave to tell those still bound and staring at the shadows on the wall about the sun.
If you ever find that person, let me know. I will help you.
We all want the same thing right? To see da boys in jail? Right?
To be up 1000% in less than week in any meaningful way, you would have had to sell. And for those who bought at the low and sold in the .20s, you have my congratulations.
I'm sitting here remembering the San Diego meeting, when I talked to Ray and Tom Cooper and Rick personally. I remember Ray telling us not to touch the prototype they had on display. I also remember him talking about movie revenues funding the development of whatever we were calling the tech in those days. I remember Tom Cooper talking about delivering on the promise, and Brad talking about rolling thunder. And I remember Ray and Rick getting huge bonuses for the movie, but we didn't get a thing. Nada. All top secret.
And I sold at a loss. And I've moved on. Made the money back, then lost most of it, and made it back again. In the meantime I'm keeping my day job.
I enjoy reading you guys, mainly because I feel I know most of you. Some of you I do know. That's the only reason I hang around. I hope you all get rich. But more than that, I hope you all live interesting lives. And I still think Ray is a carnival hustler. A slick one, and a likeable one, but aren't they all.
I sold my last 825 shares yesterday at .20. It was more than I ever hoped I would get for it. I hope you guys get rich off this stock, but I don't believe it will happen. If it does, good for you. But I'm still using my sale from 2004 as a write off.
That sounds good, but the reflexive third person would be "themselves" I think. At least if I were to give a lecture on the subject, something I don't think I would ever do, I believe that's what I would say. But I agree, it isn't the editorial "we" or even as one of my professors would say the "papal we." Grammatically, "we" is the first person plural personal pronound in the subjective case. I think mothers talk to their children that way, as in "what do we have in our mouth, Johnny" when she is probing the cheeks of her young son looking for the pill bug he tossed in there. I always assumed when the dental hygenist was talking to me in the first person plural, she was flirting with me.
Jeff, You and I both have a hard time understanding that a person could openly lie to us just to separate us from our money. That's because you are basically honest, and you assume the best in people. And perhaps Rich wasn't openly lying to us in Dallas. But then that all gets down to how one uses words. Still, the revenues from the film, what there were, did find their way into Ray's and Rich's pockets, while none of them made it to the development of the technology which Tom Cooper clearly told us "works." Of course that all depends on what he meant by "the technology works." And when he told me if he didn't believe in the company who wouldn't be there, and then he left, was he saying he didn't believe in the company. He didn't say that. He said he was leaving for personal reasons.
And those of us who want to believe in the best of people simply bought more stock.
I think it's dark. I think we were a little too eager to believe in what comman sense should have told us was a scam.
Start with I can't spell revenue.
The dialogue I would like to see on this board isn't whether or not the company is a sham, but why aren't some of these guys heading for prison. Did they are did they not break any laws for fraud, etc? Start with the movie revinues. Start with all the partnerships that never materialized. Start with the prototype shown at the San Deigo stock holder's meeting that was simply and untoucable box. (What if I had grabbed that box and opened it?) Start with New Wheel technology and the company claiming it was making adjustments to it, when in fact it had already discarded it and was simply looking for a new idea to sell. Start with the paid pumpers posing as investors at the regional meetings they held. Start anywhere.
Pulp Fiction not Fatal Attraction. Also diner.