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Do you really think there are any details in the deal?
In any case, any 'details' released to the public is likely to be wildly optimistic and unrealistic, like we have seen in the past.
I mean, they couldn't stop the verbal diarrhea with the $480 million 'China Deal'. They even announced, not one, but two 5 star hotels that was going to be built etc. What on earth two 5 star hotels have anything to to with producing flying cars beats me, but they announced it...
Moller won't go the Electric route. According to him his rotary engines are the key. He even published a 1 page 'white paper' about how silly electric VTOL aircraft are. They have mentioned 'hybrid', though, but it is just words in case any 'green' investors are paying attention.
I apologize. Only fans are allowed to be condescending towards non-fans. So sorry bud. I forgot.
I thought putting the facts out there to help potential investors make up their minds are 'sticking to talking to this stock'.
Many of my posts that are deleted highlights Moller's lies and deceit. Not all of their missteps can be explained away and be blamed on someone else.
Do you even have the Shareholder Meeting presentations they published the last decade? Did ANY of you fans EVER ask Moller "What happened to...(insert whatever you want)". No, no you don't. Why not?
No, you leave the questions to be asked by Moller's critics and the you see the mere asking of questions as an attack on Moller.
All these "provisional orders for engines" Moller constantly talks about, did you guys EVER ask who these engines are supposedly wanted by? No, no you didn't. Why not?
Did any of you EVER ask "What happened to Singapore Technologies". No, no you didn't. Why not?
Anybody ask for an update on PCS? Last we heard of PCS was when David ask people not to make fun of them on the FM blog.
ANY if you ever ask about updates on their ongoing yearly goal of "Working with the FAA to...blah,blah,blah". Any of you even ask WHO they are working with at the FAA? No you didn't. Why not?
ANY of you ever ask about the 2016 "Business opportunity" with "Jon Feinstein". It's right there in their 2016 SH meeting presentation. No, no you didn't. Why not?
I think the questions are not asked, because the fans don't want to face the truth. Or, to quote "A few good men." You can't handle the truth.
Do you guys even care about this company or where you just betting this stock would be the next IBM of Apple?
I have 20 years experience in business management. I have experience in starting up factories and production lines. I don't work in software or fast food. I work in engineering. Factories. Production lines. Machines. Engines. Oil. Metal. I am the same type of business as Freedom Motors would be in. I'm telling you today. FM and Moller are years from producing engines in a facility. Years. Product wise. How they will finance it, I have no idea, but the doors opening for them are the wrong ones. I suppose the correct doors are being knocked on, but they remain closed. They would.
And the whole 'bet Moller's future on FM's success thing' is the corner they painted themselves into. No-one else can be blamed.Not even the junior lawyer at the SEC that is blamed for all of Moller's problems.
And you know what? That bet of theirs puts a Skycar in the air in decades only.
Dr Paul Moller doesn't have decades.
One thing I agree on with you, Randy, is that these electric aircraft may not be successful. I am not as critical of it as you, but I am not invested in their competition on the other hand. The thing is, eVTOL is a thing now. If they fail, then the last nail is in the coffin for flying cars. If eVTOL fails, then it will be generations before flying cars are attempted again. Moller needed to become successful in this craze or he is going to miss the bus.
Laughable. I do not need to attack shareholders, but I do see how pointing out certain facts to some shareholders can be seen as an attack depending on where you are standing.
Laughable. I do not need to attack shareholders, but I do see how pointing out certain facts to some shareholders can be seen as an attack depending on where you are standing.
I expect this post to be deleted like so many of my others.
"they would have to get in line with the other hundreds of thousands who want motors"
This is exactly where you guys are making a huge mistake. Who are all these people who want engines? Who are they? Moller has been saying this for a decade or more. Do these people who wanted all these engines still want them? Did they just put their own businesses 'on hold' until Moller can get engines to them? Are they even still in business? Were they legit in the first place? LOI's and MOU's are not legally binding documents. Heck, a drunk fan could have sent Moller an e-mail saying he wants a million engines, and Moller would have grabbed his calculator knowing full well that the request is BS, but if backed into a corner he could have produced an e-mail. Or Moller could have lied about people wanting engines. He's been caught bending the facts to suit his needs in the past...Heck, he got into trouble with the SEC "for making unsubstantiated claims about the performance of the Skycar."
The business I worked for 5 years ago wanted a new reclamation plant from a local manufacturer, but the guy couldn't produce to our specs and we imported one. If the manufacturer goes back today and says "now I can make to your spec!", the response will be "sorry, we don't need it anymore...". See where I am getting at? You cant play the 'provisional orders for three million engines' card forever. I bet they haven't heard from most of those companies with all these engines needs in years.
These are the questions you guys need to ask, but don't. Stop blindly believing everything the company puts out there. Up until now nothing they have put out there has happened, yet you guys insist every time that 'this time is different'. To hope is one thing, but the type of hope some of the fans have is stretching it.
Another thing, and this is IMPORTANT. If a company has orders for 'hundreds of thousands' of engines, but lacks the funds to set up a production facility, Venture Capital companies will be falling over each other to get to the company. Somebody will fund the factory if huge sales numbers can be guaranteed. It's just good business.
But lets not get ahead of ourselves. Before talking production facility, lets talk PRODUCT. There is STILL NO EVIDENCE that Freedom Motors even has ONE engine that performs to the projected specs.
I could not have said it better myself.
People, like me, who also point these things out, are constantly told I am "living in the past", but just as these people who accuse me of living in the past cannot understand where I come from, so I cannot understand how they keep on saying 'but this time is different' every time the company announces something new.
Anyway, I did not start out as a critic of Moller's business practices. In fact, I was arguably his biggest fan at one stage of my life. I defended him when people said he was a crook. I got excited when he announced test flights and deals. I bought stock, but never because I thought it would make me rich. All I wanted was to own a very small part of what I thought was the future of aviation and transportation. I wrote letters to Dr Moller congratulating and supporting him. I bought (and still own) the toy models that was available at a time. But I got disappointed one too many times.
Actually, it was e-mail messages between me and Bruce Calkins which pushed me to the 'dark side'. Those e-mails made it clear to me that many of the promises Moller announced stopped with making the announcement and that no actual planning went into it and no intention was ever made to honor said promises. It was all done with the eye on baiting potential investors. And by investors I don't mean Joe Soap buying a couple of bucks worth of stock, I mean big guys willing to put up the cash to perhaps sponsor a test flight.
Actually, if I was living in the past I would have been here defending Moller like I did at one time...
I remember Jeff, myself and another guy fronting attacks on Moller just after I joined the Yahoo group. I became disillusioned first, then the other guy. I cannot remember his name. We were also both asked to leave the facebook group after the $480 million "China Deal" fell through. A potential deal that actually had me a little excited, but I used the spike in SP to offload my shares. Good move on my part there.
I take it back. It's not Jeff.
So, according to latest blog entry, Freedom Motors signed a partnership agreement with Alife. AGAIN. I'm sure "this time is different...".
It is sad. Those prototypes is all that Moller International had.
Yup.
They have said that Moller is an engineer and not a business man, as you say.
I say Moller is neither. He is no businessman and he is no engineer. He is a showman.
How else would he get people to part with their hard earned money for decades without showing any actual results? And people part with their money quite enthusiastically as they buy the dream without question.
Great showman.
Yeah, well, if someone else had taken over as captain on the Titanic after it had struck that iceberg the result would have been basically the same. Sure, there may have been some more survivors, but there may also have been less. The fact is, nobody could keep the ship from sinking.
**Sigh** If only I had a penny for every time someone said Moller should get in touch with some company...**sigh**
I suppose it is pretty hard to keep giving updates when nothing is happening...
When they do eventually give an update it will be as follows: "Sorry for being so quiet lately, but we have been extremely busy...", yet they will not have any deals, contracts or actual progress to report on, but more MOU's, 'provisional' orders or 'potential' partners that will all fade into nothingness...
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/112920307/jetpack-over-and-out--the-funding-has-run-dry
The "Moller Skycar of New Zealand" is done for. At least this company can face the facts. Here is a few facts about the Martin Jetpack that makes me wonder about Moller:
- It got a China deal when Moller found it impossible
- It ran on a rotary engine, and here is the BIG thing. The engine had to be overhauled EVERY TEN HOURS.(This is a contributing factor to its downfall...)
I was a follower of the Martin Jetpack just as I am of Moller. Some of the similarities are uncanny, but at least Martin got to demonstrate its product in front of the public, with a pilot, no tether in site, something Moller could only dream of...
The only real interest in Freedom Motors is from fanboys. Moller International and Freedom Motors cannot hide it's past thanks to the Internet. Serious investors do a little thing called 'due diligence'. Doing your due diligence on either of these companies will see red flags going up all over the show.
It is because of this that the companies that are always named when Moller talks about potential partners or investors are totally unknown and seem equally shady. Both sides of the partnership or investment are grasping at straws, trying to look credible by having a 'name' to be associated with.
I mean, this testing in Canada thing basically comes down to 'they are not picking up the phone, thus we cannot give you an update'. That is not how credible businesses work.
At the end of the day it all comes down to demonstrating a piece of equipment, any piece of equipment, that works AS PROMISED. They can't even do that.
Getting answers with no BS is an impossibility. With no BS they will not get a toenail in the door for serious funding. They still tout the age old story of "Letter's of intent" for I don't know how many million engines every now and then. All I say is that those 'companies' and individuals who issued those letters of intent years ago have moved on. In 2010 I really wanted a certain ultralight aircraft that was being developed. If they come to me now and say "were ready, still want one?", the answer will be 'NO', because my situation changed and I found something better in the mean time...
My real question is, are these guys stupid enough to believe their own BS and, if so, they are in bigger trouble than I thought.
I really hope he is gone for good, but it is too soon to celebrate...
Nobody going to mention anything about the Investment Opportunity blog post? Cheese and Sprinkles! In the past fanboys heads could be heard exploding all over following a post like that...
David did reply to a post on one of the platforms (probably made by you), that it would be stupid if FM started paying the 'percentage' to MI at the time FM starts selling engines. I have also been saying it for a long time.
If FM starts selling engines (which they won't) and they give MI a percentage of the profit, they will go out of business very quickly. A company that just starts producing needs to plough as much money as possible back into the business in order to be sustainable and to grow.
I am wasting my time. Fanboys have about as much business sense as a grape and only hear what they want to hear. Funny how, when even David says something that fanboys don't want to hear, they can forget it, but if a company exec says 'something like this usually takes x amount of time', the fanboys will grab their calculators and cast a date in stone.
You can't say not much is happening,something will, because "this time is different".
Yup. It's Jeff. Definitely.
You must remember that India and Pakistan had a little armed standoff recently. I'm pretty sure that will be their go-to excuse. Like regime change in China, the dang lawyers with the FM IPO and the lack of Porta-potty's and hot dog stands with the test flight.
I wonder how a job interview at MI and FM is conducted? They are pretty good at getting people on board that fits right into the company culture. Look, it is pretty easy to over-promise and under-deliver (not deliver at all in this case), but to do it so consistently and so publicly without even blushing is an art.
To promise something publicly and know in your heart of hearts that it is complete and utter BS is something politicians do on a daily basis, but business execs who practice this normally don't last long. Except at Moller. Here you get promoted for doing it good.
It does, doesn't it? But to be fair, FM hasn't had a 'porta-pottie event' yet...although...Fanboys believe that the month of October has some significance as they interpreted the company's 'projection' of how long decisions on funding takes as a date at which it WILL occur...that's fanboy reasoning for you...
Nope, just a sleezy pumper.
We've had this before. Maybe you didn't see my reply because of the spammer that just won't go away.
You say "sour grapes mindset have blinded" me, well, I say your unwavering faith in Paul Moller has blinded you and all the other fanboys. I cannot understand how you can believe in them without doubt, yet they let you down time and time and time again. And when you are let down, you believe the excuses (like your IPO lawyer and China 'explanation') without question.
I said again. I have no sour grapes. This company didn't make me lose anything (like what will eventually happen to your investment) and there are about 100 people developing flying cars, so my dream will come true.
But one thing I am not is blind. I have been following this company long enough to be able to read the signs, to know the signs. And the signs are there. No VC company is going to want to touch Freedom Motors. Why? 1) Because of the history. And 2) Because they have no product. And that is exactly why they are associated with these 'Funding for positive change' kooks and such.
Go back to the shareholder meeting minutes. Look at their 'planned activities' for both companies every year. Did any of those happen? No. Not one of the funding opportunities, business opportunities, planned engines to be built ever happened!
But wait! I know! I Know! "This time is different".
That is what you are going to say... You know what? That is what you fanboys said in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018. Or here is one also thrown around "with David on board...". Remember a young guy named Zack Rabin? Remember how you fans worshipped him? How you guys believed he was going to save the companies? Remember how the fanboys said "This time is different, because we have Zack"? Remember? Probably not. Fanboys conveniently forget the previous 'next big thing' when it inevitably fails...Now you fanboys never even mention Zack in a post.
As I did with Jeff countless times, let us make a deal. January 2020 we have a conversation again. If FM achieved anything real, anything concrete (LOI's, MOU's & IOU's are not concrete) I will eat humble pie, but if, in January 2020, the state of things are still what it is today, then you eat some humble pie...
Yes, David does appear intelligent, one of the very few Moller supporters that actually does. Interesting theory on the crowdfunding campaign. Would not surprise me.
I'm willing to bet that by Oct 2019 there will be no VC money. Heck, I willing to bet by Oct 2020 there will be no VC money...Or ever actually.
You keep mentioning this. Millions and millions of people have lose money due to bad decision making all the time. Just because he loaned them 250k, doesn't mean pending success. David also thought a Moller ICO would be a great idea. What happened there? Wait, I know...poof!!!!
Fanboys grasping at straws....
The Fanboy that is trying to get out may not be completely done with Moller. He posted in the 18th of Feb that the Filipino dancer who has built and flown (manned and un-tethered) his own eVtol should contact FM for "roto power" engines...So it looks like said fanboy is still waving his pom-poms, but is a bit teed off at the fact that the SP is not through the roof yet as so, so many fanboys believed it would by now. Heck, both Moller and Jeff projected that...especially Jeff who repeatedly said "never argue with a millionaire"...
Maybe there will be a bump in SP when something happens at FM, but the bumps because of 'news' gets smaller and smaller with each 'news' event.
I think a lot of shareholders know this and will use a bump in SP to cut their losses and abandon ship. Anybody with a brain knows this company is not going anywhere. If they get money, they will have to start from scratch. The company has nothing of value. Nothing. No engines. No flight software. No or outdated production equipment. It is a publicly traded company that owns a couple of old fiberglass mock-ups. Film props. At most, and I mean at most, they could put engines (that still needs to be developed) in the M400 that flopped up and down in front of shareholders in 2003 and re-create that event. That craft will not be able to achieve forward aerodynamic flight, though...so a hover again will be the only achievement and seeing that kids are flying around in home-built drones these days, such a flight will not impress the public or press.
But they won't get there. FM will run on talk,talk,talk for some time to come like MI did for decades. Nothing will ever be achieved.
"We need FM to be successful to create the tech that MI needs." - David C Sastry, 27/02/2019 - Moller Skycar Facebook Group.
"CREATE THE TECH"...
If Fanboys still believe that Moller just needs money to slap together a Flying Car from their existing tech, then this quote should help clear up. Unfortunately, like I said before, Moller International has a special kind of shareholder/fan. No amount of facts will sway them from their beliefs. I wonder how many of them are Flat Earthers and Moon Landing deniers?
I also noticed on the Facebook Group that one of Moller's most staunch supporters/believers is trying to 'get out' and sell his stock. He was also one of the most vocal "Maybe Moller should get in touch with [Elon Musk] [Larry Page][Boeing][Airbus][Bell][etc]" in the belief that Moller actually had technology on hand that these people would need...
I love it when people 's eyes finally go open...Wonder if that happened to Jeff? Or if Jeff is the active pumper on this page?
Anyway...the Fanboy pool is shrinking...if I think of the amount of fanboys on the facebook page waving pom-poms when I was asked to leave and the few that are waving now...
It is exactly what this person is. I'm trying to understand why. Is he trying to pump so he can offload his own shares, or is he paid to do it?
Randy, I am not the one that is "blinded". And it is "sour grapes" by the way. And I'll say it again, I am not angry at the company. I didn't lose anything because of Moller. Broke even on shares and the money I donated on the various crowdfunding campaigns was just that. Donations.
As for David's loan...well, people lose money every single day. People take risks with their money every single day and many lose. Heck, I have lost a great deal of money myself by buying a struggling Yoghurt factory 12 years ago and thinking I could turn it around only to have it go into liquidation some months later. Ended up with my life savings wiped out and sitting in a mountain of debt. I see it as school fees.
Like I said, I am not the one that is blinded. Any "potential investor" that has some experience will do their due diligence. And unfortunately that will bring up many red lights. Why do you thing Moller and his companies have not been able to secure deep pocketed investors? Let me take a guess..."This time is different.". Like it always is...
Actually I am wasting my breath. Moller and his fans live on hope, trust and pixy dust. Real world business practices and norms do not apply. It is most apparent on the Facebook fanpage that the participating fans have no business sense at all.
This reads exactly like any other piece of PR these companies have sent out these past few decades. Always the following phrases, not matter what company suit says them:
"explore opportunities" (forever exploring. Never discovering)
"finding strategic partners" (trying to, not getting them)
"Signing MOU's" (Not signing contracts, never contracts, MOU's are rubbish non legally binding documents not worth the paper they are printed on)
"These are exciting times" (Just like all the other times. Especially the $480 million China deal that went - POOOF!)
"Potential partners" (As opposed to just partners)
"Although we did not come back with investment" (As if that was ever going to happen)
"There was a lot of interest for Freedom Motors and their products" (Go back in shareholder meetings for 10 years. This is a constant claim, with no proof backing up said claim)
" I truly believe that with this experience we can attract good investors in the next 90 days." (Ahhh, the good old projection. I am willing to bet good money that by mid April there will be no investment from India)
This blog update may as well have been written by Paul Moller.
By the end of this year there will be no engine, no deals, no partners, no investors, no investments. As usual.
Facts!?!?!? What Facts???? You state delusional opinions!!! You are trying to pump this stock. That is all. And your attempts are futile. The only facts are this:
- Moller International is DORMANT. As per management.
- Moller International's success is dependent on the success of Freedom
Motors. As per Management.
- Freedom Motors is still tinkering and testing and trying to secure
investment to start functioning as a real business.
- Moller International and Freedom Motors has a history of failed
promises. A very, very long history.
pumper
disgusting
Thanks Moller fans...today I needed a laugh. All I had to do was pop over to the Facebook Fan page. I just love it when one of you Brainiacs post a video or photo of an e-vtol and 'suggest' they contact freedom motors for some rotary engines...It really gets me laughing. Thanks Brainiacs.
BTW. Even IF some Flying Car developer contacts Moller, there is a slight problem...Freedom Motors doesn't have any engines to sell to these people...
But please, don't catch a wake-up. I enjoy the laughs...